Seriously considering PUP/DNC...

[xiozen]

ok.. I stopped leveling pup at 64, mainly because of the many reasons we've all discussed and hashed over and over as issues with the job... since the stat updates for the automatons was released, I've noticed significant boosts in many areas--this has helped significantly... however, now that DNC is out... I'm now looking at going back to the PUP and finishing it up to 75, with DNC as a viable subjob.... here are some of the benefits:

PUP already get these job traits:

Job Traits
Level Name
10 Resist Slow
20 Evasion Bonus
25 Martial Arts
40 Evasion Bonus II
50 Martial Arts II
50 Resist Slow II
60 Evasion Bonus III
70 Resist Slow III
75 Martial Arts III
75 (Merit) Fine-Tuning
75 (Merit) Optimization

Dancer Job Traits
Level Name
15 Evasion Bonus
20 Resist Slow
25 Subtle Blow
30 Accuracy Bonus

Level Sambas
05 Drain Samba
25 Aspir Samba

Level Steps
20 Quickstep (lowers target’s evasion – so ya hit more often)
30 Box Step (lowers target’s defense)

Level Flourishes I
20 Animated Flourish (Provoke)
30 Desperate Flourish (Weighs down target)

35 Drain Samba II

Level Waltzes
15 Curing Waltz
25 Divine Waltz
30 Curing Waltz II
35 Healing Waltz

Level Jigs
25 Spectral Jig (Sneak and Invisible -- Wo_OT)

This is of couse dependent upon a few things such as how effective these dances will be as a subjob... but looking at the strengths, I think they completely outweigh any of the drawbacks. (Not to mention our Automaton as full str and magic!!!)

I'm excited... dancer is lvl 10 so far... 27 levels to go to test this out... if anyone can provide any feedback as a high lvl pup/dnc... please feel free.

Thx guys!! and good huntin'

[Malacite]

Idk about PUP/DNC, but just a few days ago I started a DNC/PUP trend. A bunch of people on my server saw me kicking ass with Serenade and it looks like it caught on o. O

[Xhaztol]

Hell, I'm starting to consider RDM/DNC because I'm so tired of sitting in the back healing. I'd still have all the essentials of a RDM coupled with healing dances and drains and...well, I'd just need to wear some DEX gear and I THINK it could work :( I can dream...

[Sabaron]

Idk about PUP/DNC, but just a few days ago I started a DNC/PUP trend. A bunch of people on my server saw me kicking ass with Serenade and it looks like it caught on o. O

<20 I sub PUP a lot. The maton is really nice for low-level soloing--screw everyone else. 90% of the parties I get 10-20 suck worse than soloing anyway.


Hell, I'm starting to consider RDM/DNC because I'm so tired of sitting in the back healing. I'd still have all the essentials of a RDM coupled with healing dances and drains and...well, I'd just need to wear some DEX gear and I THINK it could work I can dream...

I think that move will just make you less popular. You'll just be up front, healing instead. It doesn't matter where you position yourself. You'll still be casting so many spells (in XP) that it's almost pointless to melee. There are, of course, special case exceptions, but generally speaking--you have too much work to do to melee and be a RDM in XP at the same time.

[Aamalthea]

[Insert 2 gil from a lowbie here]

I plan to be a Pup/Dancer. Mostly because I love Dancer and don't want to give it up, and I love Puppetmaster and don't want to give it up, plus even at low levels (I'm 13 Pup and 17 Dancer atm) it's fun. I can only imagine it gets even better, when I solo my Dancer, I'm a Pup/Dnc and I have even less downtime, plus I get to have my puppet with me.

I know not that much about all the facts and the numbers and all that mess, I just know it's fun.

[xiozen]

Well, my dancer is lvl 32 (half-way to lvl 33 atm). 4 1/2 levels of experience remain before I can retire my Dancer job and go Pup/Dnc permanently. I'm excited. Dancer has some awesome abilities and to be able to use those on my puppetmaster just makes me giddy!!!!

[postman]

Yeah i think PUP/DNC would be a great choice just think of the gil you could save sneak/invising yourself being able to voke at the critcal moment true it may not be as powerfull as the real one but still at one point it will save your puppet. having DNC as are sub greatly would increase the odds of pup getting picked to join groups so what if we have to heal a little or use a little tp are WS miss alot anyway because of our poor HTH skill so why not become what we are a support class SE is never going to give use or boost up are autos to the point where its as good as other jobs we would be to strong.

if anything pup/dnc tho it may not be "the best" for letting us do the most damage but i belive it will help us get to 75 faster.

or PVP pop out the auto and sneak/invis yourself and let your auto beat the player down wile he looks for you. lol

[Icemage]

I think this is one of the best new combinations of jobs to come out of Wings of the Goddess (right behind WHM/SCH). Puppetmaster TP attacks aren't so amazing that you'll miss using them, in favor of actually doing something useful with the TP, and they certainly do hit harder than Dancers even if they miss a bit more.


Icemage

[postman]

The only other sub I would consider would be corair because are pet IS are job even a little boost is great for the little guy. /war is good in all and the attacks are a bit stronger but man fighting IT++ you as the player cant hit anything so why waste it when you could be giving help to your automation thats more then 50% your damage.

thats my 2 gil.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If you're subbing /DNC to save some gil on oils and powders, that's pretty sad. That shit is sooooo cheap these days Mages and Dancers can pretend these abilities are gonna save them gil in all situations, but at the end of the day, Oils, Powders and Tonko are more effective because of the cost.

I've found Spectral Jig to be every bit as flakey as Camoflage. its a nice pinch ablitiy, but that's it. If you sub DNC for saving money on something like a CoP mission, I'll just find someone better prepared for the mission as opposed to a walking liability.

PUP/DNC has a lot of good reasons behind it, the only visible weaknesses being lack of protective magic and Stona. You also won't be able to remove BRD debuffs from allies, but those aren't common EXP mobs anyway.

/DNC has good applications for a lot of melee-based jobs, though I still find the idea of RDM/DNC the fastest way to get you kicked from a PT.

[postman]

I havent played FFXI in a year so i havent a clue what power/oil costs. im hoping to come back soon with WBC.

[Neomage]

PUP already get these job traits:
Job Traits
Level Name
10 Resist Slow
20 Evasion Bonus
25 Martial Arts
40 Evasion Bonus II
50 Martial Arts II
50 Resist Slow II
60 Evasion Bonus III
70 Resist Slow III
75 Martial Arts III
75 (Merit) Fine-Tuning
75 (Merit) Optimization
Dancer Job Traits
Level Name
15 Evasion Bonus
20 Resist Slow
25 Subtle Blow
30 Accuracy Bonus


Note that the bolded abilities will not stack. If you have two Evasion Bonus Is, it only counts, as Evasion Bonus I.

That said, since your 60+ already anyway, the Subtle Blow and Accuracy Bonus will help your melee (how much though, I wonder?) but the various dances will help you play a better role in a party, as support jobs are always needed over pure DDs.

[xiozen]

Now that I have lvl 37 dnc and have been able to successfully play pup/dnc I can make the following observations:

I love it!
\
Granted its not as powerful as subbing war or sam in terms of providing greater dmg over time...however, (talking specifically from the master's perspective) but adding the dmg from the Auto and the Master, it's awesome. I can't think of a better combination... i love it!

I highly suggest leveling dnc to 37 to sub this all the way to 75... it's pure gold, for a variety of reasons.

^_^

[Sabaron]

...PUP/DNC has a lot of good reasons behind it, the only visible weaknesses being lack of protective magic and Stona. You also won't be able to remove BRD debuffs from allies, but those aren't common EXP mobs anyway....

The best way to main heal as PUP is to use the White Turban head with Stormwalker. The maton can do almost anything a regular WHM can and they don't even need to monitor the chat log to use -na spells. PUP/DNC with WHM automaton is much better than PUP/WHM with WHM automaton. PUP is swimming in TP and their MP pool is very small. PUP gets much more mileage out of meleeing and using TP to heal than sitting in the back and resting (/healing makes the maton sit too).

Also, Stona? There's like one XP mob that uses Petrify and it's Lizards in the Den of Rancor which I've never seen anyone but GS doing... Can't White Turban use Stona? It's only 39th level and it casts other spells of higher level than that. I haven't seen a complete spell list for White Turban but I've seen confirmation of -na use. Also, only WHM main can naturally cast Stona (unless, as I mentioned, Soulsoother can whip it out at higher levels). I'm also wondering if SS doesn't use Erase...

Depending on how high the -na spells rise, PUP/DNC with Soulsoother could be a very competent main healer save for the lack of Raise which can be used by a back-liner (like your BRD) or even a Paladin tank post 50. If you have a /WHM backliner, they can easily toss out a nice Protectra/Shellra for you.

I think PUP/DNC w/ Soulsoother makes a very good bid for a main healer at 40+ (when the PUP has the option to take Soulsoother). It definitely gives SMN/WHM and BLU/WHM a run for their money with the self-refreshing maton (with convert) and TP > HP conversion. It can't obviously beat WHM for certain applications, but WHM is the healer job.

[Clever Ninja]

He must be confused on something and meant something else besides Stona I believe. You can't get Stona by subbing WHM, it's a level 39 ability. Most likely meant Stoneskin, which IS a loss from not subbing WHM.

Either way, in solo cases the status cures are a moot point because unless it's something that incapacitates you, Divine Waltz is available(and even then if it incapacitates you then WHM sub would be pointless.) In a party unless the PUP is specifically being asked to come as a main/backup healer then WHM sub is pointless and the topic on the PUP's subjob isn't even in the question. For normal party play /DNC is the way to go, or even solo play. I've seen several PUP/DNC's on Hades soloing with great success.

[postman]

Was it hard to get the BLM frame and head or costly? you get it at same place as others?

[IfritnoItazura]

Was it hard to get the BLM frame and head or costly? you get it at same place as others?
This page should have links to heads, frames, attachments, and the condition for obtaining them, etc., directly or indirectly: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Puppetmaster

[Celeal]

Last night I formed a level 67 ~ 69 party with a PUP/DNC in it. The party setup:

lvl 68 PLD/WAR, lvl 67 DRG/SAM, lvl 67 WAR/SAM (me), lvl 69 DNC/NIN, lvl 68 SCH/WHM, lvl 67 PUP/DNC

The camp is at Mamook Ja staging point, killing Sea Puks.

Note: Low IT mobs, variation of traditional party structure.

The PUP was the last member who joined the group. I explicitly asked the PUP to fill-in support role with his healer automation in the party, so there is no confusion. I requested the PUP to use either PUP/WHM or PUP/DNC, he selected PUP/DNC.

My conclusion: PUP/DNC teams up with a mage/WHM is complete.

Observation of Party member play style:

The PLD/WAR is a traditional defensive tank: full AF and DEF+ food. His own MP recovery is excellent --- 3 MP per tick during battle, and 4 MP per tick in between battle (swap in V. Cloak). I don't examine others gear, so I assume he is using Parade Gorget + Sanction Refresh.

The DRG/SAM was using sushi, Scorpion Harness and a mix of AF (I don't examine others gear), major damage output for the party as expected.

The DNC/NIN had a Maat Hat and Joy-toy. When he leveled up to 70 during the party, he switch to those equipment. He seems doing a great job for DD + support. (I don't know the full potential of DNC at this moment yet)

SCH/WHM --- This is my first party with SCH. He was main healing most of the time. At the last few chains he start to nuke and heal.

WAR/SAM (me) I was puller, and basically Full Break at beginning + later Raging Rush. I was using attack food most of time.

PUP/DNC --- healer pet, very impressive: never runs out of MP, and /DNC bridge the gap when the pet casting timer is not up. He tried to test using the BLM head for a few battles, but doesn't work out.

Everyone in that party leveled up except me ^^;

P.S. > The DVS parser I was using does not work. Since I haven't use parser for months, the parser version I had is outdated (Ver 1.7.2). So no parser data on this party T_T. Does anyone has any suggestion of parser that I can use?

[xiozen]

Awesome post regarding you party w/ PUP/DNC.

So far I've leveled from 64 to 68 just doing Campaign battles. As soon as I hit 70 I'll switch to using the O-Hat, Boxer's Mantle and Hades Sainti... we can also pick up Drain Samba II and Healing Waltz, in addition to Resist Slow III... so I can't wait to test out those items/abilities to see what the impact will be on my performance.

As a PUP/DNC I can say we can make a significant difference in a party, depending on set-up of course.

I'll probably start making parties for experience when I hit 70... I wanna wait til I can equip the items previously mentioned...since they're just sitting in my Moghouse collecting dust.

I'll keep you posted as I continue levelin'.

[Silent Howler]

I started using pup/dnc as soon as I hit level 30 and I have been enjoying it very much. Even before level 30 Drain Samba is a nice little bonus, but I would still go with mnk until 25 for Martial Arts. Considering the fact that I'm a mithra, I think I can get more out of going pup/dnc than say pup/war and trying to dish out as much damage as possible. The way I think of it, I let my automaton be the DD while I fight for TP (doing more damage in the process) to heal party members. It certainly makes me feel more useful to the party and not just being the automaton's puppet.

[Sabaron]

I started using pup/dnc as soon as I hit level 30 and I have been enjoying it very much. Even before level 30 Drain Samba is a nice little bonus, but I would still go with mnk until 25 for Martial Arts. Considering the fact that I'm a mithra, I think I can get more out of going pup/dnc than say pup/war and trying to dish out as much damage as possible. The way I think of it, I let my automaton be the DD while I fight for TP (doing more damage in the process) to heal party members. It certainly makes me feel more useful to the party and not just being the automaton's puppet.

Well, the real point of PUP/DNC at high level is to be The Healer. The Soulsoother is capable of handling the general white mage tasks while the master concerns him/herself with "tweaking" the results. Basically, you end up in the same place you were before... Following where your automaton leads. In the end, Puppetmaster is, more so than any other pet job, all about the pet. Like puppeteers in real life, your existence is in the background and the puppet is the star of the show. Such is the nature of PUP--if you don't like it, you've probably chosen the wrong job.

[Silent Howler]

The reason why I didn't mention Soulsoother is because I haven't reached the level to obtain it yet. At this point I can't do anything with my automaton other than making it a DD, so this is a little "moment to shine" for the actually puppetmaster and sets me apart from my automaton. Not saying I want to be the star of the show, it's just nice having a purpose of my own.

[Callisto]

Just some notes as to the effectiveness of /DNC higher up, I don't know any pups, but my LS has had one of our SAMs start coming /DNC recently in our low-man events like Nyzul Isle Assault(Obviously SAM gets alot more TP, especially considering that he's using Soboro, but the rest is still the same).

The Flourishes really don't seem to see any diminished effectiveness when used as a sub, he actually was a tad gimped(I think 30 DNC) and landed the Gravity one on Adamatoise twice, ironically enough one of coming after I got resisted on it as RDM.

Everything else seems to be at full strength, in terms of soloing I would almost lean towards using the BLM head, then using your TP to cure yourself with Waltzes, but PUP/DNC can easily main heal a merit party with the WHM head.

[Celeal]

PUP/DNC can main heal successfully.

The remain issue is, will the PUP willing to do it?

[Callisto]

I've actually partied with several PUPs that have main healed my parties recently, and I think it comes down to the same thinking I have when I main heal on RDM:

Either I can do something else, solo, go farm Diorites/Aern Organs, do a testing/epeen party with a few lax LS members, or Campaign and earn a few thousand an hour, or sometimes I can suck it up, strap on the Apollo's staff, and make 20k/HR TP burning and crank a few merits out while being bored to tears.

Which I go with pretty much just depends on my mood at the moment. I'd assume most PUPs do the same, they can solo well enough and grind it out, or they can try to hit the jackpot with a good party and get triple the XP in the same amount of time.

[Silent Howler]

PUP/DNC can main heal successfully.

The remain issue is, will the PUP willing to do it?
See back when WHM was our only option for main healing effectively, I would hesitate to fill in the roll. Now that DNC is available, I am entirely willing to main heal for a party and would gladly do so. But not all PUP's are like me.

[Lmnop]

PUP/DNC can main heal successfully.

The remain issue is, will the PUP willing to do it?

Moreover: will anyone invite them? Convincing PUPs to doesn't seem terribly hard -- if you're a PUP, you're already willing to try the path less traveled, no?

[Celeal]

If a PUP is looking for a party, it is hard to expect what the PUP is exactly going to offer --- unless you have to "conduct an interview" or explicitly request the role before you invite the PUP. But that, requires the party leaders to have extended knowledge of how to play a PUP, in which, is not always the case.

Just like those "DD-only" BLU, a lot of PUP are "DD-only" too. My last 2 PUP in the parties I joined are exactly "DD-only" PUP.

Note: PUP with the proper automation can deal a respectable damage.

[Sabaron]

If a PUP is looking for a party, it is hard to expect what the PUP is exactly going to offer --- unless you have to "conduct an interview" or explicitly request the role before you invite the PUP. But that, requires the party leaders to have extended knowledge of how to play a PUP, in which, is not always the case.

Just like those "DD-only" BLU, a lot of PUP are "DD-only" too. My last 2 PUP in the parties I joined are exactly "DD-only" PUP.

Note: PUP with the proper automation can deal a respectable damage.

Well, you shouldn't really have to conduct and interview. There are two easy ways to advertise it. The first is obvious, put it as your sub by default. The second is to use /seacom.

I know I would advertise the crap out of it if I had it as a way to get into higher chain XP groups.

[xiozen]

If a PUP is looking for a party, it is hard to expect what the PUP is exactly going to offer --- unless you have to "conduct an interview" or explicitly request the role before you invite the PUP. But that, requires the party leaders to have extended knowledge of how to play a PUP, in which, is not always the case.

Just like those "DD-only" BLU, a lot of PUP are "DD-only" too. My last 2 PUP in the parties I joined are exactly "DD-only" PUP.

Note: PUP with the proper automation can deal a respectable damage.

Thank you for this observation...

I recently partied as a lvl 70 PUP/DNC with a party in Bibiki Bay. The party set-up was: PLD, BLU, BRD, RDM, me, WAR. I observed that the RDM and BRD were both /WHM.. so as far as I was concerned, the PLD had decent support healing and -na's. We fought Catapuloues (basically high lvl Dhamels) and 2nd-tier Goblins. Since the healing was covered, I used BLM puppet (it's magic skill was a little low, since I hadn't used it all that much--but it was using Stone III, by the time we finished, it was using Water III). The resists to Stone III were very noticeable--it did decent dmg without me using Icemaker, generally around 180 or so, when it resisted the nuke only did about 20-30 dmg. However, when the puppet skilled up it's magic high enough to start using Water III, dmg went primarily unresisted and was doing between 260-300 per nuke. I didn't notice any resists with Water III though. My weaponskill (Howling Fist did between 200 - 300) after my puppet got Water III it was the puppet that ended the fight more often than not. But the fights went FAST. Warrior did impressive dmg but I think I was close behind that, (no parser was available), between the dmg I was doing, my weaponskills, and the puppet's nukes...

The party noticed how much dmg me and the puppet was doing because I was getting hasted on a regular basis and my puppet pulled hate (just a couple of times) with the Water III nukes. I used Icemaker as often as I could, making the nukes hit well over 300 most times... only once I risked putting up 3 Ice Manuevers to see how much dmg a Water III nuke would do and it was 599.

I gained a ton of experience in that party... I think about 20k, cause now I'm almost lvl 71.

------Soloing with Lvl 70PUP/DNC------

I love soloing with PUP/DNC during Campaign battles... my gear:

Head: Optical Hat
Neck: Chilvarious Chain
Ammo: Oils +2
Body: PUP AF body
Hands: PUP AF Hands
Legs: PUP AF legs (until 71, when I'll wear the Prince's Slops)
Feet: PUP AF feet
Rings: Rajas and Ulthalam's Ring
Back: Boxer's Mantle
Waist: Potent Belt
Earring: Fenrir's Earring and Velocity Earring
Weapon: Hades Sainti

First and foremost, I can keep hate without really all that much effort thanks to the Hades Sainti. Then the Drain Samba II, drains 20-30 hpts per hit. Soloing the Quadav NMs during Campaign battles in Rolandberry Fields (S) is not all that dangerous, as long as they're not the Hyper NM versions.

Using the PUP WHM head did a great job of keeping me healed and landing enfeebles... not one enfeeble resisted. I'm loving this job so much. I also enjoy impressing experience parties, cause people have no idea what the PUP is capable of.

I implore all PUP's out there, if you haven't tried /dnc job... give it a shot...it's incredible.

Good luck to everyone. W00t... i'm 5k tnl... almost 71^.^

[xiozen]

Well, finally dinged lvl 75 PUP/DNC. I've decided this will be the one job I spend all my time on. I use the other jobs situationally, but PUP is my main now.... go figure after years of playing I've decided to spend all my time as a puppetmaster.

I usually level using Campaign... then skill up in the past... this is so much fun!!! W00T!