Meripo & /NIN

[DeebsTundra]

I just recently hit 75 and therefore have barely broken the ice on merit parties. ...but several times I've been for lack of a better word, "hassled" because I don't have a 37 Ninja subjob. ...cmon. ...is /nin really so important in merit parties? I'm a dragoon for crying outloud. /nin gives me nothing but shadows at that level. I'd rather taken a Regen II or III after pulling hate with an 1800 damage Penta-Thrust than not have access to berserk, warcry, meditate, hasso etc. I've been telling people that it's not leveled (which is sort of true, my nin being 18.)

One guy actually asked me to join his pt, then told me nevermind after he asked and I said, "Sorry, no ninja sub."

Experienced Meriters, got any suggestions? Drg/nin is worthless in my opinion. Shadows or not.


Offtopic Side-rant: I'm so tired of the answer to everything being "Utsusemi" Use your other job abilities for crying out loud. I had a drg/nin in an early 70's party that would pull hate and not Super Jump. I'm really surprised nobody has shouted Nin/nin {Can I have it?} yet. Ninja is not the end all beat all job and subjob in the game. >.>

[Kiyoko77]

Merit PTs are not XP PT's and anything goes! ....But yeah though, you must have NIN sub to survive the craziness that ensues!


Ninja is not the end all beat all job and subjob in the game. >.>

For Merit PTs yes they are!

[DeebsTundra]

Merit PTs are not XP PT's and anything goes! ....But yeah though, you must have NIN sub to survive the craziness that ensues!

So the virtual merit party I was in with a brd/nin, a whm/nin, a nin/war, a mnk/nin, a drk/nin and me as /war... ...I was wrong to go with /war despite the fact after a bad Greater Colibri link and some mis-placed spells, they all wiped and I was last man standing and still got away scot-free without /nin?

[Armando]

I don't think you understand the point of a merit party (or at least the kind of merit party the term usually refers to these days.)

It's all about near-endless chains and survivability. Taking no damage is better than taking some when you can blow through mobs at such a ridiculous rate that the only thing that could stop your chain is not having the MP to go on. You say /NIN offers you nothing but shadows, but that's the ENTIRE point of it.

You say you'd rather take some Regens than sub /NIN. Well, consider the amount of MP spent on Regens when no melee subs NIN compared to when they all do. The difference is big and obvious.

Many people loathe this trend, but the fact is that it's here to stay. SE has done nothing to discourage it, and in fact, have stated that rather than kill off meleeburns they'd rather pump up alternative party styles (not that they've done much about that yet either.) If you want to get the invites you're going to need /NIN.

It's a useful sub anyways. Not unlike /WAR. Sure, it's kind of lame that shadows solve everything but jeez, stop hating on a sub just for the sake of hating on it.

[Murphie]

There are always going to be exceptions. But for safety, and speed of kills, most parties are going to ask you to meripo as /NIN. If you don't want to sub it, you don't have to, but that is going to affect your options a little bit. Unless you make all your own meripo parties.

I know when I'm in a party with BRD/NIN and 4xMelee, the ones that don't sub NIN are the ones that eat all of my MP. And yeah, it's there to be used, but when everyone subs /NIN, we don't have to stop. When they don't, we do.

[Kiyoko77]

A long time friend of mine thats been playing since day 1 Japan release invited me over one night to check out how his static merit PTs go. Yeah my jaw was on the floor at the craziness I witnessed.

Just 6 ppl, I forget all the main jobs, and everyone had /NIN. The one to watch was the BRD though. He was the puller and I'd never seen anything like this done so well in my life.

Anyway as the other 5 stood in a circle and were beating one mob down, the BRD was keeping the fighting going by sleeping mobs up in a line outside the chaos. He had at several times 4-5 mobs sleeping and waiting their turn to die. As the 1 in the center was near death he'd wake the next one in a line and pull it into the center of battle and set it right where the other is. {Usually right before the other died, and battle continued.} Nobody ever had to put away their weps or stop, just a constant flow of mobs and I watched this group do this for nearly 4hrs straight.

That BRD was the ultimate master in crowd control/pulling I've ever seen. I was just speechless at how amazing this group was! Especially that BRD!!!

[DeebsTundra]

Ok, maybe I went about "hating" on ninja the wrong way. ...let me rephrase. ...on Ramuh, the typical merit party camps (Greater Colibri in Bhaflau, Mamool Ja Staging Point and Caederva Mire) are jammed. The idea of a merit party is to go after stuff that dies easy and chain like crazy. ...So look at the example of the Greater Colibri camps. 3 levels, 11 spawns on the 2nd level and 10 on the lower. Every single time I've been there, it's attempting to support 2 parties on each level. I've partied there 3 times at all times of the day and night and there is no chance any of those parties are chaining higher than 6, MAYBE 7 if they get lucky and the other party is half-asleep. So why sub a sub that you wouldn't sub in normal exp? After all, the way I see it, Merit is just a faster form of exp. And if the chains are going to die out anyway to to camp overcrowding why not sub something that's going to give me that extra "umph" on damage?

By the way, for anybody thinking it, I'm not hostile, just trying to understand.

Edit~~ Thank you to whoever moved this.

[Eohmer]

As far as overcrowded camps... for that 1 second it takes to cure you, another party already pulled your possible prey.

[Aksannyi]

Well since my linkshell despises the "ZOMG PULL FASTER PULL FASTER" style of meripo (and because I hate main healing) we tend to take a more traditional set up along with us, and because of that, we don't give a good god damn what you sub. Unfortunately, our LS is the minority, it seems.

I understand why /NIN is so important, but I don't like it. And since I won't join one of those OMFGCHAIN9000 parties to begin with, it hardly matters. My ninja is sitting at 15, and it's staying that way. Even though, as RDM in most meripo, I'd be /WHM and main healing anyway.

[BurningPanther]

Seconded. People constantly espouse the wonders of those rapid-exp parties, but the fact of the matters is that, while certain things like /NIN are required to get an invite to such parties, you can certainly do without them. You can sub what you please(within reason--ah fuck it, sub what you please), just be prepared to possibly be discounted from those high-chain setups.

Though, it's getting harder to find like-minded individuals...

[Aksannyi]

I'm perfectly content to have just Slow II right now, with my limited playtime I want to have fun when I'm out and about in Vana'diel, not want to beat my head through a brick wall.

[Omni]

Ok, maybe I went about "hating" on ninja the wrong way. ...let me rephrase. ...on Ramuh, the typical merit party camps (Greater Colibri in Bhaflau, Mamool Ja Staging Point and Caederva Mire) are jammed. The idea of a merit party is to go after stuff that dies easy and chain like crazy. ...So look at the example of the Greater Colibri camps. 3 levels, 11 spawns on the 2nd level and 10 on the lower. Every single time I've been there, it's attempting to support 2 parties on each level. I've partied there 3 times at all times of the day and night and there is no chance any of those parties are chaining higher than 6, MAYBE 7 if they get lucky and the other party is half-asleep. So why sub a sub that you wouldn't sub in normal exp? After all, the way I see it, Merit is just a faster form of exp. And if the chains are going to die out anyway to to camp overcrowding why not sub something that's going to give me that extra "umph" on damage?
By the way, for anybody thinking it, I'm not hostile, just trying to understand.
Edit~~ Thank you to whoever moved this.

again, its for survivability. you dont need that 'umph' when you'll be pulling hate and having the healer spend unnecessary mp on you. you might say, well i can kill the mob faster. it will be hardly any faster than you will with /nin because theres only so much hp on a mob for you to pound on. if you dont ws, someone else in ur pt will ws. your kill rate will be slowed down much more by your 1 healer having to rest for mp than you subbing /nin.

its perfectly fine i think if you dont like the high chain pts. if you dont like the high pace, cant stop or youll break chain attitude ppl have, i completely understand. BUT, if you dont like those pts, then dont join them as some ppl have said. you cant fault ppl for wanting to make an efficient pt either.

personally, i like the high chain pts due to the fact that once i get off work, i dont have a whole lot of time left in the day to play. if i get a pt, i want to get the most out of it. getting 5 merits in 2 hours fits my play time better.

[DeebsTundra]

As far as overcrowded camps... for that 1 second it takes to cure you, another party already pulled your possible prey.

I'd debate that considering I've never seen someone mainhealing and pulling at the same time.

------------

I guess I'm fighting a losing battle considering it's the classic subjob "argument." But maybe I like the near 700 attack I get with Berserk and Warcry, and using the first 60% of the Great Colibri's health to build TP. ...then buffing, unleashing and taking the other 40% off myself. Maybe it's just the way I see, but I dont see shadows getting cast very often when I'm in parties with the exception of the tank. But that's just my opinion.

Sorry I asked, just let the thread die.

[Murphie]

I know you asked for the thread to die, but seriously - meripo is not about your WTFPWN damage. It's about getting exp for everyone.

Also, most meripo don't have "tanks".

Again, if you prefer one style, that's totally cool. But you are limiting your options with regard to meripo options. And as long as you're ok with that, then there's really nothing more to say. But it sounds as though you're not ok with that, and you want everyone else to do things your way, rather than doing things everyone else's way.

[DeebsTundra]

and you want everyone else to do things your way, rather than doing things everyone else's way.

I shouldn't respond to this but I will. First off even if I was trying to tell people to do things my way, (which I'm not) how is that any more excuseable than other people telling me to do it their way?

I don't care if other people want to sub nin. I don't get into a party and say, "wtf, you are all ninja, that's stupid." But if I don't want to sub nin, because I'd rather deal the damage out to help kill said mob, don't complain and kick me out because I don't want to do it your way. If the exp flows, the exp flows.

The original post was a simple question about why people were so adamant about having /nin. I understand that fine, but I've taken a little bit of a beating here because I don't want to sub nin. ...I think it's pointless when the basic idea of a merit party is to kill fast. ...and I killer fastER with a DD style sub as opposed to "omg, please don't hit me so the whm has to regen me."

[Eohmer]

I'd debate that considering I've never seen someone mainhealing and pulling at the same time.

With that in mind, do you know who the most common pullers are in meriting?

Hint: It's not thieves or rangers.

[Murphie]

By "you want everyone to do things your way", I mean, you want people to invite you without subbing /NIN, even though it's what is best for the party. So you want people to make allowances for what you want to do, but you're not making allowances for what they want.

[Omni]

sounds like you enjoy flexing the epeen. i dont mean that as an attack but from what youre saying it seems thats just how it is for you. its all about how you can take 60% of the mobs hp. or how you can solo a mob.

while youre off securing hate for yourself and taking a 4 hit peckling fury (easily taking 500-600 dmg) in the face with zerk up and getting critical'd, your poor mage is scrambling to keep you alive from something that can be prevented most of the time if you had your shadows up.

youre in a pt to play with other people, not by yourself.

taru edit: if you're not making the pt yourself, you cant really be picky about how other people want to play. if im heading out to northern thickets for some meriting, i want my pt to be ready. because if you arent, everyone isnt going to get much xp since youll have other pts pulling over you.

taru edit II: you dont kill faster with /war sub. you know why? because you're not soloing the frickin mob. you have 3 other melee there beating on it. the increase in kill speed is so marginal compared to the mp being used on you when you inevitably pull hate.

taru edit III: dont take what ppl are saying a theyre trying to give you a hard time. they only say it because its tried and true.

[Murphie]

Needs moar taru edits.

[DeebsTundra]

while youre off securing hate for yourself and taking a 4 hit peckling fury (easily taking 500-600 dmg) in the face with zerk up and getting critical'd, your poor mage is scrambling to keep you alive from something that can be prevented most of the time if you had your shadows up.


My point exactly. Do I take 500-600 damage off a pecking flurry? Yes. ...how often do I get hit by pecking flurry? 1/50 times. I'm not joking, and you can say I'm a liar as much as you want. I am a DRAGOON. ...dragoon gets this really awesome incredible ability called Super Jump. Super Jump erases hate. Berserk has a 5 minute recast, so does Warcry. Super Jump has a 3 minute recast. So since I watch my abilities like a hawk, I don't WS unless either A) I know it's going to kill the mob, or B) Super Jump is up. 1600+ WS followed by super jump = Where'd the dragoon go and all the hate he just accumulated.

I'm done, I'm not posting on this again. I'm sick of trying to make a point about sub vs sub and how dragoon with -33% hate from High Jump and -99.9% of it. ...so excuse me for knowing how my job works and how to deal out a tremendous amount of damage and keep my enmity below threshold.

I'm done.

[Omni]

so youre saying u ws once every 3min then. ok... /war works in that case.

i dont think you're lying about shedding hate but i think youre just not aware of how well youre mage is healing so when you do take dmg, you dont feel in danger. thus, you dont notice it as a big threat to sub war.\

i had a drg in my pt last night. lv. 58 pt killing lesser colibris by the ley point in woodlands. he had to hold himself back because he already ate it twice from dropping big pentas on the mob. holding yourself back completely negates all the dmg increase you get from /war.

[Murphie]

What a bunch of jerkfaces we are, not letting this guy do his 1600 damage every three minutes attack in meripo.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I have my own way of dealing with people who make me sub /NIN.

They don't get Corsair's Roll :P

And just to goad them further, I will sub NIN and do Corsair's Roll for Manaburn PTs since those other PTs were too cool to SC/MB and wanted "meree onry."

[Murphie]

I can't imagine there are really that many parties forcing you to /NIN, BBQ.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I can't imagine there are really that many parties forcing you to /NIN, BBQ.

You'd be surprised how many PTs end up with "Oops, we couldn't get a BRD" and are all like "COR is like a BRD, right? Gun = Pull, huhuhu."

Seriously, I've been tempted to sell my Peacemaker (270 Delay gun) I use to pull at merit camps to fund BST, but I'd feel really dirty if I did that, even though I could make 500k on it right now. Kinda what to keep it for /WHM and the - enmity build anyway.

[Murphie]

True. I've seen that reasoning in parties many times before. :/

[Necropolis]

Perhaps late to the conversation, but...

I don't think /nin is always needed for jobs that don't benefit from dual wield and utsusemi, but keep in mind who's inviting you. It's a pick-up party, with people that don't know how you play, your abilities, or the abilities of the healer.

In LS meripo, most of the two handers do not typically sub nin, because we know how each other plays. We've spents hours upon hours working with each other as a team, and are very familier with each person's playstyle. For example, I know when Ocean uses soul eater I need to toss a Regen3 and a couple cures until hate is reestablished (or the mob dies like normal).

In a pick-up party, I prefer the melee go /nin. Simply because it's the safe choice and still remains highly effective. A typical TP-burn meripo can easily do 15k+ upwards with all the melee as /nin. Wars don't need ridills, mnks don't need black belts to do this. Just let the mages keep thier MP and the chains can continue.

I typically meripo on whm on my main, though I have started playing brd or rdm on my alt as well. If I'm in a pick-up meripo and I see a non-/nin melee get hit I'm going to assume that it's not a rare occurance until proven otherwise. So I'll be reaching for a Cure5/4 as opposed to a Regen. Even with a 1000 MP you can become a quick drain on the healers if you eat some TP moves.

Healers in your typical TP-burn are there more as Haste/Dia machines and cure as a secondary role. Also keep in mind that a lot of 75s don't view meripo as content, but just something you have to do to keep a buffer and finish up merits that will be used for bigger and better fights, so not everyone is neccessarily on thier A-game.

If someone is building a party, with TP burn in mind looking for /nin melee, I don't think you'd have the right to complain that much. You can build your own meripo, or wait for another invite. But it's just a matter that people know this setup works and is less variable than hoping the melees you grab will not be MP sponges.

No one is saying /nin is better for damage, just that it's a tried and true method of quickly meriting with minimal effort. Meripo becomes and mindless, dual activity after a while, and a lot of people just would rather just focus on other fights than have to work with a party that much. Not really saying thats a right attitude to have, but it's there. Nin sub works, we know it works, a lot have already accepted that. Using it in dynamis and other large fights can be advised if you're doing the event with minimal healers.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I see the point being made that DRG/WAR works just fine as long as the player avoids pulling hate by holding off on Penta Thrust until the enemy is guaranteed to die or has Super Jump ready to shed hate (High Jump if other melees have used WS).

Even players with /NIN probably eat an unlucky Pecking Flurry once in a while. However that being said, I believe DRG can benefit the party equally by using /NIN, /SAM, or /BLU while not having to hold TP. It is up to the player to make their subjob work.

Deebs appears to be working to make /WAR an acceptable choice in burn parties, and I hope these responses have improved his understanding of why people ask for /NIN. Next time Deebs, perhaps you should politely explain to the party that you will be saving TP to finish off the enemy when your Super Jump is unavailable. Do you happen to ask if the melees have Windower or if you should be telling the party your TP status?

[pyromaniac]

Honestly SAM is prolly only job that can use /war in meripo pts thats it cause Third eye tanking rocks!!!! which i ususally do since soboro sam is almost best dd now in merit pts :x but i sometimes tank better with third eye than i do with Utsu so.... idk i like Third eye :D

[Omni]

seigan/3E does rock! however, for some reason SAMs I pt with never seem to know to use it, even with its low cooldown timer of 1min for seigan and 30s for 3E.

some people just see zomg, i get 10str from hasso and never seem to want to switch it off. even if they are taking 5-6 shots to the face.
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I see the point being made that DRG/WAR works just fine as long as the player avoids pulling hate by holding off on Penta Thrust until the enemy is guaranteed to die or has Super Jump ready to shed hate (High Jump if other melees have used WS).
Even players with /NIN probably eat an unlucky Pecking Flurry once in a while. However that being said, I believe DRG can benefit the party equally by using /NIN, /SAM, or /BLU while not having to hold TP. It is up to the player to make their subjob work.
Deebs appears to be working to make /WAR an acceptable choice in burn parties, and I hope these responses have improved his understanding of why people ask for /NIN. Next time Deebs, perhaps you should politely explain to the party that you will be saving TP to finish off the enemy when your Super Jump is unavailable. Do you happen to ask if the melees have Windower or if you should be telling the party your TP status?


drg/war works fine no one said it doesnt but when you're in a merit pt and you tp so damn fast, you will be letting penta go every 30-45s. keep in mind that super jump/high jump timers are at 3minutes each.

there WILL be times when you use penta and you will have no hate shedding abilties.

and from the looks of it, I'm sure he wouldnt want to cancel zerk on its 5min cooldown because that cut into his moar damagez.

anyhow, its kind of pointless to go on about this really. his whole point was to find people to agree with him that playing selfishly is moar bettar than playing smart.