The goal of changes (SE's SMN concept)

[Wiseman40]

I can't find the releases from SE concerning exactly what they want SMN to be.

By making pacts with the legendary "avatars," these heretic mages have unlocked the secrets to the forbidden magic of Vana'diel. is what the official FFXI site reads. Obviously this tells nothing about what SMN is supposed to do.

Historically, summoners in the FF series are massive AoE damage plus some support.

We do that. >.> (Although to use the word massive we'd have to 2-hour)

However, we're obviously more sough-after for our support than our DD until endgame.

No one invites a BLM to a party to make use of their /WHM, but virtually all BLM sub WHM. It's the best choice, but doesn't define the job.

I found myself often hoping they 'free up' our subjob.
When I think about it, it's probably never going to happen. /WHM will likely 'always' be the greatest subjob for SMN, just as it has 'always' been the greatest subjob for BLM. What I am hoping, though, is that changes find a way of getting us invites based on the SMN part rather than the /WHM part, in a similar way to BLM.

This is not to say I want us changed into pure DD or anything.

I am starting to wonder, though, what the exact goals of SE are in regard to the job.

Some people say SMN is broken. Actually, SMN does everything it could have been expected to do based on the FF series already. We just can't do it often.

Once a fight we have some burst damage, then we support for the rest of it.

This is how summoners have worked in just about every FF series game!

SE is very afraid of SMN becoming too powerful. The thing is, there would be some simple fixes by simply reducing avatar perpetuation cost just a little.

End game we're already just fine. People only really complain about having to level SMN.

[Malacite]

Even endgame is sorta screwed up. The lv 70 BP's actually do more damage than Astral Flow. That's messed IMO... (RNG has the same problem with EES ><)


I'd personally like to see a nice fat boost to avatars. Not to the point that SMN is broken, but that they can at least be left out to attack the mob rather than just feed it loads of TP for crap damage. A SMN should be able to melee for more than it's pet @ - @ SMN is on the opposite end of the spectrum from DRG here and ought to play like it.


It'd be great if it was a more attractive sub too. What if BLM could go /SMN more often and still be able to do a decent cure on the side, or get in 2 MB's or have the avatar use a physical BP to open/close a skillchain for them to MB on?

[Akashimo]

On the note of SC with pet sub.... Drk/smn in the 3-10 grin, Carby + Slice = <3 ^^

[Rain_Blade]

Historically, summoners in the FF series are massive AoE damage plus some support.

Well in this case (meaning in this game), our only damaging AoEs is Thunderspark and 2 hours. =(

[Necropolis]

The best subjob for blm is never /whm. The best sub is /rdm and in some situation /nin. Both of those subs give us what we want to do, which is increase damge and/or keep us alive. /Whm however is the best sub for a party.

In the parties that I have had on blm while leveling to 75, I found myself often spending more MP on cures than actual damaging spells.

The problem with summoner is not so much a lack of damage from other sources, but really just a lack of healers to be found. If you were to be invited to a party with a rdm and whm already present, you'd find you'd spen much less time healing and more time doing what a summoner was designed to do. However, many party leaders do no invite smns as DDs. They'd much rather invite another war or some such job.

Smns are often looked to as a giant MP bucket with cure3. So thats what they get invited for. It's not a design flaw so much on SE's part, but peoples perception. I think a lot of this comes from the trend to min/max everything. The all mighty parser tells us what jobs are the best DDs. However, most parsers don't show pet damage, so to the mindless mob, a smn contributes no damage.

I'm certainly not arguing that a SMN should be out damaging heavy DD and also have the ability to support a party with wards; but I think that thier damage is often over looked and they don't see the support buffs as enough incentive to invite them.

As for the comment that a smn should melee for more than the pet; I'd have to disagree. You're summoning a god! You mean to tell me a light staff wield by an incantor will outparse a god?! I do believe however a few tweaks to avatar acc/att wouldn't hurt the job any.

[Armando]

I'd personally like to see a nice fat boost to avatars.Agreed. It's totally lame as hell how SMNs just call avatars for one ability and then dismiss it, because their melee damage isn't worth the MP cost of keeping them out.

[Lucky7]

I have to say that in my short time around these boards it took me a while to understand why RDM and SMN get always stuck with the healing job while BLM and BLU are never requested to heal (at least from all I've read). If you look at a poll/questionnaire in the RDM forums you'll see that the majority of them are just healing. It seems that it is the same way for SMN (at least during leveling). I did read a post by TM pointing the many things that he does with his RDM (was good to see that there are still people playing the job for more than heals), but I haven't seen anything like that for SMN.
Like in many other MMOs there is a shortage of true healers (whm), so other supports jobs that can heal will always end up healing. BLM does enough DD to escape this, but why BLU doesn't heal is unknown to me (I guess that is my ignorance of the job).
Anyway, like you point out, from FF history we know that SMN is an amazing job. Too bad that is a hassle to level since the community already decided beforehand what you'll be doing while leveling.

[Necropolis]

BLM does enough DD to escape this, but why BLU doesn't heal is unknown to me (I guess that is my ignorance of the job).
Anyway, like you point out, from FF history we know that SMN is an amazing job. Too bad that is a hassle to level since the community already decided beforehand what you'll be doing while leveling.

BLM are on occasion invited to main heal; I often refuse those invites since if I wanted to heal I'd seek on whm.

However BLU doesn't heal as often because of the people playing the job. You have a finite amount of inventory space; and as such you can only carry around so much gear. The people that choose to play blu typically level it as a DD job and ignore gear for more mp/mnd and such that would enhance the party all together. I have seen a few BLU main heal, and they are typcally the people that have leveled whm before and have the gear and support job to pull it off. Now that the standard has been set, party leaders look at a seeking blu and a DD as opposed to a possible main healer.

SMN gets pigeon-holed into the roll since they can also give other ward buffers in addition to main healing; not neccessarily right, but it's there none the less.

[Telera]

It is quite a hassle when there's a shortage of white mages that most party leads tend to invite the summoner as someone else put it as a big MP bucket with Cure 3. Yeah, they'd rather just stick one of us in there and then go find another random DD to round out the party. And while I don't mind main healing, it certainly does become boring and pointless to me to be a 'summoner' when for 90% of the 60 levels of it, I was playing jury-rigged white mage.

However, the rare party where you get in with a rdm and whm already there, and you are allowed to *be* a summoner, that's when people get an appreciation for the other things we can do. I had a couple of parties like that on the way to 60, especially the last few levels up to that point. And after disband I had a couple of people say 'Wow, I never knew summoner could be so useful.'

There is a lot we can do if the rest of the required jobs are around to give us space to do it. Early on I was opening/closing SC's. Mid levels and up I was doing a good bit of MB'ing. And in my very last party before I quit, we had a whm and a rdm/brd, so I had Carby out for extra heals/buffs and Meteorite. When he had TP that did a decent amount of damage.

I think the problem really is the avatars' regular ol' melee damage isn't worth the MP cost of leaving them out to gain said TP to do better on BPs. As they are now, they're basically just feeding the mobs lots of TP that forces more work on the healers in the group.

[Malacite]

As they are now, they're basically just feeding the mobs lots of TP that forces more work on the healers in the group.


Pretty much. Even being invited to DD though, SMN just do not keep up with "dedicated" DD jobs like DRG until 70+. And even then, I've had a few PT where the SMN was there specifically to DD, and while those BPs were murder (both on the mob and the SMN's MP... seriously, doing 1 of those every fight takes it's toll quickly), it was mostly loldmg between the big spikes

[Necropolis]

Pretty much. Even being invited to DD though, SMN just do not keep up with "dedicated" DD jobs like DRG until 70+. And even then, I've had a few PT where the SMN was there specifically to DD, and while those BPs were murder (both on the mob and the SMN's MP... seriously, doing 1 of those every fight takes it's toll quickly), it was mostly loldmg between the big spikes

But keep in mind that if they kept up with other dedicated DD jobs, no one would want the other DD jobs. Can a drg stoneskin a party? Haste? paralyze? Lower evasion and defense of mobs? They can not. I agree a bit more damage wouldn't help the job be played the way it was intended; but if it's damage was equal to a DD class while still having support abilities would tilt the scales in favor of smn over any other DD.

Imagine an avatar that could tank traditional party mobs. We wouldn't need a pld, nin, or any other DD. Smn would be the end all be all job class for damage and surviability. All this while subbing whm and never using a weapon themselves.

Buy I conceed a few alterations to Avatar melee damage would be of help to the job.

[Wiseman40]

The idea of avatars being out for a while is new to the FF series. In FFXI and in the more recent RPGs (I believe X-2 onward) avatars stay out, but anything older than that and they just show up, nuke or support, then leave.

SE wanted to change this in FFXI and made avatars something closer to a consistent pet. This has definitely backfired, however.

Even when an avatar becomes 'free' you can't heal while they're out, which ends up being to avatars' cost. Plus, the only rewards for keeping the avatars out are the very minor DoT of their melee, and the fact that you don't have to endure the casting time of resummoning them to use another BP. This, as other posters have said, lends the enemy TP more than it deals damage due to low melee damage ratings on avatars.

I have noticed that I gain more XP faster by never summoning an avatar than having one out all of the time.

That's just wrong... sigh. Now, if I bring out avatars just for BPs and dismiss, it's better than never having an avatar out at all, but that's ONLY if there's a dedicated healer. If I am main healing, any avatar use whatsoever only hinders the flow of chain pulling.

I can't think of anything that SE can do in terms of minor changes to the job to eliminate this.

[IfritnoItazura]

I have to say that in my short time around these boards it took me a while to understand why RDM and SMN get always stuck with the healing job while BLM and BLU are never requested to heal (at least from all I've read).
Depending on the party, BLMs do get asked to shoulder a good deal of curing. In fact, JP players on BLM just assume they should be curing, from my experience--they all carry light staff and dump cures like, well, JP WHMs.

As for BLUs, every JP search comment I've seen for them says "/WHM (and others) available". It's not so much that BLUs don't get asked, it's more like NA/EU BLUs don't prepare themselves for the healer role, so there's no point in asking.

If you look at a poll/questionnaire in the RDM forums you'll see that the majority of them are just healing.
It's exaggeration, at least before merit levels. Many RDM players just despise the main healer role, and taking on it once makes them unhappy for days.

From Lv.70 (1k from using exp scroll during Maat fight) to Lv.72 (16k in!) took my RDM four parties. I was "main healer" once; the other three had WHMs--one of those even had a JP BLM who cured more than me.

And the one time I was "main healer"? The PLD tank was the co-healer, and probably did just as much curing as I did, if not more. (Heck, he has better MP recovery than I do, with Parade Gorget. On top of that, he even carried a Dark Staff for resting. XD )

I was the main enfeebler in each and every one of those parties.

In any case, I don't have problem with main healing on RDM, but more often than not, there is a WHM, SMN, or even BLM in party who gladly be main/co-healer.


* * *

SMN is flexible enough as is. So what if avatar melee sucks? My RDM's melee ability vs. exp targets is nothing to gloat about, either. The problem is that the "SMN in party" story doesn't have a "hook" to it--there isn't a compelling reason to get one beyond "We need a healer... Guess SMN will do..."

PLD used to be like that, and what finally made it popular (again) for party invite was the combination of Auto-Refresh and Shield Mastery update, along with a sudden drop of tank players. (I would argue that the drop in tanking population was more of a boon for the up and coming PLDs than the update, however. heh.)

These days, though, it's hard to say what would be the right way to enhance SMN for exp parties. Do we not have enough DD ability already? Not enough buffs? Not enough enfeebling choices? Not enough healing options? Not enough kinds of MP recovery? The answer to each pretty much is "No--we have enough of everything already."

Then, where and how can S-E add a "hook" strong enough to entice party invite, yet won't be game-balance bending?

* * *

Besides, what do you think would happen if Avatars' perpetuation cost are lowered? "Oh cool! The SMN has more MP to cure now!" :biggrin:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

It is quite a hassle when there's a shortage of white mages that most party leads tend to invite the summoner as someone else put it as a big MP bucket with Cure 3.

A hassle is when there are no WHMs seeking and every RDM, BLU and SMN that can main heal refuses to do so. And every last one of those jobs can, I don't care what excuse you whip up.

A hassle is getting invited for something you can't do. SMNs can main heal, just like CORs can pull and WARs can tank. Refusing those functions is refusing roles you can fill and that's a hassle to others, not you. If you're not prepared to fulfill these roles, you're not playing the jobs to their fullest potentials.

A hassle is not being told what your role was prior to arriving at camp. Its a given WHM will be a main healer, it is not a given that SMN, BLU or RDM always will be. Inform those jobs of their PT role before they come to camp. Likewise, it is not always a given that a BRD or COR will pull for your PTs, inform them that is what you need, don't assume its what they'll do.

If I'm COR/RNG while seeking and you say nothing, that is what I'm going to come as and I'm going to be pissed at you when you ask me to pull. But not as pissed as I could be when I was seeking RDM/BLM, got an invite and trekked all the way out Valley of Sorrows to see the WHM warp themselves out and main heal dropped in my lap. This happens all the time and its why RDM and SMNs are so uptight about main healing in the first place.

If you're a leader and the invitee asks what their role is or what the party set-up is - answer them. Answering it does not mean we will turn the invite down, we just want to know what we're being invited to do. Don't give us the silent treatment because we will just assume the subjob we had was fine.

[Telera]

I meant that it was a hassle that we even have a white mage shortage. Not that I would refuse to heal. I've never refused to heal. Ever. I even said explicitly I don't mind it. It gets boring, but I don't mind it.

I have, however, been exceedingly pissed off by coming as a replacement to a party that still has a white mage, and the minute they see me cast a Cure to help out, suddenly I stop seeing cures from them at all. There's a sudden wash of Dia and Banish spam and I find myself shouldering all the cures lest someone die.

That happened all too often. I'm not here for you to ride on my MP and skill up, sweetheart. I was trying to co-heal and help you, but I'm not going to do it alone while you level Divine. If you had asked, I might have agreed, but just assuming because I tossed a cure on the side? That's a guaranteed kiss my ass situation right there.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Mages skilling up Dark and Divine is a pet peeve on a whole other level. The worst in the BLM that tries to skill up Dark in Manaburn PTs by spamming Bio and Drain as much as possible. I've had so many of those kicked from PTs.

But you're right, the presence of another job in PT that can provide similar skills does not mean the specialist in those skills starts passing the buck. A BRD or COR is not a reason for a RDM to stop using Dispel and a SMN isn't a reason for a WHM to start seeking Divine skill ups.

[IfritnoItazura]

If MP is flowing well and if it's not something idiotic like Bio II overriding Dia II, or DoT spell on sleeping monster, I don't see a problem with other people sneaking in a few skill up spells during an exp session.

Heck, if a DRK wants to skill up with Absorb- spells, I'd give him a Refresh for it.

[Galaxia]

I have to agree in the rest of the FF games SMN was the one to cause a massive blow of damage then kinda support for the rest of the fight.

SE don't want to overpower SMN into some "God Like" Job but they also don't want them to be weaklins either.

In there attempt to even out SMN they have gone more into the Support side rather then the Damage side.

The Mass amount of MP SMN has only provokes ppl into thinking with /whm we would be a great source of healing and then to give us the auto refresh would only add to the desire of a SMN healer.

I think a way to fix SMN would be to do somthing like givin up a new ability such as

Name: Astral Projection
Recast: 10 Mins
Ability: Allows the SMN to Summon one Avatar and use one ability of the Avatar for 0mp.

Although this is probs a bad idea but it was just somthing that popped into my head it could give SMN that Burst of Dmg again.

Also I would like to see the Avatars Lv 4 Magic be replaced by somthing more Avatarish Blizzard IV > Ice Flare

I know it says that SMN gets its "Forbidden" Magic from the Avatars but we get 2 spells that a BLM does so its not really SMN only.

I know these ideas are probs not too good but just ideas.

[Malacite]

But keep in mind that if they kept up with other dedicated DD jobs, no one would want the other DD jobs. Can a drg stoneskin a party? Haste? paralyze? Lower evasion and defense of mobs? They can not.

BLU, and other jobs to a lesser extent. And DRG can lower mob def :P

SMN is flexible enough as is. So what if avatar melee sucks? My RDM's melee ability vs. exp targets is nothing to gloat about, either. The problem is that the "SMN in party" story doesn't have a "hook" to it--there isn't a compelling reason to get one beyond "We need a healer... Guess SMN will do..."


That's a piss poor argument. Firstly because melee is one of RDM's issues (RDM's melee should seriously be on par with BLU's). RDM also is more versatile. You can switch tactics on the fly since all your spells are readily available as well as melee gear. Despite a few glaring weaknesses the job fulfills it's intended roles fairly well.

A SMN has their avatar and only a max of two abilities each minute. Then you have to pay MP to summon the pet, keep it out, and use it's abilities. With all that MP being spent I really don't think it's asking too much to get some decent mileage out that MP. SMN is very flexible yes, but not all at once. The new pet direction is ok, but SE is trying to mix two play styles here.

They need to boost one or the other. Either make the avatars decent enough to keep out, and/or power up blood pacts. It's not that I don't like any of the new takes on some of the jobs (like DRG's wyvern) but SMN's always been about spending lots of MP for big effects. As it is, we spend the same MP but for much less I find compared to say a WHM or BLM.


Hastega (and most buffs) wear off in no time. Tier 2 and 4 nukes pail in comparison to BLM's (even though BLM's don't suffer as many restrictions). Oh, and physical damage pacts that are rarely on par with weaponskills until lv 70+.

[Pteryx]

I feel that SMN's support side is quite acceptable as is; while Hastega wears in a hurry when you first get it, since the Summoning Magic update it becomes worthwhile over time. Thus, I feel the best way to make SMN more attractive is to up the damage aspect of everything except Astral Flow and the level 70 pacts. Make avatar auto-attack accuracy based off of Summoning Magic and up the damage somewhat -- either by improving the base damage or, if you want the choice of specific avatar to matter more, by giving them inherent Enspell effects. Make avatar (and spirit!) magical damage and accuracy also be based off of Summoning Magic and give them MAB traits -- if not on the BLM scale, then at least on the RDM scale. (Heck, maybe give the spirits the BLM scale and the avatars the RDM scale?)

Of course, in a perfect world, on top of all this, Blood Pact: Ward would also be on a 45-second timer... :P -- Pteryx

[IfritnoItazura]

That's a piss poor argument. Firstly because melee is one of RDM's issues (RDM's melee should seriously be on par with BLU's). RDM also is more versatile. You can switch tactics on the fly since all your spells are readily available as well as melee gear. Despite a few glaring weaknesses the job fulfills it's intended roles fairly well.

RDM's melee ability is perfectly fine as is, as far as I'm concerned. Certainly isn't hurting my invite rate any. This reminds me of the old PLD vs. NIN argument--it's was silly back then to demand PLD to mitigate damage as well as NIN or nerf NIN to take as much damage as PLD, and it is silly now to demand RDM sword skill to be put up to par with BLU's.

If we take follow this idea of "this job should be as good as this or that as some other job" to its natural conclusion, we might as well dispense with all jobs--they'd be alike enough to the point being interchangeable anyway.

That said, I do agree there's a problem with SMN; there just doesn't seem to be many exp parties what would think: "If we only have a SMN for the last vacancy in party, we'd be perfect!" However, the solution should not be to make SMN a much more powerful DD, given that we already have plenty of DD jobs for exp use.

There must be a better way...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

People still misunderstand what Summoners did in the other FF games.

Keep in mind there was a ton of griding to do in those games and once you started getting pulled into these tedious little random encounters with lower level monsters, it was best to wipe them out with one blow.

Summoner was your character to do that with. I'd constantly button mash Defend turns for the other characters in FFIV and just let Rydia murder everything with Bahamut. Saved time and the other characters' MP.

But in extended boss fights and more evened out encounters, you used Summoners more for healing and support at the start and middle of those fights, saving the big damage summons for a decisive victory at the end. If you used them for damage out of the gate, you didn't use summons right.

-------------------------------------------------

Now, as for "fixing" summoner, as Itaz points out, if you reduce pact costs, that doesn't just mean you're getting more MP for summoning. People will see that actually frees you up for more curing as well. There is no way out of SMN having healing potential, so we're gonna have to find other elements to be fixed.

I think SMN should be a better party buffer than it currently is and changes made in that regard. Titan, Garuda, Fenrir, Carbuncle, Leviathan and Diabolos seem pretty solid overall with good buffs, so leave them as is. Shiva, Ifrit and Ramuh feel a bit weak in this regard and need to be improved. Spike effects and Enspells are crap to melees.

Ifrit's Warcry is nice, but why not given him an AoE Attack buff on part with Minuet x2 and Chaos Roll on 11 instead of just Warcry? Give Ramuh a Critical Hit Rate + buff, as good or almost as good as Rouge's Roll. Shiva I'm drawing a blank on, but something better than Ice Spikes and Enblizzard.

I'd say lower or eliminate the Support Pact cost so they'd be a bit more even with COR and BRD on buffs, but to balance that out, I'd increase the cost of the Rage pacts.

Also, free SMNs from being tethered to their Avatars to issue buffs. Widening the command radius of avatars would go a long way in making buffs less awkward to do. Let SMNs command avatars safely from the backline instead.

I'd also steal a page from the PUP update and give Carby or Levvy some WHM duties. Let them recognize who needs curing in a party.

[Galaxia]

I agree I would give Carby the Healing role.
Gibing him the same as PUP got would be great having him know when to heal somone also carby is free prep so it would also be good there.
As for Shiva and a Buff maybe somthing like a Refresh buff? or somthing along them lines, Give Shiva a dedicated Mage type buff.

I love the idea of carby knowing when to heal people that would be good it also takes some preasure from the SMN with healing duties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm wary about yet another job getting refresh. PLD, SMN and BLU already have auto refresh can can achieve a personal 3 MP a tick with proper gear and Sanction. Diabolos also kinda got the good mage buffs already.

[Galaxia]

Juices are a good way to get some refresh going too.
Hmm maybe not a refresh type then but somthing else?
HP recovery?
Shiva does need a decent support ability tho

[Omniblast]

I posted this previously but one way to make sure that a Summoner focuses thier MP on only their Avatar would be to make Perpetuation 0 while the summoner /heals. It would prevent mis-use of MP where they would be taken out of the healer's role while they were /healing. While they are /healing as well, and I'm going off on a limb here, maybe they could access their Blood Pacts from this position?

This is as an additional benefit. Not the sole ability of the Summoner. Since we do like to kite and solo some mobs, I don't think I'll feel safe sitting next to a bomb.

[Malacite]

You're right BBQ about SMN being there to wipe out hordes of enemies in 1 fell swoop. The problem with FFXI is that's a very rare occurance. Some people say that SMN shouldn't be as potent (if not more so) than BLM because it would take away from them.

I have to disagree here. SMN's always been stronger than BLM, especially against multiple enemies. But BLM's always been the job with better MP conservation, especially against a single target. That's where SE sorta fails in XI I find.

SMN's don't do big damage with their BP's until 70+. BLM's aren't limited to a 1 minute timer for their damage, so why not boost blood pact performance? It's not like those pets have a lot of HP or Def (decent, but still not as good as your average melee) and maybe up the MP cost a bit.

As long as SE is still supporting the classic one-time big effect strategy (blood pacts in XI's case as opposed to simply casting the summon in older games) we might as well get our MP's worth.

And I still say that SMN magic "fix" was nothing more than a placebo. Skill level over the current cap? What's wrong with having everything go up with skill level like every other magic type?

To me, the root of the problem is what I said earlier; they're mixing two play styles in one. You have SMN as a "pet" job now, but it still retains it's old play style in the form of blood pacts. Well, we can't really have it both ways without making the job over powered.

Either crank up the avatar performance to make them worth keeping out, or make blood pacts high cost + high reward like they used to be back in the older games.

[Wiseman40]

Buffing: If avatars ward to the point of being at par with BRD and COR, won't we trump them in the support role due to our ability to heal much better with our massive remaining MP?

Healing: If Carby or another avatar heals on its own without a BP, won't we then trump WHM due to our ability to also buff and do damage in addition to our consistent healing ability?

Damage: If they buff avatars damage in any way, won't we then trump all the blm due to our ability to meet their damage (particularly at endgame) while supplying support as well?

It looks like we're being held back by our versatility, which is something that can't be avoided being that if they removed our versatility and locked us into one of those roles, they'd alienate a large section of SMNs.

[Malacite]

Buffing: If avatars ward to the point of being at par with BRD and COR, won't we trump them in the support role due to our ability to heal much better with our massive remaining MP?

Healing: If Carby or another avatar heals on its own without a BP, won't we then trump WHM due to our ability to also buff and do damage in addition to our consistent healing ability?

Damage: If they buff avatars damage in any way, won't we then trump all the blm due to our ability to meet their damage (particularly at endgame) while supplying support as well?

It looks like we're being held back by our versatility, which is something that can't be avoided being that if they removed our versatility and locked us into one of those roles, they'd alienate a large section of SMNs.


1 - No, because it's only once a minute and costing a good chunk of MP.

2 - Depends on how good it is, and I'm not sure about an all healing avatar. Carby, Levi and Garuda are just fine healing with pacts. Maybe a boost to the healing pacts is in order though?

3 - Again, no. BLM can put out a disgusting amount of damage very fast (not always a good idea but the potential is there)

SMN's always been very versatile, but at the cost of extreme amounts of MP. That's what I'd like to SE do;

BLM is more about managing your hate than your MP. SMN should be the exact reverse, since your pet is taking all the heat, you should be watching how much MP you're spending.

[Wiseman40]

1 - No, because it's only once a minute and costing a good chunk of MP.

2 - Depends on how good it is, and I'm not sure about an all healing avatar. Carby, Levi and Garuda are just fine healing with pacts. Maybe a boost to the healing pacts is in order though?

3 - Again, no. BLM can put out a disgusting amount of damage very fast (not always a good idea but the potential is there)

1. Phantom Roll is once a minute, and we have a ton of MP to use ^^

2. True about it being how good it is. I included this to address the concept of us having more healing power, because our healing power is already pretty good given our massive well of MP. If we have an avatar healing without the use of BPs our healing potential would be tremendous in at least the way of efficiency. If it were carby, for example, it would cost very little mp to maintain, and carby would be healing in a way that wouldn't require additional mp from us.

3. Well yes blm can do that, but if they buffed us anymore in the damage department, particularly endgame, we would too. This is my point. Since I never mentioned the degree of buff, there's of course the potential for us to make other jobs very angry.

This was all done to illustrate SE's hesitation at buffing up smn in some of the ways suggested.

Naturally, being a big fan of smn, I hope they DO buff us.

[Susurrus]

Or maybe make our Group 2 merits useful. -.-

[Malacite]

Phantom Roll also lasts for 5 minutes >_>

The average ward lasts a minute 30 at best.


The biggest challenge here is the durastic change in battle. As BBQ pointed out, SMN was for eliminating large groups quickly (and dealing massive damage to bosses >.>)

In XI, fighting more than 1 XP mob at a time tends to result in death if it's a T or higher. Because of this, the line between SMN and BLM changes and so it becomes a lot harder to balance ><

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Phantom Roll also lasts for 5 minutes >_>

The average ward lasts a minute 30 at best.

Well here's two things we'd have to consider before buffing SMN in this regard.

- What should the duration be?
- Where should summoner specialize in buffing?

I'm pretty sure if SMN got equal duration to CORs, that CORs and especially BRDs wouldn't take kindly to it. COR's buffs are still somewhat randomized, while the potency of BRD songs are still based on skill and instruments. BRD is still guaranteed the most potent buff no matter what. Given these results, I think the durations are rather fair.

SE could fix some BRD merits though because Winning Streak merits are where CORs can destroy BRDs in buff duration.

The other thing is BRD pretty much specializes in melee buffs. COR is no slouch on melee buffs, but in a situation where mages and summoners are concerned, I'm very much inclined to favor COR over BRD and then send a BRD to the melee side.

Since SMNs are generally used for tank support at the highest levels, I think buffing them to support tanks and party defenses the best would be the way to go at even earlier levels. So their buffs should favor endurance as Diabolos, Titan and Garuda's buffs already do. AoE Regens, perhaps a light AoE Refresh (like 1 MP per tick), Defense boost buffs (like Cocoon) and so on.

[Malacite]

Well, just looking at past games, Golem was a hell of a lot more effective than Titan's lolstoneskin (then again, all the summons were better)

SMN buffs are fixed at a 3 minute duration, which is fair IMO. The problem right now is the only way to reach that is to have more skill than your current cap which is utter bull crap on SE's part. No other magic skill works this why, so why does summoning? (Granted, Dark magic is also something of an enigma...)

The defensive buffing is nice, but I prefer SMN as more of a general buffer. Again, my vote is to power up blood pacts significantly and also raise their MP costs. NIN and RNG are limited by money. PLD by it's HP. BLM + DD jobs by their enmity. Why not make SMN limited by it's MP? Let the people who know what pacts to use and when have their fun :angry: The SMN who goes BP-happy destroys the chain

Besides, where's the fun in calling forth a god when some schmuck standing next to you is just gonna blow you out of the water anyway :P