What was, and is, your vision for the Red Mage job?

[Yellow Mage]

I think the title says it all.

[jenova_9]

hmm well red mage seems like it already has positive things going for it. refresh, and that most wanted debuff. I don't think they will nerf that job.

[KoukiRyu]

hmm well red mage seems like it already has positive things going for it. refresh, and that most wanted debuff. I don't think they will nerf that job.

Uhh, I don't think he was saying anything about nerfing the job at all. I'm pretty sure he just wanted to know what SE's personal opinion on RDM was/is, and if it's lived up to that today.

[jenova_9]

lol what is he getting at? is the TC satisfied with how RDM is now?

[Aksannyi]

Meaning, did the developers intend for Red Mages to be considered the primary healers in xp parties now, instead of the enfeeblers/support/debuffers we thought we were supposed to be.

I'm not saying they didn't intend for us to fill any role, as it's quite obvious that RDM is one of the most versatile (if not the most) jobs in the game. But you see how we've been pigeonholed into this "main healing only" role, and I think what Yellow Mage is asking, in essense, is whether or not that was intentional, or if this is another thing, like NIN tanking, that developed a cause de the playerbase.

I'm also wondering could we take this further, and ask if they have any intentions of fixing this "issue," and adjusting RDM so that WHM can once again become desirable by most parties. Of course, if they do that, they might as well make BLM desirable again too. ;)

These are just my musings, though ... >.>

[Karinya]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: wimpy mobs are the problem. Giving more exp/hr for wimpy mobs than for dangerous ones is what encourages people to reduce the backline and combine more non-DD roles into fewer players, and RDM is one of the few jobs that can actually do that.

If an enemy is more dangerous and you need more people that are doing something other than spamming Rampage and Utsusemi, then WHM and BLM are both good choices for those situations. (RDM still is too, of course. But their role shifts when they work with other mages instead of trying to replace them.)

[Malacite]

Personally I find it odd that RDM specializes in anything at all (other than double cast).

I'd like to see their front line ability pushed up to par with BLU, which would mean two changes.

1) A job trait to let them simultaneously cast and melee

2) A- sword skill to match BLU along with the EX sword WS (except PLD's Swift Blade of course)

A 3rd MAB and MDB traits would finish it off nicely.

[Aksannyi]

Malacite even if I had higher Sword skill I'd still use my staves all the time for my enfeebles and nukes, rendering that Sword skill useless.

I would kill for more MAB though.

[Creudant]

In my opinion, I would love for it to go back to how it was (Meaning a regular party, no burns.), but i imagine there will be people that will be confused as to why there are more than 1 or 2 mages in a party, or why none of the melee are subbing nin, or the fact that the party has a Pld for tanking. ("Blashphemy!")
Or better yet when you get a "Huh?" after telling them the skillchain.

[Vyuru]

Not quite sure if this is a bit off topic or not but....

If an enemy is more dangerous and you need more people that are doing something other than spamming Rampage and Utsusemi, then WHM and BLM are both good choices for those situations.

You did mention it, but I'd like to stress the fact that mobs need to be not just more dangerous, but more.... Utsusemi unfriendly and more Pld/blood tank friendly, like Chigoe/Marids for instance.

I've seen plenty of either ninja tanks or dual war/nin tanks in the early levels fighting dangerous mobs effectively so I don't think it's just that we need more dangerous mobs. It'd be nice if Utsusemi worked more like Blink does when you have a ninja subjob. People do argue that you have to use consumables for shadows and so it's balanced, but I'd point out that you can have 1,188 Shihei in two inventory slots, for somewhere between 3,564 - 4,752 shadows.

I don't mind blink tanking, but when /ninjas can do it as well as a full ninja, I think something is a tad bit wrong.

And while there are many factors that have contributed to the parties we have now, I think that this is one of the major factors to the problem.

And I think there have been steps to make higher level mobs more appealing, like the two handed update for instance and Hasso/Seigan has roughly done for two handers what Dual Wield and shadows have done for one handers, I am still not seeing a real change, or even anything that appears to be the beginning of a change in the attitudes of exp parties.

[Jei]

Well my vision of the job changes a lot over period of time... see,

Wyhen I started playing,
I was told redmage was lame and to avoid playing one when I started.
And redmage really was lame and should be avoided when I started.

But then I saw the AF... and saw some "DD" rdm wielding their swords and I really liked how it looked.. I thought it was cool. So I went through some nightmare time trying to level up my Rdm. Believe it or not, I tried to be a DD RDM originally.

Back in the days when increasing skills were near impossible.
Back in the days when we couldn't land a single enfeeble spells.
Back in the days when we still had gun skill but no gun to use.
Back in the days when we had no refresh, no convert.
Back in the days when we had no party invites.
I almost cried.

My vision of RDM?
I hate waiting for PT, but I wanna wear the AF.
I hate waiting for PT, but I wanna wear the AF.
I hate waiting for PT, but I wanna wear the AF.
I hate waiting for PT, but I wanna wear the AF.
I hate waiting for PT, but I wanna wear the AF.

So I kept on going....

Then one day, SE changed how skill up worked together with all the Rdm toys: refresh, regen, convert, all given to me in the same day. I spent a whole month trying to beat the BCNM and obtained my refresh scroll. That very day I put refresh in my search comment, I got invited into PT without flagging for the first time of my life. It was a glorious day, a day I'd been waiting for.

Today, the job hasn't change much. What change is actually the possibilities openning up to us via higher cap and sub job options. And the *cough* ToA exp camps which destroy PT dynammics...

I don't enjoy RDM in the present days too much. The burning meripo, the mass amount of sub jobs you need, it put us all over the place. Using /nin /drk etc for all sorts of purpose are kinda efficient, but it's not the way RDM should have become.

My favourite moment of Rdm was still when we became the master of enfeeble, when our job was solely enfeebling and support spell casters. The time when we could survive and fight with our own repitore of spells and not having to use all sorts of fancy sub jobs. It's making us not so Red Mage anymore....

[IfritnoItazura]

Ha! I enjoy RDM precisely because of the flexibility. I spent long nights seeking for parties and gritting my teeth on those "3 fights then disband" invites for my DRK just because I really wanted to try Chainspell Stun.

* * *

Beat CoP 7.5 over the weekend; went as RDM74/DRK37. That's Chainspell Stun and Blizzard III, thank you very much. ^_^v

[Pteryx]

As for what SE's vision of RDM was in the beginning, it's clear to me from NPC commentary in the Aurastery, and the names of our AF and relic sets, that they had first envisioned RDM as a melee mage. However, RDM was given very little to make this a reality with. -- Pteryx

[Donomni]

Jack of All Trades, they said.

And yet we're Pink Mage.

That's totally what I wanted.

They need to do something about our ability to deal damage, because our ability to take damage certainly outclasses our ability to give damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Woe is the Red Mage.

Your invite rate is high.
You are desired for endgame.
You can solo many mobs in the game.

Once upon a time, a Red Mage couldn't even get an invite.
What little endgame there was, White and Black Mage were preferred.
Soloing was an option at the time, but Red Mage had no endurance.

Then one day SE gave Red Mage Convert and Refresh.

And that is when RDM became loved.
But alas, RDM still had Cure spells and many used the "versatility" to fill the healer roles often demanded in parties.

You know what they say about feeding stray dogs? Well, you don't heal stray dogs if you want to cripple, nuke and melee their enemies, genius. But RDMs healed their parties anyway.

Then weak mobs became popular to EXP on. Pretty much went downhill from there.

So it really doesn't matter what SE's vision for RDM was, what RDM presently is has been cemented by the player base. Blame the RDMs who so eagerly sub /WHM and join every PT they're invited to. Sure as hell doesn't kill me shoot down PT invites if the role they need isn't what I'm in the mood for.

The problem with RDMs is, unlike their BRD and COR counterparts, they don't have the stones to say "no." But then, that's also because they've come to realize they're not the rare commodity they once were, I suppose. Everyone and their grandma has the "pimp hat" now, say "no" and they'll just find another to replace you.

There is not one thing SE can do for RDM's DD or anything that will change the situation, RDMs are going to have to change the situation for themselves.

Some do, but most don't. Most just complain.

[IfritnoItazura]

What about those us who enjoy being "Pink Mage" (as well as other roles we can play)? >_>;

Whatever S-E may or may not have intended, things are working out well for me. About the only time I don't like being RDM is when there's another RDM in the party, or when I'm the sole mage in the party.

[Karinya]

Jack of All Trades, they said.
And yet we're Pink Mage.
That's totally what I wanted.
Well, put in your comment that you'll only join parties with a WHM. WHM+RDM make an amazing team; it's just wasted on the pathetic mobs most people exp on above 60 nowadays.
They need to do something about our ability to deal damage, because our ability to take damage certainly outclasses our ability to give damage.
With fast cast heals, stoneskin and blink, world-class sleep, gravity and bind kiting, the MP that just won't quit *and* flexible subjob choice (reraise, sleepga/warp/escape, fast cast utsusemi, flee, take your pick), we're the closest thing to immortal Vana'diel has. Real damage-dealing ability on top of that would be insane.

If you want BLU, it's right over there. But be prepared to give up a lot of the endurance and survivability tools that define RDM - because having both at once would be a new job: GOD.

[Aksannyi]

Woe is the Red Mage.

Your invite rate is high.
You are desired for endgame.
You can solo many mobs in the game.

Once upon a time, a Red Mage couldn't even get an invite.
What little endgame there was, White and Black Mage were preferred.
Soloing was an option at the time, but Red Mage had no endurance.

Then one day SE gave Red Mage Convert and Refresh.

And that is when RDM became loved.
But alas, RDM still had Cure spells and many used the "versatility" to fill the healer roles often demanded in parties.

You know what they say about feeding stray dogs? Well, you don't heal stray dogs if you want to cripple, nuke and melee their enemies, genius. But RDMs healed their parties anyway.

Then weak mobs became popular to EXP on. Pretty much went downhill from there.

So it really doesn't matter what SE's vision for RDM was, what RDM presently is has been cemented by the player base. Blame the RDMs who so eagerly sub /WHM and join every PT they're invited to. Sure as hell doesn't kill me shoot down PT invites if the role they need isn't what I'm in the mood for.

The problem with RDMs is, unlike their BRD and COR counterparts, they don't have the stones to say "no." But then, that's also because they've come to realize they're not the rare commodity they once were, I suppose. Everyone and their grandma has the "pimp hat" now, say "no" and they'll just find another to replace you.

There is not one thing SE can do for RDM's DD or anything that will change the situation, RDMs are going to have to change the situation for themselves.

Some do, but most don't. Most just complain.
This is so true. You hear a ton of RDMs bitching about why the job has changed for the worse, yet, they still accept those RDM/WHM main heal invites.

Well guess what! I don't! I get slow as shit merits on my RDM with my BLM boyfriend, and I have so much more fun. RDM is not what I wanted it to be. In parties where enfeebles and dispel actually meant something, where a full Refresh cycle was actually needed, those were the parties where I excelled as a RDM. Not those Regen/Haste/Cure II/Cure III/Maybe Curaga parties where I'm miserable.

Don't get me wrong. I like to heal people. I am leveling WHM, after all. I just know what RDM is really capable of and what we're really masters at, and it bothers me that we are expected to "settle" in order to get invites.

Thus, I duo merits with my guy, and while I don't get to be the RED mage per se, I don't have to be pink either.

[BurningPanther]

They need to do something about our ability to deal damage, because our ability to take damage certainly outclasses our ability to give damage.While it's not the solution to putting us on the frontline, I heartily believe that they key to improving RDM's damage output lies in improving Enspells.

Shorten the distance between breakpoints while increasing the damage cap, or simply introduce a second tier; either would introduce a new dimension to damage dealing within parties that is also uniquely RDM.

[Malacite]

The fact that SE even gave RDM a role in this version is going against the core principals of RDM.


A jack of all trades does not specialize in anything, period.

[BurningPanther]

The fact that SE even gave RDM a role in this version is going against the core principals of RDM.
A jack of all trades does not specialize in anything, period.
It was silly to even introduce RDM. The game doesn't cater well to classes without a specific identity.

Much like nature abhors a vacuum, MMOs abhor "Jacks of all Trades."


... but we're here now, and I don't see them removing RDM as a remedy, so they might as well do something to make it work.

[TheGrandMom]

The role a rdm plays in the game is the choice of the player. If you don't want to be boxed into some role you don't want to play, then don't. Make friends, make your own pts and play the role that you prefer. Thats what a rdm is all about....choice.

As far as SE and the way they see rdm, I would hazard a bet that they think they've done a pretty darn good job and are happy with it.

[BurningPanther]

We can spout noble personal philosophies and pretty ideals all we please, but so long as we don't argue the reality of the matter. The reality is that people, like all things, will take the path of least resistance. Even the majority of RDMs.

Hell, when ToAU was first released, nobody saw what would become of RDM. Even I couldn't see the future when my SAM buddy invited me to Bhaflau Thickets, offering the the insane exp rate chaining Puks and the occasional Mamool Ja, with a simple setup of four melees /NIN, a BRD, and myself main healing. Even I couldn't see the soul-sucking, amoral virus the phenomenon was to become.

At any rate, you talk about blaming the RDM community for not taking a stand against main healing, for pigeon-holing RDM in the place it is now. But while the cause is evident, none have any right in placing blame, since we all have a habit of going with the smoothest flow. Better instead to blame the FFXI community at large, for shunning BLM, shunning PLD, pushing WHM to second-choice healer, and eschewing hate management, as well as basic tactics(Skill Chains), in favor of more mindless hacking and slashing to satisfy their parser results.

But hey, don't blame the community at large, right? They're just doing what's most efficient, right?

If it were a simple matter of the game being the choice of the player, of playing RDM as a manner of choice, then I wouldn't have to worry about soloing(my personal choice), and sacrificing the merit-per-hour parties that require I put aside only my self-respect to main heal for them.

Am I comfortable with the fact that playing how I choose might cost me significantly? Actually, I am. I haven't been in a party outside of large-scale events for six months now, and haven't looked back.

However, I have a rather large beef when choosing to play a job as it was intended somehow becomes anathema, while playing it was a watered-down version of another sees boundless reward. A bigger beef still, when people somehow think that's solely the fault in social consciousness of one portion of the community, and don't stop to consider even once that changes in gameplay might have brought about that fault in social consciousness.

Yes, it IS in part the fault of RDMs that complain about backlining, then turn right around and perpetuate it. But don't ignore the blatantly large changes in gameplay that brought us to this point:

RDM's difficulty in credibly contributing to frontline melee damage...

... the imbalance in Healing skill that makes WHM's capability in it easily replaced by RDM...

... the current burn phenomina that that requires so little responsibility in hate management, tactical spell use, and(seemingly) so little effort in healing.

And for the record, while I believe that S-E might be pleased with the overall popularity RDM enjoys, I'd wager against you that they believe it plays at all like they'd intended.

[Malacite]

While I agree the general community is to blame as well, I still hold that it's ultimately SE's fault for flip-flopping on burn style parties and doing nothing to make classic SC + MB parties against hard enemies equally as rewarding.

[BurningPanther]

While I agree the general community is to blame as well, I still hold that it's ultimately SE's fault for flip-flopping on burn style parties and doing nothing to make classic SC + MB parties against hard enemies equally as rewarding.
Yeah, like I said, changes in gameplay. If game mechanics make it easier to do burn instead of strategize, part of the blame falls on the players, most of it falls on the change in mechanics allowing for such a shift.

[Karinya]

At any rate, you talk about blaming the RDM community for not taking a stand against main healing, for pigeon-holing RDM in the place it is now. But while the cause is evident, none have any right in placing blame, since we all have a habit of going with the smoothest flow. Better instead to blame the FFXI community at large, for shunning BLM, shunning PLD, pushing WHM to second-choice healer, and eschewing hate management, as well as basic tactics(Skill Chains), in favor of more mindless hacking and slashing to satisfy their parser results.
But hey, don't blame the community at large, right? They're just doing what's most efficient, right?
Actually, that *is* right. The balance problems are ultimately the fault of the game designers, i.e. SE. If they're actually reading this thread, I apologize if that's offensive, but it was a mistake to allow so much exp/hr from such weak mobs. And that *should* already be apparent to them by now, even if they haven't yet decided what (if anything) to do about it.
Yes, it IS in part the fault of RDMs that complain about backlining, then turn right around and perpetuate it.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. RDMs being *on* the backline isn't an unintended change: it's the way the job is designed to function at higher levels. The shift in skill caps after 60 alone makes this blatantly obvious, even without the additional evidence provided by staves.

It's the fact of RDMs being the *entire* backline by themselves, rather than working to support other backliners and enfeeble a mob that is actually worth enfeebling, that is a negative change from classic (i.e. RoZ-CoP era) RDM gameplay.

I don't want to be the guy in Qufim who thinks he's a melee; I want to be the RDM I was in Uleguerand, silencing the BLMs, sleeping or kiting the SMN pets, stunning the ahrimans when they can't be silenced (I went /DRK several times, and it was useful, too), saving the party thousands of points of damage, and once in a while magic bursting on an actual skillchain. While the WHM does their own job (with a little help from my Refresh, of course) and only occasionally needs an extra cure from me.

That's RDM as I know and love it. If I wanted to hit things I'd play my DRG.
But don't ignore the blatantly large changes in gameplay that brought us to this point:
RDM's difficulty in credibly contributing to frontline melee damage...
That's not really a change. Have you leveled up recently and are confusing changes resulting from your level with changes in the game?
... the imbalance in Healing skill that makes WHM's capability in it easily replaced by RDM...
RDM has quite good healing magic skill. Making healing magic skill-based (in any reasonable way that wouldn't also completely destroy PLD) isn't going to affect RDM healing much. What it *will* hose is SMN, with only a subjob's healing skill; they'd need another even bigger round of buffs and fixes to bloodpacts to see any invites at all, and even then I bet it wouldn't be pretty. BRD/WHM would also get smacked in the face, at a time when some people would prefer to see it come back.

It's a can of worms that I think it might be better not to open. There are other options to improve WHM (which have been and are being discussed elsewhere).
... the current burn phenomina that that requires so little responsibility in hate management, tactical spell use, and(seemingly) so little effort in healing.
I dislike this, but I think you're not looking deep enough for the cause. But again, it's been discussed elsewhere; this problem certainly isn't RDM-specific.

In fact, I don't think RDM has any specific problems right now; just side effects of the overall game imbalances.