March vs. Madrigal vs. Minuet

[Sabaron]

I have been levelling Bard, and I'm at 62 now (teetering on Minuet IV). This argument has been coming up a lot lately and I wanted to get a sample of opinions on it.

Basically, we're talking these songs:

Blade Madrigal: 28 + 4 (instrument) = 32 Accuracy = 16% Hit Rate
Advancing March: +9% Haste with Faerie Piccolo
Victory March: +11% Haste with Faerie Piccolo
Valor Minuet III: 48 + 5 (instrument) = 53 Attack

Now take the following scenarios:

You are in a level 75 Dual Bard Meripo with a NIN Tank. Which four songs do you want on the melees?

For some reason, parties are choosing this foursome:

Blade Madrigal, Minuet IV, Victory March, Advancing March

instead of

Blade Madrigal, Minuet IV, Minuet III, Victory March

which boils down to:

Minuet III vs. Advancing March

Which is better?

+55 Attack or +9% Haste?

My damage calculator tells me that +55 Attack is equivalent to 0% - 27% damage boost versus a mob whose level is 8-10 levels higher than the melees' levels which, if it's an even distribution, is roughly 13.5% higher damage output. Versus anything less than 8 levels above the melees, the low-end rises making it better overall. Therefore the 9% Haste is less effective on mob kills.

The only thing that the 9% haste does that's good for the front-line is make shadows come back 9% quicker, but with Minuet III, I'm killing the mob 4.5% faster, possibly increasing chain. Unless your tank was getting flattened and your healer was running down on MP wouldn't you want the 4.5% death speed more than the 9% shadow recast?

--Now the other argument seems retarded to me.
Some people advocate this combination:

Minuet IV, Minuet III, Victory March, Advancing March

versus my preference same as above boils down to:

Advancing March vs. Blade Madrigal vs. Minuet III

So now, what they're saying is that 9% Haste is better than 16% Hit rate. The death efficiency is 7% better with Blade Madrigal than with Advancing March, and the Minuet III is 2.5% less effective than the 16% hit rate. Why would someone want this combination instead of the one I'm advocating?

[Olorin401]

Not only is the second March better, the melees know it.

Regardless, I usually ask a party I'm in which songs they want. If I'm the only BRD, they'll ask for Min + Mad. If there's a second BRD, one of us will cover double-March and the other will cover Min + Mad.

[Malacite]

Do you know how haste works? The more you have, the stronger the effect. Haste builds up exponentially as opposed to attack and accuracy which are linear.

Simply the put, if the melee already have haste gear, then they're going to want that 20% extra haste to get ever so close to the coveted 50% and above mark. Now granted, even with gear and double march the most anyone will manage to hit is 45% without other forms of haste (Haste Spell, Hasso, etc) but it's still well worth it.

At 50% Haste your attack rounds happen twice as often and at 66% it's three times as often. Very few jobs can even dream to get that high never mind your average player, but even if you can't hit the 50% mark if you can at least get close you're going to swinging much faster.

That's well worth it over a 16% accuracy boost. Of course this is all situational too, since if you're fighting high evasion mobs like Mamool Ja THF or NIN then yes, you'd have to be stupid to cast the haste over accuracy but in most cases the haste wins.

[Callisto]

Depends on what I'm fighting and what the DDs are wearing/eating. If I'm on Colibri, just double March most times since most DDs stopped using food vs. Colibri anymore(and the birds are so freaking squishy anyways), or 1 March/1 Mad/Min depending on what's defficient.

[hongman]

Dual Bard meripos are my favourite, and I normally see Min + Mad and 2 x March with Melee eating meat.

On Lurkers we change to Mad + Mad + March + March.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

First off, any and every melee out there can gear for accuracy simply and easily. There is gear and sushi out there to take care of melee accuracy. The amount of attack granted by stacked Minuets cannot be matched by ANY meat on the market and like accuracy gear, STR gear is not difficult or terribly expensive to obtain.

But additionally, you need to consider your party set-up. Some jobs are affected by Haste and others are not. Rangers and Corsairs that DoT with ranged weapons will draw no benefit from March songs at all and will be considerably ticked at you for ignoring thier needs, in the case where such jobs are present, it would be advisable to favor Minuet over everything else. RNGs don't need accuracy and they can't use haste aside from what Velocity Shot gives them.

That said, even with non-ranged melee, I'd never March x2, but use Victory March and Minuet IV. I don't care what anyone says, I don't care about the trends of ToA camps as those trends are subject to change - melees should take care of thier own damned accuracy. Don't look at me because you can't land all hits on Rampage, that's your problem. BRD is there to enhance, not compensate. I will never use madrigal when we're fighting something so brain-dead easy to hit.

[Olorin401]

Depends on what I'm fighting and what the DDs are wearing/eating. If I'm on Colibri, just double March most times since most DDs stopped using food vs. Colibri anymore(and the birds are so freaking squishy anyways), or 1 March/1 Mad/Min depending on what's defficient.
I don't know if you've noticed, but some of the people I've been in meripo with lately have been bringing 2-5 STACKS of food with them just so they don't have to worry about Snatch Morsel. Where do these ppl get this kinda money...
------------------------------------------
That said, even with non-ranged melee, I'd never March x2, but use Victory March and Minuet IV. I don't care what anyone says, I don't care about the trends of ToA camps as those trends are subject to change - melees should take care of thier own damned accuracy. Don't look at me because you can't land all hits on Rampage, that's your problem. BRD is there to enhance, not compensate. I will never use madrigal when we're fighting something so brain-dead easy to hit.
I started to think like this a while back, but decided it was more cordial to give people a choice between Double Min, March+Min and Min+Mad. It really varies from party to party.

[Malacite]

Most melee sub NIN these days too (even some SAM... makes me wanna cry) so the added haste is nice for utsusemi recast.

As said above, it's situational really. Depends heavily on the mobs targeted and what jobs the DD are. I still say unless it's a THF or NIN mob (possibly G Colibri) I'll take 20% haste over +32 accuracy any day. Like BBQ said, Accuracy is the DD's problem, not the BRD's.

[Icemage]

Valor Minuet IV, Valor Minuet III, Victory March, Advancing March.

Only if melees aren't using sushi and/or 2 handed weapons would I consider sacrificing one March for Blade Madrigal.


Icemage

[Callisto]

I think my next party is getting Pastoral/Abaude just because I now finally have enough macro space to macro all of my songs.

[Sabaron]

If I am doing 20/100 = 12 DPS and I haste myself to 25% I'm now doing 20/75 = 16DPS, and if I haste myself to 50% I'm doing 20/50 = 24DPS.....

which is an exponential progression rather than a linear one.... The math portion of my brain somehow equated 25% haste with a 25% increase in killing speed which is not the case: 16/12 = 1.3333 or a 33% increase. ;)

Let's just call me duh on that, and we'll chalk it up to the fact that none of the people I've talked to actually understand this mechanic in a way that could defeat my (admittedly flawed) argument.

I see it now. The double March is better unless the DD's are RNG/COR mix.

So now tell my how a Valor Minuet III is better than a Blade Madrigal (provided melees can't eat or there is something preventing them from achieving accuracy cap).

[Spinnthrift]

Valor Minuet III isn't as good as a Blade Madrigal.

Reason for this is:
Take cheapest highish cap meat out there - Meat Mithkebobs. If you eat this, it gives you +5 str and 60 attack (in merit - if you're not getting capped attack you should delete your character at this point). So - at bare minimum, you should get +62 attack out of Meat over +55 Attack out of Minuet III.

If you then compare Sole Sushi to using Minuet III, you get the same +acc as with Blade Madrigal, but 5 less attack overall, and your party will cease to function much sooner as most players won't be burning through stack after stack of Sole Sushi.

Any Bard worth their salt knows this, and while 7 attack may not seem like a lot, it can make the difference between a low of 1xcRatio on pDif and a low of 1.2xcRatio - 0.5.

For example - on G Lolibri, that means you need 521+ attack to be at this point, considering that you'll net the same accuracy gains with Madrigal vs Sushi (ideally reaching the 95% acc cap), you've just pushed yourself closer to the ever beautiful melee attack cap: 772 on Colibri (this is without Dia btw).

Edit: Ok.. that's as a rule of thumb for what wins, however.. if your melees are good enough to hit a 90% acc rate without Madrigal/Sushi, then Min x2/March x2 wins, as you're able to push attack up enough on meripo to make a sizeable difference on your output, but - for the most part - your party won't be hitting that acc cap without either mad/sushi.

[Sabaron]

The reason I asked the question is because Icemage picked this:

Valor Minuet IV, Valor Minuet III, Victory March, Advancing March.

and I would daresay he is a Bard worth his salt.


If you then compare Sole Sushi to using Minuet III, you get the same +acc as with Blade Madrigal, but 5 less attack overall, and your party will cease to function much sooner as most players won't be burning through stack after stack of Sole Sushi.

Your comparison is totally flawed. This statement has no quantitative value. Why would you compare a Song effect to a Food, and further why are you comparing a Minuet (a +Attack song) with an Accuracy food?

Any Bard worth their salt knows this, and while 7 attack may not seem like a lot, it can make the difference between a low of 1xcRatio on pDif and a low of 1.2xcRatio - 0.5.

This contradicts your assertion that Blade Madrigal is better, and 7 attack is not a lot... I calculated the damage effect of pDIF of the song above (in the original post)--the maximum line damage bonus for 7 Attack differential above the mob's DEF is 3%, and where did you get 7 anyway--the only time I used 7 was in terms of a percentage difference between Haste and Madrigal which makes no sense when translated into an attack differential.

That's it... You're on drugz. I'm calling your mommy.

[TheGrandMom]

I never assume how well my pt is going to do. I get in the pt, use my usual setup for songs, and then after a few fights, adjust accordingly. Different mobs, different jobs, different outlooks from players, etc always affect what I do in a pt. The thing that irritates me the most is when you get in a pt and one person wants this set of songs, another wants a different set, and you feel you know what would work the best. I don't want to argue and I don't want to spend 15+ minutes while they all "discuss" it either. More often than not, I just go with whatever the pt wants. I'll suggest what I think is best but won't argue the point if they disagree.

[Spinnthrift]

The reason I asked the question is because Icemage picked this:



and I would daresay he is a Bard worth his salt.




Your comparison is totally flawed. This statement has no quantitative value. Why would you compare a Song effect to a Food, and further why are you comparing a Minuet (a +Attack song) with an Accuracy food?



This contradicts your assertion that Blade Madrigal is better, and 7 attack is not a lot... I calculated the damage effect of pDIF of the song above (in the original post)--the maximum line damage bonus for 7 Attack differential above the mob's DEF is 3%, and where did you get 7 anyway--the only time I used 7 was in terms of a percentage difference between Haste and Madrigal which makes no sense when translated into an attack differential.

That's it... You're on drugz. I'm calling your mommy.

Ok.. let's start:

Why compare using an attack song and using acc food, and an accuracy song and using meat?

Well - generally, from my experience in parties - players take one or the other to net a solid accuracy rate, they don't take both, it's overkill on accuracy at the cost of attack.

So, with double min, you eat sushi... to be able not to whiff.

Now - you can say I'm on drugs, and threaten to call my mother.. but, I'll explain why I wrote what I did and justify it further. Yes - you were correct with the % difference on the effects of attack, what you didn't take account of was however, the range of numbers pDif generates, which is basically where +/-1 attack can actually put you in a different range. I agree exactly with what you wrote, but you missed something (little details).

Now, let's look at our kind meripo mob, the lolibri, this mob has a defense of 336, nice and low. Now, if a 75 can push their attack past 520.8, then the lower range for the pDif values (as we know there's a +/- value) which is calculated as:

Defense (336) x 1.55 (level correction plus lowest point for the minimum value of midrange pDif) = 520.8.

Now, I know in my personal tp'ing setup, with Min/Mad - I reach 523 (while buffed), so I can put in Haste/Str in other slots to increase overall damage. Now, if I had Min/Min and had to use Sushi, I'm at 516, which while only a tiny difference on paper in pDif, the end minimums at 1.26 and 1.04 respectively (per setup) as a multiplier. Not really a huge deal, but it adds up, and I believe you were asking for the best. Situationally, each is useful, but - overall, more players will be around the level.

And again, I'll explain where you get the 7 difference from.

Assuming Meat Mithkebobs on Lolibri, as I'm going to wager you're not using Arrabiato and neither are your melees, that gives you (again), 60 attack (capped at 272 attack) and +5 Str.

Now.. let's simplify. +60 attack and +5 str. With me there chief?

So, given a worst case scenario of said melee using a one handed weapon, then str will only give a 2:1 ratio on str:attack, giving... tada - 62(.5)

With me there so far?

Now.. you've said you can only get 53 attack from Minuet III, and assuming now you're using Sushi to get accuracy now, that gives you +5 str from sole sushi.

So, 53 + 2.5 = 55.5

Wait for it.. and I realise I'm being patronizing now, but you did threaten to call my mother, and I really do not like my dear old mum that much... :rofl:

62.5 - 55.5 =?

Seven.

Now, even with full merits on Minuet, you're still a single point (in my case), under the key number, if I'm using Sushi.

Now, I might be alone in being so anal about working out the exact numbers that you can call me OCD, that's a fair statement. And, for the most part, that 3% difference won't affect the majority of your hits either, but - for the small part that it does... there we go. ^^

You're right, for the most part, 7 attack is trivial, but it's also not sometimes. Hell, 1 attack can be trivial or not. It's all situational. Like most things in this game. ;)

[Sabaron]

Ok.. Let's start with 7 because it's the least important thing... It doesn't matter where you got it because you're comparing a food to a song... I can have both.

You said...

Valor Minuet III isn't as good as a Blade Madrigal.

Nothing that you have said so far supports this...

I've since found out why anyway. A Greater Colibri's level is 81-82 which means that in meripo, the level difference is 6-7, having a lower level differerence like that raises the "low-end" damage boosts of +Attack. Therefore, the value of the +55 attack bonus increases above 16% making Minuet III better than Madrigal which is always +16%.

Blade Madrigal is situational in that it is better than +Attack if you are fighting High-level High-defense mobs (like Troll Paladins) wherein the +Attack bonus is pushed below 16% average (e.g. your Attack is less than or equal to their defense and their level is more than 7 above yours).

Oh, and I noticed that you gave a specific number for a Colibri's Defense value. Where did you get that? Is there a database somewhere?

[Spinnthrift]

Both in posts from Divisortheory on BG, and verified by myself to check the exact defense ratio, as I've been going through perfect setups on various mobs for our HNMLS so that we can streamline gear.

This is the link from Divisortheory: http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16214

In my OCD'ness I've made huge posts on my LS forums exactly on how things work (mostly for Thf's trying to force up TA damage on Fafnir/et all.. but that's another story).

I've got Ultima in an hour, but I'll do it straight afterwards - give myself some odd gearings and hopefully be able to prove it to you. Then, if you'll believe that, I'll do the same for the Assassin's Legs/Andravanauts post on the Thf side of things.

I realise my tone isn't always shiny, but I don't say stuff deliberately that's wrong. So sorry if I upset you.

If you want to test it yourself on Colibri, it's fairly easy to as well, just use gear swaps and /check.

Remember:

/check will display the ratio without taking into account Level Correction function
If AttackDefenseRatio < 1.00 → High Defense
If AttackDefenseRatio > 1.25 → Low Defense
Other ratio range → No defense info displayed

P.S. I'm going to assume that sig is out of date for your job levels. As a melee, you should know that Madrigal + Sushi is relatively pointless if you're using a decent setup. Not that it'll change your mind much.

[Sabaron]

Both in posts from Divisortheory on BG, and verified by myself to check the exact defense ratio, as I've been going through perfect setups on various mobs for our HNMLS so that we can streamline gear.

This is the link from Divisortheory: http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16214

In my OCD'ness I've made huge posts on my LS forums exactly on how things work (mostly for Thf's trying to force up TA damage on Fafnir/et all.. but that's another story).

I've got Ultima in an hour, but I'll do it straight afterwards - give myself some odd gearings and hopefully be able to prove it to you. Then, if you'll believe that, I'll do the same for the Assassin's Legs/Andravanauts post on the Thf side of things.

I realise my tone isn't always shiny, but I don't say stuff deliberately that's wrong. So sorry if I upset you.

If you want to test it yourself on Colibri, it's fairly easy to as well, just use gear swaps and /check.

Remember:

/check will display the ratio without taking into account Level Correction function
If AttackDefenseRatio < 1.00 → High Defense
If AttackDefenseRatio > 1.25 → Low Defense
Other ratio range → No defense info displayed

P.S. I'm going to assume that sig is out of date for your job levels. As a melee, you should know that Madrigal + Sushi is relatively pointless if you're using a decent setup. Not that it'll change your mind much.

Thanks for the link.

My ADR is useless as both RDM and BRD--I have to rely on the melees for that type of information..

The only difference in my sig is the Bard level and it's currently 62--it's close enough (I'm not doing BRD Meripo yet, I'm just looking at maximization).

Madrigal + Sushi is only pointless if the Sushi brings your Hit Rate so close to 95% that the a portion of the Madrigal is lessened by virtue of the 95% cap. Again, I have to rely on the melees for information on their Accuracy.

The numbers hold up, and this is the reason I said "situational". I still don't know why you're OP said that Madrigal > Minuet... I'm assuming it's a typo now because you clearly don't believe that.

[Spinnthrift]

Damn.. my post got erased by some silly backspacing at the wrong moment, so I'll repost the simple version (Ultima's been delayed right now :angry: ).

Basically... what's ideal for melee (from a heavy melee standpoint)

If I have Min/Mad/March x2 + Sushi, I lose 60 attack as a minimum.
If I have Min x2/March x2 + Sushi (to retain accuracy on high eva mobs), I lose a few attack, usually enough to lower my minimums below what's ideal.
If I have Min x2/Mad/March + Meat, I lose haste. That's bad for the reasons you posted before.
If I have Min/Mad/March x2 + Meat, this is about as perfect as I can get, with the attack bonus from food being better than Min III, but with Madrigal to give me enough acc to comfortably eat Meat.

March x2, isn't in question. Given the second Bard.. it's a must have.

Then it becomes a question of what's better, Min/Min or Min/Mad. In terms of attack, you can get a few more attack, while retaining enough acc to keep a high % - with Min/Mad, which is why Min/Mad is better overall.. therefore making Blade Madrigal a better choice than Minuet III.

Not to mention, it's much more cost effective to eat stacks of cheap meat over stacks of sushi on the food eating ^%$&ery that is Colibri. Because to retain similar numbers, you have to eat sole sushi, while you can get slightly better results with meat mithkebobs. Knowing this, when you go to other merit mobs such as Mamool, you can get much better returns on Attack with the same setup, while still keeping your accuracy as high as needed.

It kinda changes with War's with Ridill, who may need more acc to retain that solid hit %, but for the normal folk without one.. if you have a Ridill or other very high end items, they change the rules somewhat.

[Malacite]

Who the hell eats Mithkabobs @75?

Courel Sub/Yellow Curry tyvm >.>

EDIT: My god do we need better meat foods... sushi isstill horribly broken by comparison.

Yellow Curry is only really good because of it's duration, but even then a stack of subs will beat it out for not much more. The Plus 1 subs are even better but ungodly expensive ><

All the really high capped foods have such crap attack multipliers as well that you freaking require a BRD to even justify using them. When's SE going to change this?! (off topic I apologize but god damn...)

[Spinnthrift]

On Colibri, it's often food of choice. Mamool's/Imps(Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass)/Trolls/Kindred/etc.. I'll eat better food. On things that eat my food, I'll take the best cheap option to keep my damage high without destroying my wallet.

[Sabaron]

Damn.. my post got erased by some silly backspacing at the wrong moment, so I'll repost the simple version (Ultima's been delayed right now :angry: ).

Basically... what's ideal for melee (from a heavy melee standpoint)

If I have Min/Mad/March x2 + Sushi, I lose 60 attack as a minimum.
If I have Min x2/March x2 + Sushi (to retain accuracy on high eva mobs), I lose a few attack, usually enough to lower my minimums below what's ideal.
If I have Min x2/Mad/March + Meat, I lose haste. That's bad for the reasons you posted before.
If I have Min/Mad/March x2 + Meat, this is about as perfect as I can get, with the attack bonus from food being better than Min III, but with Madrigal to give me enough acc to comfortably eat Meat.

March x2, isn't in question. Given the second Bard.. it's a must have.

Then it becomes a question of what's better, Min/Min or Min/Mad. In terms of attack, you can get a few more attack, while retaining enough acc to keep a high % - with Min/Mad, which is why Min/Mad is better overall.. therefore making Blade Madrigal a better choice than Minuet III.

Not to mention, it's much more cost effective to eat stacks of cheap meat over stacks of sushi on the food eating ^%$&ery that is Colibri. Because to retain similar numbers, you have to eat sole sushi, while you can get slightly better results with meat mithkebobs. Knowing this, when you go to other merit mobs such as Mamool, you can get much better returns on Attack with the same setup, while still keeping your accuracy as high as needed.

It kinda changes with War's with Ridill, who may need more acc to retain that solid hit %, but for the normal folk without one.. if you have a Ridill or other very high end items, they change the rules somewhat.


.....but Ridill doesn't do anything for Accuracy or Attack--it doesn't "change the rules" at all. Minuet III isn't "a few more attack" it's 55 attack which is very powerful unless you are approaching the 2.4 pDIF cap.

If my melees are geared to max their accuracy, it is likely that they can't cap attack and vice versa. Therefore if capping (in either sense) becomes an issue, then the song opposite the capped stat is the better. I don't get to tell the melees what to wear and eat--I just decide which songs to play.

Why is it necessary to mention what you're currently doing in game? Does that somehow add to this discussion, or are you using it as a tool to attempt to boost your credibility?

[Spinnthrift]

Go back over your first few responses.. they all say the same thing as I did, except that I explained why to eat meat, and showed where the caps were at.

As Icemage put it, if they're eating meat, he'd consider dropping one Min for March. I've just explained why eating meat nets a greater return than Minuet III.

As for your Ridill comment, it shows what you don't know. It's a B ranked weapon on Warrior, which the guy in my LS is adamant that he has to eat sushi to get close to the acc he can with an Axe. I'm a Thf (albeit Blm mostly atm), with smatterings of Rdm and Nin as and where it's needed. Why would I want/need a Ridill other than for the sake of having one?

How about a nice roundup.

If you're geared for Acc/Meat usage, to extend the duration while minimising the cost of a merit party - the choice is: Min/Mad/March x2, and the melee know it.

If using sushi, then they're going to need that second Minuet to make up for the attack they're losing, but Min III cannot reach the levels of even a Meat Mithkebob, whereas a decent Madrigal will often negate entirely the level correction in accuracy, same as sushi provides.

Have a nice night sunshine, it's 4am and I really should be asleep.

P.S. If you want the *HUGE* essay I've been writing on the topic of haste, and attack vs acc setups and how they work, PM me. I'll send you those and the rest, not that you'd believe that I could ever write anything of worth, even though I've been around long enough to learn from people who taught me well. ;)

P.P.S If I'm free, I'll do some quick and dirty testing tomorrow to show what happens with Assassins Culottes/Andravanauts, I'll post them, then you can go, I'm sorry, I was wrong. Night night, catch you soon. /waves.

[Icemage]

I'll explain my reasoning behind Minuet III vs. Blade Madrigal in as simple of terms as I can.

(1) Every good merit or XP party goes in assuming 2x Minuet or 1xMinuet 1xMarch as a baseline. I don't know of ANY melees outside of ones in a static party who will gear themselves to expect having any outside +Accuracy boosts. As such, most melees will set up gear/food to optimize for Accuracy. This makes Blade Madrigal of very limited usefulness unless you run into an especially hard IT++ enemy with high evasion (maybe a Mamool Ja Infiltrator).

(2) Even if there's ONE melee who breaks from the pack and doesn't optimize Accuracy, it's still a better move to sing Minuet/March or Minuet/Minuet for the rest of the group. If you're so lucky to have that one person be a 2-handed user, you can compromise and give them Uncanny Etude after the fact by using March/Minuet/Etude, or Minuet III/Minuet IV/Etude, in that order.

In a two bard situation, it's still no contest. If you're XPing against Colibri and melees are hesitant to use sushi, then that's probably the only time you'll think about using Madrigal, but Colibri are generally not very tough at level 75, so most decently geared melees at 75 don't need any extra help landing hits against them anyway, so really the application is limited to the lower level ones in the mid/late 60s. In every other case, Madrigal is overshadowed by March and Minuet.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

...P.S. If you want the *HUGE* essay I've been writing on the topic of haste, and attack vs acc setups and how they work, PM me. I'll send you those and the rest, not that you'd believe that I could ever write anything of worth, even though I've been around long enough to learn from people who taught me well. ;)

P.P.S If I'm free, I'll do some quick and dirty testing tomorrow to show what happens with Assassins Culottes/Andravanauts, I'll post them, then you can go, I'm sorry, I was wrong. Night night, catch you soon. /waves.

The problem is not necessarily that you don't know what you're talking about, but it's that you expect me to somehow be able to know the reasoning behind what you say without saying it. I did happen to miss that you used WAR specifically in your discussion of Ridill, but other than that--much of what you were saying is not easily decipherable. You assume that I know things that I, in fact, do not. I still maintain that the most confusing thing about your posts was that you started off with a very flat statement putting Madrigal over Minuet III and then, by your own arguments, went against your original premise--that sort of colored my attitude toward your posts.

I suppose this post didn't really resolve anything except to say that it's always based on the melee's gear and the target--which I guess I expected.

Basically, Spin is saying that against the Greater Colibri, which has low defense, most melees (who will be pushing 500+ Attack) will be able to hit (or get very close to) the 2.4 pDIF ceiling using a very cheap meat food (Mithkabobs) and just Minuet IV; therefore, versus Greater Colibri, in this situation the most efficient Meripo setup are a bunch of Attack-boosting melees and the Minuet IV, Blade Madrigal, March x 2 song set.

Icemage says that most melees gear for Accuracy, which is what i usually see--lots of Sushi, Optical Hats, Sniper's Rings, Peacock Charms, etc. and, therefore, these guys will be approaching their hit rate caps when dealing with the rather feeble mobs (such as Greater Colibri) in a Meripo, thus making Minuet III a more attractive choice than Madrigal because of the lower level difference and melee's predisposition toward accuracy.

Have I got it?

[Icemage]

Have I got it?
Pretty much.

Now, IF you're in a static party, and IF that party is set up for TP-burn style with two bards, yes, you can indeed drop Minuet III in favor of Blade Madrigal if you inform your melees ahead of time so they know they can de-emphasize ACC in favor of STR/ATK. I do not think this will work in a pickup party, or even a partial static where you are unsure about the gearing of your melees.

If there's only one bard, I would still go with Minuet IV + Victory March over any combination using Blade Madrigal unless you're going after the aforementioned Colibri, who are special in that they like to steal food effects (making sushi very unreliable/very expensive).


Icemage

[Malacite]

Depending on your job (DD I mean) it's often better to get the attack songs and eat sushi anyway.

Reason being that sushi is uncapped and adds a hell of a lot more accuracy than you can reasonably stack on with equipment, making the minuet more attractive. I'm aware that you can actually get more attack out of food than you can accuracy out of sushi despite sushi being uncapped, but it's rarely practical and in actuality, requires attack songs (See Bison Steak and Red Curry ><)

[Spinnthrift]

Couple of minor details.

Sabaron, wasn't trying to get to 2.4 pDif.. was trying to make sure that the melee could reach 1.25 cRatio, as that is the threshold where you get a marked jump in your absolute minimum damage. 2.0 cRatio (which gives 1.6~2.4 pDif) is ~656 attack with Dia III on a Colibri.

Secondly - I'm not sure about everyone gearing for acc/attack any more. I was pretty sure it was all about the haste, and has been that way for some time. We make sure our haste is as high as possible for meriting, then put in extra's as and when and where possible. At least it appears that way at 75.

Pre 75, when you don't have access to the same power of gear - Accuracy and Attack are kings, as I'm rediscovering while levelling up my low level Drg.

Sorry for confusing you with the Ridill.. what makes sense in my head, often doesn't translate to others. ^^