X:San Ninjitsu Debuff Effect

[Olorin401]

Had this question come up last night during Dynamis:Xarcabard..

I was asking for someone to cast Suiton:Ichi on Dynamis Lord, so we could get an extra Lightning defense-down effect on him to help Stuns stick. Someone asked "hey why not use Ni or San?" I knew the answer about X:Ichi vs. x:Ni (Ichi gives -30 elemental, Ni only -15) but not about X:San. Anyone happen to know how much it gives?

[Armando]

Um, Ni gives -30 too. And for that matter so does Ancient Magic. I'd guess San would be no different. Quickest way to find out is to reserve Diorama with someone and ask him to tell you by how much his resistance dropped.

[Omniblast]

Armando, I need to ignore you as well, as that's a NWF image. ;)

[Callisto]

Armando, I need to ignore you as well, as that's a NWF image. ;)
Yeah, my boss flipped when he saw that owl avatar.

[Malacite]

It's cool, but I liked the other pic better :O

<3 the sig though. What anime is that from?

[Icemage]

It's cool, but I liked the other pic better :O
<3 the sig though. What anime is that from?
Off-topic, but it's from Lucky Star.

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I'm curious about the debuff effect on the San line as well. Even if it just lasts a little longer, it'd be worthwhile IMO.


Icemage

[Malacite]

What's the easiest way to test this? Ballista?

Also, again semi off-topic but NIN/BLM spamming San wheel ftw

[Icemage]

What's the easiest way to test this? Ballista?
That would be the best way to test it, yes. More specifically Diorama Abjhaljs-Ghelsba.

Also, again semi off-topic but NIN/BLM spamming San wheel ftw
NIN/BLM at 75 is pointless. Against HNM, you're not going to garner enough hate, and the Ninjutsu spam will boost their magic resistance, making your BLMs weaker. Also pretty pointless in merit parties, as being able to Provoke a slept target is more important than a bit of extra damage.

Considering you can only get access to San ninjutsu at 75, the answer should be obvious...


Icemage

[Malacite]

Thing is though, a friend of mine on the server has a NIN buddy who can do 600-800 per san spell on /BLM >_>

[IfritnoItazura]

Thing is though, a friend of mine on the server has a NIN buddy who can do 600-800 per san spell on /BLM >_>

Oh? Screenshots, please. ^_^

[Icemage]

Thing is though, a friend of mine on the server has a NIN buddy who can do 600-800 per san spell on /BLM >_>
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/59334-new-ninjutsu.html

Base damage on these is reported to be ~200, assumedly against merit-worthy targets (this matches up to what I've seen on the rare occasions I've seen them used as well). Since there's no way to triple your damage output on magic damage, I call BS unless you have screenshots to prove this. :)


Icemage

[Malacite]

Can't say I have any screens of the San spells, but if Ni can do this to VT crabs

http://img99.exs.cx/img99/8466/pol2004-10-1313-41-49-68.jpg


San isn't that big of a stretch. Might have been 400-600, but it was a hell of a lot of dmg. Let's not forget what a massive performance gap there is between Ichi and Ni either.

[IfritnoItazura]

San isn't that big of a stretch. Might have been 400-600, but it was a hell of a lot of dmg. Let's not forget what a massive performance gap there is between Ichi and Ni either.

Well, I've already experienced the between Ichi and Ni peronsally, but it was Ni -> San which we're were asking about.

An experienced NIN I asked flat out said the San series wasn't worth using the wheel with at Lv.75, so pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical about the claim of 600-800 damage, or even 400-600 damage.

[Malacite]

Just got a message from my friend, he says his NIN buddy was doing upwards of 500 dmg with INT and MAB on.

I figured 800 was a little high myself (been a while since I got the exact figures) but over 400 per spell is still really freaking good for a 2.5 second cast time.

[IfritnoItazura]

Is that one merit in each San -ton Ninjutsu, for doing the wheel? Or is this 500 from MB'ing with a single Ninjutsu that has full merit? Any screenshot? ^_^

[Malacite]

1 Merit in each, and he does the wheel (upwards of 500 dmg per spell) with MAB, INT and staves. Believe me, if I had screens I'd post 'em. Maybe my friend can mail me some >_>

[Omni]

maybe you should have him email them to you.

is it 400 per spell? or 600-800 per spell?
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Can't say I have any screens of the San spells, but if Ni can do this to VT crabs
http://img99.exs.cx/img99/8466/pol2004-10-1313-41-49-68.jpg
San isn't that big of a stretch. Might have been 400-600, but it was a hell of a lot of dmg. Let's not forget what a massive performance gap there is between Ichi and Ni either.

by proving you can push Ni dmg up ~60-70 points doesnt mean you prove san dmg can reach 600-800 dmg per spell.

what is it? 400 dmg? 800 dmg? 500 dmg? your numbers are all over the place.

[Malacite]

Between 400 and 500.

[Jovant]

Hmmm...
All Elemental Spells, Ichi-Ni-San, All Give -30 Resistence.
The Difference With The Spells Are The Casting Times, How Long The Resistance Stays On The Mob, & The Damage Output.
Ichi: Resistance Down last For 8 Sec
Ni: Resistance Down last For 10 Sec
San: Resistance Down last For 12 Sec
I 'Think' This Is Right. Someone Told Me Before Awhile Back.
Edit: Doing An Elemental Wheel In A Certain Way Your Damage Output Will Increase (Hyoton > Katon > Suiton > Raiton > Doton > Huton > Hyoton, ectect). Thus, Is Why Elemental Wheel isnt Used With Ichi Spells Because The Effect Of The Resistance Down Is Too Low For it To Last To Get Off The Next Spell.

[Armando]

That's off, Ichi, Ni, and Ancient Magic resistance down all last 15 secs.

[Jovant]

That's off, Ichi, Ni, and Ancient Magic resistance down all last 15 secs.
Hmmm... Well I Was Told It Was Ichi Is 8 Ni Is 10 And San Was 12... Unless It Was Ichi:8 Ni:12 San:15... But Ummm, Yea.... It Was Tested. How?With The Ichi Spells... Test1)Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have That Same Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell Right After. Test2) Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have A Diffenernt Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell While The First Ninja Is Half Way Completed His Spell. The Damage Calculation Will Be Different Everytime, Favoring "Test2" Because The Damage Of The Seconed Ninja Will Always Be Greater.

[Taskmage]

That test methodology doesn't make any sense.

Edit: Oh, and since I've already posted here, my boss did a double take at that sig too, Armando.

[IfritnoItazura]

I 'Think' This Is Right. Someone Told Me Before Awhile Back.
And, someone once told me Americans are white and everyone in U.S.A. was rich.

Anyway, the "someone" here correcting you is Armando. Since it's Armando, highly recommend you just take what he writes as facts, and disregard any previous "someone" who told you anything which contradicts what Armando says.

Not that Armando is never wrong, but he is right the vast majority of times--and always lets us know when when he gets something wrong and explains how it happened and reports his finding on how things actually work.

Hmmm... Well I Was Told It Was Ichi Is 8 Ni Is 10 And San Was 12... Unless It Was Ichi:8 Ni:12 San:15... But Ummm, Yea.... It Was Tested. How?With The Ichi Spells... Test1)Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have That Same Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell Right After. Test2) Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have A Diffenernt Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell While The First Ninja Is Half Way Completed His Spell. The Damage Calculation Will Be Different Everytime, Favoring "Test2" Because The Damage Of The Seconed Ninja Will Always Be Greater.
I'd agree with Taskmage on how the methodology makes no sense, except I'm not entirely sure I can interpret it correctly. ◀/sigh▶

[Icemage]

Hmmm... Well I Was Told It Was Ichi Is 8 Ni Is 10 And San Was 12... Unless It Was Ichi:8 Ni:12 San:15... But Ummm, Yea.... It Was Tested. How?With The Ichi Spells... Test1)Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have That Same Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell Right After. Test2) Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have A Diffenernt Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell While The First Ninja Is Half Way Completed His Spell. The Damage Calculation Will Be Different Everytime, Favoring "Test2" Because The Damage Of The Seconed Ninja Will Always Be Greater.
Makes no sense to me, either. I'd like to see some formalized proof before making any such claim.

I don't know if you're aware, but all elemental debuff effects do is reduce your chance to resist the damage, where resistance comes in nice, digestible fractions like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/10, etc. Any Bard worth their salt will tell you this is precisely how Threnodies work (which are basically like the debuff effect of elemental Ninjutsu and Ancient Magic, only without the damage portion).


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Makes no sense to me, either. I'd like to see some formalized proof before making any such claim.
I don't know if you're aware, but all elemental debuff effects do is reduce your chance to resist the damage, where resistance comes in nice, digestible fractions like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/10, etc. Any Bard worth their salt will tell you this is precisely how Threnodies work (which are basically like the debuff effect of elemental Ninjutsu and Ancient Magic, only without the damage portion).
IcemageIn other words, if "The Damage Of The Seconed Ninja Will Always Be Greater" then that has nothing to do with a resistance down effect. Only a difference in INT, magic attack bonus or I believe level will modify the damage number itself.

[Icemage]

In other words, if "The Damage Of The Seconed Ninja Will Always Be Greater" then that has nothing to do with a resistance down effect. Only a difference in INT, magic attack bonus or I believe level will modify the damage number itself.
Correct. The magic damage formulas are well known and easily tested.


Icemage

[Jovant]

Makes no sense to me, either. I'd like to see some formalized proof before making any such claim.

I don't know if you're aware, but all elemental debuff effects do is reduce your chance to resist the damage, where resistance comes in nice, digestible fractions like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/10, etc. Any Bard worth their salt will tell you this is precisely how Threnodies work (which are basically like the debuff effect of elemental Ninjutsu and Ancient Magic, only without the damage portion).


Icemage

makes total sense >.>; if the ninjas are the same lv same race... no gear...
Test 1) have 1 ninja ichi spell and then cast the resistance down down of that spell after. sooo for all u people thats thinking impaired...

example: cast hyoton: ichi then cast katon ichi
Test 2) have 1 ninja ichi spell and then have another ninja cast the resistance down of the firsts ninjas spell it the half way point (to cacth the resistance down effect) soooo again for all u people thinking impaired..
example: ninja 1 cast hyoton: Ichi then when ninja 1's casting is half way completed have ninja 2 cast katon ichi.
doing this will favor ninja 2's damage being greater then ninja 1's if not all then most likely 70% of the time. and the link for the resistance down times are here "http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ninja" i dont know if my friend got it from here but i sure as hell see it here with my oen eyes... i know wiki is used and edited by people but they havent changed it here yet so im thinking what they say as truth over any of you

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmmm... Well I Was Told It Was Ichi Is 8 Ni Is 10 And San Was 12... Unless It Was Ichi:8 Ni:12 San:15... But Ummm, Yea.... It Was Tested. How?With The Ichi Spells... Test1)Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have That Same Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell Right After. Test2) Have A Ninja Do An Ichi Spell And Have A Diffenernt Ninja Cast The Resistance Down Of That Spell While The First Ninja Is Half Way Completed His Spell. The Damage Calculation Will Be Different Everytime, Favoring "Test2" Because The Damage Of The Seconed Ninja Will Always Be Greater.
Above is where you made some claims about the duration of Ninja's elemental enfeebs being different at different levels.

Below is your latest "test":
makes total sense >.>; if the ninjas are the same lv same race... no gear...
Test 1) have 1 ninja ichi spell and then cast the resistance down down of that spell after. sooo for all u people thats thinking impaired...

example: cast hyoton: ichi then cast katon ichi
Test 2) have 1 ninja ichi spell and then have another ninja cast the resistance down of the firsts ninjas spell it the half way point (to cacth the resistance down effect) soooo again for all u people thinking impaired..
example: ninja 1 cast hyoton: Ichi then when ninja 1's casting is half way completed have ninja 2 cast katon ichi.
doing this will favor ninja 2's damage being greater then ninja 1's if not all then most likely 70% of the time. and the link for the resistance down times are here "http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ninja" i dont know if my friend got it from here but i sure as hell see it here with my oen eyes... i know wiki is used and edited by people but they havent changed it here yet so im thinking what they say as truth over any of you


No where did you specified the use of a stop watch.

How the heck do you know these Ninjutsu techniques' effects have different durations at different levels, if you don't actually time a thing? (There are other things wrong, but it's not worth the eye strain reading your posts to nail them down.)

Highly recommend you stop calling others' thinking "impaired".