So SCH seems to be a dud as a SMN subjob.

[Greyfist]

Thanks to the decision to have the weather-altering spells in the 40s, I can't see any sort of compelling reason for a Summoner to take Scholar as a support job. It'd suffer from the same defects as a Black Mage support job with low offensive magic skills crippling its ability to actually land spells on a target, and it wouldn't be appreciably superior to a White Mage support job on the buffs or heals. For all the noise Square made at the con about how SCH was a perfect caster support job, the abilities listed in the patch notes seem to be clear that that's far from the truth when it comes to the Summoners.

I had initially planned on hopping straight onto the Scholar bandwagon with thoughts of boosting avatar power by changing my 'personal weather' to match their element while still having most of the WHM's support ability. Once I found out that key ability would be forever out of reach of a support Scholar, however, my enthusiasm (and more importantly, my willingness to go through leveling another job to 37) curled up and died on the spot.

Can anyone see any sort of compelling advantage that a Scholar sub would offer a Summoner?

[Taskmage]

Well, to be fair .. if everyone who wanted a weather modification effect on them could just sub sch for it, who would bother with mainjob sch?

I haven't really researched what's available to sch pre-37 yet, so I can't add anything else to the discussion.

[Kirsteena]

SCH appears to be fairly useless as a sub for any job tbh.

[Taskmage]

Hmm. Ok I looked over it and yeah it seems pretty utterly useless for smn. For other jobs, subjob access to Raise is pretty nice, plus stealth spells at lower level and Drain/Aspir as a bonus. I'll be happy to get Regen II when main healing as rdm/sch if I can do without Curaga. Cutting the mp cost or casting time of AMs isn't bad for blm. Half cast time on Stoneskin isn't bad either.

[Pteryx]

Well, to be fair .. if everyone who wanted a weather modification effect on them could just sub sch for it, who would bother with mainjob sch?

I was personally hoping for two tiers of weather spells -- single-weather versions that were pre-37, and double-weather versions that were post-37. That this isn't the case is indeed a letdown, though it doesn't kill its usefulness as a sub for the three basic mage jobs... just for SMN. Regen II doesn't really make up for it, IMO.

Of course, maybe we'll be surprised and Dark Arts will give a character with no native Dark/Enfeebling/Elemental Magic skill the equivalent of an E in each or something... but at this point I'm not holding my breath. -- Pteryx

[Rain_Blade]

Scholar's spells as a subjob:

4 - Stone
5 - Cure
8 - Water
10 - Protect, Deodorize
12 - Aero
16 - Fire
17 - Cure II
18 - Regen
20 - Shell, Sneak, Blizzard
21 - Drain
24 - Thunder
25 - Invisible
30 - Cure III, Protect II, Stone II
34 - Water II
35 - Raise
36 - Aspir
37 - Regen II

No Erase. No Poisona. No Reraise. No Bar- spells. No Shell II. No Stoneskin. No Dia or Dia II. No Blink. No AOE enhancing spells for that matter. No enfeebling spells (in terms of not being in exp party...Summoners don't have native enfeebling magic so it wouldn't help in exp party).

Basically, I don't think any job would sub this. Aspir and Regen II is nice, but that doesn't replace the importance of the spells I've mentioned above.

[Yellow Mage]

White Mages and Black Mages would sub it purely for the Grimoire effects: White Mages to make their Healing spells better (and so they don't have to sub Black Mage), and Black Mages to make their nukes more potent (and so they don't have to sub White Mage . . . if they really don't want to).

For any Red Mages looking to sub it, especially all the ones who know the job as nothing but a backliner, and I mean all those who cringed when S-E stated their intent to move Red Mages to the front line: I personally think that they should just take Scholar and MAIN it, since they're so intent on being on the back line all the time.

. . . Sorry, just a side rant there.

Edit: yes, that means Red Mage is still my only passion. No Scholar for me.

[Pteryx]

...OK, so I'm eating my words. They actually delivered on their promise of effective spells subbed, and how!:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/scholar/69403-scholar-support-job-nerf-imminent.html

Despite the title, I doubt a nerf is imminent, given SE's stated goals with SCH as a subjob.

I can hardly believe it, but Rydia lives. -- Pteryx

[Karinya]

Unfortunately, a BLM/SCH won't actually have their nukes more potent... they will reduce MP cost by 10% though, stacking with their own native Conserve MP, so I guess that doesn't suck.

SMN/SCH probably won't get the benefit of Arts on their own spells. But they will get usable Aspir (on appropriate mobs), and still have decent single-target cures for 10% less MP (but no curaga, barspells, -na spells, erase, and many other spells they would have gotten from /WHM). The nukes are so low tier as to be basically useless, though; if you want to do magical damage, use a bloodpact.

[Lord Nat]

I remember reading somewhere about how they planed to make the Light/Dark Arts change the effect of spells as well.
Such as making a -ga spell have wider range and other such effects.

I am hoping they do something like this to help Sch in coming updates as with out it the job seems a little pointless as a sub...

[IfritnoItazura]

I am hoping they do something like this to help Sch in coming updates as with out it the job seems a little pointless as a sub...

Oh, I dunno... SMN/SCH will gain usable Drain and Aspir. In special fights where WHMs are available as dedicated healers, Aspir'ing MP for would seem very nice for SMNs. And, it can do that and still able to out emergency Cure III's or giving out Regen II's.

[Gwynn]

I wouldn't say its a dud at all. Being able to land B-ranked Drain and Aspir on mobs isn't anything to sneeze at imho. You still get the healing spells, just miss out on barspells, status cures, curagas, blink, stoneskin and reraise primarily. That being said, /SCH will certainly be a situational sub, such as in a party where there is already a main healer and you are strictly needed in a back up heal capacity. The ability to do Drain and Aspir actually gives SMN the ability to do something useful against the mob with their MP on their own. I could definately see SCH as a useful solo subjob in certain areas, although losing reraise stoneskin and blink could be a death sentence for me with how crazy I get at times. A RDM/WHM and a SMN/SCH might work well together, with the SMN taking back up heals and Regen II.

[Evion]

I believe Sub SCH will provide the best diversity of spells for any caster at 72+. Drain, Aspir, and Raise alone show it all...

[Akashimo]

Uhg, if it wasn't for the items we need to unlock the job, i'd be leveling it by now just to try it as a solo sub on smn and rdm <.< >.>

[Taskmage]

It only costs 20k worth of rolanberries to quest the vellum. Get a friend or two to do a couple avatar fights with you and you're there.

[Akashimo]

Oh yeah... i forgot avatar fights = 10k XD
<.<; rdm/nin {START button}
Thanks for reminding about that ;3
Task Mage's Forum Skill rises 0.1
Task Mage's Forum Skill rises to 272

[Malacite]

120x144 =17,280 gil in rolanberries >.>b

Also, BLU/SCH ftw. B rank healing magic + Magic Fruit = hory ****!

[Taskmage]

For any Red Mages looking to sub it, especially all the ones who know the job as nothing but a backliner, and I mean all those who cringed when S-E stated their intent to move Red Mages to the front line: I personally think that they should just take Scholar and MAIN it, since they're so intent on being on the back line all the time.Ok .. a bit off topic with this reply, but this comment has been eating at me.

The abilities that make rdm so desirable as a backline position are Convert, Refresh and Dispel. Arguably it's the maintainence of the latter two that make rdm next to useless on the frontline. Scholar has none of those abilities, so suggesting that backline rdms replace themselves with scholars is useless. Scholars can't do the job that rdms do. The people who play rdm as a dedicated backliner probably do it either because a) they altruistically want to enhance their parties in the best way they can or b) they are selfishly attracted to the invite rate associated with providing refresh and haste, probably some combination of the two—NOT because the like the view better from 20 ilms away. Again, scholar provides neither of these benefits. Suggesting a swap from backliner rdm to scholar is beneficial neither to the people who play them nor the parties who invite them.

I think it is more reasonable to say, if you're so intent on being able to frontline all the time, why don't you just main blue mage?

[Vyuru]

Out of curiosity, Scholar as subjob still grants access to stacked job abilities correct?

How do these work with Summoner's Bloodpacts?

If you could stack the reuse timers on Bloodpacts I could see this as being a useful sub for those Summoners who want to summon and not be a pseudo Whm.

[Gobo]

Out of curiosity, Scholar as subjob still grants access to stacked job abilities correct?
How do these work with Summoner's Bloodpacts?
If you could stack the reuse timers on Bloodpacts I could see this as being a useful sub for those Summoners who want to summon and not be a pseudo Whm.

Regardless of whether or not it works with BPs (and I doubt it does) you only get 1 charge from /SCH.

[Sabaron]

Regardless of whether or not it works with BPs (and I doubt it does) you only get 1 charge from /SCH.

Wait a minute... I get to stack JA's other than Stratagems like Divine and Elemental Seal? Are you sure?

[Ellipses]

Wait a minute... I get to stack JA's other than Stratagems like Divine and Elemental Seal? Are you sure?
No. Of course not. This was some kind of silly rumor that got started after the fanfests, because of really twisted readings of the information provided at the time.

[Taskmage]

It's only the strategems that store charges like that. The babelfish translation was ambiguous.

[Vyuru]

It's only the strategems that store charges like that.

Ok, so Scholar is useless then >.>

[Yellow Mage]

Ok .. a bit off topic with this reply, but this comment has been eating at me.

The abilities that make rdm so desirable as a backline position are Convert, Refresh and Dispel. Arguably it's the maintainence of the latter two that make rdm next to useless on the frontline. Scholar has none of those abilities, so suggesting that backline rdms replace themselves with scholars is useless. Scholars can't do the job that rdms do. The people who play rdm as a dedicated backliner probably do it either because a) they altruistically want to enhance their parties in the best way they can or b) they are selfishly attracted to the invite rate associated with providing refresh and haste, probably some combination of the two—NOT because the like the view better from 20 ilms away. Again, scholar provides neither of these benefits. Suggesting a swap from backliner rdm to scholar is beneficial neither to the people who play them nor the parties who invite them.

I think it is more reasonable to say, if you're so intent on being able to frontline all the time, why don't you just main blue mage?

This comment has been eating away at me, too.

Your arguements all state things that make Red Mage so desireable, yet the only unique thing I see there is Convert. Sure, the latter two require maintainence, but the latter two could also be handled by Bards and Corsairs equally as well (especially Bards once they get their single-target update). 'Bbq himself stated that a Corsair is keen with the Mage buffing. And Corsairs still get to DD, though it's back there with the Mages, because they use guns. (Heck, our Dispel is even subbable, for that matter.)

Which brings me to my next point: Bards and Corsairs have Refreshes and Dispels, so why don't Scholars? If you ask me, that's really the only missing piece to seal the deal with all current "backline onry" Red Mages.

I wonder why people act like they didn't hear that announcement at the FanFest about Red Mages. It makes me wonder if they were doing that whole cover the ears and "lalala not listening!" bit during that part. Red Mages are getting more motive to frontline, and while I don't necessarily advocate being there 100% of the time (I would really prefer 50%, at least), the "backline onry" school of thought really needs to be left right there: at school, with the Scholars, seeing as that's what they were designed to do.

May I rhetorically ask what Red Mages were designed to do?

These fighter mages utilize both white and black magic, as well as arts of the sword.

Though, upon closing, it is still our very first priority to Enfeeble: how else are we going to hit anything with our admittedly mediocre melee skills?

(And, if you're watching S-E, throw One-handed weapons a bone! Red Mages can't utilize Two-handers, and we certainly don't want no Staff skill [that was for Malacite >_>], so, please, write this down: 1 STR = 1 Attack for 2-Handers only, but 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy for 1-Handers only. It's a fair deal, and can't be abused by Dual-Wield. Everybody wins.)



As for the Blue Mage thing, check my sig. Or, if you're too lazy, read on . . .

Red Mages could perform many roles, including main heal. When you can do multiple things, you always end up doing what's needed most, most often.

Blue mages knew from the get-go. If the start doing "support-y" things, it's all they'll do.

[Karinya]

Ok .. a bit off topic with this reply, but this comment has been eating at me.
The abilities that make rdm so desirable as a backline position are Convert, Refresh and Dispel. Arguably it's the maintainence of the latter two that make rdm next to useless on the frontline.
Slight nitpick: Dispel works slightly *better* from the frontline - that's where you can see the monster buff itself more clearly (and spikes are even *more* obvious, you hit them yourself).

What hurts the frontline RDM is the need to be casting a lot, and the fact that at higher levels if you *do* have time when you're not casting, you may be better off resting and nuking than meleeing (even when there aren't dangerous AoEs).

Oh, and the marid in the room: staves. Overwhelmingly good for magic, horrible for melee, they compel anyone who has them to stand at a safe distance, because you're not likely to hit anyone with them and if you did you wouldn't do decent damage anyway. Give RDM an "Eight Elements Sword" that doesn't have to be swapped out and kill your TP *and* can swing in between casts and land for damage, and you'd see more frontline RDMs against a great many monsters, even with no other changes whatsoever.
Scholar has none of those abilities, so suggesting that backline rdms replace themselves with scholars is useless.
Another nitpick: SCH/RDM can not only dispel, they can dispel*ga*. And with dispel's inherent magic acc (I've seen BRD/RDMs land it), B skill isn't going to be a holdup.
Scholars can't do the job that rdms do. The people who play rdm as a dedicated backliner probably do it either because a) they altruistically want to enhance their parties in the best way they can or b) they are selfishly attracted to the invite rate associated with providing refresh and haste, probably some combination of the two—NOT because the like the view better from 20 ilms away. Again, scholar provides neither of these benefits. Suggesting a swap from backliner rdm to scholar is beneficial neither to the people who play them nor the parties who invite them.
This is pretty much true - at least 40+, which is where rdm becomes more defined as a distinct main job of its own anyway.

Right now SCH is looking uncomfortably like the original RDM - not good at anything, no real reason to want one. (And without Fast Cast, MAB or MDB, and with a worse spell list than the original RDM...)

Weather on demand is not exactly refresh and convert, party-desirability-wise. Even *with* sea obis it's only a 10% improvement - that you have to pay MP for - and the most consistently useful weather, light for the healer, is also the last one they get. Without obis the benefit is less - maybe much less - because it only activates randomly.
I think it is more reasonable to say, if you're so intent on being able to frontline all the time, why don't you just main blue mage?
Because then they might run out of MP, if a RDM isn't around to help them. BLU has an Achilles' heel too, it just isn't in their melee (or general damage-dealing) capability.

Really, if RDM could do even halfway decent damage, what would keep us from being an uberjob? We're already the kings of getting through hostile areas (*including* true-sight-infested ones) alive, can kite practically anything, second (or maybe now third) best healers in the game, one of the best at crowd control, amazing endurance, stealth spells, unique and desirable buffs, two of the game's most crucial debuffs (Silence and Dispel)... damage is almost the only reason we need party members at all. *And that's all without subjob*, giving us free choice of many other useful abilities.

[Bryn]

Indeed, the possibilities seem interesting. A reraise II hairpin solves the reraise issue. They mentioned in an interview to giving blink and stoneskin to SCH, although we have the avatar versions so it's not that big of a deal.

You'd gain aspir, nothing to sneeze at, and Water II and Stone II nukes. Not bad, if you're going for damage in a party. If your party doesn't need barspells or status cures, it's definitely a possibility.

[Pteryx]

Indeed, the possibilities seem interesting. A reraise II hairpin solves the reraise issue. They mentioned in an interview to giving blink and stoneskin to SCH, although we have the avatar versions so it's not that big of a deal.

They didn't actually say SCH is getting Blink and Stoneskin. The way it's phrased, I personally suspect that they're going to give SCH something new instead. Also, reraise items do cost you, and are available to anyone anyway, even DRKs. :P -- Pteryx

[Bryn]

Well, when I solo, I use a reraise II hairpin, rather than Reraise I from my SJ. Trying to save as much xp as possible if something does go wrong. Money is easy enough to make.

Regardless, SCH seems pretty good when you don't need to worry about curing statuses.