TP: Save it or Blow it?

[Sabaron]

I noticed in PT that Dancer's are conserving TP like it was gold, but that they're always sitting at 200+ TP and never seem to use it. It seems, to me, as rather wasteful to leave that 200 TP sitting there unused.

Therefore, in my poll question, I am hoping to get a response on how a DNC should use their TP. Should a DNC conserve 100 and blow it like a regular melee DD or should they keep it topped out and never WS (thus significantly decreasing their damage).

Remember, Dancer gets the good Dagger WSs that THF gets.

[Srxjo]

i don't see really no point in WS till you get dancing edge, but when you can use that WS use it if you are sure you wont need that TP and can build it back before you need it

[Eiyoko]

If bad comes to worse you may have to spam curing waltz as far as I know.

It's not a bad idea to WS in lower levels since dances don't use up entirely too much TP but caution is still a good thing~

Just my 2 gil.

[Jarre]

considering it takes 1 round of H2H if both connect to get 13 TP so you can cast drain samba one and 2 rounds to enable curing waltz downtime after using a weapon skill is nothing.

however if you are main heal then TP is better kept to keep aprty alive.

[Nymphadora]

Well, it's always good to be cautious abuot it, but if you have it ready and you know it'll help the pt, why not? Dancer is a melee job, not a mage job and I don't believe it was meant to be main healer. If you're in a good pt, I don't see anything wrong with throwing out a WS when needed.

[Lanih]

I'd say it depends entirely on the party and the situation (after DE, before that I'd save the TP). You'd want to stay on your toes if you're main healing though.

Learn to adapt, and your intuition will do the rest and solve questions like this for you. Like with every job, after you've played them long enough.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Seeing as TP is the heart of all Dancer's abilties, it seems detrimental to the performance of the dancer and the the party for the DNC to focus on damage dealing with weaponskills. If I saw a DNC pop one WS in the PT and they were the main healer, I'd likely be inclined to start looking for a replacement healer right away. Its bad enough some DNCs think they can tank with just Utsu: Ichi to back them.

This is a healing/enfeebling class, it is not a true melee job in the slightest. Until you have the means to pull TP out of the air with something like Reverse Flourish and/or Meditate, I don't think its adviseable to put any focus on weaponskills.

[Malacite]

Dagger WS suck ass anyway unless you're a THF...

[IfritnoItazura]

Dagger WS suck ass anyway unless you're a THF...
In my Dec. 3rd party with with a Dancer (Narelus; should be near Lv.66), s/he was getting 409.07 average (High/Low: 566/198) on Dancing Edge. Also had a Thief (Teechi) in party, and s/he was getting 468.92 average (High/Low: 723/205) on WS.

Had the parser log saved, so the numbers are not pulled out of the air or any "heard from a friend" type of nonsense.

Jaw dropping? Perhaps not. Useful? I'd think so, at least situationally. Certainly better WS damage than my mostly turtling PLD66's Swift Blade (209.74; 429/26).

[Zempten]

If you have 5 Finishing Moves stored up, then WS is acceptable 60+. Otherwise Cyclone and every other lower WS seems wasted. I'd rather throw a Curing Waltz 3 out.

[Sabaron]

So basically what you're saying is:

"If you're a DNC Main Healer, don't WS."
"If you're a DNC Backup Healer and you're 60+, you can WS."

Which is sort of the direction I was going. Before {Dancing Edge} there's nothing really spectacular besides a 200% {Cyclone} which you can't use if you're in proximity to other mobs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think its just important to keep in mind why a job is invited to PTs. Just because you're a support or healer type class that can melee doesn't mean DD suddenly becomes a priority for you. I know this all too well from COR that sometimes my DD capability just isn't needed and that I should find other functions to attend to in the PT.

Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should, something some RDMs have a hard time accepting.

[BurningPanther]

Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should, something some RDMs have a hard time accepting. Man, you just could NOT resist throwing that in there, could you?

Well then, I feel perfectly justified, as a RDM, in saying: "Just because I can main heal doesn't always mean I should, something the rest of the community has a hard time accepting."

[Taskmage]

Could we not derail this please?

[Aamalthea]

So...anyways...I'm 16 DNC/MNK right now, and, call me crazy but even with a whm main healing, in the Dunes I've saved the party at least a couple of times right now. I don't plan to ws unless I'm duo'ing with my BLU/WAR bf or the party is killing stuff too easy. I don't feel comfortable not having at least 150 tp to use for healing as necessary. I can only see me having to use Curing Waltz and other things a lot more often until I learn a good balance of what certain party types need/do together so, for now, I'm a TP hog ^^.

I also use H2H and I plan on checking out /SAM after a while to see if that changes my thinking.

[Sevv]

DNC Forums: The New Rdm Battleground?

I have seen dnc alot 60+ was permaing with a jp dnc like 5 days after the expansion and he was 60. He was just dd/support, but his ws were decent. Personally I think it will be a party to party and player to player decision.

[Malacite]

To RDMS: Shut up and wait patiently & quietly until SE reveals your new front line spells >_>


Now as for those numbers Ifrit, I'm highly suspicious of those WS numbers... sounds like a tard THF at work, as I just can not see a DNC out dmg a THF on dagger WS.

[Zempten]

I don't like the options of the poll. Personally, I would say the most important is to find a balance between the two options give (WS @ 100% & Store TP). It's important/beneficial to always do the most you you can with the job you play and I feel that applies to DNC's option of WSing along with their other options.

[Sabaron]

I don't like the options of the poll. Personally, I would say the most important is to find a balance between the two options give (WS @ 100% & Store TP). It's important/beneficial to always do the most you you can with the job you play and I feel that applies to DNC's option of WSing along with their other options.


That's really what the first option is intended to mean. I didn't mean "don't dance... WS!". I meant Dance as appropriate, but if you should happen to bank 100, blast it unless you need something. When my eyes see a DNC with 250 TP all the time, I say to myself... "Hmm, couldn't that TP have been used to cause 800 damage?"

[Nuriko]

It's just too bad DNC can't hold back TP on WS like under SAM's 2-hour ... then this discussion would be pointless, as DNC could do both in a way.

[Sabaron]

The not "having your cake and eating it too" thing is inherently part of Dancer's style. I noticed a good portion of the thread is focusing on low-level and main-healer stuff. Perhaps we can focus on 50+ and 60+ wherein the DNC becomes less desirable as a main healer because they can't cast Haste or Refresh. I realize they have solutions for both of these problems, but they're not as good as the solutions provided by say RDM, WHM, BRD, and COR.

What about after the Dancer gets Meditate and Reverse Flourish? At higher level, it is likely that the dancer will be with another healer type. What about the interplay between DNC and the existing HP Gurus: WHM, RDM, SMN, and BLU?

AND the things no one has mentioned....

Building Flourish (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Building_Flourish)

Wild Flourish (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wild_Flourish)

Both of these items indicate that at higher level, SE does in fact intend Dancer to unleash the deadly Dancing Edge and Evisceration WSs.

Anyone know how exactly a Wild Flourish "prepares" a target for skillchain?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Man, you just could NOT resist throwing that in there, could you?

Well then, I feel perfectly justified, as a RDM, in saying: "Just because I can main heal doesn't always mean I should, something the rest of the community has a hard time accepting."

Have fun seeking.

Anyway.

My point is - regarding dancer more specifically - your job exists and lacks refresh because you can get easy and ample amounts of TP. Guess what curing with TP means for mages? I means RDM, SMN and SCH don't have to be a cure bucket and you get to hit stuff.

The reason why I've been hyping /SAM is that it will, coupled with Reverse Flourish (1) let you pop off WS at 60+ if the situation allows and (2) scare up TP for curing and buffs as needed. You give up shadows and the ability to backup tank, sure, and you dont draw any benefit from Hasso and Seigan either, but you get TP and lots of it.

I've already seen DNCs sit on thier TP or WS in PTs and I'll tell you right now as a SCH, RDM or any mage that my MP does not appreciate that. When DNC is done right, everyone gets to have part of the cake in thier job.

[IfritnoItazura]

I'm highly suspicious of those WS numbers... sounds like a tard THF at work, as I just can not see a DNC out dmg a THF on dagger WS.
Where did I say DNC was out damaging THF? My post clearly indicated the THF's WS was out doing the DNC's by a significant margin. Yet, the DNC's WS's (when s/he used them) were quite decent.

I didn't check the THF's gear, but I remember thinking the dancer using pretty decent stuff (Peacock Amulet, and I think Rajas Ring, etc.). Even if you do believe the THF sucked, it doesn't change the fact that the DNC's WS was a lot stronger than mine (PLD), and can be used to contribute significant damage when needed.

Can't say if the majority of DNCs have a good set up for Dancing Edge, but it's obvious that Dancing Edge does not suck for the DNCs with the right gear.

[Solymir]

I voted don't ws, however, everything is situational. If you are fighting a mob that can potentially hurt everyone with an AoE I would definitely save all TP, if not make a judgement call on ws usage.

[Zempten]

That's really what the first option is intended to mean. I didn't mean "don't dance... WS!". I meant Dance as appropriate, but if you should happen to bank 100, blast it unless you need something. When my eyes see a DNC with 250 TP all the time, I say to myself... "Hmm, couldn't that TP have been used to cause 800 damage?"

Ah I see, then I'll choose #1.

Building Flourish and Wild Flourish seem like something DNCs can focus on if there is someone else main healing or you got TP to spare. They do look like fun and not something to rule out completely.

Oh Wild Flourish works sorta like a WS. For example, You do Wild Flourish and say someone else does a WS a SC can occur. Exact details on what Wild Flourish chains with are unknown atm but there are some reports over at KI & BG. So far from what they say it can work with . .

Wild Flourish -> Penta Thrust = Gravitation

Wild Flourish -> Guillotine = Induration

Wild Flourish -> Combo = Fusion
Wild Flourish -> Shoulder Tackle= Nothing
Wild Flourish -> Backhand Blow = Detonation
Wild Flourish -> Spining Attack = Liquafaction
Wild Flourish -> Raging Fist = Fusion

Wild Flourish -> Sidewinder = Fragmentation

Wild Flourish -> Sturmwind = Fragmentation

Wild Flourish -> Mercy Stroke = Nothing
Wild Flourish -> Shark bite = Nothing
Wild Flourish -> Evisceration = Transfiction
Wild Flourish -> Dancing Edge = Scission

Wild Flourish -> Rampage = Scission


Haven't tested these myself, so no guarentee

[Sabaron]

Ah I see, then I'll choose #1.

Building Flourish and Wild Flourish seem like something DNCs can focus on if there is someone else main healing or you got TP to spare. They do look like fun and not something to rule out completely.

Oh Wild Flourish works sorta like a WS. For example, You do Wild Flourish and say someone else does a WS a SC can occur. Exact details on what Wild Flourish chains with are unknown atm but there are some reports over at KI & BG. So far from what they say it can work with . .

Wild Flourish -> Penta Thrust = Gravitation

Wild Flourish -> Guillotine = Induration

Wild Flourish -> Combo = Fusion
Wild Flourish -> Shoulder Attack = Nothing
Wild Flourish -> Subtle Blow = Detonation
Wild Flourish -> Spining Attack = Liquafaction
Wild Flourish -> Raging Fist = Fusion

Wild Flourish -> Sidewinder = Fragmentation

Wild Flourish -> Sturmwind = Fragmentation

Wild Flourish -> Mercy Stroke = Nothing
Wild Flourish -> Shark bite = Nothing
Wild Flourish -> Evisceration = Transfiction
Wild Flourish -> Dancing Edge = Scission

Wild Flourish -> Rampage = Scission


Haven't tested these myself, so no guarentee


So Wild Flourish basically works like a WS that has all 8 elements attached to it? Does it do any damage of its own?

[IfritnoItazura]

This is pretty exciting; as long as a Dancer has enough finishing moves saved up, he can just wait for any DD to give a TP call, and start an SC? Wow.

[Karinya]

It can open Gravitation, Fusion *and* Fragmentation? Holy crap! (No Distortion though - I guess they didn't want DNC soloing level 2 SC, even though BLU can solo level 3. Well, you could probably WF > Shadowstitch for Frag, but it'd be a pretty sad amount of damage.)
Wild Flourish -> Shoulder Attack = Nothing
Assuming you mean Shoulder Tackle, that's odd; it has the same primary property as Slugshot, Sidewinder and Sturmwind. Maybe the timing was off or something?
Wild Flourish -> Subtle Blow = Detonation
Assuming you mean Backhand Blow, which fits the overall pattern.

My theory based on this data: WF has a SC property of Det, Liq, Ind, (Tran), Sci, (Imp), Rev, Comp (in that order) - except that if the closing WS has multiple properties, it's the priority order of the WS that controls, not the priority order of WF (as shown by Spinning Attack). The Tran and Imp can't be activated because everything it reacts to would also have reacted to something higher in the order, but I put them there because they fit. The inclusion of Rev - allowing it to open Induration, as yet unobserved - is a conjecture based on the pattern.

Therefore I predict:
Wild Flourish > Asuran Fists = Liquefaction
WF > Dragon Kick = nothing
WF > Howling Fist = Transfixion
WF > Gekko = Fragmentation
WF > Kasha = Gravitation
WF > Spinning Slash = nothing
WF > Ground Strike = nothing
WF > Wheeling Thrust = nothing
WF > Impulse Drive = Induration
WF > Guillotine = Induration
WF > Raging Rush = Induration

(Confirming at least one of those last three would be nice...)

[Zempten]

It does no DMG from my understanding.

I'm sorry I'm just 53 DNC and don't have WF yet. When I get to 60, hopefully end of this week after finals I'll do some tests with those you ask for Karinya.

[ioshua]

After reading the thread, it looks like this to me.

1) Are you main healer?
a) Yes: Don't WS
b) No: Continue to 2

2) Are you backup healer?
a) Yes + AE: Don't WS
b) Yes + No AE w/ weak main healer: WS rarely
c) Yes + No AE w/ strong main healer: WS often
d) No: WS like crazy

Mostly it's based on the assumptions that dancers in a heal-heavy situation will gear themselves for +Cha in place of +Melee and that they will also have less periods where they are fat and happy over 100%.

Good players of any class know how to adjust to any role their class can provide. That's one of the things that makes them good. Saying "No, you're never allowed to do X, Y or Z even though your class is more than capable of doing so" comes off very head-in-the-sand.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

After reading the thread, it looks like this to me.

1) Are you main healer?
a) Yes: Don't WS
b) No: Continue to 2

2) Are you backup healer?
a) Yes + AE: Don't WS
b) Yes + No AE w/ weak main healer: WS rarely
c) Yes + No AE w/ strong main healer: WS often
d) No: WS like crazy

When is DNC not a healer or backup healer?

It kinda sickens me that a class that is defined as a healer is already looking for ways to pass the buck so they can tank or DD instead.

[Mouser]

Let's put it this way.

If you had a mage in the party, that could cast a spell doing mediocre damage and cost all of his MP, would you really want him to?

That's what it's like most of the time with DNC. Our TP is far too valuable to blow all for one minor damage spike.

If a Dancer is sitting at 300 TP, great! That means their TP gain is keeping pace with them spamming Steps every 15 seconds, and curing whoever needs it, and if anything drastic happens, they can cure bomb the heck out people.

DNC is sort a weird mage job. We start with the ability to have our full level 75 "MP pool" at level 1, but it never gets any bigger. 300 TP is all you'll ever have (though when you can Reverse Flourish, you get a minor ability to effectively store some additional TP). That means, as we go up in level, and our Dances start getting more expensive, we have to try to fit them all into the same TP pool that we had at level 1.

[ioshua]

When is DNC not a healer or backup healer?


Exactly. That's why it was D on the 2nd option. For example, last night we had one as a tank. It was pretty loose and dangerous but I think proper +eva gear and more cure spamming (they didn't seem to do it too often) would have made a huge difference. It was a weird party (whm, drg, drk, pup [blm head], sch, dnc) but it worked out alright. Chain 5s on IT, just had to be choosy about what type of thing got pulled. Like flies, those were right out. The DNC (again, may be a tanking experience thing) couldn't really hold aggro through the post-sphere healing blitz.

Got a hell of a lot more xp than we would have sitting around waiting for a tank. It's not all the time but sometimes you just have to go with what you've got and, at those times, you adapt. That group, btw, would have been #2 - E "Unforseen option."