summoner update ideal.

[Bolla]

Summoner should be able to have control of their spirit blood packs..
If they can, the recast timer should be base off of there summoning skill.
I wish shiva and the other avatars can use ancient magic. I know that it won't be
fair to just update the summoner, but I will be glad that all jobs will get a nice update.

[IfritnoItazura]

The spirits follow an algorithm for what to cast, though it's not completely deterministic (from the point of the view of the player). A knowledgeable Summoner (probably with some help from the party) can create condition for which the spirits would be more likely to cast desirable spells.

From: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=15;mid=1098398439716232797
Bear in mind, this isn't the whole story. Unlike avatars, you cannot choose what magic spell a Spirit will use. It is chosen somewhat randomly, though certain variables such as day and the elemental weakness of the target come into play.

At the level that a spirit can cast ancient magic, it also has a list of "preferred" spells that it likes to use. You will see these in parentheses in the level chart above. For the most part, the spell the spirit will cast is randomly chosen from that list. However, there are some rules that govern that choice:

1: A spirit will not cast an enfeebling spell that is already stuck on the mob.

2: A spirit is more likely to cast a damaging spell if your HP is low.

3: A spirit is more likely to cast the more powerful spells if the ratio of your Summoning Magic Skill to the mobs level is high.

4: A spirit is most likely to cast a strong attack spell on its weakest day (i.e. Fire Spirit on Watersday) against a mob that is weak to the spirits element.

More info: http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=75469

Most SMNs I've seen in parties either lack the skill, knowledge, MP, Summoning skill, or inclination to make use of these. Though, to be fair, I don't know if it's a good idea to rely on these spirits or not, even for a skilled and knowledgeable Summoner.

[Akashimo]

Spirits if anything now, are just the quick recast pet that lets you get away in time. Light Spirit is like the whm frame for pup, but it can't cast na spells, longer recast time on cures, and very hard to make it buff a person you want it to buff at times. Sadly, they're really not the worth of mp a tick for keeping them at for any fight however long.

[Losrase]

The summoner should be able to set the spirits to auto (the way the behave today) or Manual (like a beast pet) If it is manual then if the summoner sends their spirit to attack, the spirit should cast offensive spells. If the summoner does not send their spirit to attack, the spirit should cast defensive/support spells.

I still dont think the summoner should be able to control the exact spell casted. I always thought spirits were magical creature with a basic thought process unlike avatars who can reason. The spirit will try its best to help its summoner spending on which command it was given.

[Akashimo]

A spirit is nothing more than a user spawned weather elemental. Those too cast in similar ways to that of what we get for pets. Sad to say, much weaker than most of their level. The cost is just to much to use for such weak pets. My personal fav was Fire spirit casting blaze spikes and burn... That and light spirit casting Regen over Protect II <.<;

[Nataka]

Yeah, really the issue with spirits is their MP cost. I love the guys, I think the idea behind them is very interesting and has a LOT of potential with the right amount of +smnskill gear, but even with all the merits and -prep cost gear their cost is still a little too much to keep them out with the fact they might not cast anything good :x

Also: be careful about thinking what would be 'ideal', 'cause you'll only be disappointed in the end lol.

[Akashimo]

Ideal is to work like how the automation blm and whm frames work.

[Pteryx]

It does sound as though the next SMN update will have something to do with the elemental spirits and MP, possibly lowering their costs on the proper day. We'll see, though. (I just wish they'd hurry up and improve the Acc or Att of avatars, myself, but making the spirits worth something is nice too.) -- Pteryx

[Nataka]

Ideal is to work like how the automation blm and whm frames work.

Geez, that would be the ideal. It makes my mouth water :('

[Akashimo]

It does sound as though the next SMN update will have something to do with the elemental spirits and MP, possibly lowering their costs on the proper day. We'll see, though. (I just wish they'd hurry up and improve the Acc or Att of avatars, myself, but making the spirits worth something is nice too.) -- Pteryx
Be nice if we could pay hp a tick to become the avatar and control using their model. That or something to go back to the level of summoner vanishes and avatar appears.

[Malacite]

Here's a thought...

How about making avatars not suck. That's all. I've ranted about all my ideas in previous posts and don't feel like collecting them into 1 big rant just now.

[Omniblast]

They keep adding frivolous abilities to SMN when it's not necessary.

There's a couple of things they can do already in game that would help smn a lot such as:

Improving current abilities of smn so that the damage curve isn't dealt such a heavy blow. Missing attacks, and so forth are part of it as well. (5 merits into avatar physical accuracy + af2 bracers and I end up doing 130 to besiged mobs.)

If the mob is not close enough for the attack to land, the mp should not be consumed for the blood pact.

Perpetuation, decreasing it.

Blood Pact mp cost. This is one of the main drainers for smn mp drain. Costs for usage of smn is very high especially when we have to last vs. a easy prey or decent challenge mob. Yes I know we could technically carby kite, but what's the point of having 9 avatars and 7 spirits when they would leave you if you ran out of mp? May fall into the perpetuation portion as well.

resting while avatar is out

Well maybe a lot of those ideas are just too "far fetched" for something as iconic as Avatars from Final Fantasy.

[Lord Nat]

I think if they just made them not have a MP/Tick cost then you'd be able to at least keep the way they work more or less them same.

Then summoners can burn MP on Avatars, Summon up an Element, rest to recover MP. It'd fit with the Summoner play style as well being "Big attack once in awhile".

[Malacite]

*sigh* may as well get my rant on (got nothing else to do) Also, I don't want to hear any crap about balance issues. Some of my ideas may be going too overpowering, but such has always been the nature of SMN and I don't understand why SE shies away from it. SMN should wield immense power (they summon gods!!!) but at a cost (Fragile body and intensive MP).

I've always loved how in the previous games SMN was so powerful, but also required careful use of their MP lest you be left with naught but a fragile little mage. A veritable glass cannon (more so than BLM)

More Variance in Avatars:

- Seeing as Ifrit is the god of fire, and fire governs STR, why does Ifrit not deal the most physical damage? At least out of the current avatars anyway? The same should really apply to the other avatars. It would make them that much more unique and flavorful, and really give SMN more versatility.

Ifrit (STR + DD/enmity) Titan (VIT + Physical Def) Garuda (AGI + Speed) Ramuh (DEX + Critical Hits) Leviathan (MND + Magic Def) Shiva (INT + Magic AttacK) Carbuncle (CHR(?) + Healing)... Fenrir and Diabolos are bit harder to place since Darkness is a bit of an enigma and the only stat it pertains to is MP, but you get the idea.

No tanks seeking? Have a SMN whip out Titan or Ifrit and try it that way. Ifrit would follow the kill or be killed strategy given that should be offensive oriented (making him good for burn set ups), while Titan would last much longer due to his defensive nature but also generate less enmity.

I think this would be awesome, since the SMN would have to be very careful in regards to what the party does and how long their avatar lasts. If they're not careful or don't put enough distance between them an the mob, well, they're gonna end up dead unless the PT does something. People want a new and unique way to tank? There, I just gave it to you.


Summoning Magic Skill:

- This is probably one of the biggest issues SMN has. This skill does jack shit. No one bothers with spirits in parties, and IMO, requiring more skill than your current skill cap to get any kind of performance boost out of blood pacts is an outright insult.

Why doesn't SE change it so that an Avatar's stats and performance scale more appropriately according to skill level as opposed to just SMN level? This goes double for Blood Pacts. A lv 75 SMN with capped skill and one with much less should not both do the same or similar damage with their blood pacts. That's BS.


Blood Pacts:

- The bread and butter of the job. Why oh why SE do so many of them suck horse cock? Tier 2 and 4 nukes well before BLM gets them and they are out damaged by said BLM with spells of lower tiers? WTF is that? Rolling Thunder, Warcry and Frost Armor are all pretty damn useless. In fact, a lot of the damaging BP's pre-70 don't even match the damage of your average weapon skill.

If we're going to spend the MP to summon our avatars (possibly even *gasp* keep them out) and then spend more MP for special attacks, how about some bang for our buck? Why the hell should we have to wait until 70 to do any real damage? (And even then most Melee can easily out damage them either through DoT or other abilities and enhancements. Never mind the crazy MP cost of the 70 BPs) The fact that they can hit HNMs for good dmg is a crap excuse
.

WHM v.2

- This is my biggest gripe of all with SMN in this game. Being relegated to subbing WHM and main healing for any chance of decent EXP in a party setting sucks. period. The lack of being able to DD or other party functions aside, it's not even so much the main healing aspect.

It's that we basically act as a second WHM with a bigger MP pool with a cute little neon squirrel and his friends. Why not just level WHM then? I think that Carbuncle should undergo a massive rehauling. Let Alexander (if we ever get him) bring the Light Elemental smack down (as he damn well should).

Carbuncle's always been a support avatar, let's keep him that way. I'd like his Astral Flow changed back to Ruby Light or some variation of it, but then that'd screw up the Mini-Forks pretty badly (Good Job SE...)

So for now, how about we buff up his support and healing abilities. I don't mind tossing the occasional cure as a SMN, but if I'm going to main heal I think it would be a lot more fun and interesting if I could do that via Carbuncle.

Separating all blood pacts into individual timers would be a huge help. But in lieu of that, I propose we pump up his healing pacts. Maybe add a Regen Effect (that goes up with TP) to Healing Ruby so that people aren't dying inbetween pacts. ANYTHING that encourages keeping the little guy out and using him rather than lolCures to keep the party alive. You know, like a summoner.


Strategic use of MP and pacts should be the focus of SMN and not whoring out Cures.

[Susurrus]

This topic again.

[Yellow Mage]

This topic again.

Okay, you're a level 75 Summoner, what are your thoughts on this?

[IfritnoItazura]

Okay, you're a level 75 Summoner, what are your thoughts on this?
Would be interesting to hear a fresh voice with backing of experience.

Improving current abilities of smn so that the damage curve isn't dealt such a heavy blow. Missing attacks, and so forth are part of it as well.
Exactly what kind of accuracy and damage output do the Avatars give presently? I've seen Garuda outputting some impressive damage in certain BC fights and on some poor Imps.

(Kinda regret tossing the parser data I had a few days ago while duo'ing with SMN. *sigh* I was spamming all sorts of enfeeb spells on RDM, but Garuda held the Imps solidly after just one BP. She's like a tank... with wings...)

If the mob is not close enough for the attack to land, the mp should not be consumed for the blood pact.
Don't think so; if monster moving can waste my TP when I'm trying to use a weapon skill, it can and should waste your MP if the party/alliance do not have the coordination to anchor the target in place.

We don't need less incentives for teamwork, that's for sure.

Perpetuation, decreasing it.
I'd prefer a more holistic approach, and see exactly what the situation is for MP recovery over time, MP consumption over time, damage/MP ratio for both typical and optimal play scenarios.

Then, I'd want the same data for BLM and BLU, and compare, since those are the other magic DDs.

If SMN is getting substantially less damage/MP or have significantly more MP flow problem, then maybe perpetuation cost should be adjusted. Or, maybe the avatar should be more damaging. Or, some combination of the two. However, any calls for radical changes should be backed by solid data and analysis.

[Telera]

I agree that we need solid data on MP changes, but by and large most anyone can see Summoner is in need of a big something.

I'm a level 62 summoner and have finally gotten to the 'I'm so sick of this' point. I've been levelling my alt more than I've even looked at my Summoner in weeks. It isn't curing, I don't mind that really, provided we had more options within our avatars to do it.

I think what bugs me is more so than many other jobs, Summoner is more defined at present by its subjob for at least 65-70 levels. If that's not a sign of a problem, nothing is. A job shouldn't only start to shine in the last 5-10 levels. That's boring as fuck to even bother to level. Sure, Garuda can hurt imps, but until Predator Claws, I almost never use her in party. Blink-ga is useless b/c everyone is /nin anyway.

Now, even if we were to get more Curing abilities via Carby overhaul, or even Leviathan, I would still sub /whm because I enjoy having that sub. But I would also like to see Summoning Skill matter for something w/o having to cap+beyond. Though, if it starts scaling down they might need to stop making skill ups so damn hard to come by unless you sit in besieged spamming meteorite. In regular exp, I still hardly pull down any skill ups. And that was in a party where I actually got to mostly buff and DD for once. I think I saw maybe 3 skill up messages the entire time. I wouldn't mind fighting EPs to skill up (as opposed to summon/release for hours) so long as it was actually fruitful.

As Mal said, the problem isn't the good BPs, it's the fact that so many are useless as hell. The only pacts that pull off damage worth the effort pre-65/70 is Double Slap (if you're lucky) or maybe Meteorite. Double Punch seems about as variable as Double Slap, but there you go. Good damage against a HNM or in a BC is not even remotely useful. The majority of any player's time isn't spent in either of those situations. Especially during the levelling up phase.

An avatar (short of Carby) costs too much over time to leave out to deal damage. Their DoT fails next to any decently equipped DD. Most BP damage is outdone by WS. And people cry about giving mobs TP if you do leave them out. Perhaps if the damage done was worth it the rest of the party wouldn't mind so much.

And now that I've rambled (and likely made no sense because I've got a migraine *again* and had to take stupid pills that make me funny *again*), I'm going to go back over there and level my tarutaru bst...

[Malacite]

All the more reason for some of the changes I proposed, like using Titan Ifrit or Gaurda to tank.

It wouldn't really be unbalanced either (save perhaps in a SMN burn unless when an avatar dies all it's enmity is transfered to the SMN) given the MP cost to keep them out and depending on the avatar used, varying hate thresholds.

I think we an all agree that the biggest problem with SMN is the lack of viable summoning. I might actually enjoy main healing if i got to do it through Carbuncle/Leviathan/Alexander/Phoenix/Garuda rather than /WHM.

I'm not saying /WHM shouldn't help in this, just that it shouldn't be the main emphasis. Like any sub job, it should be there to supplement our abilities, not act as the core.

[RandomKG3]

I've wanted to be a smn ever since the English/American beta and having achieved the goal of obtaining nearly everything with the job that I've ever wanted, I have to say that there are a couple of things which could be remedied about the job. First and foremost, what I see most lacking is a niche within an XP party. SE has expressed disappointment/annoyance at how smn is played and so has the player base, so let's examine that.

Right now smn is basically a stand-in for whm within a party for the first 65 levels or so worth of XP. The reason is because we're basically seen for our sub, a half level whm with a whole ton of mp. The slow casting times is something most XP parties are willing to deal with until the late 60's into the 70's when damage becomes too high for a smn to keep up with alone with just Cure III's. Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind that nothing will change this or the continuation of this trend unless SE releases changes that make the smn more appealing in a different role than healer. What role might that be? Well, that's more up to SE than any of us, but DD has been proposed. So has support, but since we're already capable of being support right now and it hasn't fixed anything about the whm situation, it's something that can be debated whether or not more support role reinforcement and changes will actually do anything except encourage the continuation of smn as a substitute whm with XP parties.

A lot of endgame smns will tell you, smn doesn't really start until level 70. In some ways, the perception of our job as an endgame DD really cements this in the mind of many players. Recent FF games also stand to shoulder some of the blame in this perception, as one of the frequently used techniques to quickly run through the more recent FF games is to summon your avatar and wipe the board clean all the way through to the end of the game. Increasing avatar damage for smns level 1 - 69 would certainly encourage pushing smn into a DD role, something most players don't necessarily object to, but is that what SE wants for the job?

I think ultimately this is the central question on everyone's mind. Most players have reached the point where they don't care what role smn gets slotted into, they just want SE to make up their mind and enact the changes they keep promising to get the job to where they want it. Living in the shadow of another job for 60+ levels is not fun. Granted, you can make it interesting for yourself if you're creative, but nonetheless smn has never classically been a healing job and I think both the players and SE recognizes this. Many jobs are not defined by their subjob and can function without it or with a different subjob. Summoner as it is played now, however, is strongly defined by white mage as a sub. Any changes that can perhaps help move smn away from this, I think will go a long way towards making everyone happy. Until then, all of those level 69 and lower smns will just have to endure and try to reach 70+ as quickly as possible and maybe pray SE enacts more drastic changes for the lower levels.

[Yellow Mage]

Okay, I think we've reached a unanimous decision on the matter: all we want is Summoner to not be defined as its sub.

We don't care if they end up DD-ing, Healing, Supporting, or doing something completely out of left field, so long as they do it as a Summoner, and not a /WHM + MP.

We also agree this problem is most prominent pre-70, which is arguably of equal importance to endgame.

I personally say think that the Spirit patch announced at the fanfest is just another "beating around the bush" fix; at the very least they stated that they still intend Red Mages to visit the frontline, and they didn't even acknowledge so much as such a statement of intent for Summoner. All we heard was "additions to Spirits and new Avatars."

I hold by my theory that S-E is still afraid of making Summoner too powerful.

[Telera]

I still hold to my theory that adding more avatars is another band-aid on a compound fracture. And the spirit thing just seems to be a sub-par idea at best. If they let us refresh MP, they're still offensively not worth much.

Really, all that new avatars adds is yet *more* stupid quests and fame and hard ass fights for a fledgling summoner to have to go do. Not to mention likely having to level enough to go through more of AU or CoP in the process. These additions are turning summoner back away from being 'newbie accessible'. If said newbie takes the time to do the mini-forks, they could have, at one point, been able to set themselves up and be of use to their party.

But now you have Diabolos. And heaven knows what else is coming, which will probably require tearing through CoP or WotG.

Here's a hint, SE: Whatever path you take, fix summoner. I don't want new avatars. I want my job to be useful and defined as a summoner and not its sub. After you get that right, I might be bothered to go fetch yet more minimally useful avatars (Diabolos ring a bell? Even when a summoner has it I almost never see it used)to complete my collection. But if they're just more rehashing of barely useful blood pacts, or downright useless until Endgame kiting... I'm really not interested.

I want summoner to be enjoyable *pre* endgame, not just at it.

[Yellow Mage]

That "newbie accessible" thing is a huge flaw with Summoners. You practically need another job at 75 already in order to be a decent Summoner.

Carby Mitts, anyone?

[Akashimo]

Lets not forget Fenrir, AND Diabolos x2

[Malacite]

Okay, I think we've reached a unanimous decision on the matter: all we want is Summoner to not be defined as its sub.

We don't care if they end up DD-ing, Healing, Supporting, or doing something completely out of left field, so long as they do it as a Summoner, and not a /WHM + MP.

We also agree this problem is most prominent pre-70, which is arguably of equal importance to endgame.

I personally say think that the Spirit patch announced at the fanfest is just another "beating around the bush" fix; at the very least they stated that they still intend Red Mages to visit the frontline, and they didn't even acknowledge so much as such a statement of intent for Summoner. All we heard was "additions to Spirits and new Avatars."

I hold by my theory that S-E is still afraid of making Summoner too powerful.

Which is exactly the case. Sage Sundi himself (I think it was him) has gone on record saying that's the core issue with SMN. They know it's always been one of if not the strongest job in each of the games it's been in and that balancing it in XI is especially difficult (basically they want to avoid the invincible BLM scenario)


However it seems their too chicken shit to even try.

[Bolla]

Some of the things I hope to see maybe a 0% chance of happing.
CARBUNCLE: Level
Healing Ruby 1 (will have a regain effect.)
Poison Nails 5
Poison Nails II 43
Shining Ruby 24
Glittering Ruby 44
Glittering Ruby II 60 (Randomly enhances two attribute for party members within area of effect.
IFRIT :
Blaze spikes 29
Flare 62
TITAN:
Quake 54
LEVIATHAN
Flood
GARUDA:
Tornado 52
SHIVA:
Freeze 50
RAMUH:
Burst 56
Thats just a few at the moment.

How about they recover hp when they get hit by their own magic like the other final fantasy games.

[Omniblast]

Some of the things I hope to see maybe a 0% chance of happing.
CARBUNCLE: Level
Healing Ruby 1 (will have a regain effect.)
Poison Nails 5
Poison Nails II 43
Shining Ruby 24
Glittering Ruby 44
Glittering Ruby II 60 (Randomly enhances two attribute for party members within area of effect.
IFRIT :
Blaze spikes 29
Flare 62
TITAN:
Quake 54
LEVIATHAN
Flood
GARUDA:
Tornado 52
SHIVA:
Freeze 50
RAMUH:
Burst 56
Thats just a few at the moment.

How much MP is THAT gonna cost me?

How about they recover hp when they get hit by their own magic like the other final fantasy games.

You mean using Evoker's Bracers? That's basically what it does.

Honestly, I'd rather see their abilities be increased, instead of this weak pansy crap that we have now. Most of the blood pacts that we have pre 70 are a joke, and even after 70 with merits, their still a joke.

Even Astral Flow, big deal I can hit a group of enemies for 1k damage, but are they dead? No. They progressively have gotten harder, while are abilities still suck.

[Rain_Blade]

Some of the things I hope to see maybe a 0% chance of happing.
CARBUNCLE: Level
Healing Ruby 1 (will have a regain effect.)
Poison Nails 5
Poison Nails II 43
Shining Ruby 24
Glittering Ruby 44
Glittering Ruby II 60 (Randomly enhances two attribute for party members within area of effect.
IFRIT :
Blaze spikes 29
Flare 62
TITAN:
Quake 54
LEVIATHAN
Flood
GARUDA:
Tornado 52
SHIVA:
Freeze 50
RAMUH:
Burst 56
Thats just a few at the moment.

How about they recover hp when they get hit by their own magic like the other final fantasy games.

Honestly, it wouldn't really matter to let our avatars have ancient spells because SE will just make it weaker than a blm's ancient spells...and we've all (summoners who have obtained the tier spells) have seen the tier spell's damage compared to a blm's tier spell...not pretty. Although, if you have enough TP, you could match a blm's tier spell damage but that's risking MP to be drained when meleeing for the TP.

SE just needs to change Summoner completely. The majority of ideas that come up gets rejected and it's rejected because it may not fit with the other functions of a Summoner. It really is a challenge to figure something out so that everyone's happy, but we're stuck having like a poison to our MP that can't be erased until SE does something.

[Bolla]

Here's another ideal
How about removing the avatar mp drain when the avatar is out
allow the avatar to hit hard like a warrior. an avatar can improve there weapon skills by attack an mob. new skills for summoner.
once the avatar get 100 tp they can use there blood packs without costing any mp.
make it so when they use there 2 hour they will have 3 special icons on the screen, if the avatar use 1 searching light he/she will have 2 icons left with a 1 min recast time. they can still lose mp while using there big attack. the 3 icons can last 1 hour.(very sleepy)


If there avatar tp is below 100 there bloodpacks can cost mp like always.

[Eiyoko]

Here's another ideal
How about removing the avatar mp drain when the avatar is out
allow the avatar to hit hard like a warrior. an avatar can improve there weapon skills by attack an mob. new skills for summoner.
once the avatar get 100 tp they can use there blood packs without costing any mp.
make it so when they use there 2 hour they will have 3 special icons on the screen, if the avatar use 1 searching light he/she will have 2 icons left with a 1 min recast time. they can still lose mp while using there big attack. the 3 icons can last 1 hour.(very sleepy)
If there avatar tp is below 100 there bloodpacks can cost mp like always.

For one, removing perpetuation would probably screw over tons of things in the game. Carby mitts, relic pieces, austere robe, staves, etc all lower perpetuation. I like how perpetuation works; if you think of it in a RP sense like I do it fits better.

Avatars don't use weapons (save for Ramuh, but if you read his story on the old Japanese Tribune you'll see wherehowandwhy), and having them skill up to learn new weapon skills would mess things up depending on how each summoner plays.

Also, not all blood pacts are physical. Some are spells, and if I'm not wrong, spells are never based on TP (some Blue Magic spells don't count).

For your idea on Astral Flow I have almost no clue what you are talking about. Astral Flow's affect itself lowers perpetuation to zero and unlocks the Astral Flow blood pacts; as you can tell the Astral Flow blood pacts are not the only things that come with the 2-hour's effect. In higher levels people tend to only use the 2-hour to save MP because level 70 blood pacts do insane damage that tends to match or exceed the Astral Flow ones. The main difference between Astral Flow Blood Pacts and the level 70 Blood Pacts, however, is that Astral Flow is AoE Magical damage, while the level 70 BPs are single-target physical damage (some of them, however, have added elemental properties, like how Ifrit's Burning Strike does physical fire damage).

It's all in how you make use of the avatars that determines how they perform.

You mean using Evoker's Bracers? That's basically what it does.

The Evoker's Bracers recover MP for the summoner though, right? Not HP for the avatar.

As for main healing, I don't mind it at all. Square-Enix didn't make us this way, the players did. SE gives us the game, we're the ones that decide what goes on how once the changes and additions are in it.

[Chubsmgee]

ya i hope they have an update darn u SE

[Malacite]

Also, not all blood pacts are physical. Some are spells, and if I'm not wrong, spells are never based on TP (some Blue Magic spells don't count).

Err, you're how high lv a SMN now? A lot of magical (and ONLY magical) BPs are TP based.

[Chubsmgee]

i only got lvl 1 smn but im doin some homework

[Eiyoko]

He was referring to me.

Actually, I never knew that the magical BPs were based on TP. I know they had some Black Magic spells but I always thought those were strictly spells and weren't based on TP like Black Magic spells were. I didn't think much about the others. O.o

You learn something new every day don't you...

[Malacite]

Yeah. Astral Flow isn't TP based I don't think, but it's oh-so-fun magic bursting it >.>b

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blood_Pact

I used to have a site bookmarked that listed specifically which pacts use TP, but it got taken down or something...

I believe it's all magical pacts (except Astral) that attack and heal that use TP. Buffs don't. (Tier 2/4 nukes, healing ruby etc)

[Bolla]

Maybe summoner and the rest of the jobs might get an update in jan 2008? Only time will tell.

[Chubsmgee]

ya i hope so SMN really didnt get all that great of a chance to be a good class...

[Malacite]

It's a good class, it just needs an overhaul.

Everything it needs is there, we're just waiting for SE to their act together and shift the focus to summoning rather than curing.

[Akashimo]

Only way i see that is make it so smn can't use spells while an avatar is out and 2, make it so they can't cast spells thats are not native to summoner have higher chances of resisting, like say, 80% chance.

[Rain_Blade]

1, Only way i see that is make it so smn can't use spells while an avatar is out and 2, make it so they can't cast spells thats are not native to summoner have higher chances of resisting, like say, 80% chance.

1. Well, that would be bad if you're out of an experience party since you're on your free will. In an experience party, it wouldn't make too much of a difference since Summoners usually don't even have an avatar out or never cast anything while an avatar is out since it would be better to release the avatar and then cast a spell. Also, either way, people wouldn't invite Summoners if we were unable to heal since no one considers us useful as a DD (I don't blame them sometimes) and the whole reason people invited us was because of that thought. "Summoner itself doesn't seem useful, so let's make it a healer for our party." "Didn't you read the update? They can't heal anymore." "Really? That sucks. I guess we just don't invite them unless it's the only job left in our level range."

2. That may defeat the purpose of Summoner being a backup healer in any kind of party if the party decides that the Summoner DDs and backup heals. Plus, the idea might cause frustration while soloing.

Example:

1. Summoner uses Cure III.
2. Summoner restores 40 HP leaving the Summoner with 238/683 HP.
3. Summoner uses Cure III again.
4. Summoner restores 56 HP leaving thw Summoner with 294/683 HP.
5. Summoner uses Cure III again.
6. Summoner restores 200 HP leaving the Summoner with 494/683 HP.
7. The Summoner jumps for joy since the last Cure II did not get resisted, but is disappointed in how much MP it took to finally get an unresisted Cure III.

[Chucklez_1]

1) multiply the dmg caused by avatars by 2 for both dot and BP, and add enchantment to their attacks.

2) or...make bp cost close to nil mana and/or more availability of -perp cost at lower level (or they can get rid of -perp altogether and just put a 1 min cooldown on any summons instead)

3) give summoners some basic base spells (i.e. cures, raise, and single elm nukes)

[Rain_Blade]

1) multiply the dmg caused by avatars by 2 for both dot and BP, and add enchantment to their attacks.

2) or...make bp cost close to nil mana and/or more availability of -perp cost at lower level (or they can get rid of -perp altogether and just put a 1 min cooldown on any summons instead)

3) give summoners some basic base spells (i.e. cures, raise, and single elm nukes)

1. Too much. I know we're not considered a DD at times, but we're not that weak as to give us a 2x boost.

2. More perpetuaton gear at lower levels would actually be nice.

3. That wouldn't make Summoners unique. Plus, we have those spells, but it's just in a different form. Healing Ruby is like a cure, but the higher lvl you get, the more it will heal more. Other spells spells that we have are exactly alike but in AOE form. Example: Earthen Ward is an AOE Stoneskin, but it's treated as it's own spell rather than calling it Stoneskinga (with the exception of Hastega also).

[Chucklez_1]

1) Heh I can understand how it can be OP against lower level mobs, but imho, it's not that powerful compared to higher mobs because of 1) high inaccuracy 2) miss rate is just plain awful 3) BP are pretty crappy even w/ TP and 4) dmg is cut by at least 1/2. It just justifies the cost of the perpetuation.

3) It's true that we have such form through our avatars, but it's in a 1 min cooldown. Although, you are right about summoner losing their 'uniqueness' (heck scholars remind me of rdm pre convert/refresh/gravity days). I'd stick by my judgement though although, they can create factors of what spells you can only cast. For example, having shiva out will allow you to cast any ice element spells but only those spells and w/e spells that are activated through your sub. But I have a feeling that it would be way too OP (I can imagine the posts in the blm forums now: "They took our jobs!")

[Chubsmgee]

Ok its a cool class and SE just needs to do an overhaul... So why if so many people complain, why dont they just do an update? May not be easy but it would be nice if they just said yes there will be an update in the future... Just saying it would be nice...

[Malacite]

Ok its a cool class and SE just needs to do an overhaul... So why if so many people complain, why dont they just do an update? May not be easy but it would be nice if they just said yes there will be an update in the future... Just saying it would be nice...

Just look at how long it took SE to fix DRG...

[Akashimo]

Thf and mnk are on my list after smn <_<;
at min., reduce accomplice recast to be more viable and/or add it to group 2 cat to improve it. For mnk, make h2h when its used with a martial arts trait, count as a two handed weapon >.>; That and bigger hp boosts.

Back to smn on hand. Prep cost vs what avatar dding outside of bp needs to be fixed. Honestly, only one you can barely use for dragged on fights is carby due to the lowest prep cost. While smn bp and release best choice, at least at the 70+ levels is garuda for predator claws. Though I have seen Fenny racked up some 900 dmg on eclipse bite o_o;;; Over all though, more atk and acc boosts, add some def/eva/parry, made pet dmg unfilterable by the npc option and count it as pty, ally, others catagory respectively.

Maybe a few more avatar themed armor similar to carby mitts, but for each avatar, and as armor sets that benefits the avatar they're named after.

Last bit i can think of, would be more of adding hidden effect to weapons from the prime fights to grant thoses weapon bonuses to the avatar they belong too while its on the smn themselve and not sitting in the mh.

[Malacite]

I say give avatars uncapped damage (no level penalties) like RNG used to have...

They're gods ffs. And it's "Perp" not "Prep" :P

[Raydeus]

Prepetuation cost? Preparation cost? Perpetuation cost? English is confusing. :rofl:

[Clever Ninja]

What I want to know is why can't the Avatars just be like in other FF games where they are MP expensive to cast? Instead of annoying perpetuation cost and high mp blood pacts, just greatly decrease perpetuation cost for all non-Carbuncle avatars and greatly increase the cost to summon them, and have it scale with your level just as perpetuation cost does. This will A) let the avatars stay out for much longer if they cost next to nothing or nothing at all to keep out, thus letting avatars DD and B) would allow for them to rationalize lowering the MP cost for blood pacts.

This will help let the SMN actually keep the avatar out to suit the needs of the party. Need a main healer? K, keep Carbuncle out to buff and help heal. Need to DD while being able to offheal? Garuda and Leviathan. For straight DD the other avatars. Right now, unless I see one soloing or carrying around their own personal Refresh whores(had the luxury of doing that one) I never see avatars out in XP situations, which saddens me since leveling SMN I love using the other avatars but can barely ever use them due to the cost.

We as a forum have pretty much done this topic to death though and several people have suggested changes. I guess January will show if SE will finally fix the job or not. I've enjoyed duoing and trioing my SMN to 20 and the last thing I want to do is level as a WHM stand in. I already dealt with that as RDM to 41 and getting WHM to 37. It's the main reason I haven't leveled SCH past 7.

[Rain_Blade]

Instead of annoying perpetuation cost and high mp blood pacts, just greatly decrease perpetuation cost for all non-Carbuncle avatars and greatly increase the cost to summon them, and have it scale with your level just as perpetuation cost does.

When a Summoner becomes a higher level, they'll see why that can't work or would be a great deal of confusion and "messing around with the gear." Greatly decreasing the perpetuation means changing the gear and trying to balance the job once again. Greatly increasing the cost to summon would be really frustrating since the higher you get, the more options of Blood Pacts you get to choose from from different avatars (yes I meant to say "from" twice). There are times when you want to summon an avatar for a Blood Pact Ward and then right after summon an avatar for a Blood Pact Rage. Although, sometimes people don't do the Rage if you're in the Heal and Support role, but when I'm in that role, I only do Ward>Rage when my MP is full since if I do it at like half of my mp, then I'd struggle for MP since I have to heal as well.

Need a main healer? K, keep Carbuncle out to buff and help heal.

It's not enough. There are many times when a Summoner becomes bored with only using Carbuncle for many instances. If it were possible to use any avatar and heal without any MP struggling problems, then it would be a win-win situation for everyone.

Need to DD while being able to offheal? Garuda and Leviathan.

If you're the backup healer, that could work. If you're the main healer, I don't think so. I could be understanding you wrong, but what do you mean by "offheal"? Do you mean it by not having the Summoner to heal?

For straight DD the other avatars.

That's another issue. We can't DD to the point where we can satisfy the party's speed rate. We can deal damage, but not like a REAL Damage Dealer could do at a much better rate with better MP handling.

I never see avatars out in XP situations, which saddens me since leveling SMN I love using the other avatars but can barely ever use them due to the cost.

Yeah it sucks, but we have tough choices.

1. Play the role that your party suggests that you play; which in turn, continues to make you unhappy.
2. Play the role that you want to play, but risk being "kicked" or complained at.
3. Wait for an update knowing it will be totally unexpected no matter how much SE uses the word "soon."
4. Don't play the job which is actually a win-lose situation on both sides. The game's society suggests the role for you constantly and if you don't do it, you'll be kicked out the party or have a history of not listening which in turns means you may not even be invited. They win, you lose. Although, you might decide to quit. So, that's one less person of someone they could have needed in a party in the future. They lose, and you sort of win (but at the same time lose).

[Bolla]

Hay I got an ideal.. you know when you fight them in the level 20 capped battles and when they hit you you take extra damage right?
how about we do the same? if we get like a fire weather and we see 2 fire icons on our screen why can't we do extra damage like the boss do?

[Rain_Blade]

Hay I got an ideal.. you know when you fight them in the level 20 capped battles and when they hit you you take extra damage right?
how about we do the same? if we get like a fire weather and we see 2 fire icons on our screen why can't we do extra damage like the boss do?

Yeah I've seen that come up a lot. It wouldn't hurt to make it happen. I just hope January is really gonna be a goo update for Summoners. It might make me come back to the game.

[Bolla]

I have another update ideal , summoners should have a new job trait.
This new job trait would allow a summoner avatar to have x amount of health points on there weather day and less x amount health points on there weak day.

[Thoris]

i think smn should be more like puppet master. We ether have a big upfront cost to smn and then we are able to keep our smns out to melee.

If SE would allow this we would be to become a true DD with Spike dmg.All they would need to do is increase there melee attack and acc.


coming from playing pup to smn is very hard because i am used to my pup do more dmg and having it out at all times.

[Tsrwedge]

I have another update ideal , summoners should have a new job trait.
This new job trait would allow a summoner avatar to have x amount of health points on there weather day and less x amount health points on there weak day.
This sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

[Malacite]

Well the other thing is, even though the avatars can be recast right away if killed, this is not justification for their weak battle stats as some people think it is.

Of all the pet jobs, SMN is the most frail, ill-suited to combat of them all and as such should really have strong pets. I just can't push it out of my head that a BLM can out perform an avatar. In the long run against a single target sure, but I really think SMN should have much higher spike damage potential and over-all increased avatar performance.

[Bolla]

Another cool thing I wanna see
Titan mitts,
Shiva mitts,
Ramuh mitts,
Fenrir mitts,
Diabolos mitts,
Leviathan mitts,
Garuda mitts,
and carbuncle, which I already seen,
Food for summoner and a little more armor pieces. If only I knew how to summit
my ideals to SE......

[IfritnoItazura]

Too many mitts. You already need eight (HQ) staves... :biggrin:

* * *

What would be nice is equipment and/or job abilities to increase melee damage and accuracy of avatars. S-E did say how it never intended for every SMN to just Summon, BP, and release ASAP, after all.

Maybe a "Souleater" type ability for SMN? Consumes SMN's HP for additional damage and/or accuracy for the avatars' melee attacks. Call it, um... I've no idea what to call it. A "seal" job ability to increase potency/accuracy of BPs wouldn't be bad, either. ("Evoker's Seal"?)

(Has to be HP if it consumes anything, since SMN's MP is already stressed enough from leaving the Avatar out, and changing perpetuation cost could really mess up many existing equipment.)

* * *

Do all avatars move at the same speed? If so, a subtle increase to one or two avatars' movement speed combined with a few pieces of new equipment may give SMN new options in the kiting game.

[Eiyoko]

Another cool thing I wanna see
Titan mitts,
Shiva mitts,
Ramuh mitts,
Fenrir mitts,
Diabolos mitts,
Leviathan mitts,
Garuda mitts,
and carbuncle, which I already seen,
Food for summoner and a little more armor pieces. If only I knew how to summit
my ideals to SE......

While not a bad idea, the last thing we need is to clog our inventories more than they already are.

[Malacite]

I like the idea of HP being sacrificed. I mean hell, what do you think they're called blood pacts.

[Bolla]

I like the idea of HP being sacrificed. I mean hell, what do you think they're called blood pacts.
Yes thats correct they should drain their hp bar and not use our mp, but the 2 hour should stay the same.

[Bryn]

I've seen suggested, and like, the idea of additional BP commands similiar to Ward and Rage. For instance:

Blood Pact: Soothe
Healing Ruby
Healing Ruby II
Whispering Wind
Spring Water

Blood Pact: Cripple
Sleepga
Slowga
Lunar Cry
Lunar Roar
Nightmare
Ultimate Terror

Or alternatively, Blood Pact: Tetra. This would control the Lv II and IV spells. So you could do a physical BP, and MB a spell as well, with the TP you've built up.

With 4 Blood Pact commands, a Summoner could do 4 things a minute: Buff, Debuff, heal and deal damage. They'd spend most of their time summoning and controlling their avatar, and only do a little backup healing in between BPs.

Other things which would fix SMN:
Auto Refresh II - Addresses the perp cost issue and mana consumption issues
Enspell - The primes have them. Let them do enspell damage of the appropriate type, that's equal in damage to their normal melee hit. Addresses the issue of avatar melee damage not being worth it, to remove the "Summon, BP, dismiss" issue. Could build TP now, and in conjunction with BP: Tetra, have free room to MB.

[Pteryx]

There really aren't enough heals to justify your Blood Pact: Soothe suggestion, IMO. The idea of further subdividing Rage into the physical and magical pacts, though, would certainly have impressive enough results to make people take the idea of summoner DD seriously below 70, and make the merit pacts worth getting above 70. (No need to limit it to just the wussy black-magic-alikes, after all...) -- Pteryx

[Bryn]

Yeah, I realize that. The thing was, I just wanted a Summoner to have more than 2 things to do every minute, and to have those healing BPs available if needed, regardless of what Ward was used.

And perhaps Cripple might not be as useful. I had hoped it would mean we'd have something available, like Fenrir's dispel, when we needed it. Not be screwed for a minute because we just used a Ward.

If we could split Rage and Wards again, somehow, into 4 commands, that would be enough. Taking the magic BP's out and into Blood Pact: Tetra, would accomplish this. LVII and LvIV spells, as well as the Lv75 merited ones.

[Eiyoko]

Having more Blood Pacts to do every minute is both good and bad. Good because we can do more than just two things at a time, and bad because it'll probably eat our MP alive.

[Bryn]

That's the whole point; to open up more options. You don't have to do more than 1 thing a minute if you don't want to. But right now, there are a lot of BPs that go unused because you can't spare a BP command, since the same few BPs are good.

But what if you could use predator claws to both damage and build TP, then start an SC with Claw, and finish it off with an aero IV MB? MP issues can always be addressed with consumables.

[Pteryx]

MP issues can always be addressed with consumables.

Not in XP parties, they can't. People just don't have enough inventory or gil. If consumables were enough to solve the MP problem, they never would have needed to give RDM Refresh in the first place, and refreshers wouldn't be absolutely required for high-level parties in order for them to spend more time fighting than sitting. That's not even getting into the meleeburn paradigm...

Of course, if you're on some bizzaro server where there's a ninjutsu that restores MP without inflicting Medicated status so you can go /NIN and pop toolbags of 99 Ether-alikes that cost the same as Shihei, by all means, tell me what server it is. -- Pteryx

[Bryn]

I'm referring to the fact that, if there comes a situation where you need to spam BPs (assuming 4 BP commands), you can back it up with meds. Assume Dynamis-like events, HNMs, missions, etc. Although I have partied with people who bring mats for pots or drinks, and make them in the xp party. They'll keep a drink on themselves, and take the occaisonal ether or something to keep chains going.

Hell, RNGs and NINs spend a ton to xp/merit. So it's not like it isn't precedented.

[Eiyoko]

Hell, RNGs and NINs spend a ton to xp/merit. So it's not like it isn't precedented.

That's because to actually do what their job specializes in they actually need that kind of thing. Ammo, ninja tools...kinda required for the job to do what it does best.

As summoner, I've learned to use what I have to the best of my ability. Also, the more MP you spend, the longer it takes to heal it back up once it's all gone.