Front line RDM in update.

[Richie]

SE said they were giving RDM more abilities that would allow them to move to the front lines and they did! Only it comes in the form of /dancer!

http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26184

Sambas
These dances imbue melee attacks with special enhancements.
Drain Samba (Level 5)
Aspir Samba (Level 25)
Drain Samba II (Level 35)

Waltzes
These dances cure and remove ailments from party members.
Curing Waltz (Level 15)
Divine Waltz (Level 25)
Curing Waltz II (Level 30)
Healing Waltz (Level 35)

Steps
These dance steps enfeeble enemies while granting access to finishing moves.
Quickstep (Level 20)
Box Step (Level 30)

Flourishes I
Powerful dance steps that can only be used after earning finishing moves.
Animated Flourish (Level 20)
Desperate Flourish (Level 30)

Evasion Bonus (Level 15)
Resist Slow (Level 20)
Subtle Blow (Level 25)
Accuracy Bonus (Level 30)

These dances enhance your own abilities.
Spectral Jig (Level 25) (i think it's sneak/invis)


This is just the subbable stuff.

It would seem like the only nerf they get by being a sub is reduced finishing moves.

And not with the new gobbie bags I'll actually be able to carry a melee set.

[Ellipses]

In order to do dances you need TP. To get TP you have to not switch weapons out constantly. Unless there's also a new weapon that negates the need for elemental staves, /Dancer doesn't turn RDM into a viable front-line job.

[Aksannyi]

Gotta agree with Ellipses there, while it will be fun in some situations, I don't see myself subbing Dancer all the time and whacking the mob in parties. Not that I actually party on RDM anymore, anyway, but that's beside the point.

[DakAttack]

In order to do dances you need TP. To get TP you have to not switch weapons out constantly. Unless there's also a new weapon that negates the need for elemental staves, /Dancer doesn't turn RDM into a viable front-line job.

Being a front-line job negates the need for elemental staves.

[Richie]

If you need elemental staffs to land spells on merit mobs you need to take a serious look at your gear. Also who enfeebles in merit parties?

[Ziero]

Actually, a lot of this might help out small pts with melee classes. Things like 2-3 member Pts with no real tank, Melee could use the TP dances to heal themselves and others. Things like Thf/Dnc may become far more effective in these types of small group settings. Though I doubt a TP dependent job will be all that effective for an MP based job.

[Aksannyi]

Oh this is assuming you actually merit. I don't. I really only use RDM anymore in sky and Dynamis.

[Richie]

Actually, a lot of this might help out small pts with melee classes. Things like 2-3 member Pts with no real tank, Melee could use the TP dances to heal themselves and others. Things like Thf/Dnc may become far more effective in these types of small group settings. Though I doubt a TP dependent job will be all that effective for an MP based job.

I don't really see a THF who wants to save their TP for SATA wanting to blow it on dances. The reason I like RDM/DNC is that it covers all the reasons why I sub WHM in merit (assuming the status cures cure everything) and my WS blow but my TP gain is fast thanks to Joyeuse.


Oh this is assuming you actually merit. I don't. I really only use RDM anymore in sky and Dynamis.

Well if all you do is cure-bot sky and dynamis you really don't care about front line red mages at all then do you?

[Aksannyi]

I've never cared about being front line red mage. All I've wanted for the past year was to be able to enfeeble mobs and support my other mages. Now that no one invites mages to be anything but curebot/hastebots anymore, RDM just isn't as fun.

[Ziero]

I don't really see a THF who wants to save their TP for SATA wanting to blow it on dances. The reason I like RDM/DNC is that it covers all the reasons why I sub WHM in merit (assuming the status cures cure everything) and my WS blow but my TP gain is fast thanks to Joyeuse.

In a 2-3 man setting against EM-T mobs for missions and quests? I'm not gonna be worried about TP gain when I can use Drain-Ga and save the few, if any, healers some MP. Especially with an Acc bonus and other useful dances that can be used every 2-3 hits, it would make those small group scenarios a lot safer.

[Icemage]

If you need elemental staffs to land spells on merit mobs you need to take a serious look at your gear. Also who enfeebles in merit parties?
Eh... Sleep/SleepII? Silence? Pretty important enfeebles if you ask me. Sure, you're probably not tossing out Slow/Paralyze I/II, but that doesn't mean you don't have enfeebles that you generally need to stick.


Icemage

[Richie]

In a 2-3 man setting against EM-T mobs for missions and quests? I'm not gonna be worried about TP gain when I can use Drain-Ga and save the few, if any, healers some MP. Especially with an Acc bonus and other useful dances that can be used every 2-3 hits, it would make those small group scenarios a lot safer.

I often duo with a thf and some times trio with a thf and pld and it's usually the thf tanking (the pld has warrior 75 now though). Don't try to say "omg that must be a bad pld" it's just that thf hit really good on stuff that's not IT and they soak up less of my MP.

My point is that in a trio mission/nm setup it's usually the thf that's tanking and a thf tank wants shadows. It's even easier for thf to tank now that they have accomplice.

Now a blu/dnc tank at low level might be something to write home about.



Oh and to Ice, try sleeping a mamool with no staff on. It's not that hard, especially if you have merits.
Silence is another story but I wouldn't mind dumping my TP once every 10 pulls considering how fast you can get it back with a Joyeuse on.

[Pteryx]

To me, the big thing that'll make /DNC a viable sub or not is whether their sambas will stick while subbed. If they do, then we have something we can work with -- Aspir Samba. Of course, we still have other, bigger things keeping us away from the front line -- the fact that we have to basically constantly be in mid-cast and can't swing a weapon during that time, for one thing -- but it'd be a start. -- Pteryx

[BurningPanther]

Propostions of updates for RDM sounded weak at best, because Considering magic to allow RDM to move up to front lines. sounded just like Adjustments Planned: Will continue to find ways to put Red Mages in positions where they are required to be ready for anything. ... in short, they still don't have a clue as to what to do with us. They don't really care to nerf us, but they recognize the job may have become a bit stale and--for for quite a few nowadays--unplayable.

There's also the recognition that the way it's played isn't quite what they intended, so it's comforting they are trying to move back to that, even if they haven't the slightest idea how.

But my patience has it's limits.

[Richie]

To me, the big thing that'll make /DNC a viable sub or not is whether their sambas will stick while subbed. If they do, then we have something we can work with -- Aspir Samba. Of course, we still have other, bigger things keeping us away from the front line -- the fact that we have to basically constantly be in mid-cast and can't swing a weapon during that time, for one thing -- but it'd be a start. -- Pteryx

I'm afraid this may be the case however in a few really good merit parties I have been in I didn't have to really do much but that's pretty rare. I guess we will have to wait to test it. If the healing and drain dance is good enough so that I don't have to use my standard cures it should work well.

[tdh]

This doesn't look like the RDM update. They said these updates will come either day one (Like the SAM fix.), or in subsequent updates. /DNC, or whatever the hell it's going to be, may be useful for small Skill Up parties, but by no means will this put us on the front line.

I think once those new WS are introduced, is about the time that RDM will draw their sword.

If you need elemental staffs to land spells on merit mobs you need to take a serious look at your gear. Also who enfeebles in merit parties?In the 50's and early 60's if you can get your sheep to party in a Zilart/CoP area you will absolutely need those staves. At present a RDM could stand on the front line in a lot of instances, but we've found other ways to help the party become more productive instead.

[Taskmage]

I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread.I'm not sure what level you've gotten to yet, but from 32 to 48 the casting habits of a rdm ramp up from pretty loose to nigh-frantic. Maintaining full cycles of Refresh and Haste along with Dispels and debuffs is a full time job in itself. Toss main healing on top of that, especially if there's status effects involved, and you're lucky to have time to scratch your nose much less skewer a mob. In a meripo type situation with a whm where main healing, debuffing and a full cycle of Hastes isn't necessary, I'd pretty much just be there for Dispel, Refresh and maybe Gravity. In that case the party would really be better off leaving dispels to the bard and inviting a full-fledged DD in my place. To make that not true they would have to boost rdm's melee ability so much as to rival a pld's or at least 80% of a war or sam's output (4 Hastes worth of increase in damage), which I feel would be so generous a buff to us as to be a travesty to other jobs.

That's barring us getting some kind of support-type WS along the lines of Shield Break to allow our parties to benefit from our melee in ways other than our raw damage. That's a possibility.Unless that rosethorn weaponskill from the WotG trailer is some kind of cool break-type debuff, I still don't see us being useful on the frontlines in exp/merit past level 40. In solo/duo/trio stuff where the situation allows for me to leave the back line, I appreciate a buff a lot.

[Mhurron]

To everyone saying RDM can't because of the Elemental staves and casting endlessly for the duration of the party, yes that is true and that is why RDM doesn't melee now ...

in 6 man parties fighing VT+-IT.

SE has said they are trying to make 3-4 player parties more viable and there, yes, you would want pretty much everyone swinging, you wouldn't have someone sitting back and just enfeebling. You aren't fighting IT's, your fighting T-VT which often don't need the staves to land a enfeeble and your ring/earring/back/belt/body slots gear swap would be enough to give the spell some kick. The only problem with it now is convincing people to try it.

[Balfree]

To everyone saying RDM can't because of the Elemental staves and casting endlessly for the duration of the party, yes that is true and that is why RDM doesn't melee now ...

in 6 man parties fighing VT+-IT.

SE has said they are trying to make 3-4 player parties more viable and there, yes, you would want pretty much everyone swinging, you wouldn't have someone sitting back and just enfeebling. You aren't fighting IT's, your fighting T-VT which often don't need the staves to land a enfeeble and your ring/earring/back/belt/body slots gear swap would be enough to give the spell some kick. The only problem with it now is convincing people to try it.

I believe this to be the case aswell.

Too long have I longed for smaller parties. I hope this is it.

[Callisto]

Mhurron is correct...and not...if you're in a standard meripo and you need to swap in staves to easily land your sleeps and whatever other debuffs you have against VT-low IT, you need to have a look at your gear and macro setups, because something is off. If you can't keep a Refresh/Haste cycle up while meleeing, you need to look at your macros or skill level, because something is off there as well.

As puller I usually melee in meripo(not as main healer, obviously), and even in my melee gear I can easily land sleep on mobs like colibri when holding them on deck. The only exception really is when we do meripos @ Aura Statues when farming Diorites, those are a bit more feisty when it comes to sleep resists, but then Bind always works just fine.

I'm definitely excited to see what they add, I'm hoping it's some sort of acc+ or atk+ self-cast buff.

Until then...sweet, sweet, beautiful macro space!!!! I've been crying for more macro space for a long time now, now I can actually have full macros for my BRD and COR without taking any of my RDM ones out, and I don't have to use my PS2 to level jobs past COR now! I'm thrilled with the update for the most part.

[Icemage]

Mhurron is correct...and not...if you're in a standard meripo and you need to swap in staves to easily land your sleeps and whatever other debuffs you have against VT-low IT, you need to have a look at your gear and macro setups, because something is off. If you can't keep a Refresh/Haste cycle up while meleeing, you need to look at your macros or skill level, because something is off there as well.
Try and land Silence reliably on a Mamool Ja Philosopher without at least an NQ Wind Staff sometime. Really, try it (I did once, as I forgot my staff one time in a merit party). The results are not pretty.

As puller I usually melee in meripo(not as main healer, obviously), and even in my melee gear I can easily land sleep on mobs like colibri when holding them on deck. The only exception really is when we do meripos @ Aura Statues when farming Diorites, those are a bit more feisty when it comes to sleep resists, but then Bind always works just fine.
Colibri are easy to enfeeble as long as you aren't tossing earth or wind magic at them. But Colibri camps suck. :)

Try going without your staves on those VT++ Mamool Ja in Bhaflau. You'll be begging for your staves back after you miss a Sleep II and start getting clocked for 200+ damage a hit (or higher from those cute little Skoffins).


Icemage

[Callisto]

I have pulled Mamools easily the same way, Silence get resisted now and then, but it rarely takes me more than 2 casts to land it(blusterer's are a bit more difficult actually, philosophers are easy). I really don't have any problems with Sleep sticking either, I can't remember the last time I had a sleep resist on those on RDM. Light Shot, on the other hand, has been giving me trouble on Mamools(damn their high AGI^^;)

[Richie]

Okay so I have had a few chances to test it out. Silence isn't too hard to land on mamools. It usually lands the first time and if not the second time sticks (312 enfeebling 5/8 merits 67+39mnd). I usually have more TP then I know what to do with, the main problem is that I'm just so busy trying to do everything. Red mage is a busy job and so is dancer rdm/dnc is like trying to duobox both. :/

So far I have just used it when there was already another healer in the pt. I haven't been able to test it in the standard brd/nin/rdm merit pt yet but I'm pretty sure that's where it will shine. The most trouble I had with it was in a roaming pt on trolls. The time normally spent recasting haste/refresh was instead spent running and I was barely able to engage the mob.

[Callisto]

That really is the #1 problem I run into as a melee RDM, it's not the acc or attack, it's just that I spend soooooo much freaking time casting that I don't get in nearly as many swings as I'd like to...for RDM buffs alone, going with the bare minimum, Refresh/Haste/Enspell, you spend roughly 16 seconds out of every 2:30-3:00 buffing, then add in Refreshing/Hasting others, sleeping links, pulling at times, cures/debuffs here and there, and you're easily spending 20-40% of your time casting, not swinging. :(

[Richie]

Yeah, the only time I have felt it was really adding something and not just making me more busy is when I was duo farming with a thf.

I still need to test it in the ultimate nin/brd/rdm in colibri setup. The pts I have had so far haven't been the best.

Edit: I did a war war mnk mnk rdm brd party as /dnc and it was pretty awesome, I only had to convert once every 20 minutes or so and that was without ballad. The drain kept the HP capped most the time. In the case of emergency curing /dnc works pretty well, waltz then interupt the animation with cure IV and then waltz again when that ends, it's pretty fast with the 1st waltz acting as a buffer for you long cure IV.

More edit: Did another pt, drk sam sam74 mnk brd74 rdm/dnc, also awesome. 15k/hour it would have been higher but I think that was our brd's first time pulling there and it took him some getting used to after the death :P

I had plenty of MP to spare and ended up just burning it on Prot. IV for everyone.

Tip: Resist the urge to disengage when converting or delaying engagement to cast haste. Once that drain is down you really notice a difference in the dmg they take and end up playing catch up with the cures.

Put your box step next to your haste so you can keep them both up at the same time.

That's all I can think of right now.

[Glued]

I'm going to toss my hat into the ring here and give my 2 cents on this combo.

Ive been playing RDM my entire carear over 2 accounts an have yet to find a job i like more however this time around (returning aftera year and half haiatus following toau) things have changed. Sure we got the same old spells the same old gimped WS and no subtle blow but i never see rdm melee anymore an it sadens me. As i leveled my mage to its current 63 level i remeber only meleeing about 20 times and that was duoing with anoher rdm 1-20.

When the partied began id be kicked for meleeing saying i was usless as melee get in the back with the other mages, this made me hate parties so i went back and soloed the long road to 35. When i couldnt bear the long solo levels i partied in crawlers nest enfeebling my heart out and spamming dispel afraid to touch the mob lest i get the boot. Playing this way has ruined RDM for me i am now level 63 and still sit on the backline waiting for my call to equip my dagger or sword and go to town.

I have always kept my dagger capped i have lost alot of exp doing this by losing SS and geting beaten its always been ready for action and now i have my chance...

I hope this story has taught you something, we the players of this game did this to RDM and SE is not going to be doing anything to fix it i imaginbecause its not broken we are broken. We have been given a gift and any true red mage with the passion of the job in his heart can see it. RDM has become the biggest cookie cutter job in this game and many new players are being turned off as well as old players like myself. I am in a static and hate it cuz i cant fight i enfeeb and cast my refresh on myself and haste and the dnc brd and i cure and i sit and sit and sit and watch the battle through glazed over eyes as i die inside...

Now with dancer i have a life blood i feel the passion burning inside me once again.

The ability to cure without using MP
- priceless nothing else to say saving valuable mp for emergency cure 4's

The ability to remove all status affects before /whm gets erase
- earned early than whm only means good things
The ability to cause more DoT and conserve MP with drain Samba
- need i say more less damage you need to cure the better
The ability to Drain MP from a mob with aspir samba
- the more MP a rdm has the longer the party will survive
The ability to provoke a mob with flourish
- nin shadows down tank went suprisingly afk rdm the 2nd best damage mitigation job can easily tank if done properly
The ability to further weaken a mobs defense and evaision
- stacks to dia and gravity the steps are invaluable to a parties success
and lastly the ability to melee again with subtle blow and acc boost
- finally know one can say we are tp builders to the mob anymore.

If you cant land enfeebs post 60 without a staff run in traffic, if you cant keep refresh on yourself and the PLD tank run in traffic if you cant haste yourself the tank and the thf again run in traffic, these task are easily done while standing next to the mob hiting him while your samba (which will always stick because it basically en-spell) drain or aspir your lost hp and mp back.

and you tell me what im lossing from this /whm or /blm
/whm
-loss of mind well i happen to have + 25 enfeebling skill which is better than afew mind from this

no DS- big deal i shouldnt need to drop big cures anyhow and if i need to ill just use my TP cures and MP cures back to back

no -ra oh well guess ill put pro out on my tnak and myself like i usually do since pro 2 sucks

no reraise ill buy a pin or a scroll

/blm
-loss of int well im a taru personally not a problem

-no es i cant remeber the last time i used this for anything

-ga spells did anyone ever really use them

-warp escape well generally at this level everyone has a warp cudgel or scroll of instant warp so if things get shitty ill sleep things and head home

as for the mp loss from either job taru for the win MP gear can only take you so far

as far as the flames im sure to get i dont really care i can have fun with m rdm again now and im shedding my cookie dough im done with the whole backline shit its time we became the combat casting mage we were meant to be from day one and not a little refreh haste whore curebombing everyone to lvl 75 and merits.

[the1roy]

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[Evion]

RDM AF weapon is sword... Why does every other job get to use their AF or AF-type weapon in battles? Though I haven't meleed a T or higher in 20+ levels, I sure would like to try!