/MNK.... Um, what?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Practically every DNC is /MNK on my server right now. I don't really see the point. H2H adds delay and while Martial Arts reduces it and Haste Samba is nice, wouldn't meleeing with a dagger still be faster TP?

I levelled alongside a nearby dancer while I was swinging my dagger and I swear I was getting 3 hits for each two he did or close to it. H2H and DW both increase delay, so I don't see the benefit of /MNK or /NIN early on, though /NIN could be better with more DW traits and DW/Haste gear.

[Ellipses]

I imagine it depends on whether they're soloing or partying, and what kind of parties they're in. And whether they're getting PLed to try and race to 75. Early on, DoT with H2H and /MNK is going to be better than dagger, just like THF/MNK works so well before Viper Bite. People rushing through the levels probably aren't too concerned with Dancer's actual skills, so DoT might be more of a concern than TP gain.

[Caspian]

I'm not totally clear on the mechanics of DNC...instead of ws'ing, they use their TP for dances and such, is that right?
If thats the case and its not like Ellipses suggested (which is probably pretty right on for a lot of people just PL'ing it to 75), then a dagger with as low delay as possible would be the best bet. They're not gonna be hitting the TP floor H2H, but with a super fast dagger, they could. Other than that, TP scales to delay so it theoretically shouldn't make a difference what they do, so long as they're not whiffing constantly.

[tdh]

I believe the theory of it is that they're going to get more TP from landing 2 punches than you are from 1 Dagger. Find some Knuckles with a decent delay, sub MNK for Martial Arts, and you should be fine. From what I've heard, DNC doesn't have a horrible H2H skill, combined with the fact that most people who are flocking to DNC already have jobs and combat skills cap'd for some time.

Of course this is only the speculation of myself and another LS mate when we noticed the same thing. Personally, I would have gone WHM or BLU. But the our MNK speculation seems to have merit.

[Balfree]

From what I understand is that since MNK normally deals the most damage in the low levels, they get more out of Drain Samba, makes sense... it will probably turn into /war /nin or /thf eventually as they level up.

10 TP is hardly a problem to get, with any weapon or sub.

[Armando]

H2H and DW both increase delay, so I don't see the benefit of /MNK or /NIN early on, though /NIN could be better with more DW traits and DW/Haste gear.Multi-hit procs aside, your overall Delay per weapon will always be faster dual wielding two similar weapons than single-wielding one of them. Likewise the fact that H2H lumps its hits in sets of 2 doesn't change much.H2H and DW both increase delay, so I don't see the benefit of /MNK or /NIN early on, though /NIN could be better with more DW traits and DW/Haste gear.Since TP scales with Delay, H2H isn't going to have an advantage over daggers.

That said, daggers blow pretty goddamned hard before Federation Knife at 25. Also, according to FFXIclopedia, Dancers have D-ranked H2H and Sword (compare to THF's E H2H and D Sword.) Although I doubt DNCs can WS at a rate worth mentioning, dagger WS's totally suck 'til Dancing Edge if you're not THF main, since all Viper Bite does is double your Attack. I'm guessing they're using H2H for damage, but truth be told, like THFs, they should really be using swords, and at 25+ they should just use daggers.

They'd be better off using /RNG for the +10 Accuracy from 20-30 in my opinion. But most subs don't provide much in the 10-20 range.

[Malacite]

ppl are doing it on my server too... it's weird.

Since DNC doesn't use MP though, /MNK does give a nice fat HP boost >. >

[Icemage]

Every job below 10 benefits from /MNK, without exception - even mage jobs. Hand to Hand delay goes down dramatically from Martial Arts I and still gives nice TP return and good damage. The disparity in Accuracy starts to show past that point unless the job has native H2H skill, but it's still the fastest way to level any low level job.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The H2H rating is same as sword from what I've seen so far, I haven't really given much thought to swords yet, to be hontest, but they probably would be better for now. I did look the selection over, it seemed much slimmer than dagger selection. Dancer seems to only get knife/kukri-type daggers

Its probably true you'd see better returns on Drain Samba with H2H, I guess I'm just not seeing the long term benefits here.

[Malacite]

personally I prefer /PUP for levels 1-10.

A well geared Automaton can make for a deadly parner.

[dekarguy]

I used /MNK from 1-10 because the knives and swords availible besides Onion gear weren't selling on the windy AH.

Dancers don't have a whole lot of Knife/Sword weapons they can use, only Knifes, not Daggers, and on the sword front, can't use Wax Sword or Xiphos

Long term, H2H probably won't pan out

[Rain_Blade]

Practically every DNC is /MNK on my server right now. I don't really see the point.

You could just ask them.

[Malevolent]

You could just ask them.

the dancers I've seen and asked said because of Martial Arts...

[Cyle]

I have been soloing all the way to my current lvl which is 17 with h2h and currently equipped with Bastokan Knuckles. I have no problem gaining tp, and doing around 19-25 on toughs per fist. I usually drain about 6-10 with each hit as well. Soloing Toughs in Dunes with no downtime is fun. ;)

[Eiyoko]

As far as I see it with Hand to hand...

Pros:
Swing twice and get more TP
Swing twice to drain twice via Drain Samba
Hand-to-hand generally does more damage than daggers

Cons:
Slow swings; if you miss the daze effect will wear quickly
Slow swings; when soloing you're a bit more prone to getting smacked to death.

Just my 2 gil.

[Karinya]

I just discussed this in another thread here (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/742659-post20.html). The short version: I don't think dagger's disadvantages for THF apply to DNC, and the lower accuracy and higher delay of H2H makes it a questionable choice.

[DakAttack]

I just discussed this in another thread here (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/742659-post20.html). The short version: I don't think dagger's disadvantages for THF apply to DNC, and the lower accuracy and higher delay of H2H makes it a questionable choice.

A lot of H2H weapons have +Acc at lower levels, as well as +Atk.

[Jarre]

As posted in my Galka dancer thread (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/dancer/69379-galka-dancer-stats-etc.html) (update coming when I hit 15)

I quote my findings at low levels between dagger and H2H
After 10 mobs each H2H is averageing 12TP per round. Dagger is 5 Tp per round.

The average hit rate was 2 rounds of H2H to 3 rounds of dagger meaning total tp gain was 24 H2H and 15 Dagger. When Dagger skill is much much higher than H2H i.e. lvl 25 or higher dagger will be better.

The fact is at lower levels you only have drain samba (10 TP) i.e. you only need one round of H2H to get enough tp for. and curing waltz (20 TP) i.e 2 rounds H2H. You will find yourself soloing up to 15 minimum so you will be using your weapon skills, making combo a must with H2H (or fast blade if you so wish to use swords)

I subbed Mnk for the following reasons +VIT, martial arts and +HP giving me a good chance at tanking EM & Toughs of certain mobs. Mage subs are Meh as Galka MP is poor and I can't afford astrals!!

In party situations I think going /war and being able to share hate with a low level war or nin would be very benefitial. But up till 30 at least Mnk is your best bet.

[Armando]

Karinya: I don't think -3% hit rate's going to make or break any DNC's ability to get TP.

[Karinya]

Probably not, but on the other hand, I don't think a DNC10/MNK5 is going to attack twice with H2H for every 3 swings of a 200 Delay dagger, either. I don't think even a MNK75 has H2H delay *that* low. And when I see someone calculate their TP gain based on the assumption that they hit on every swing - especially at a level too low to wear any serious amount of acc gear - I tend to dismiss the rest of the post. Is that too harsh?


Neither weapon is actually bad - dancer is *really* strong at low levels almost regardless of what weapon you choose. (As long as it's something you have *some* skill in.)

I guess I just don't want to join what I see as a more or less mindless hate for daggers based on their *first* ws's lack of big numbers. (Never mind the fact that it's a DoT.)

Maybe I should try to find a dnc/mnk of the same level and duo (for one thing, we can *accurately* time our delay against each other)... are any of you guys on Carbuncle?

[Armando]

I guess I just don't want to join what I see as a more or less mindless hate for daggers based on their *first* ws's lack of big numbers. (Never mind the fact that it's a DoT.)It's not really mindless. It's not just Wasp Sting's sheer, horrible amount of suck (adding a weak Poison is no excuse; when it comes down to it you'll probably have one person in the party using Poison anyways, and other than that the WS is quite literally a normal dagger hit.) It's also the fact that for normal hits, daggers suck too. Their DMG/sec is just sucky. As a weapon, it more or less fails from 1-20.

Though to be fair Knife +1 has passable DMG/sec. Ever-so-slightly Better than Legionnaire's Knuckles at the same level. But a Bilbo +1 is even better, so...

As for the 2 H2H hits per 3 (200 Delay) dagger swings, if by attacking twice you mean two attack rounds, then yeah, no, that doesn't happen. Bare-handed H2H with Martial Arts 1 is 200 Delay per hand, which is the same as a 200 Delay dagger. With a weapon, it'd be slower.

[Skoal]

DNC should sub nin until level 10. That makes the most sense.

[dekarguy]

DNC should sub nin until level 10. That makes the most sense.

No good daggers before 10, no good swords before 10, lots of good H2H, and /NIN doesn't give any good job traits till 20/24

/mnk, /war, or /whm before 10 for martial arts, damage, or healing

[Armando]

The NIN sub thing was a joke, and /WAR isn't going to do much of anything for your damage from 1-30.

[Malacite]

No good daggers before 10, no good swords before 10, lots of good H2H, and /NIN doesn't give any good job traits till 20/24

/mnk, /war, or /whm before 10 for martial arts, damage, or healing

Tell that to my Bronze Knife +1 and my Automaton :P

[Jarre]

You keep refering to daggers Katrinya when DNC cannot use them. they can only use a knife and at the low levels the lowest knife delay I have found is 195 delay (and thats for a +1 knife) I also ahve +1 brass knuckles which have a lower delay and +Acc I also use Jack O lanterns to boost my +acc. I found I missed quite alot with knifes compared to H2H (even though dagger skill is capped at 80 at the moment) The/mnk subjob hlps the H2H. These are my findings useing a Galka, it could be different to othe races with less strength etc. I found that the quickest way of gaining TP was with H2H after many tests which is why i am sticking with it until the level gap between dagger skill and H2H skill is large (around 25-30) You can;t dismiss someones finding without trying them on teh same mobs, using the same gear, same race and same food.

[IfritnoItazura]

I found I missed quite alot with knifes compared to H2H (even though dagger skill is capped at 80 at the moment) The/mnk subjob hlps the H2H.

Hmmph. That doesn't make sense; /MNK should help only with DoT by reducing delay between attack rounds. Shouldn't do a thing for accuracy.

If you're not parsing it, you shouldn't claim H2H has better accuracy than dagger.

* * *

Lv.10
Hand-to-Hand: 28
Dagger: 31
> Accuracy+3 won't cover all the difference, but comes close.

Lv.20
Hand-to-Hand: 55
Dagger: 60
> Need Accuracy+10 for Hand-to-Hand to make up the difference.

Lv.30
Hand-to-Hand: 82
Dagger: 89
> Need Accuracy+14 for Hand-to-Hand to make up the difference.

[Jarre]

Ifrit, it depends on the mobs (blunt damage etc.) but with the mobs I was fighting when doing the tests (bats, worms, lizzards and sapplings) that is how it happened with my Galka. I am only going on what I witnessed, with my equip setup, sub job stats and race. I can't do anymore than that. if you can't accept a different equation to what you have found out, its not even worth sharing my findings as your too one sided. There is no solid stats that is the same in every situaiton, its all different, it just helps build a picture between positive and negative findings if people post their different experiences. I am not poo pooing anyones post on their findings, this is just how my character has dealt damage to certain mbos with my current stats.

Don't forget I am at lvl 14 and know that stats will change towards dagger skill as I level, i will fidn this out later on, but now in my current situation and earlier levelling this is how I experienced it.

[Armando]

Jarre, I don't mean to be rude, but Itazura is right. /MNK does nothing for your H2H skill, it just lowers the Delay to bearable levels. It's just how the game works. If you think /MNK was doing something for your accuracy, (and I can't think of any other way to put this,) you're mistaken about that. And if you think you missed more with daggers than with H2H, assuming both skills were capped and you weren't changing your +Acc, then you're mistaken about that too.

That's the problem with eyeballing your damage and hit rate. It's almost always wrong. I don't even trust my own observations unless I'm recording them.

P.S. Don't use Jack-o-Lanterns for soloing if that's what you were doing, you're much better off with meat jerky.

[Jarre]

If you read my post above you note I said my H2H had +acc (using brass knuckles +1) and eating Jack O lanterns. The /mnk helps the H2H as it raises the skill cap slightly there was no such post I made that /mnk added acc. if you read it that way, you have read it wrong.

[Armando]

/MNK does not raise your skill cap at all (and saying that it does is the same as saying it adds to your H2H accuracy in any case.) The +Acc on your knuckles doesn't cover the skill difference, and even with Jack-o-Lanterns, your accuracy over daggers wouldn't be so big as to be noticeable through just observation. We're talking about 2-4% difference here.

EDIT: Also, Brass Knuckles +1 doesn't have less Delay than a knife unless you're a very high level MNK with high levels of Martial Arts.

[Jarre]

Less delay than Brass knuckles NQ, I can how you misread the meaning of that, re reading it.

[IfritnoItazura]

Ifrit, it depends on the mobs (blunt damage etc.)
Damage type only changes the amount of damage (if the monster has modifier for them), not the accuracy.

Don't forget I am at lvl 14
I already listed the skill gap between Dagger and Hand-to-Hand for Dancer at Lv.10; Your accuracy+3 weapon won't cover the difference at Lv.10, and so won't bridge the difference at Lv.14 either.

but with the mobs I was fighting when doing the tests (bats, worms, lizzards and sapplings) that is how it happened with my Galka.
Being Galka has nothing to do with the accuracy between different weapon types. Your targets also has nothing to do with accuracy between different weapon types.

The only thing with anything to do what you reporting seeing is wishful thinking; you wanted H2H to work better so badly, you changed your perception to match the imagined reality you prefer.*

Unless, of course, you parsed your battles over a large number of monsters (of same type/level range for both weapons, same food/gears otherwise). No parse, no way to proving better accuracy--and no way to believe you given what we know about the game mechanism.


* Maybe H2H does work better for damage, but claiming it has better accuracy than Dagger with merely an accuracy+3 difference contradicts the accepted understanding that each skill in weapon equals 1 in accuracy at lower levels. If you want to challenge that notion, parse. (Get a friend to parse for you if you can't use a parser.) Armando can help you set up a real experiment. Otherwise, I'm calling your "result" of better accuracy B.S.

[Jarre]

Then explain to me why my knife missed more than my H2H when H2H is capped at (at 98) and Dagger (at 80) (highest skill i have in hese 2 weapons, obviously at 14 the skill is lower but the point is both are skilled past the current lvl cap of my 14 dancer)

H2H weapon = Brass knuckles +1
Knife = Apsir knife (lvl12)

[Ellipses]

Then explain to me why my knife missed more than my H2H when H2H is capped at (at 98) and Dagger (at 80) (highest skill i have in hese 2 weapons, obviously at 14 the skill is lower but the point is both are skilled past the current lvl cap of my 14 dancer)
H2H weapon = Brass knuckles +1
Knife = Apsir knife (lvl12)
Did you miss more times, or a higher percentage of the time? Five misses out of 50 is worse than 10 misses out of 120.

And depending on the length of your tests, there's always blind, random luck. The difference at that level (taking the +Acc of the knuckles into account) is small enough that it's completely feasible you'd have a really good H2H run, or a really bad dagger run, that goes against the law of averages.

[Jarre]

I missed more in percentage terms with knife than H2H. It was very rare that both knuckles missed using H2H.

[Malacite]

Lantern's aren't that bad for DNC, especially since I believe @15 they get Evasion Bonus I. With the right gear and a Jack you can get around +37~40 evasion.

Or you can take the fun way and use Juicy Muttons like I do :3 +27% attack for 4 hours! ^^b

Gotta love having lv 95 cooking

[IfritnoItazura]

Then explain to me why my knife missed more than my H2H when H2H is capped at (at 98) and Dagger (at 80) (highest skill i have in hese 2 weapons, obviously at 14 the skill is lower but the point is both are skilled past the current lvl cap of my 14 dancer)

H2H weapon = Brass knuckles +1
Knife = Apsir knife (lvl12)

Did you parse this? If not, the explanation is very simple: "Wishful thinking".

* * *

I was fighting Imps two nights ago on my RDM with sword using Squid Sushi+1 and all the accuracy gear I owned (was goofing around while duo'ing with my sister). After a few, I thought to myself "Hey, my accuracy seems pretty good!"

Then I checked the parser; my accuracy was something like 64%. Half of the melees in merit parties hit the accuracy cap on Imps (~95%). My accuracy sucked. BADLY. I fooled myself into thinking I had good accuracy because I was expecting better than normal accuracy due to the Squid Sushi. That expectation completely distorted my perception, even though I didn't want it to.

Eyeballing does NOT tell you your accuracy. Parser, or else.

[Jarre]

Nad how do i use a parser or is this a third party software to use with illegal windower?

[IfritnoItazura]

I run FFXI in windowed mode, no Windower is involved. Forgot where I got my parser, but plenty of others should be able to help. Parser does not in any way change your in-game play experience (it'd be a poor tool if it does), except maybe to cause some minor lag... Shouldn't be against the the spirit of ToS, though technically it is deciphering game data--just doesn't modify the game at all.

Remember you'll need a large number of monsters (at least 25 or 30 per weapon type) before you can determine the true accuracy. Keep as many factored controlled as possible (food, gear, target type/level, your own level, etc.).

* * *

Small differences in parse results over a moderate sample size doesn't mean one is slightly better than another--it means the difference between two (whatever these "two" are) are not truly distinguishable given the testing parameters. i.e. You can't use data like that to claim one is better than another--you can only claim "I can't tell without more testing."

[Zempten]

Then explain to me why my knife missed more than my H2H when H2H is capped at (at 98) and Dagger (at 80) (highest skill i have in hese 2 weapons, obviously at 14 the skill is lower but the point is both are skilled past the current lvl cap of my 14 dancer)
H2H weapon = Brass knuckles +1
Knife = Apsir knife (lvl12)

I'm sorry, but I find it VERY hard to believe your H2H is capped at 98 and your Dagger is capped @ 80. For one thing that goes way off from DNC's B skill in Dagger and D in H2H. For another, it goes way off from my 32 DNC/NIN that has 100 Dagger(I have 8/8 Dagger merits so I guess subtract 6 from that for 94 Dagger) and 87 H2H. Even if you had merits, at lvl 15 that's only about 2 extra skill on both weapon types. That's not going to give you those numbers.

Prove of my skill cap (hm....might need to squint to see lol. I suck at posting these types of SS):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Zempten/img_20071130_085736.png

[Ellipses]

I suck at posting these types of SS
Are those ToDs in your LS message?

[IfritnoItazura]

I think he meant that both skills would be capped on his Lv.14 DNC, not that his DNC14 has 80 or 98 skill in anything.

[Jarre]

Correct

[Aeolus]

Are those ToDs in your LS message?

Im sure anyone who HNMs knows them already.

[Zempten]

yeah, TODs don't matter anymore considering people still bot to claim. Even then other LSs have mules all over and get TODs regardless.

Back to the topic, I personally used H2H till 25. The mercenary's knife caught my attention but since I've solo/duoed most of the way, I'd prefer having the Counter JT till 25 for those Daggers. I guess I could have /NIN when I hit 24 for Utsusemi, but I didn't feel like there was a need when I was doing fine with /MNK's Martial Arts + Counter (also didn't want to run all the way from qufim to jeuno just to change SJ while duoing). Once I hit 25 I used /NIN for the extra dagger ( +2 accuracy, +5 ATK). I gave /RNG consideration for the Accuracy Bonus, but I started to PT and in a PT setting having 6 shadows to help tank is more helpful imo. It's almost impossible not to take hate when your in a PT b/c of all your Curing potential.

As far as eye balling your accuracy, the eye is easily tricked. So finding a parse is your best bet or if you record everything by hand (which is . . .very tedious). I useDVSParse, other people use other parses. It's all up to you. A simple google search or a browsing around windower.net will find you what you need.

[Ellipses]

Yeah, I just found the juxtaposition amusing. It's Friday, and I'm easily amused.

[Karinya]

Did you parse this? If not, the explanation is very simple: "Wishful thinking".
Actually, there's an even simpler explanation: he counts hitting with one fist as a "hit", rather than as a hit *and* a miss. At least, that's how I interpret this:
I missed more in percentage terms with knife than H2H. It was very rare that both knuckles missed using H2H.
It would be very rare to miss twice in a row with a knife, too (especially on EM or lower mobs). But you probably won't count your knife hits that way unless you DW. (And even then you shouldn't, although I don't want to lengthen this post with a detailed explanation of why.)

If you're going to count accuracy on H2H or DW, you have to count every fist/weapon for a comparison to SW to be valid: every round you have two hits, a hit and a miss, or two misses. (More if you DA/TA or a multihit weapon procs, but that isn't a factor at this level.) And in that time a single-wield dagger (by which I mean the whole weapon category, including knives; I thought that was too obvious to need mentioning) user has somewhere between two and three swings, each of which is a hit or a miss.

[IfritnoItazura]

Actually, there's an even simpler explanation: he counts hitting with one fist as a "hit", rather than as a hit *and* a miss. At least, that's how I interpret this:
I missed more in percentage terms with knife than H2H. It was very rare that both knuckles missed using H2H.

Er... I did not think of reading it that way. ^_^; One hit then one miss is 50% accuracy or 50% miss rate--and "lousy" by any measure--never thought of counting two swings as "one hit". :rofl:

Doesn't seem like a useful way to count things, and it's still a variation of "wishful thinking."

[Susurrus]

OK I will start by sayiing I am not using a parser and I'm only level 8 so take this as you want.

I tried /mnk and using Cesti to level 7. Used it a little while and decided to try out /war and Blind Knife +1. While I lose combo, it seems it is much more effective. The speed of attacks compared to the slow as hell H2H is insane. I get way more attacks than H2H and miss a lot less. I also noticed my damage isn't really any lower, and Drain Samba gives me the same amount of Drain per hit, so that really adds up when you're attacking that fast.

Granted it was a level 1 NQ H2H vs a lvl 7 HQ weapon, but I can't say speed wise how H2H could be better than dagger. Just because H2H gets two hits and MAYBE hits a little harder, doesn't mean its better. Dagger seems to be much better DPS, especially when you take in the drain effect.

[IfritnoItazura]

Been in quite a few Valkurm Dunes parties lately, and had dancer(s) in almost every party. All I have to say about /MNK or /anything at this point is this: If you're hitting for 0, your damage output is 0, and your TP gain is 0. At Lv.15+, that means no cures from Waltz. Hitting for 0 means you suck and fail as a Dancer!

Hand-to-Hand, Dagger, whatever--eat your attack food and like it. :vent:

[Icemage]

Been in quite a few Valkurm Dunes parties lately, and had dancer(s) in almost every party. All I have to say about /MNK or /anything at this point is this: If you're hitting for 0, your damage output is 0, and your TP gain is 0. At Lv.15+, that means no cures from Waltz. Hitting for 0 means you suck and fail as a Dancer!
Hand-to-Hand, Dagger, whatever--eat your attack food and like it. :vent:

One important point to note is that due to their low DMG ratings, daggers will hit for 0 far more often than H2H will unless you have terminally low STR. This can be a special problem in the mid-to-late 20s when fighting Mandragora, which like to Guard against damage, or against Crabs when they've got Scissor Guard active.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Believe me, I had plenty of hand-to-hand and dagger Dancers hitting for 0's in the past few days. Even before crabs throw up Cissor Guard. :rolleyes:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Been in quite a few Valkurm Dunes parties lately, and had dancer(s) in almost every party. All I have to say about /MNK or /anything at this point is this:If you're hitting for 0, your damage output is 0, and your TP gain is 0. At Lv.15+, that means no cures from Waltz. Hitting for 0 means you suck and fail as a Dancer!


Hand-to-Hand, Dagger, whatever--eat your attack food and like it. :vent:


Its very easy to hit for 0 on crabs as most jobs. Don't forget that Bubble Shower also adds STR Down, which is especially painful when Defense Boost is thrown up.

Also, Attack means nothing without STR. I think it would be more prudent to gear DNC for STR and Attack, with a modest amount of VIT, MND and accuracy gear, then eat sushi. Dancers are not real damage dealers, its more important that hits land and do enough damage to gain TP, that's the only purpose your DD really serves. Wanna WS, wait til 40 and seriously consider /SAM for 60+, so far I've only seen one DNC with the forethought to sub /SAM to this end.

Of course, there is also the option of soloing past thing like the dunes and persuing alternative camps, but FFXI players are still to stubborn/stupid/lazy to persue anything but the familar paths. I got SCH to 47 in less than two weeks, never saw the dunes, never set foot in Yhoator Jungle to level. Didn't spend much time on Mandies in Yuthunga when I was there, it was mostly goblins.

Of course, it didn't hurt that I actually scoured the WotG zones for new options, which again, players are too lazy to check out. Thier loss.

[Spinnthrift]

Actually Kitten, Str means nothing without Attack.

Base Damage = D + (aD) + fSTR(2) for normal attack which is modified by pDif.

Even with a 7 damage dagger at level 12, a Taru Blm with enough attack will hit for 1's.

[IfritnoItazura]

Also, Attack means nothing without STR. I think it would be more prudent to gear DNC for STR and Attack, with a modest amount of VIT, MND and accuracy gear, then eat sushi.
Sushi? I was talking about Valkurm Dunes...

[Lunaryn]

A parser is simply a tool that looks through chat logs as the client dumps them to disk and gleans combat information from them. They don't require any kind of intimate messing around with the client itself (in fact, they theoretically don't even need to be running on the same computer; I use a very minimal parser written in Python that runs on my GNU/Linux server, having shared FFXI's log directory so that the other system can read it.

Logs are dumped into C:\Program Files\PlayOnline\SquareEnix\FINAL FANTASY XI\TEMP under the names 0.log through 19.log. The formatting is slightly odd but mostly it's the actual plain text of the chat log.

Do keep in mind the caveat that if you can't see it, neither can the parser, so you may need to adjust your chat filter settings to accommodate it.

[Silent Howler]

After the level 1-10 grind with DNC/PUP (and boy what fun that was :thumbsup: ) the main reason why I started using /MNK was because apparently everyone else was. =/ I was hoping that after looking through this thread I might learn why, but I honestly still don't see the reason except for Martial Arts.

Looking at DNC's dagger selection, Mercenary's Knife is the first one that catches my eye. I'll probably use that once I hit lvl 20, but whether hand-to-hand is better until then, I wouldn't know.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, I've finally gotten around to pushing DNC up and, well, after pushing over 20, I decided to take /RNG and /NIN for a spin. Once for PT and for a fair bit of solo just now, /RNG would actually afford me the opportunity to eat meat while H2H would probably make me eat Jack-Os this level.

I actually have had less trouble with Ts single-weilding as /RNG than Dual Wielding as /NIN. I could definately see /NIN in higher levels where I might have to sub-tank or be bitch tank, but if I don't have to /NIN, I think /RNG is the better bet for now until DNC main obseletes the Accuracy bonus with its own at 30. I often found myself going below 200 TP as /NIN and /MNK, but seldom so as /RNG right now.

But really, the TP rate single wield with /SAM is what I'm really looking forward too.

[Lmnop]

I'm sorry I didn't see this thread sooner, as I'm also sorry I'm not at home to back up my facts but...

I found the difference in skill from HtH was almost always covered up my HtH choices. For most levels, you're around -2 to -3 acc under Dagger. Most of the best HtH choices (I'm talking DPS, here) also have acc+3 or so on them. It always covers up the loss or comes close.

I didn't want to use HtH because I hated how everyone else was. I tried Blind Knife +1 when it became available and though it has superior DPS, that's a level where you're still using TP to WS. Indeed, HtH will always be obscene in the single-digit levels (I'm finding at least part of this is the fact that HtH base DMG has a static +3 added to it -- this means very little at higher levels but severely benefits HtH users at low levels where they're only getting 1-3 from Skill -- Of course, COMBO also plays a large part in its performance).

I created a chart that mapped DPS of HtH weapons based off of DNC skill-by-level (remembering that I couldn't just consult monk guides because the Skill level was different) and compared that to Daggers of-a-level. Before 20, /mnk always wins. Even when you find a Dagger that outclasses an HtH choice, 1-2 levels later the HtH skill makes an old weapon out-do the dagger. It's kinda disgusting.

However, @20, the -10% delay really upped the DPS of some daggers... some of the way. Even the Federation knives @25 become out-done by level 20 HtH weapons by around level 28, I believe. But at that point, the skill gap is 5 points, and dual feddy knives = +4 acc. At this point, I don't think you can argue that the tp gain is worth more than the higher DPS (this is around the time I started being sole healer for 4 others).

For my part, I started subbing NIN @20 because I was trio'ing at the time And I needed the best DPS possible. I believe HtH may have caught up around 23 or so, but shadows were @24 so I stuck with it (And I use my shadows very often - as much as the NIN main in our group).

/RNG is something I had considered, but since it'd only be worthwhile for my case from 20-23, and in those levels I didn't have an acc problem... yeah, didn't seem terribly worth it.

I typically eat Rice Dumplings, btw.

EDIT: I should note that there's an irritation to /nin: with dual feddy knives, you end up with 9% tp for your first attack round, whereas HtH will get you 10, and single wield will get you 5 (with another 5 very quick to come). Slight irritation when you want to get useful right away.

Single wielding a 180 delay dagger (such as said Federation Knife) with /sam will get you 5.5 tp (according to wiki) so for every 10th swing, you get a "free" 11th. I'm not sure how that compares to DW as I've never had a good grasp on why /nin with low delay daggers creates a tp advantage. I'm betting DW doesn't give more than ~3% faster tp, though -- opposed to /sam's 10%.

I might give /sam a spin next time I exp.

[Karinya]

I created a chart that mapped DPS of HtH weapons based off of DNC skill-by-level (remembering that I couldn't just consult monk guides because the Skill level was different) and compared that to Daggers of-a-level. Before 20, /mnk always wins. Even when you find a Dagger that outclasses an HtH choice, 1-2 levels later the HtH skill makes an old weapon out-do the dagger. It's kinda disgusting.
Not if you solo on birds and bats and bees :)
(Yes, you could solo on bones - but then you lose Samba. I'm not sure how important that would be.)

[Lmnop]

true enough. And we did fight some airborne creatures at times (though never homogeneously exclusively -- Always along with other things like dhalmel, crawlers, gobs, worms... whatever else the zone had to offer).

[IfritnoItazura]

true enough. And we did fight some airborne creatures at times (though never homogeneously -- if that word can be used here
Wouldn't "exclusively" fit better?