How plausible is Mystic Knight?

[Malacite]

It's a great class back from Final Fantasy V and one that I'd been hoping to see since Final Fantasy XI was first announced for development. Yet, the only elements of the job seem to be a mock tribute in the form of enspells for Red Mage.


Is there anyway this class can be brought back for Final Fantasy XI (without making Black Mage obsolete), or will there simply just be higher tier enspells for Red Mage? The two styles are very similar yet fundamentally different, and I think the community would really enjoy having a front line fighter that would depend on a less traditional sub job such as Warrior in favor of Black Mage. Also, the prospect of melee combat using spells (your sword becomes the spell you cast) is something completely unique that no other job has done. So I ask, how plausible is this job in terms of game balance? Can it be done, or will Red Mage just get more enspells?

Thank you in advance. /cheer

[Yellow Mage]

Ignoring how totally biased the question in question is . . .

How would we deal with the issue of the currently gimped Red Mage melee? Truely, if there was a "Mystic Knight," any possibilities of such a concept would just be blown out the window.

That wouldn't be very healthy at all for the lore of the job.

[BurningPanther]

That wouldn't be very healthy at all for the lore of the job. RDM's current roles aren't healthy for the lore of the job. It's gonna take a bit more than a new tier of En-spells to improve it's frontline standing in the community's eyes.

That said, the community already "enjoying having a front line fighter that would depend on a less traditional sub job," in the form of Blue Mage, whose frontline capabilities are what Red Mage's were supposed to be... but that's a rant for another day.

At any rate, I don't think Mystic Knight would be completely unbalancing, putting it's damage output somewhere between a WAR and BLM, maybe. Completely ego-crushing to the RDM, but not unbalancing.

But I don't want S-E to so much as fix their lips to unveiling yet another DD until they've seriously reassessed and readjusted the healing and tanking areas.

[Armando]

Technically, Mystic Knight is weird kind of a nuking job, not a true melee job.

Besides, the fact that Red Mage melee is "gimped" is debatable. If a RDM could sub /WAR, equip himself purely for DD, and didn't have to support 5 other people with Refresh and Haste, it probably wouldn't be very gimp at all. One could argue that RDM melee capabilities aren't that bad at all, but their casting duties prevent them from making use of their full melee potential.

[Yellow Mage]

RDM's current roles aren't healthy for the lore of the job.

I'm aware of this: I was utilizing understatement.

But I don't want S-E to so much as fix their lips to unveiling yet another DD until they've seriously reassessed and readjusted the healing and tanking areas.

Don't quote me on this, but I've heard somewhere that S-E plans to keep White Mage the de-facto Healing job (and if they really did want it to be that way, they really should fix /WHM, but that's another story).

Do quote me on this when I say to not hold your breath for another Tank. I have said this before and I'll say it again, there are only two types: Blood and Blink Tanking. The community will only accept the best of the best in either, usually depending on the situation, so even if we did get another (effective) Tank, expect either a lot of Paladins, or a lot of Ninja to be out of a job.

[Raydeus]

Besides, the fact that Red Mage melee is "gimped" is debatable. If a RDM could sub /WAR, equip himself purely for DD, and didn't have to support 5 other people with Refresh and Haste, it probably wouldn't be very gimp at all. One could argue that RDM melee capabilities aren't that bad at all, but their casting duties prevent them from making use of their full melee potential.

With subpar weapons available and B skill rating on both sword and dagger RDM would never come close to being a DD, unless fictional Enspells tier II would add 50-100 dmg against T and up per hit, so we could eat +acc food and stack on +acc gear onry.

Granted, we have great endurance if the RDM knows how to play, but our dmg against T mobs and higher is pretty bad.


Of course, for soloing purposes we do have a decent dmg output with the best gear, but they are very different situations.


And while MTK would be a good option to fill the gap between melee and BLMs BLU kinda already fills that role so I don't know about it. But then again, as long as they don't mess with RDM to acomodate new jobs I say go for it. =P

[Yellow Mage]

With subpar weapons available and B skill rating on both sword and dagger RDM would never come close to being a DD, unless Enspells tier II would add 50-100 dmg per hit.

I think you almost got the point, and then just totally missed it.

[Raydeus]

I should've quoted, I didn't even read your post. :rofl:

Edited for the sake of clarity.

[Malacite]

^^; thanks for the derailment guys ~.^

on that subject thought, why not give RDM a trait that allows it to melee while casting? This would mean forgoing staves for spells but still...

[Raydeus]

Heheh, everytime I think about Spellblade and how a MTK would focus on M. Att and INT (plus +acc to actually land the hits), I just go back to thinking: Why the heck didn't we get Tier II Enspells intead of those useless Merit spells... /cry ^^;

[Malacite]

That's another good question actually (I have so many for SE > <)

Why did they even bother with merit spells? Bad, bad, BAD idea -.-

[BurningPanther]

Don't quote me on this, but I've heard somewhere that S-E plans to keep White Mage the de-facto Healing job (and if they really did want it to be that way, they really should fix /WHM, but that's another story).

Do quote me on this when I say to not hold your breath for another Tank. I have said this before and I'll say it again, there are only two types: Blood and Blink Tanking. The community will only accept the best of the best in either, usually depending on the situation, so even if we did get another (effective) Tank, expect either a lot of Paladins, or a lot of Ninja to be out of a job.
You misunderstand me. I'm not looking for new jobs, as I firmly believe the addition of new jobs into an ailing role is simply a bandage on a gunshot wound, used to wow and distract the masses.

What I am looking for is a a readjustment to factors within the current tanking and healing jobs; Def and VIT should be updated, blood-tanking should be made more palatable without becoming autonomous. Exp mobs should be challenging enough that potent healing matters, the ease of healing with a sub should be reduced.

All that can be done without introducing a new job. Mystic Knight would be a DD, yet another in a long line of them, and not helping the above-mentioned issues.
Besides, the fact that Red Mage melee is "gimped" is debatable. If a RDM could sub /WAR, equip himself purely for DD, and didn't have to support 5 other people with Refresh and Haste, it probably wouldn't be very gimp at all. One could argue that RDM melee capabilities aren't that bad at all, but their casting duties prevent them from making use of their full melee potential.
on that subject thought, why not give RDM a trait that allows it to melee while casting?
Easy.... Auto-Attack and move on to the next problem.

Seriously. Aside from the panic attacks parties have when they see RDM/WAR-DRK-whatever show face, there is really nothing stopping a RDM from casting while attacking. I keep a Refresh order just fine while on the front line. Obviously, the more specialized your role, such as main healing or lolmain nuking, the less viable it is. However, that's simply letting the party add a load to your shoulders, confusing you for a BRD or WHM. Don't put yourself in that situation, and you attain a happy medium between casting and attacking.

However, ability to attack while casting isn't the problem, damage output is the issue. For every spell we cast and recast, for ourselves and party members, we're left with very few swings in-between, and thus a lower damage output. This can be solved one of two ways(or both): increasing our attack frequency(a la Haste/Double-/Triple Attack), or increasing DPS, either normally or through Enspells.
^^; thanks for the derailment guys ~.^Technically, nothing was derailed. The sub-forum's use is for asking Square-Enix questions, and the guidelines state that said questions should be simple and succinct, limited to the first post.

Since you asked your question(and really, only the first post will be considered), the purpose of the thread you started has been fulfilled. Everything from the second post on is merely a formality; a function of the forum's purpose in general.

[Vyuru]

Out of curiosity....

Why not give Pld a few abilities that let them either be more tankish or more DDish much like Hasso and Seigan do for Samurai?

With a few tweaks I think I could see Pld being more Mystic Knightish...

May give Plds a few more invites seeing as how jobs have to go through a major "overhaul" before people notice anything.

*minor rant*

Good grief, my invite rate shot up through the roof after the update that gave Drg a new two hour, despite the only real new benefit I brought to the party was my Wyvern having subtle blow.

Anywho dunno, just a thought. You could make the abilities grant access to different spells and or abilities (Go Runic!) and maybe some stat changes to make DD or tanking a little easier.

[Malacite]

I don't think you caught my meaning. When I said melee while casting, I meant you still keep swinging that sword while the casting meter fills, not stopping to cast and then resuming automatically.

And I talked about VIT/DEF in my other thread but I'm glad to see there are other people who share my views ^^

The way I see it, jobs like WAR/SAM/DRG/DRK should be able to tank similarly well to how PLD does now with a potent healer in the party, while PLD goes up a step higher and is next to autonomous (very little support needed).

That way, a group of melee can just gather together and head out without suffering horrible down time, while a party with a PLD can go all out more often with the PLD keeping them (mostly, if they don't go too nuts) alive and laughing at the mob's pathetic attempts on his or her life ^^b

[Karinya]

RDM's current roles aren't healthy for the lore of the job. It's gonna take a bit more than a new tier of En-spells to improve it's frontline standing in the community's eyes.
I don't know what you're talking about with this "lore of the job" business; RDM has never been top-tier melee in any previous game. They've been able to do some OK melee if they're not too busy casting spells - which is pretty much where they are now, too. Staves are a nuisance that classic RDMs weren't saddled with, I'll give you that.
That said, the community already "enjoying having a front line fighter that would depend on a less traditional sub job," in the form of Blue Mage, whose frontline capabilities are what Red Mage's were supposed to be... but that's a rant for another day.
BLU is severely limited by its MP; RDM is one of the game's premier masters of the endurance fight. BLU has to be better at *something* to make up for that; damage output is that something.

Of course when the RDM is buffing the BLU and not vice versa (because they can't), the BLU looks stronger. But that's because their strength is not their own.
At any rate, I don't think Mystic Knight would be completely unbalancing, putting it's damage output somewhere between a WAR and BLM, maybe. Completely ego-crushing to the RDM, but not unbalancing.
I don't see what would be ego-crushing about it, unless the RDM believes that their job is supposed to be a DD. Mystic Knights (probably) couldn't heal, haste or refresh anyone; they might or might not be able to do some effective enfeebling with En-status spells. And they wouldn't have stoneskin, phalanx, blink and sleep to save their ass when something goes bad.

What it might be to a RDM is *useful* - if you get some tier II enspells before 37, and access to the restricted sword WS, it could become the new premier RDM soloing sub.

I'd try it if it existed, but I wouldn't expect it to be able to do even half of what I can do as a RDM. Killing one EP mob at a time, and not minding the rest time in between? Mystic Knight would be great for that. Soloing entire families of xzomits, or aerns that reraise themselves multiple times? I think I'll go RDM for that one, thanks.

[Armando]

May give Plds a few more invites seeing as how jobs have to go through a major "overhaul" before people notice anything.

*minor rant*I had like 6 different invites yesterday from 4:00 to 12:00 PM and I was /anon part of the time, and never put my flag up. In fact my invites have never been lacking for as long as ToAU has been out. Hell, we even benefited from the two-hander change (more damage with Kinkobo/Spirit Taker and more need for a high-enmity tank.) I don't think PLD in particular needs any adjustments or help at the moment.

[Malacite]

That's rather server dependent I find. But then again invites on Seraph are a bitch in general...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Its been said before, worth repeating:

Spellblade is not Enspell.
Enspell is not Spellblade.

Enfire would give your sword a bit of fire damage on top of its melee hit.
Fire Blade would change your sword into the spell Fire, negating the physical damage element of the sword.

[Yellow Mage]

Its been said before, worth repeating:

Spellblade is not Enspell.
Enspell is not Spellblade.

Enfire would give your sword a bit of fire damage on top of its melee hit.
Fire Blade would change your sword into the spell Fire, negating the physical damage element of the sword.

Er . . . I'm not sure if anybody has explicitly disputed that, as of yet.

. . . on this thread.

[Pteryx]

There is one key reason why BLU became the frontline caster the early NPCs made RDM out to be: near-instant-cast spells. If not for that, BLU would still be up front, but not swinging its sword. RDM has Fast Cast, sure, but that only reduces casting times slightly, rather than making casting between swings feasable. Sure, it also has Chainspell, but that's its two-hour -- to make full use of that, you have to cast constantly, to the exclusion of all else, as opposed to BLU's ability to swing-cast-swing-cast. -- Pteryx