Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

[Dymlos]

Okay guys I'm wondering, after the 2-handed update, is a Hauby still really that needed for a SAM for the +10ACC since 1 Dex = 1 ACC? Right now I'm currently Lv63 SAM and I'm trying to save up for my Hachiman gear. This is my current build that I have:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?123928

I don't have my Chiv. chain yet because I don't have enough AP to buy it and I'm not spending 180k on it when I can get it for free. Should I still get the Hauby down the line when I can easily afford it, or should I stop leveling, farm like mad and go buy it? I was planning to swap out my Sipahi armor for the Hachiman Domaru since that has more STR and Store TP with it as well. When I hit Lv 72, I plan to get my Shinsoku (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Shinsoku)

[Malacite]

Get the haub. It was good before, now it's absolutely sick. Why would you not want 5 STR 5 DEX 15 attack and 15 accuracy? My friend swears by Hachiman being better for WS, and you *could* use it to TP in with the Store TP... but I have to say, get the Haub for sure. It's a very solid body armor.

Shinsoku's ok. I prefer Soboro personally, and I'm working on getting Hagun.

[Kirsteena]

For my money, the hauby is still the best body piece for sam by a long chalk.

[Dymlos]

Well I went and bought my Hauby, got it for 420k. I'm down to 30k though, now I gotta start savin up again for Shinsoku, luckily that's only 200k. >>

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I wouldn't worry about getting a Shinsoku over an Onimaru if you cannot afford it. There really isn't that much difference. Eventually you will want to save for a Hagun anyway.

[Omni]

Hagun is the way to go.

[Dymlos]

Even though Shinosku has the +5 STR bonus for WS damage?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Don't think of that +15 acc (5 from DEX) as extra accuracy you don't need. Think of it as acc to help get you eating meat more comfortably, instead of relying on sushi.

[Armando]

Even though Shinosku has the +5 STR bonus for WS damage?If it's WS damage you're after then 5 STR is garbage next to what an extra 100 TP will do for Yuki/Gekko/Kasha.

[Eji Kazuma]

Also... it should be noted Shinsoku < Onimaru < Hagun.

Samurai swords are very sneaky at the end of the game, Shinsoku has the out right stats, but Onimaru has higher attack and has a latent that adds +5 Acc and +16 Attk when you have less the 100% TP.

Even better then that though is the Hagun which has the ever popular TP Bonus effect. Rather then adding TP to your strikes, or draining TP like shinsoku, Hagun adds 100% TP to your WEAPONSKILL.

Meaning, a WS performed at 100% TP is the same as 200% TP, and so on... Making Hagun the clear winner... "Army Breaker" 'Yes Please'

[Malacite]

I'm not so sure about that anymore. Hagun's lost some of it's edge.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tachi:_Yukikaze

Properties

* Element: None

* Skillchain properties: Induration/Detonation

* Modifiers: STR:75%

* Damage Multipliers by TP:

100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.75 2.00 2.50


the gap from 100 to 200 TP is no longer as big. Now, Hagun will still rock if you have 200, but comparing 100 to 200 now, Hagun isn't as clear cut as it used to be. Shinsoku has both higher base damage (+5) and that 5 STR bonus.

[Eji Kazuma]

Hrmm... I didn't realize that the difference in DMG was so small with great katana... given that TP is their bread and butter, that really seems strange...

However, the only thing I'd ask about is what modifier the actual TP effects on DMG... since all Weapon skills deal greater DMG modifiers when you have higher TP... but Samurai Weapons skills all have the "Damage Varries with TP" on them... Granted, the extra 5 Attack and extra 5 STR of Shinsoku is still nice, I'd probably take Onimaru over Shinsoku... and Hagun still over the other two.

[Dymlos]

I still would love to get a Hagun, not sure how I'm going to get it. I'll probably get an Onimaru and use that for now until I can afford a Hagun. If I had a Soboro then I would be fine right now. But for the moment, busy camping OKote NM. >.>

[Malacite]

I posted the new modifiers above for yourselves to see. Hagun is still better for 200 TP, but at 100 TP not so much anymore. I heard on some servers people are actually ditching it in favor of Shinsoku or Onimaru and that it's as low as 600k. It's still about 1 mil on Seraph though.

Someone's going to have to parse these weapons. Before the update, Hagun was the king without question (.5 difference in TP modifier) but now it's only .25

[Armando]

I believe Hagun would still win. A change from 1.75 to 2.0 in the multiplier is still a 14% increase in WS damage while Shinsoku only does about 7% more damage over time than Hagun on normal hits alone. WSs already made up a big part of a SAM's total damage (what with being able to WS after just 5 hits,) and now the modifiers are even higher so in relation to how things were pre-patch, WS damage makes up an even bigger portion of a SAM's damage. So yeah, I would still place my bets on Hagun.

But yeah, Onimaru beats Shinsoku for sure, no parsing needed there. Onimaru vs Hagun is a tough call though.

[Malacite]

The thing that throws me off lately is a friend of mine (he myself and one other friend are all 75 SAM's ^^) swears that all the +STR you can get makes a huge impact now.

He was boasting some pretty big numbers with Hachiman Domaru compared to Haubergeon... and if that's true, then wouldn't Shinsoku at least match Hagun? Yeah there's a bigger multiplier on Hagun, but shinsoku effectively has nearly 10 DMG more on it (5 base +5 STR with 75% mod)

[raidenn]

Guess it depends if you have enough accuracy. Its a nice item to have though. I stopped for a month to farm for it around your level... That was when it costs 3mil.
------------------------------------------
By the way, you'll get a lot of damage from STR gear because of the WS modifiers.
here's a description on how much STR contributes...

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tachi:_Gekko

Just remember even with all the str you have, when you're fighting hi-evasion mobs, it kinda sucks to miss on your weaponskills.

[Armando]

No offense to you or your friend, but anyone that thinks that 1) trivial amounts of STR (e.g. 5 STR) make a huge difference, and 2) that he/she can see that difference, is fooling himself. The fact is that STR doesn't make big differences point-for-point in a WS's base DMG, and that WSs have such a big damage range that you can't hope to notice the difference before your observations fall prey to bias (e.g. "Oh, that was a high Gekko! It must've been the extra STR!") Anyways, let's do some math to see how big/small the difference is now.

Shinsoku has a 9 DMG advantage over Hagun (3 from the STR mod, which has approximately a conversion ratio of 0.6225 DMG per 1 STR at Lv.75; 1 from fSTR, since very 4 STR or so raises fSTR by 1; and obviously 5 from normal DMG.) But how much that 9 DMG is worth depends on how much STR you already have. Obviously if you could have 10000 DMG then 9 more is just a drop in the bucket.

Let's say both SAMs have about 100 STR with gear taken into consideration.
- Mr. Hagun SAM would have 75 DMG from Hagun, 62 DMG from the STR mod, and let's say an fSTR of 6. Total: 143 DMG.
- Mr. Shinsoku SAM would have 80 DMG from Shinsoku, 65 DMG from the STR mod, and an fSTR of 7. Total: 152 DMG

Shinsoku SAM has 6.3% more DMG than Hagun SAM right now. (As you can see, 9 DMG is only a 6.3% improvement, which is too small to eyeball, and you'd need 10-12 STR to get that much extra DMG into your WS.) Shinsoku SAM has an fTP multiplier of 1.75, bringing his WS's base damage to 266. On the other hand, Hagun SAM has an fTP multiplier of 2.00, bringing his WS's base damage to 286.

So in this example the Hagun SAM actually has a 7.5% advantage overall compared to the one using Shinsoku, despite Shinsoku's extra 9 DMG. Shinsoku also has an extra 5 Attack over Hagun, but 5 Attack isn't enough to close that gap.

Onimaru would have 8 extra DMG instead of 9, but also have 5 Acc and 16 Attack (as opposed to Shinsoku's 5 Attack.) With that and 10% more DMG/sec than Hagun, Onimaru could win in terms of total DMG.

EDIT: And Hachiman Domaru sucks next to Haubergeon. 8 STR, 8 Attack, 8 WS Acc vs 5 STR, 15 Attack, 15 Acc...it's obvious who the winner is. Losing out on Attack and Acc for a meager 3 STR is not a good idea.

[Omni]

Malacite, you have a lot of friends that swear a lot of things. :p

anyhow, hachiman doesnt compare with a haubie but its a cheap and good alternative if you cant afford a haubie.

[Dymlos]

Well like I said, I bought my Hauby. Now I'm wondering what would be better, Okote for the +20 attack, or Hachiman kote? +20 attack is great but I wouldn't mind having that Store TP +8 (w/Hachiman boots) to help slightly boost my TP gain. I've tried camping Okote NM and at times I wonder if it's really worth the trouble.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Hachiman Kote is arguably better if it lowers the number of hits required to obtain 100TP by one. The +16 ATK and -4 STR that Okote provides compared to Hkote just isn't enough. Remember 4 STR raises base damage by 1 and gives you 4 ATK.

Hachiman Kote helps me output 25% more Penta Thrusts while using an Engetsuto polearm. It does this by bringing me from a 6-hit TP build down to a 5-hit TP build, which is at least a 12% improvement in overall damage since more of my damage comes from WS than DoT.

[Omni]

Store TP imo, shouldnt be considered as a factor unless you are going for a store tp build.

[Malacite]

I was skeptical when he made that those claims and I still am. I kept telling him there's no way 3 more STR is better than the attack bonus from Haub >_>

[Lmnop]

Store TP imo, shouldnt be considered as a factor unless you are going for a store tp build.

You're right. The H Kote shouldn't be considered by themselves. They're only better than O Kote if they're gonna get you a WS one swing earlier. If them + another easy piece of store tp+ will do the trick, then by all means do it. Way cheaper than Haste gear.

EDIT: Incidentally, Store TP IV (25%) + Hachiman Hands/feet (13%) + Brutal (1%) + Chiv Chain (1%) still isn't enough to get you to a 5 hit build. Unless I figured something wrong. 450 GK is 11.5 base tp. All the above mentioned Store TP adds up to 40% so 11.5*1.4=16.1. In 6 swings 16.1*6=96.6 + 7th "free" hit from last WS. You need just a wee bit more to push you over the edge.

[Zempten]

I think the only time to even consider a store TP setup is after you get 5/5 Store TP Merits.

[Malacite]

I think the only time to even consider a store TP setup is after you get 5/5 Store TP Merits.

Not true. You can do it at level 70 for 6-hit if you use Hachiman gear, and it's well worth it IMO. The merits just help you switch out more pieces of equipment.


Finally, I made a store TP thread a while back and you need somewhere aroudn 71-74% (I forget exact amount) Store TP for a 5-hit build, which requires a lot of expensive and rare equipment.

You're better off going for a haste set up anyway since if you can reach 50% or higher (gear + abilities) you'll be swinging twice as often and with a Soboro that's just evil.

[Zempten]

What I mean is your better off TPing in Hauby and O.Kote or whatever Haste gear, which you just said yourself.

I didn't say it was impossible just impractical given the alternatives