Is there imbalance between monsters and players?

[IfritnoItazura]

Players' abilities, especially those of melee damage dealers, have been steadily increased over the years. Some examples:

Two-handed weapons benefiting more from stats
Hasso
Haste/Accuracy gears
Three forms of external MP refresh, stackable
Armor with "Refresh" effect
Sushi (for substantial accuracy increase)
Various other gears
Merits
In contrasts, the monsters' performance have largely remain the same. Many players would even say the last expansion pack, Treasure of Aht Urghan, gave us monsters which are even weaker for the experience points received. (e.g. Imp with its low HP.) That, instead, has further lowered the effective difficulty of monsters, since players naturally gravitate to targets which give the best experience points per hour.

Does FFXI's development team agree that there's now an imbalance between the players and the monsters?

If so, how does the team plan to address the problem?

[Balfree]

Maybe you're seeing things backwards? Maybe SE felt there was an inbalance before so they "buffed" us up to better balance the game? I dont see much of a big difference tbh.

An Imp may have low HP, but its not like all monsters are there just for their HP, Imps are annoying for the most part, spells are pratically useless, specially debuffs.

[Skoal]

I know that the drg automaton in ENM 60 Pulling the Strings is stronger since the 2h update.

[Yellow Mage]

Don't quote me on this, but I think I remember reading somewhere that Aht Urghan mobs were intended to be more "challenging," not less.

But, then, maybe Itaz is on to something, here.

[IfritnoItazura]

Maybe you're seeing things backwards? Maybe SE felt there was an inbalance before so they "buffed" us up to better balance the game? I dont see much of a big difference tbh.
I'm asking how FFXI's development team views the balance between monsters and players, not how I (or you) should look at it. The question isn't one meant for the pundits.

An Imp may have low HP, but its not like all monsters are there just for their HP, Imps are annoying for the most part, spells are pratically useless, specially debuffs.
Paralyze lands decently enough since I hit RDM71 or 72. Silence is not as good, but often than not it sticks since Lv.73. Dispel is a still a pain.

The thing is, now that I'm RDM74, I find myself skipping Dia II since by the time I finish with Silence and Paralyze, the Imp is often more than half dead.

Spells are practically useless alright, since these Imps die so quickly. Call me old school, but I have to ask if S-E really intended us to exp on monsters which are not worth three spells each.

[jenova_9]

even now, mobs are still an uphill struggle for most people and parties. ya TOAU has some easier mobs compared to other spots, but that's actually a good thing, and even still there are mobs that would give a 75 some trouble, and if there's a link, it's over. maybe elitists would call them careless or scrubs
but the bestiary in the world of Vana'diel is already fierce enough as it is.
Players deserve to kick butt too without having to pick on Easy Prey to feel special.

you can run around solo in Castle Zvahl Baileys and let all the demons link, that'll help you get that old school flavor of challenge all over again. or hunt strong NMs.

There's plenty of spots to find monsters that have enough HP to shower them with your talents. If you are disappointed with monsters that fall too quickly in exp parties, then maybe you're taking your power and support and chance to net faster exp for granted. :P

there has always been an inbalance,

a single warrior can't even beat up a crab by themselves.

a party of knights gets creamed by a rabbit.

a summoner's dragon gets slaughtered by a puny mandragora.

someone fails to land a hit, several times, against a giant that's right in their face

Imbalance? This is Vana'diel, a world of imbalance.

[IfritnoItazura]

No offense, but I'm already well aware of the range of player opinions on this topic; they go from "Monsters are way too easy! Kirin goes down under 30 second is BS!" to "Exp'ing is still to tedious--make us stronger!", and just about every position in between.

I'm curious about what the people who make the game think about the monster-player balance, and only their opinions and approaches toward this issue.

[Karinya]

I think my opinion on this point is probably pretty well known to the regulars here. :) But I'd definitely like to see SE's answer. When everybody and their dog can solo "tough" monsters, there has definitely been a shift in the balance of power; but whether it was intended or not is something only SE can answer.

[Balfree]

You seriously expect people not to give out replies to your threads...? Should've asked to close the thread then.

I for one have an opinion and wether you dislike it or not, it's not your right to tell me to take a hike.

SE gave the jobs these updates because people kept asking for them, the majority of the people got what they wanted.

[jenova_9]

I'm curious about what the people who make the game think about the monster-player balance, and only their opinions and approaches toward this issue.

um I don't think SE would be open for questions if they were so conceided as to believe their views lead to the best decisions for the community. SE aren't gamers they are just people who make games as a business, there is a difference, and very few developers and publishers are aware of what the players who actually play the game go through.

If they told you their opinions, it would mostly be just from a technical standpoint what they think what works and what doesn't, not from a gaming perspective. They depend on the community to let them know if there are any serious issues that are worth adjusting.

"and only their opinions and approaches toward this issue"

what issue? imbalance between monsters and players? I think how things are and have been for like 4 years pretty much says a lot about their views and decisions concerning that.

But yeah, I too would like to hear what they think concerning monster vs. player imbalances, although I doubt they would say anything significant that would lead to a solution. But most of it is just player perspective what's balanced and what isn't balanced.

as for TOAU mobs, I feel they have less HP to make exping more bearable.

People deserve that kind of breather cause less time to beat mobs, the faster they can make some real progress.

[Armando]

as for TOAU mobs, I feel they have less HP to make exping more bearable.

People deserve that kind of breather cause less time to beat mobs, the faster they can make some real progress.Thing is, making things that give the same EXP as the next mob but with less HP isn't the only way to let us get EXP faster. They could just as easily introduce tougher mobs that give MUCH more EXP per kill than the usual IT mob, and then you'd have fights that are actually challenging, while still spending less time EXP'ing overall.

Itazura simply wants to know if they deliberately made things this way.

[Ziero]

um I don't think SE would be open for questions if they were so conceided as to believe their views lead to the best decisions for the community. SE aren't gamers they are just people who make games as a business, there is a difference, and very few developers and publishers are aware of what the players who actually play the game go through.
If they told you their opinions, it would mostly be just from a technical standpoint what they think what works and what doesn't, not from a gaming perspective. They depend on the community to let them know if there are any serious issues that are worth adjusting.
"and only their opinions and approaches toward this issue"

From what I have seen, the people who work on FFXI do so because they enjoy having people play their game for fun. Though money may be the bottom line, the people at SE *are* game players and story tellers, and they find enjoyment when people like their products.

That said, I'm sure they have a "vision" for everything they do, even if that vision is letting the players figure out the best way to do things. And I'm sure their vision for the popular EXP mobs people use nowadays, things like Puks, Colibri, Imps and Eruka, were to make mobs with high offense/enfeebles but weak defense/hp. All these monsters have real annoying specials and traits, abilities that no other mobs have. An Eruka can drop a full HP nin at the start of a fight in one attack, Colibri are *horrible* to cast magic on, Imps can stop an Exp chain by taking away everyone's abilities and WS with an uncurable status. The balance of these mobs is that they're supposed to be more dangerous offensively and in doing so lose their defenses.

It's not *all* ToAU mobs that are easier, it's just that there are a lot of 'weak', small mobs that con at highest VT. Combine that with high repop rates, and Sanctions' bonuses of +exp% and autorefresh for mages, and it makes lvling that much easier.

[jenova_9]

challenge huh? it shouldn't take more than 1-11 hits to kill anything, especially birds, crabs, caterpillars, fish, etc.

I mean are our weapons made out of whiffle bats? =P

[Mhurron]

challenge huh? it shouldn't take more than 1-11 hits to kill anything, especially birds, crabs, caterpillars, fish, etc.
I mean are our weapons made out of whiffle bats? =P
FFXI is, and was designed to be, a cooperative game.

Think about it.

[Raydeus]

The question should've been:

Are there any plans for making tougher mobs worth fighting for experience points (post Aht Urgan)? =P

The problem isn't that Aht Urgan mobs are so burn friendly, the problem is tougher mobs aren't worth the time fighting them. If this was really about all that "challenge" and "sense of acomplishment" bs that's usually thrown around when this subject comes out then people would still be fighting Conquest mobs, regardless of how many experience points per hour they got.

But that isn't the case, this is about how old party mechanics became obsolete due to the new fast chain approach to xping in terms of xp/hr rates.

So, save for making tougher, skillchain friendly mobs worth the time xp-wise I don't see this going anywhere. =/


Edit > Just a note, I'm of the idea of players having as many options available as possible, so I rather like the idea of enhancing xp/hr rates for old school xp parties without gimping existing setups.

As I've said before, I quit playing PLD because of the new ghetto DD role the job had to take because the new burn parties became the norm rather than another option, but that doesn't mean I want burn parties get nerfed.

Nothing good has ever come out from a nerf. Which is what this kind of threads always become, a "Nerf-burns and Utsusemi!" kinda thread that is.

[Omni]

I think the title of this thread should be Are you going to bring back the old style of xping of renkei/magic burts? I think that's what it really boils down to.

Some people liking/benefiting from tp burns, some people liking the old ways.

[IfritnoItazura]

You seriously expect people not to give out replies to your threads...?
Actually, just the opposite. (Why would I have chosen a topic no one cares about? Of course I was expecting and hoping for replies.)

What I want to do with the replies, though, is to direct people from just telling others what they think things should be, and instead think about what to say to S-E to get a more interesting answer. Or, put it another way: your, my, other people's personal opinions on the state of the game and the direction it should take do not matter nearly as much as S-E's.

We already have bunch of threads begging and demanding S-E to change this or that, but very few asking asking S-E's developers on what they actually thought of some aspect of the game.

So, I would like to keep the eventual question submitted "pure", if possible, in case this thread is selected.


I think the title of this thread should be Are you going to bring back the old style of xping of renkei/magic burts? I think that's what it really boils down to.
This isn't just about exp'ing, though; many of the examples I listed affected endgame--just ask SAMs about their damage output now vs. last year.

Some people liking/benefiting from tp burns, some people liking the old ways.
What does S-E like, I wonder? Would be nice for someone to ask S-E and get a real answer instead of just speculations, for once.

Itazura simply wants to know if they deliberately made things this way.
◀/nod▶

Maybe I should ask Armando to write my questions next time. :D

[jenova_9]

deliberately? no I think they must of spun the wheel of fortune to decide what gets changed. ^_^;

[Raydeus]

You spin a wheel with options, then throw a dart at it for a (/random +1) effect. ^^v

[Armando]

deliberately? no I think they must of spun the wheel of fortune to decide what gets changed. ^_^;Just because things turned out this way, doesn't mean S-E intended it so. If you told me a year ago that one of the new mobs in the expansion has AoE Silence and AoE Can't-use-JAs-or-WS, as well as being a caster mob; and that another new mob can reset TP and eat your food, I'd have thought only stupid people would bother trying to EXP off of them. Oh wait, we do, all the time.

S-E didn't intend NIN to be a tank. Or so they say. It happened anyways. I've also read that prior to NA release, Divine nukes were stupidly strong and WHM and PLD were actually being used as DDs because of it. Then Divine got nerfed to do the laughable damage it does now. Did S-E intend for WHM to be a nuker? Probably not. What about the Rusty Pick exploit, where turning Rusty Picks into War Picks was actually quite profitable, and that resulted in lots of players fishbotting for rusty picks and introducing massive amounts of gil into the economy?

S-E can try to direct our playing style, but they can't decide how we play the game. If the community as a whole had decided that crabs are the best EXP mobs, period, we wouldn't be EXP burning Imps and Colibri.

The point is, S-E may or may not have anticipated how the players would react to ToAU mobs and camps. It's perfectly valid to ask whether they deliberately made Imps fragile, or if they didn't expect players would be able to (or try to) burn-party off of them.

[Balfree]

SE overlooks some stuff for sure.

[Ziero]

Well, I do believe SE stated that they wanted people to lvl in the new areas as opposed to the old ones, and that was their reasoning for the stupidly high repops on most ToAU mobs. They most likely designed mobs that would die fast, but would put up a fight while doing so. But they underestimated the power of the player base and the result is what we have now.

ToAU didn't create the TP burn, didn't even perfect it. Weapons in sky were being burned in high speed pts for a LONG time. And then Aern pets and other Sea mobs led to people being able to chain up to 200 or so with ease. And the only restrictions to do this were to do high lvl missions and the only downside is that these places would quickly become overcamped.

Making mobs in the new areas that can't be burned, but provide similar EXP gains to those who can, would be a great way to give players an option on how they gain EXP. However I would assume most players would still prefer burns because they are just so easy to do.

[Omni]

Changing the XP on mobs that are typically burned isnt a good idea either.

There are PTs out there that dont burn, as many of the people here have stated that they do. So if those PTs kill these mobs, they get shitty XP too, and they never intended on burning these mobs in the first place.

[Duncan Idaho]

To me it seems like the mages are feeling left out of exp parties towards the upper levels.

Perhaps SE could release new areas in the past with mobs that would be harder and more rewarding than the general tp burn mobs. To bring interest to this though they would certainty have to change some of the pt mechanics. Perhaps giving the magic burst alone a better damage stat or enfeeb of some sort. If this were to be the case more care would be taken to bring the correct melee weapons for the corresponding sc/mb the mobs are weak to. With this increase of damage/enfeeb this might also bring pld back into the picture to save the squishy mages like they are suppose to. If the mobs are more difficult than the standard tp burn mobs, the time between kills to keep the chain going would extend just a little, giving the pt minimal time but adequate time to gain some mp.

It would be a delicate balance to achieve this but thats what the dev team is for is it not?