How long do you give a person...

[TheGrandMom]

Ok, I'm having an issue. In a nut shell, I think I've upset people with my opinion on a whm in our HNM. It makes me doubt myself and I keep wondering if I'm wrong. So have at it and tell me what you think.

Heres the background......We have a new recruit that is a whm. After several events, I can't say that I support this person's attitude. At events I've watched his performance and talked with our "head" whm. He is't very happy with his performance either. (FYI, my whm is also 75.)

While I realize joining a HNM is intimidating and you need to learn a lot over time, I think the basic job of a whm is to cure. Am I right? If you have leveled a job for 75 levels and you can't even cure people in a decent timeframe at an event, doesn't that seem odd? Let's take a Limbus run. There were 14 people approx., one whm (him), 2 rdms, 2 blms (I was in this group), and assorted melee and tanks. (I believe this is fairly accurate.) During the entire run his mp didn't dip below 800 and his max is approx. 940ish. I wasn't able to perform my duties correctly for the entire run since I was erasing, paralynaing, curing, etc. (Thank goodness I subbed whm which I usually don't.) I would watch his mp and he'd have 850 and be resting or just standing there doing nothing. At the same time, the melee/tanks would have a few in the red. This went on through the entire event and at the end after killing off an entire floor of elementals, his mp was totally full.

Now imagine this behavior through several events. There was no improvement. The "head" whm would tell him on vent that he needed to stop resting (with nearly full mp) and cure since all he had of his 1100 mp was 50. Since when do you have to be told to cure if you have the mp and you are a whm!? Isn't that kinda second nature to you as a whm? I just don't see any effort from this person to pay attention or to do the job correctly. He's also been given some gentle suggestions and directions which obviously haven't worked.

Now I remember coming on whm to my first things in a HNM. I remember feeling intimidated by it all. But the one thing I also remember is if I couldn't get anything else right by God I was gonna keep people healed!! That IS my job on its most basic level!! So I spoke up and voiced my opinion that this person wasn't putting forth the effort and the responses were that he's new and he needs time. After 75 levels, all I was asking for was for him to HEAL.......was I asking for too much?

[Quetzalcoatl]

well after 75 lvls u r sopoused to know how to do ur job eficently so i think this guy is just lazy or maybe he bought the acount... w/e why u dont talk to him in tell and see what hapend.
if hes keep the same just talk to the sacks and give him a prove period then if he deserv it just tell him to leave the shell...

thats my opinion

[IfritnoItazura]

Give him more definite directions; "Keep these people alive, prioritize in this order:

(person 1) > (person 2) > (rest of them)."

See how he does.

If he's still goofing off, take a screen shot every time multiple people in red HP, while he has most of MP and resting. Then, ax him--there's no reason for him to take up a space needed for a real White Mage.

[Aksannyi]

LOL maybe he was afraid of stealing too much hate ...

/dies.

[Silent Howler]

It's funny, when I'm playing as Whm it annoys me when I see other party members trying to do my job as healer.

LOL maybe he was afraid of stealing too much hate ...

/dies.
{Reraise} {Do you need it?}

[Nuriko]

I'm assuming this is an alliance-type situation ... was he unfamiliar with handling more than a party? I know that I don't know how to target the other two parties quickly/easily...

[tdh]

After 75 levels of being a Cure Monkey - if you're leveling another job and see somebody in the Red, you reach for your Cure macro. As DRK, on the rare occasion that I get Refresh, as soon as it wears off I think "crap, I missed my Refresh cycle." Your main job leaves that much of an impact on you, that even when you're not that job you're trying to do it subconsciously.

I've heard of WHMs over Curing, but one that just won't Cure? Well, I guess I have heard of one of those. Party a few nights ago (Before I got Ratchet & Clank Future BTW. ^^) as SAM, I died 3 times and each time the WHM had 500MP+.

Maybe we've just played this game too long, TGM. Because I find myself putting up with less and less. BLM complaining that the tank can't keep hate when they cast Thunder III and Blizzard III before the 2nd Provoke? WHMs having to Raise people when they have over 500MP? PLDs and NINs who appear to be afraid of TA WS? After I "tell them about themselves" arguments ensue, never mind the common sense of "this is your job." Perhaps the game is trying to punish me for leveling SAM so fast that it just throws these mental midgets my way in response.

My response? Time for a new WHM.

[Necropolis]

Can I assume that he is a newer player (first 75 job) and new to endgame as a whole?

I personally rushed my leveling to jump to the endgame scene as was ill prepared for it. For the longest time I had trouble keeping an alliance alive and keeping an eye out for statis effects. Though I believe I feel more into the 'over cure' genre. My problem was keeping MP and my first endgame shell failed several times because of that. In truth though, it's a bit much to ask a new WHM to main heal at his first Byakko with no other WHMs there. But the shell I had joined was more in a rebuilding phase at that point and were short on numbers as it was.

EXPing and Endgame are very different in my opinion. When joining a more serious HNMLS I was hit on the head a couple times by still over curing. Now the majority of curing is done by the PLDs in my shell for hate (since we use pld/nin so they lack provoke). In exp though you can get away with a bit more and let things slide. Most exp mobs don't have a 1 shot move to take your tanks down.

Your WHM though sounds rather moronic. I was cautious at times about hate and such, and honestly didn't know all the effects caused by various moves. But I made the effort to keep note of anything that transpired in events. I also listened to the more senior members for advice. I see many new recruits though take it as negative criticism and ignore it out of hand.

For new WHMs I'd suggest the party members say in party chat what statis effects they have, if they're missing buffs, and if they need a cure. While I find it annoying now for someone to spam party chat with 'Paralyna Please!', it was helpful when I was new to endgame.

I'd suggest go a few more runs and have someone dedicated to coaching him with LS saying what they need. If you see no improvment in him, write him off as a lost cause and look to recruit another.

[Theyaden]

Odd I find myself tabbing through allies looking for the next cure when I'm on any mage job and have to refrain from treading on the party healer because I'm so used to it. I'm only 50 levels of whm can't imagine being 75 and not curing. If people were dying then noone was beating him to the punch as a reason for not using his mana. It's not even like missing a status effect because it flashed by the scroll bar hp can be seen within the pt/alliance anytime. If he's not even keeping people cured with a full mana bar I'ld try to reabilitae followed by kick if that didn't work. If the whm can't heal you can't use him it would be like keeping a tank that doesn't provoke regularily.

[Karinya]

If he's going to join an endgame ls as a whm, I'd expect him to at least know how to cure, remove harmful status on request, and maintain haste, protect and shell. That's the minimum he should have learned in exp; less than that means he's either colossally stupid, or didn't actually exp that whm to 60+ (i.e. bought the char).

I'm willing to be lenient to people who don't know which moves cause what effects so they can remove them without needing to be asked (although they should learn that within a few weeks if they're paying attention), or aren't used to using barspells because it's not something everyone does in exp. And MP management in endgame can be very different from MP management in exp, so if he runs out of MP too soon I'd give him some slack on that too.

But sitting on a nearly full MP pool while people go into red hp and other /whms have to take up the healing is really beyond what should be tolerated in a whm.

[Feenicks]

You have to prove that he's not doing his job, and I don't mean by screenshots or whatever. Busy yourself with something else and leave all the curing duties to him, and let the event go to crap. Hopefully people will realise that he's not curing and make some kind of action against him.

[TheGrandMom]

Yep I can totally understand not being on top of status effects and such when you are new to HNM'ing. Not all moves by mobs register in chat that someone is paralyzed, poisoned, etc. so it takes a while to get used to that. But simply curing is totally the basics and I'd like to think I'm not being too hard on him by expecting that. I know that our "head" whm as been talking with him but I just haven't seen any improvement so thats why I spoke up to some sacs. I don't know, maybe he's a friend of one or something but that just didn't go over well. /sigh

Maybe we've just played this game too long, TGM. Because I find myself putting up with less and less.

Gosh, I really hope I'm not getting that way. I really try hard not to and to be helpful with new members whenever I can. In fact, I can be too "motherly" at times I think. LOL Well if I am getting impatient and jaded, I'll have my husband boff me upside the head! :P


You have to prove that he's not doing his job, and I don't mean by screenshots or whatever. Busy yourself with something else and leave all the curing duties to him, and let the event go to crap. Hopefully people will realise that he's not curing and make some kind of action against him.

Yep, this I can't do! Failure is not an option! LOL

[Grizzlebeard]

Sooner or later you, and the other people picking up his slack, will either not be around or completely out of MP. At that point the tank will probably die or debuffs won't be cured at all and you'll hear people get seriously vocal. That might result in him either upping his game or getting booted for repeatedly bad performance.

[IfritnoItazura]

I look up the effects of monster's special attacks before heading out to exp camp when I'm not familiar with the targeted monster. That's on Red Mage.

Never been to HNM camps, but I'm going to guess WHM do not research status effects before showing up is not just sub-par, but is nearly worthless.

[Lmnop]

Sooner or later you, and the other people picking up his slack, will either not be around or completely out of MP. At that point the tank will probably die or debuffs won't be cured at all and you'll hear people get seriously vocal. That might result in him either upping his game or getting booted for repeatedly bad performance.

...or he'll tag along, let everyone else do all the work, get all the loot he'll ever need, and leave the shell.

Just being optimistic.

[Vyuru]

I wonder if this could partly be because he may be new to alliance healing. I know that I have problems alliance healing on my Rdm but that is mostly because I hardly play my Rdm anymore, only pulling it out for when we have to have it (Aqueduct run for instance) My healing macros are all setup as /ma "Spell" <t> so that I only have to press f1-f6 to target party members, which makes it a little more difficult. Yet I also know that there is some nifty macro command that lets you cycle through party members. I don't use it because I only may possibly need it once in a blue moon.

On the other hand, unless he just drank a Vile Elixer+1 or something, having full mp with so many people low on health, and sounding like he's the main healer to boot, just doesn't really sit well with me. That to me implies he isn't doing his job, but I can't really tell without being there and seeing what is going on. It also sounds like he is doing alot of unneeded resting, so I am more inclined to learn towards the latter.

Isn't there some kind of convert HP to MP merit for Whm? Yeah, Devotion. Is he using it to give himself MP? Can Whm even do that?

Another thing that kinda bothers me. If I were him, and the problem was I was new to alliance healing and it was too much for me to handle, I would say so and request that a backup healer be present. I'd work out a curing order where I focus on certain people and the other healer handles the rest. I would think that it shouldn't take long to get the hang of alliance healing.

Bottom line though, I would give him a few more chances to improve, and then start looking for a new whm if he hasn't by then.

Hmm, something else, could he possibly be lagging or something? Sometimes with alot of people my connection will do funky things, but that's mostly in say, Besieged. While I haven't been on a Limbus run, from what I have heard though I doubt that would cause any connection issues, and I'm saying that from a dialup standpoint.

Another thing I was kinda thinking of, what about using Ballista to help train new members? Just stage a Ballista LS match so that they can get used to working in a big alliance instead of the typical 6 man party.

Maybe we've just played this game too long, TGM. Because I find myself putting up with less and less.

I don't know. Samurai who don't know how to SC? Blm who don't know how to MB? Drks who don't know why Last Resort + Soul Eater + Berserk + Weapon Bash + *Insert Absorb Spell here* + massive WS that doesn't even bring the mob to half health right at the start of the fight and complains about eating dirt? I may actually be more lenient with the Blm considering the standard party these days, the rest of the people who are lvl 70+ and don't know what I would consider the basics of their jobs though? And I mean stuff they should have learned, well I'd say by Valkurm but let's cut them some slack and say after Kazham? Really not so much, I tend to be very critical on that stuff. If they are just having a bad day that's one thing and is normally obvious, if they obviously have no clue what they are doing though that's another thing all together.

[Feenicks]

Yep, this I can't do! Failure is not an option! LOL If you wanna make an omlette, you gotta break some eggs.

But really, either way he'll find out sooner or later that something's wrong, because surely something's gotta give with either the other LS members or with him. Just pace it out and see what comes to pass, and try not to let it bother you too much.

Either that or reassign him. We have a guy who has NIN, RDM, WAR and RNG at 75 - he's a crap RDM so we always just tell him to come on one of his other jobs :)

[Aksannyi]

God I wish people would tell me not to come on RDM. ; ; Even though it's my only 75, they've told me that once I get WHM to 75 I'm still expected to show as RDM. But mo~om, I don't wanna lose any more RDM xp!

/sigh.

[Olorin401]

I'm assuming this is an alliance-type situation ... was he unfamiliar with handling more than a party? I know that I don't know how to target the other two parties quickly/easily...
Handy shortcuts (at least if you're playing on PC)

F1 & F7 - Target Yourself
F8 - Target nearest NPC (including pets and creatues)
F2-F6 - Targets party members according to their order in the list on your screen.
F11 - In an alliance, targets leader of the top party in your list
F12 - In an alliance, targets leader of the middle party in your list

No easy way to target the others in the alliance.. I usually tab through until I target them. I suppose you could target with the mouse.

BTW, if I saw a WHM doing that I would tell them in LS chat to get off their ass as their warning, and would consider /breaklinkshell Noobwhm if it continued.

[Evion]

But the one thing I also remember is if I couldn't get anything else right by God I was gonna keep people healed!!

LOL. This is how I've felt for 60 levels...

[Eiyoko]

Like most other summoners, I tend to get asked to heal quite a bit. Now, I just moved from the gulf coast to the northern pacific coast; the trip took roughly a week and even then we had to wait for our modem to get to the apartment (which it didn't, but that's a story for another thread and forum). I took several weeks off and got pretty rusty on my SMN when it comes to main healing; I didn't cure my party all that well for a while, but it didn't take me long to get back up to speed.

But the thing is, I was TRYING to get back up to speed.

The lolnoobwhm in question seems to be either someone that bought their account, someone who hacked an account, or someone who is being selfish and is trying to leech off of your shell. I'm not in an HNMLS or anything of the endgame sort, but this is my guess. I'm not a white mage either, but I know damn well what it means to be a white mage because summoner tends to be pseudo-whm on many occasions; that and I've leveled my own WHM to 42 for teles WITHOUT slacking off.

My advice? Confront him directly, by name, in his face, and with a serious and blunt attitude. Now. The way you talk about it seems as though you've been trying to talk to him about it and he's not taking your advice seriously. If he tries to say "@#$% you" and sass you, boot him. No questions asked. Being kind to fools for too long makes them even more foolish.

Mainly because they're getting away with their antics for longer than they should be.

Just my two gil.

[TheGrandMom]

Update to the situation.....

His two 75 jobs are rdm and whm. We currently use him in whatever position he's needed in. So we did a few Kirins and he was the rdm in the blm pt. (I was on blm.) The entire night he barely refreshed. During the summons, he refreshed me twice and yes I needed it more often. (If you haven't done Kirin, it is a Mantacore mob that summons 4 gods individually. Seiryu, Suzaku, Genbu, and Byakko. You take a small pt and kite Kirin while the rest kill the summons as they are spawned. Then you kill Kirin.)

After our Kirins, several melee wanted to get back some exp so they got merit pts together. He joined one on his rdm and members were /t'ing complaining about his performance. I felt badly for them because my rdm is 75 also and I could have went instead. >< One member died a few times and msged me saying one more time and he was gonna "let loose" and disband. So I guess the prediction that this "problem" will take care of itself eventually seems to be coming to fruition.

I am the first one to give someone a break and let them settle in but I do expect the basics to be known for their jobs. Curing is basic, if you don't know it after 75 lvls then you should lvl a job that doesn't need it. I just feel that this is a bought account because I can't wrap my mind around how someone doesn't know how to heal after 75 lvls of whm AND rdm.

I really appreciate every single response I have received. I can always count on the people at FFXIO to give me good honest feedback. Thanks so much everyone!

[Vyuru]

I just feel that this is a bought account because I can't wrap my mind around how someone doesn't know how to heal after 75 lvls of whm AND rdm.


I blame it on the evils of high level powerleveling.

Actually not really kidding, I've seen power leveled parties in the 60+ range now, and we're not talking about friends hanging out together either, which I also see happening now and then.


So yeah, sounds like this player doesn't know how to play their job based on these Kirin fights and subsequent party, I'm also assuming his performance didn't really improve during the Kirin fights.

Yeah, I'd probably get rid of him, from what you are saying it really does sound like he hasn't got a clue.

Makes me happy I primarily play DD jobs and my main is Drg, I only have to worry about which end of my lance do I poke the mob with.


Oh yeah.... It's the pointy end :P

[Aksannyi]

Makes me happy I primarily play DD jobs and my main is Drg, I only have to worry about which end of my lance do I poke the mob with.


Oh yeah.... It's the pointy end :P

Plus, you know ... people still don't have that high of expectations of Dragoons. It's changing, slowly, but for now, you can pretty much fuck up completely in a party and the worst you'll get is "loldrg." :biggrin: