/DNC = new sub for tank

[Dymlos]

Okay guys I'm hearing word from Selphiie from LBR that /DNC can work as a sub for PLD, possibly better than /WAR. It seems that the healing waltz songs are super hate grabbers. Here are some vids. Can anyone else test this theory out before S-E goes and nerfs DNC as a sub, killing its sub job potental?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_3ut_zdQv8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shKbpoIcBOc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taoxJyiVVlI

[Sabaron]

I like the idea of PLD/DNC, it adds so much depth and allows them to heal even after their MP is completely depleted. I also don't think they'll "nerf" it. I believe it is intended to be an alternative to /WAR for the PLD that isn't afraid to boogie down--thus the Provoke dance.

[Ziero]

Actually I was thinking that War/Dnc may actually become a useful tank as well. I believe it's been proven that War/Whm(or pld) can be an effective tank on some mobs, but being able to cure without the use of MP would give War a near endless curing pool. And Def down, Eva down, Erase and a curaga of sorts would all be great tanking tools...

Though I honestly hope I'm wrong cause I really don't wanna lvl dancer ;;>_>

[Sabaron]

I'm mostly wondering how /DNC will play on NIN main, the tank with arguably the least enmity generation capabilities. If a NIN/DNC can tank, hold hate, heal, ghetto refresh front-line melees, debuff, voke, and DD, what else do you really need? I'm conceptualizing a 4 NIN/DNC + 2 BRD/NIN Greater Colibri Meripo just to cheese off the people who hate NIN because it's popular and hate TP-burn because it's fast. Maybe swap a BRD/NIN for a COR/RNG so we can get Samurai Roll--not that you can actually find a COR nowadays (or even in the olden days)--the last time I looked there were 5 of them on the whole of Asura server which is half as many as playing PUP.

Actually, 4 NIN/DNC is probably not good. It is likely better to replace 2 of them with pierce-type DD's.

[Dymlos]

That's what I'm afraid of. If NINs are able to pull all that off then that means people will be even more obsessed with NIN tanks only. But I feel that /DNC is better suited for PLD since it goes along their method of tanking: curing.

[Jarre]

I was wondering if anyone has done any experiments using curing waltz 1 and targeting other players. i.e. best macro to use for parties as you don't get the curaga one as /dnc until pld is 50.

I beleive whm use a sort of <p1>, <p2> etc as target corresponding with the party player list, does this work for this spell?

[Ellipses]

There's nothing special about Curing Waltz compared to any other spell/ability that can target another player. You'd use all the same targeting mechanisms you'd use with cure spells, and which one is a matter of player preference: <p*>, <st>, <stpc>, Playername, etc.

[Jarre]

Thanks ellipse, not beign a whm in a party situation I have not had the need to macro in for people.

do it take it then if i had a party of 6 players...

ellipse <p1>
Me <p2>
bonjovi <p3>
lipolot <p4>
lanky <p5>
taru <p6>

so I would macro in then to cure ellipse as ja/ "Curing Waltz" <p1> and it should cure you?

can you just clarify this as correct, because then when i go pld/dnc which i will try I can help get hate better by using these macros set to G keys on my G15. (by the way have you seen the new one, people complained it was too big so the shortened it and took away all the G keys duh!!!)

[Ellipses]

The only things are that it's <p0> to <p5> instead of 1 to 6, and that you're always <p0> since you're always at the top of your own party list. Other than that, you've got it.

[Lmnop]

Though I don't think most mages it do it that way... it's typically easier to just have a macro that says /ma "Cure III" <t> or maybe <stpc>. And actually select who you want to cure before hitting the macro (or after in the case of stpc).

[DakAttack]

I used the F keys when targeting players who needed a heal, and when targeting myself in macros I use <me> instead of <p0>.

[Ellipses]

I'm personally a fan of the <st> line, since I've never wanted to devote 6 whole macros to the same spell. But if it works and doesn't detract from everything else, groovy.

<t> just won't work in this case, though. That's going to be the mob every time with /DNC.

[Sabaron]

To Lmnop, Dak and Ellipses:

He's talking about Logitech G Series Keyboard macros, not in-game macros. He has 18 buttons on his keyboard, 6 of which he's assigning to each party member for quick, one-button cure effects.

[Ellipses]

Ooooh. I totally knew that.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Genome really does a great job showing how /DNC can be put to use by a job with a low delay weapon. I imagine PLD/DNC should also be able to solo Imps since they will get a 12.5% piercing bonus with Joyuese. Puk might also make good solo targets for PLD/DNC since they have less annoying special attacks and a 25% piercing bonus, but the difference in HP might be a problem. Also Drain Samba II would be better than Aspir Samba since you will avoid waisting time healing.

[Zempten]

I think Imps might be a problem for a PLD/DNC seeing how everything DNC does is Job Abilities and Amnesia totally kills it.

[IfritnoItazura]

I imagine PLD/DNC should also be able to solo Imps since they will get a 12.5% piercing bonus with Joyuese.
Like Zempton says, /DNC (and DNC main, for that matter), would suck on Imps. They are already annoying to tank when they lock away all my job abilities. -_-#


Also Drain Samba II would be better than Aspir Samba since you will avoid waisting time healing.
Er, is this still about soloing? If not, then cures give loads of enmity; it's how a PLD tanks. It's certainly not a "waste of time". If restoring HP via /DNC gives similar amount of enmity, then I can see it as a good idea when fighting critters with MP without a refresher in party. Otherwise, what else is a PLD going to spend his MP on if not Cures and Flash? Holy?

When soloing, I'd probably rather save my TP for Vorpal Blade or Swift Blade if I have the MP to cure.

[WishMaster3K]

I don't know about you guys, but I think Holy is a completely awesome spell.

I haven't exactly found a use for it outside of MBing though. And since I haven't seen a Skillchain in about 3 months... Yeah.

Anyway.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

-flies in-

Oh hey when did my videos get posted here?

Lol.

Well let me just say this from experience. I love PLD/DNC, i use it to tank smaller NMs/Missions/Campaign (Since WHMs are lazy in campaign as just want to DD instead of do their jobs).

I rely on my joyeuse for TP gain, ALONG with my Shield Mastery. So as PLD/DNC i have alot of shield skill (+ merits too) Buckler earring, shield torque, etc. Even after popping off a Curing Waltz II I'll have the TP back right away. The video shown with the orc, that was a T+ Orc in Jugner Forest[S]. Despite people claiming it is a Decent Challenge orc i had people go out and see it is a little toughie.

So yes, Joyeuse and Shield Mastery. Although it can be done without a Joyeuse, but the faster the TP gain the fast you can pull off steps for the weaker provoke with Animated Flourish. I use Divine Waltz (Curaga) and spam it a couple times to spike hate after a flash. I save Rampart actually when my TP is low and i need to not be interuppted when i use my MP to cure myself while my TP builds back up.

Dancer and Scholar were jobs SE slapped out as great subjobs (Not scholar for Paladin im just saying they are great subjobs)

It seems /dnc is just awesome for tanks. I don't suggest it for Endgame though, except maybe Nyzul Isle. I wouldnt dream of going to a HNM as PLD/DNC. PLD/WAR all the way. Bloodtanking. People are so spoiled with blink tanking Paladins.

Although i do have /nin to 37 with Utsusemi:Ni in situations where i know i have to blink tank. Although these are very rare and if i know i don't have to blink tank, i wont. We are paladins, not ninjas.

[IfritnoItazura]

Can PLD/DNC be used effectively in regular exp parties? My WS as a turtle style PLD70 pretty much sucks; it'd be nice to find a better use for my TP.

Despite what I've read, I rarely found parties I feel comfortable tanking on DD gear. At best, I'm able to eat Dorado Sushi when the party is edging on the high end of suitable levels for the camp, and once in a while swap to Scorpion Harness. Usually, however, not going the defensive route would've been potentially disruptive to chaining.

In situations where Defender is too much defense but critter hits hard enough to make DD gear iffy, it'd be nice if I can turn some of the TP into cures. My main concern would be losing Provoke, though; it's nice to have a guaranteed enmity spike (except on Imps) every 30 seconds.

[JP_Ikari]

I heard the provoke dnc move doesn't hold hate well so i dunno, just stuff i heard about it. I wouldn't think this would be a very viable sub for a PLD (even if you're soloing considering we do crap DMG as is, and the reason why Genome pulled it off, is the fact that MNK is just heavy dmg dealers as is, unlike PLD). Unless you can show me you guys pulled it off (and considering even with +30 enmity, the parties nowadays just go for lolDef Mobs, I highly doubt you'd be doing any better than /WAR or whatever).

JP

Edit: Btw I'm saying "if" this as a viable Sub for tanking mainly, not for soloing.

[Lmnop]

Missing your steps to build for your flourish sucks. But remember that you'll get acc bonus I and have an A+ with your sword. That helps some.

The steps generate a fair amount of enmity, though. I can't really give a comparison, but I pull hate a lot with them (but I'm just low-manning with a NIN who doesn't provoke very often). The animated flourish will almost always be with 2 FMs used, so it's not terribly weak. All told, I think the amount of hate you'd lose from true 'voke would be made back incrementally, and quite quickly, via the other things /dnc has to offer. If, for some reason, you can quickly build tp on something but can't do a crap-ton of damage to warrant WSs, I don't see why not (even if your WSs are actually useful, you have to wonder if they're more useful than stacking debuff steps and getting mp-free cures).

[Celeal]

I think PLD/DNC fits well to Hybrid-DD Tank setup:

Lets look at the /DNC JA timer:
Quickstep (or Box Step) -- 15 seconds timer
Animated Flourish -- 30 seconds timer

Lets compare application of PLD/WAR's Provoke with application of PLD/DNC's Animated Flourish

Note: For simplicity, I will omit Flash, Cure, etc, since both PLD/WAR and PLD/DNC can do those.

In the 1st minute of the battle

PLD/WAR:
Battle begins -> Provoke -> 30 seconds -> Provoke -> 30 seconds -> Provoke -> (30 seconds x 2 = 1 minute) ...

PLD/DNC:
Battle begins -> Quickstep (or Box Step), then Animated Flourish -> 15 seconds -> Quickstep (or Box Step) -> 15 seconds -> Quickstep (or Box Step), then Animated Flourish -> 15 seconds -> Quickstep (or Box Step) -> 15 seconds -> Quickstep (or Box Step), then Animated Flourish -> (15 seconds x 4 = 1 minute) ...

So, in the 1st minute, a PLD/WAR have 3 Provoke. On the other hand, a PLD/DNC has 6 Steps + 3 Animated Flourish.

The restriction of PLD/DNC:
1) PLD/DNC needs 10+ TP before battle begins, or else PLD/DNC is a behind of PLD/WAR in time of buliding hate.
2) PLD/DNC's accuracy needs to be good.

If the hate generated from Animated Flourish is less than Provoke, the hate generated from Steps + Animated Flourish may bridge the gap. Remember, Step's timer is half of Animated Flourish, which means for every Animated Flourish, PLD/DNC can do 2 Steps.

However, if the PLD/DNC has 2 or more Finishing moves before the battle begins, the PLD/DNC will have an extra Animated Flourish.

Another issue:
Would Hybrid-DD gear setup for PLD/DNC risky, compare to a traditional PLD/WAR defensive build?

I think Drain Samba I/II is the solution. With Drain Samba I/II, I think a PLD/DNC can get away with using Sushi and some DD gear. /DNC does provide Accuracy Bonus, and Evasion Bonus (helps to counter Haubergeon's -20 evasion). A level 60 PLD/DNC with Life belt + Hauby alone would have +30 acc.

The trade off between PLD/DNC and PLD/WAR:
PLD/DNC will give up Double Attack, and instead of saving TP for WS, PLD/DNC will spam Quickstep or Box Step.

How about Waltz?
Although Curing Waltz I/II uses a lot of TP, it cannot be interrupted (unless the PLD is stunned, or paralyzed). In addition, Divine Waltz is like a Curaga, which is another hate holding too. And also, PLD/DNC should still using his MP to cure too.

Note: The formula of Curing Waltz involves caster's CHR+ and target's VIT+. I am not sure about PLD/DNC's CHR, but I am sure PLD has good VIT.

Another situational tools:
Aspir Samba, Healing Waltz.

At least on paper, PLD/DNC seems right. When my DNC reaches level 37, I would definitely try PLD/DNC in merit parties.

[IfritnoItazura]

Farming Fomor Codex the other night in the Lv.40 area, we had PLD/WAR (me), WAR/DNC and THF/NIN for SATA setup. I use Flash at the start of the fight to reduce amount of damage the WAR takes.

The WAR/DNC said he had trouble turning the critters with Animated Flourish when he has only 1 finishing move, so apparently that's weaker than one Flash. (I think the only enmity modifier I had was the Grudge Sword; have to double check to be sure, though.)

Even Animated Flourish with two finishing moves didn't seem quite as strong as Provoke, though it's really hard to be sure in all the chaos. What I'm hoping is the routine of Step-Step-Flourish would be comparable enmity to Provoke over time, and use leftover TP to supplement MP based curing.

Of course, that also means I'd have to level DNC first. Arg.

[Lmnop]

The first fight would always be the biggest problem. Luckily, Paladin has Flash. This is typically enough, even in tard burn parties, to hold hate for your first couple of swings. Or if someone rips hate off while Flash is up, it's still likely to miss the melee that Tachi: Gekko'd a mob still incoming. Not to mention, modern burn parties expect the melee to get beat up some, so having to cope with that loss for the first fight after zoning seems rather trivial.

Also, Joyeuse.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Yeah, I has a Joyeuse in my video, really helps with building tp to spam waltzes and steps for hate~

EDIT: Also its a great sub for tanks, but not a tank itself.

[DakAttack]

Didn't SE say Dancer was supposed to be a tank? I thought WotG added a new tank job...

[Lmnop]

Don't think so. I think they just said they expected them to main heal in small groups. Which, btw, they're awesome at. Not that DNC main's tanking is anything resembling weak. The AoE cure (I've just been calling it discoga) is nuts good for hate. In my last party, the SAM would typically get hit 1-2 times/fight, and instead of using animated flourish to pull hate off the NIN, I'd let her get hit once or twice and just use discoga. Granted, I wasn't main tank, but for that stuff, DNC definitely tanks well when needed (too well, in fact T.T I can't wait 'til next level when I get Curing Waltz 2. More efficient curing with less hate attached).

Curing everyone up after a bomb toss is great.

[Yellow Mage]

Didn't SE say Dancer was supposed to be a tank? I thought WotG added a new tank job...

I'm pretty sure somebody has a sig around here that fits this perfectly . . . something along the lines of "Dancer is not a tank, there was no new Tank job in WotG, get over it."

But, yeah, you reminded me of that, and I laughed. lolDak. :biggrin:

The AoE cure (I've just been calling it discoga) is nuts good for hate.

Now this wins! :rofl:

[Amberly]

I'm currently a 70 pld / 35 dnc and I love it. I was in my ls bragging about it the other day when a 75war/nin wanted me to prove how good it was. We go out to balista or w/e and start to go at it. Mind you, I dont have joy toy yet so that could have helped. Also, I have no merits in shield, sword, etc. Nothing for pld help in otherwords and this is a decently merited war. Needless to say, after a long hard fight, he got owned. Pld/dnc may not be the best for tanking but for longjevitie it rules.

[Celeal]

This evening I got invite to a pickup party as PLD/DNC for my 1st time, merit in Greater Colibri camp. Party setup was:

RDM/WHM, BRD/NIN, RNG/NIN, WAR/NIN, THF/NIN, PLD/DNC.

Exp. points was flowing very smoothly until 2 other parties invade the camp.

I am very satisfy with the damage mitigation and hate control from PLD/DNC. I was able to main tank without any downtime (with the help from RDM and THF).