Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

[Kemdium]

A member of my LS mentioned a fix for summoner, when I heard it I thought it was a great idea, and I would also like to add to it.

Heres the idea:

Avatars HP is dependant on Summoner level & summoning magic.

Avatars MP is dependant on Summoners mana. The Avatar will only have 50% of the
Summoners maximum mana.

Avatar prep cost is used from the Avatars mana pool. Example: Since Avatars have 50% of the Summoners MP, if the Summoner has 800MP, the Avatar will have 400MP. 400MP @ 5mp/3sec means the Avatar can stay out roughly 80 seconds.

Blood Pacts still would use Summoners mana.

Avatars cost MP to summon depending on the level of the Summoner. A level 50 Summoner would need 100MP to summon Ifrit. Then Ifrit would be out until Ifrit runs out of mana. Once the Avatar is out, no more mana would need to be used from the Summoner except to use Blood Pacts.

Astral Flow would allow a Summoner to summon a Avatar free of MP. While Astral Flow is activated, Avatars also would not need MP to stay out.

Summoner should get a new Job Ability that transfers mana from the Summoner to the Avatar:

Ability: Rank 1 - Level 15 Summoner: Transfers up to 45MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 2 - Level 45 Summoner: Transfers up to 210MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 3 - Level 75 Summoner: Transfers up to 425MP to the Avatar.

Summoners would have to keep a eye out on their Avatars mana pool.


This would all allow Summoners to keep their Avatars out longer, and be able to do other stuff. What is everyones opinion on this?

[Silent Howler]

Okay...let's do some calculations here.

At level 50, a hume Smn/Whm has a base MP of 551 (not 800) according to this (http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/). At that level, Ifrit has an initial cost of 7 MP to summon and perpetual cost is 8 MP/tick.

(551 - 7) / 8 x 3 = 204 seconds.

With this suggestion, the avatar has an MP pool equal to half of the Summoner's (551 / 2 = 275.5). And you used 5 MP/tick instead of 8, but let's see how that goes.

276 / 5 x 3 = 165 seconds. (If you use 8 MP/tick it would be 103.5 seconds.)

So does this help Summoner's keep their avatars out longer? No, but since you're not using your own MP to keep the avatar out, you can re-summon and get more in the long run, right? But then again, you're blowing 100 MP to summon them in the first place. I suppose summoner's won't like having to use 100 MP every time they summon an avatar, so they will want to keep the avatar out longer to get more out of it. Of course, you're still dealing with the 60 second recast timer on Blood Pacts (and still using your own MP to use them).

I don't know...would this really help?

[Omniblast]

A member of my LS mentioned a fix for summoner, when I heard it I thought it was a great idea, and I would also like to add to it.

Heres the idea:

Avatars HP is dependant on Summoner level & summoning magic.

This is already in the game, already in the system. If you do a test pulling carbuncle out and or any other avatar and test it versus a cactaur, the damage and the % left of your avatar's HP is already dependent on your level more so than on summoning magic.


Avatars MP is dependant on Summoners mana. The Avatar will only have 50% of the
Summoners maximum mana.

Avatar prep cost is used from the Avatars mana pool. Example: Since Avatars have 50% of the Summoners MP, if the Summoner has 800MP, the Avatar will have 400MP. 400MP @ 5mp/3sec means the Avatar can stay out roughly 80 seconds.

I understand what your saying about this, though I doubt that SE would do something like that. Besides, you can keep the avatar out a log longer than 80 seconds with your own mp pool. Then what happens when you swap gear? I can keep Carbuncle out forever but he doesn't have his own Evoker's ring nor does he have any other -perpetuation gear. :p


Blood Pacts still would use Summoners mana.

Avatars cost MP to summon depending on the level of the Summoner. A level 50 Summoner would need 100MP to summon Ifrit. Then Ifrit would be out until Ifrit runs out of mana. Once the Avatar is out, no more mana would need to be used from the Summoner except to use Blood Pacts.

Astral Flow would allow a Summoner to summon a Avatar free of MP. While Astral Flow is activated, Avatars also would not need MP to stay out.

Summoner should get a new Job Ability that transfers mana from the Summoner to the Avatar:

Ability: Rank 1 - Level 15 Summoner: Transfers up to 45MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 2 - Level 45 Summoner: Transfers up to 210MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 3 - Level 75 Summoner: Transfers up to 425MP to the Avatar.

Summoners would have to keep a eye out on their Avatars mana pool.


This would all allow Summoners to keep their Avatars out longer, and be able to do other stuff. What is everyones opinion on this?

Sorry I don't really like this idea that much. I know your trying to think of a solution to the avatar perpetuation problem, but it doesn't look like SE will budge on this... or maybe not yet. It's too much of a change into the game that a lot of people will have too much opinion about it.

As of now, for me in a way, smn is broken. As well as in some ways, it's not.

The one thing that I would fix instead is to make blood pacts cost 0. Keep Perpetuation in, but make all bloodpacts free.

I'd still consume mp by keeping it out, as well as use MP for other purposes i.e. curing.

Another possible solution is to make the perpetuation reduce consumption according to the Avatar's TP. (note this would not work in conjunction to my previous method of reducing mp costs; this is a seperate idea itself.)

Yet another solution is...

Let smn rest while avatar's out. Hey bst can do it, why shouldn't we? ;p

[Silent Howler]

I'll say this, Summoner does not need an entirely new system, it just needs a few changes to the current one.

[Kemdium]

I was using my own summoner stats as a example, my Summoner at 52, Elvaan SMN/BLM has 815 MP. 462 base MP..

If you swapped gear, it wouldn't affect your Avatar, when you summon the Avatar, his stats adjust only to what you were wearing at the time of the summon. Hmm but I still don't know how the gear part would work, when I read this back to myself, it doesn't make sense.

Heres some more math:

815 - 7 / 8 x 3 = 303 seconds
Then the Summoner would have no mana left.

815 - 100 = 715 MP after the summon.
407 / 8 x 3 = 152 seconds

The Avatar can only stay out 1/2 the time, but you have 715 MP left to do Blood Pacts.

Or, you could summon the Avatar 8 times before resting.

152 seconds x 8 = 1216 seconds with 815 MP

[Malacite]

This is already in the game, already in the system. If you do a test pulling carbuncle out and or any other avatar and test it versus a cactaur, the damage and the % left of your avatar's HP is already dependent on your level more so than on summoning magic.


This is what's fundamentally wrong with SMN IMO. It works for the other pet jobs, since they don't have skill ratings (well, the Automaton does but it's also a construct so it makes sense for it to get better as it's master does)


Summoning Magic Skill should have a much larger impact than it does on Avatar performance and stats. Also, it'd be cool if they got stat boosts based on the Summoner's primary attribute levels the same way they got boosted by Yuna's stats in FFX (If Yuna had high STR, then all her summons got a nice big STR boost)


As it stands, Summoning Magic Skill is a complete joke. It provides little benefit other than speeding up the casting time of spirits and affecting what magic they cast. The fact that you need more skill than your current cap to see any kind of influence on blood pacts is proof SE hasn't got a clue what they're doing.

On the one hand, it's not the easiest job to balance. SMN has always been one of (if not the) strongest class in any FF that's featured it or it's spells (FF6/7/8). At the same time, you'd think that after 5 years they would have worked out the kinks. But then again, they only just fixed BST... (Well Mostly. All BST is missing now is uncapped jug pets IMO)

[Silent Howler]

Heres some more math:

815 - 7 / 8 x 3 = 303 seconds
Then the Summoner would have no mana left.

815 - 100 = 715 MP after the summon.
407 / 8 x 3 = 152 seconds

The Avatar can only stay out 1/2 the time, but you have 715 MP left to do Blood Pacts.

Or, you could summon the Avatar 8 times before resting.

152 seconds x 8 = 1216 seconds with 815 MP
But like I said, you still have to deal with the Blood Pact recast timer. With this system, you can use up to four Blood Pacts (two ward and two rage) before the avatar will un-summon. And if you plan on using more than four, you have to summon again afterwards, using another 100 MP.

Basically, unless the 100 MP counters the normal perpetual cost, it's not worth it.

[Rain_Blade]

Avatars HP is dependant on Summoner level & summoning magic.

Technically, the "Avatars HP is depentant on Summoner level" ia already in there. The more your Summoner levels, the avatar will get stronger and have more HP.


Avatars MP is dependant on Summoners mana. The Avatar will only have 50% of the Summoners maximum mana.

Avatar prep cost is used from the Avatars mana pool. Example: Since Avatars have 50% of the Summoners MP, if the Summoner has 800MP, the Avatar will have 400MP. 400MP @ 5mp/3sec means the Avatar can stay out roughly 80 seconds.

I might be understanding this wrong, but, from what I see, the part in bold is terrible. 80 seconds is extremely bad. Honestly, they should have the Avatar to at least stay out for 30 minutes (along with other MP fixes) so they can melee and gain TP. *looks back on this again* I noticed the calculations were wrong. Do 400 divided by 5 (which is 80) then multiply by 3 and that'll equal 240 seconds which is 4 minutes. 4 minutes is still bad anyway. We need our avatars out longer than that.



Avatars cost MP to summon depending on the level of the Summoner. A level 50 Summoner would need 100MP to summon Ifrit. Then Ifrit would be out until Ifrit runs out of mana. Once the Avatar is out, no more mana would need to be used from the Summoner except to use Blood Pacts.

@ the part in bold: Not to be rude, but this is terrible as well. As a Summoner, we try to save as much MP as we can while trying to do whatever in a party. When you're a healer, some parties still would like you to use Blood Pact Wards. So, if they want you to use BPs such as Hastega and Earhtne Ward, then summoning Garuda and Titan would be 200 MP total + their Blood Pacts which would be 400+ MP spent already.



Astral Flow would allow a Summoner to summon a Avatar free of MP. While Astral Flow is activated, Avatars also would not need MP to stay out.

Well, the second sentence is pretty much already done for Summoner (except for the part where Avatar's have their own MP to spend while staying out). For the first sentence, it's not too special. When you summon an avatar and use an Astral Flow ability, your MP is wiped. Plus, most people use Astral Flow after they summon an avatar anyway. Although, if you were 75 (meaning you need at least 150 mp to use an Astral Flow ability) and you have 150 MP left and you know summoning an avatar would take up some of that MP, then you' probably use Astral Flow before you summon.



Summoner should get a new Job Ability that transfers mana from the Summoner to the Avatar:

Ability: Rank 1 - Level 15 Summoner: Transfers up to 45MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 2 - Level 45 Summoner: Transfers up to 210MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 3 - Level 75 Summoner: Transfers up to 425MP to the Avatar.

Summoners would have to keep a eye out on their Avatars mana pool.


This would all allow Summoners to keep their Avatars out longer, and be able to do other stuff. What is everyones opinion on this?

Honestly, it would sort of be too much Hassle if you know what I mean. You'd have to focus on your Avatar's HP, Avatar's MP, and your own MP. Example:

Rain = 1200 MP
Avatar's MP: 600 which is half of my own MP like suggested.
Avatar's HP: Let's say it's...800? (plus, your avatar has good defense).
Perpetuation for Avatar: I'm gonna use the example you used. 5mp per tick. Each tick equals 3 seconds.

Let's begin. I see a Goblin and I start to fight it.

/em summons Garuda. 100 MP spent. 1100 MP left.

Goblin begins to hit Garuda for let's say...40 damage (excluding critical hits, special moves, and knowness of HP). The Goblin will hit every 6 seconds.

I assault and I melee with Garuda. I use Hastega (MP cost: 112) then Predator Claws (MP cost: 164). 276 MP spent. I have 724 MP left.

30 seconds have passed.

The Goblin has done 200 damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 600 HP.
Garuda used 50 MP from the perpetuation so she'll have 550 MP left.

30 seconds have passed again.

The Goblin has done 200 more damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 400 HP. Garuda used 50 more MP from the perpetuation so she'll have 500 MP left. I still have my 724 MP left (I could be using my sub spells also).

Now I will use Predator Claws again since 1 minute has passed. At my smn skill, Hastega lasts 3 minutes so right now it has a good 2 minutes left. Now I have 560 MP left.

30 seconds have passed yet again.

The Goblin has done 200 more damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 200 HP. Garuda used 50 more MP from the perpetuation so she'll have 450 MP left. Garuda is almost dead. Her MP is fine so I don't need to transfer MP, although if I did transfer MP, my MP would almost be gone leaving Garuda unable to do Blood Pacts. (IF I use Whispering Wind now, I'd have 441 MP left and Garuda might restore like 200 HP leaving her with 400 HP).

30 seconds have passed. 2 minutes total so far.

The Goblin has done 200 more damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 0 HP and she is defeated. My MP is at 560. I will resummon Garuda leaving myself with 460. I assume the suggestion also notes that Garuda's MP is reset. She's back to having 600 MP and having 800 HP. I'll use Predator Claws now. Now I have 296 MP left.

In another minute, Hastega would be down. I could use Predator Claws again leaving me with 132 MP. In 3 minutes, I've spent 1068 MP. At some point (very soon), I'll be able to do very little that can save my life. Although, at the time I had 132, I can summon Carbuncle which costs 100 MP. Leaving me with 32 MP. Hopefully my Carbuncle can still become free with the ideas above.

I do like that he/she is trying to fix Summoner though. The more suggestions sent to SE, the more they should (hopefully) be able to understand that we'd like to an update to fix the "handling MP" problem. Take care!

[Khidir]

Yet another solution is...

Let smn rest while avatar's out. Hey bst can do it, why shouldn't we? ;p

this would be a start of something beautiful^^ would help with a lot of things but would this be broken since smn get access to good clear mind abilities and refresh but the damage given isnt much but helps for tp which would improve the 60 second issue with bps.

on the fence with this but leaning twoards HELLS YESH:biggrin:

also having tp affecting other bps in other areas besides damage would be nice

ie with proper tp and summoning skill aerial armor gets more shadows, the hastega percentage is increased,etc.

[Malacite]

If I'm not mistaken, DRG can also rest while the wyvern is engaged (though I don't know why you'd want to...) and PUP also can not much like SMN.

[Kardor]

Hmm ya Healing while having a Summon out would be nice but i dont see it happen (iam not hoping for something that good)

Things that would be nice would be:
Drastic Increase in Avatar Melee
Auto Enspell
0 BP Timer during Astral Flow(like Chainspell)
More Stuff like Carbys Mitts (but, recalling what a pain it was to get just theese... multipling it by uhm 8? OMG)

Well its an endless discussion, in the end we have to do our jobs and remain "Power on Demand" until SE changes something ... if at all.

[LilithAngel]

If I'm not mistaken, DRG can also rest while the wyvern is engaged.

Actually, you very much are mistaken. The wyvern only engages and disengages when the Dragoon does the same. It's very much a Mini-Me in that regard. As soon as you put away your lance, the wyvern flies to your side, idle once again.

[Malacite]

Ah ok. Like I said though, I can't imagine why a DRG would want to do so anyway (except maybe to save his or her own hide while they run for it?)

[Omniblast]

Summoning Magic Skill should have a much larger impact than it does on Avatar performance and stats. Also, it'd be cool if they got stat boosts based on the Summoner's primary attribute levels the same way they got boosted by Yuna's stats in FFX (If Yuna had high STR, then all her summons got a nice big STR boost)


I don't agree. I don't want to load up on DEX and +ACC in order for Garuda to land her Predator Claws. I think that they should be independent, however they should work on a scale according to how high your SMN skill is.

Also, I think your getting confused between a Player's Wyvern, and a Dynamis type Wyvern, as they act independently of their masters, and can even kill stuff even if their masters are dead ;)

Oh and about the healing thing. They would still need to get up to use blood pacts, attack and what not, however it's just that while they are attacking something, we're able to focus on maintaining their perpetuation. Maybe not a true /heal because that requires you to "Clear your mind" like the skill "Clear Mind", you don't really think about things you sorta just relax.
Maybe reducing the perpetuation using another smn trait instead, a type of "focus thoughts" or "focus" or something like that.

[Mhurron]

I don't agree. I don't want to load up on DEX and +ACC in order for Garuda to land her Predator Claws. I think that they should be independent, however they should work on a scale according to how high your SMN skill is.
Why not, everyone else has skills and stats to deal with for anything they directly control.

I'm not saying that it should be like BLM and pile on INT after skill has been capped, but why not have stat boosts on the SMN have an effect over and above summoning skill?

[LilithAngel]

Ah ok. Like I said though, I can't imagine why a DRG would want to do so anyway (except maybe to save his or her own hide while they run for it?)

DRGs use Super Jump in a sort of "Escape Plan" tactic sometimes when things start to get out of hand (especially when solo). Let the wyvern take aggro and get the hell outta there. :thumbsup:

[Solymir]

How about for every 3 skill points above the Summoning skill cap you get -1 perpetuation? My first thought would be to make it every 5 points, but that gives no help to Smn's below level 50 when Austere/Penance Gear becomes available. At level 35 you could purchase a Summoner's earring and get -1 perpetuation when you are capped. I realize this seems like an unfair advantage to some, but it still requires the Smn to spend time capping their skill.

[Malacite]

Here's what I would have done, at least for end game SMN. Ditch the stupid merited blood pacts
(merit spells are a retarded idea in the 1st place) for 2 new abilities and 2 traits like the other jobs.


Evoker's Seal: Increases the power of your next Blood Pact. 15:00 each merit reduces recast by 2:50.

Nexus (Working in a good name @- @): Increases Max MP of party members in range. Each merit increases MP gained. Recast 10 minutes duration 3.


Astral Vessel: Reduces perpetuation cost by 1 per merit.

Evoker's Will: Reduces Blood Pact Ability recast by -2 per merit.


I thought about -2 for perp cost, and while that'd be nice -6 MP would make some of the avatars almost too cheap. (though it would make Diabolos bearable with his janky 15/tic) I also feel that -2 for blood pact is just right, since it would cap out at -6 (-3 is a joke, and it's only going 1 over other abilities with a 1min recast) and would improve SMN quite a bit without pushing it's power over the edge.

If I'm not mistaken, the current max from gear is around -14, so this would put it to -20. Almost 2 a minute, but not quite ^^b

[Saren]

I have to say I was actually quite suprised by how much I have been enjoying smn partly because you get a big thing that can moosh stuff and partly because I can pull off some fairly silly stuff solo.


Drastic Increase in Avatar Melee
Auto Enspell

Auto Enspell would be really really nice and actually given how stringly elemental in nature avatars are, it's kind of surprising they don't already have it really.

Perhaps having it kick in as a level 30-40 job trait or something or having the enspell damage scale with level/skill to make summoning skill more relevant?

Still very low level smn so I can't really talk about how bad the avatar melee accuracy/damage gets but I did notice trying to solo a little for fun last night after 5 levels in parties that Carbuncle is really having trouble holding hate from me now, even if I do nothing more than initiate BPs twice a minute.


0 BP Timer during Astral Flow(like Chainspell)

Bit dubious about this one.

Can you imagine being a level 20 smn with a lot of mulsum or ethers? My level 30 smn was just...gang raping in Promy with Astral flow so unless smn two hour gets less powerful as you level this looks like it has the potential to be seriously broken.

At level 75 you would need 150mp but with auto refresh, double ballad, refresh, a lot of 'instant mp' meds, possibly Martyr in there somewhere too you could get that back pretty quickly.

With a bit of planning you could probably get up to 6-8 astral flow BPs out in your 3 minutes depending on how often your avatar died with very little hate going on the smn.


More Stuff like Carbys Mitts (but, recalling what a pain it was to get just theese... multipling it by uhm 8? OMG).

I don't know about this one either. Carbuncle is your first Avatar the one you are 'closest' to, it makes sense for him to have a few special items.

Also smn already has a few things that are considered borderline 'essential' even are fairly low level that you need a level 65+ job and/or 65+help to get .

I am not sure adding more items for the job that will be considered essential but are difficult to get is going to make the job more playable which is the point of all these suggestions.

[Lunaryn]

Given that one of the biggest complaints about SMN is that they have so little to do pre-70 in terms of main-job abilities, to the point that they are sometimes referred to as MP/WHM, I think adjusting MP costs wouldn't mean as much as tweaking BP timers. I think that particularly at lower levels with few BPs available, the recast times are a serious stumbling block even with the Rage/Ward split (and only terrestrials even have Ward until the 20s).

The flip side to this is that decreasing the timer on BP Rage in particular could break things like Astral Flow or high-level BPs.

The thought thus occurs to me that maybe instead of having a static 1 minute recast on the BP abilities, the recast time should be determined by the BP used. The recast could still apply to all Rage or all Ward BPs respectively, but using a weak BP has less impact on things and thus could impose a shorter recast. Being able to choose between using weak BPs frequently and strong BPs infrequently could present an additional element of strategy as well as providing SMN more to do at earlier levels.

[Silent Howler]

Yet another solution is...

Let smn rest while avatar's out. Hey bst can do it, why shouldn't we? ;p
About this. As most of you know, Dancer has been introduced as a new job in WotG, and someone also mentioned that in previous games they could do "poison" like damage to MP. Now if you were to see this ability used on a Whm, I bet they would not be able to rest for MP. That's the difference with Bst. With Bst, you aren't losing any HP or MP. And even if you have auto-regen, you still can't rest when you're poisoned. Smn basically already has this effect by summoning an avatar, and that is why they cannot rest.

More Stuff like Carbys Mitts (but, recalling what a pain it was to get just theese... multipling it by uhm 8? OMG)
I still like the idea I posted in another thread here. Having a special ring that reduces perpetual cost for a specific avatar, obtained only through the Lv.20 solo fights. (Something to actually reward those that don't take the easy way and have to solo them.) Although the solo fights are only for the six elemetal avatars, rings could also be added to the rewards for Fenrir and Diabolos too. It would be a hassle to carry them around, but it's certainly better than nothing.

The thought thus occurs to me that maybe instead of having a static 1 minute recast on the BP abilities, the recast time should be determined by the BP used. The recast could still apply to all Rage or all Ward BPs respectively, but using a weak BP has less impact on things and thus could impose a shorter recast. Being able to choose between using weak BPs frequently and strong BPs infrequently could present an additional element of strategy as well as providing SMN more to do at earlier levels.
I like. :) In normal exp parties, I've noticed that each individual fight usually takes about 90 seconds. (Probably varies at different levels and depends on what you're fighting, but at my level this seems about normal.) So that allows me to use only two Blood Pacts each fight, and I can either spend the remaining time letting my avatar melee or un-summon and rest while everyone else fights... Neither are that exciting.

[Rain_Blade]

Given that one of the biggest complaints about SMN is that they have so little to do pre-70 in terms of main-job abilities, to the point that they are sometimes referred to as MP/WHM, I think adjusting MP costs wouldn't mean as much as tweaking BP timers. I think that particularly at lower levels with few BPs available, the recast times are a serious stumbling block even with the Rage/Ward split (and only terrestrials even have Ward until the 20s).

The flip side to this is that decreasing the timer on BP Rage in particular could break things like Astral Flow or high-level BPs.

The thought thus occurs to me that maybe instead of having a static 1 minute recast on the BP abilities, the recast time should be determined by the BP used. The recast could still apply to all Rage or all Ward BPs respectively, but using a weak BP has less impact on things and thus could impose a shorter recast. Being able to choose between using weak BPs frequently and strong BPs infrequently could present an additional element of strategy as well as providing SMN more to do at earlier levels.

For the first part in bold: I feel like if we had better Blood Pacts Ward that are worth using at any level, maybe Summoner can get some progress going. Lightning Armor and Frost Armor is just by far useless compared to the other Blood Pacts. Rolling Thunder is only good on monsters weak to thunder (which means you can use this when you're in Crawler's Nest on Crawlers and Altepa on Dhalmels). Crimson Howl's duration is obviously pitiful and there are others BPs better to use. Nightmare is good, but Shiva's Sleepga lasts longer. Slowga is good for handling multiple mobs, but I'd rather Sleepga them. Titan's Earthen Ward is nice, but at 75 the maximum it'll absorb is 200 which is 150 less than the cap for a normal Stoneskin. Maybe it's fair or maybe it's not, but I' say move Earthen Ward's dmg cap 100+ to 300. Dream Shroud isn't too great unless you have like 5 other black mages in your party or something. Noctoshield is nice for the tank (or any other hate takers), but people use Earthen Ward over this. Somnolence is nice, but there's rarely a time in a party where you need to gravity a monster unless you're party might be predicting a wipe. Glittering Ruby is pretty much those things you might use for laughs just to see what your party gets, but you'd still never use this since Ecliptic Growl is more satisfying. Shining Ruby is nice for the Paladin, but still rarely used. If a paladin had 600 defense, then shining ruby (10% boost) will make that 660.

For the second part in bold, I agree. Basically when you're in a party, you constantly have to think which BP is worth 1 minute more than the other BP. I was thinking like the more you level, the more the previous Blood Pact timers are reduced. Example (calculations might be wrong):

Level 5, the BP timer for Poison Nails is one minute.

Level 50, the BP timer for Poison Nails is 32 seconds.

Level 75, the BP timer for Poison Nails is 10 seconds.

At lvl 70, Predator Claws will be one minute.

At 75, they may be 50 seconds, 55 seconds, or stay 1 minute.

The thing I was thinking is that you can't use a spell unless the recast timer of the recent spell you use is done.

Example2: At 75, Poison Nails recast time is 10 seconds and Predator Claws is..55 seconds.

You use Poison Nails. 10 second delay for casting any other Rage spell. So after 10 seconds done, I use Predator Claws. 55 second delay for castung any other Rage spell. Basically, the recast timer for a spell is also the delay for using any other spell of a Rage or Ward category.

Anyway, that's my 2 seconds. If you don't like it...SCREW YOU! I'm just kidding. :cool:

[Silent Howler]

I think it would be nice if they made Blood Pacts more worth it in general. You get Crimson Howl at lvl 38, attack +15% for 30 seconds for 84 MP. Even though SMNs can use this at lvl 38, most won't because the +15% attack doesn't have as great of an impact as it does with a party of 75s. And we've all heard about SMNs using one Blood Pact over another, because it's simple better. There is a lot of imbalance with Blood Pacts and there is little that makes an avatar unique. There is that one Blood Pact they will use the avatar for, and that's it.

[Thoris]

we need better pacts in dmg and support.

i think at lv 50 all avatars should learn teir 2 melee dmg attack.

like shiva has double slap



i would also love for a lower perp cost.

i do have the feeling smn will be getting a major overhaul. i feel like they were testing the waters with pup, bst and drg update.

so u never know maybe we will get a timmer for the avatars like pup has. which is good and bad.

[Silent Howler]

i do have the feeling smn will be getting a major overhaul. i feel like they were testing the waters with pup, bst and drg update.
This is something I've noticed. Pup has actually started to look like how I imagine Smn should have been. (In terms of how the job is played. I don't want to see attachments for avatars. :P ) And there is one issue that S-E has brought up about Smn, and that's the fact that they want people to keep them out longer; rather than summon, use a Blood Pact, then unsummon. With Pup, you can't use an ability right after you activate your automation without the risk of overload. Out of all the pet jobs so far, Pup seems to be the most impressive. And it is also the newest. I have my doubts that Pup would look and feel the way it does today if it were released when Smn was.

[Thoris]

pup would be my fav job if it were not for the melee dd.

my pup is lv 67 and my smn is 55

[Malacite]

SMN's BP's are pretty IMO (ward especially).

Why do we get Tier 2 nukes at level 10 that do less damage than a BLM's Blizzard 1 ? The hell is that about SE?


In past games, any buffs provided by summons were usually pretty awesome for their cost. Titan's Earthen Ward is just Golem's classic ability but scaled way down.

Personally, I think SE should drastically increase blood pact performance (based on SMN skill level preferably, and NOT for that BS over-the-cap bandage fix) and increase the MP costs a bit too.

Am I the only one who misses the good old days of SMN being a more expensive and more powerful RDM? Note that I'm not advocating we screw over any other jobs here, just that SMN actually get some decent bang for their buck. One would think that the gods of the elements would have stronger magic than a mortal but that's apparently not the case.

[Pteryx]

Why do we get Tier 2 nukes at level 10 that do less damage than a BLM's Blizzard 1 ? The hell is that about SE?

At a guess, that's about them not realizing at the time how important MAB, MAcc, and skill are to dealing actual damage with spells, and just not noticing or caring enough to get around to actually fixing that problem. Of course, with all the MAB stuff puppets get, maybe they're realizing the problem -- and maybe someone there has actually finally gotten the bright idea of giving avatars MABI and making avatar nukes work off of our A+ Summoning skill for accuracy and it's in playtesting now. We can hope. -- Pteryx

[Yellow Mage]

Am I the only one who misses the good old days of SMN being a more expensive and more powerful RDM? Note that I'm not advocating we screw over any other jobs here, just that SMN actually get some decent bang for their buck. One would think that the gods of the elements would have stronger magic than a mortal but that's apparently not the case.

First your call for Mystic Knight, and now this! You'd think you'd have something against Red Mages: very suspicious, I tell you . . .

/joking :cool:

[Kardor]

Soo if i got rite now were back to

More Melee Dmg (and i mean alot more)
Auto Enspell
Lower Per

The things the Smn Commu is demanding for years .... SE pls read this ...
To be honest i highly doubt that there will be any drastic changes in Summoner
of the above mentioned we "might" see lower perp. but the rest ... meh.
SE will rather give us a new Summon (no complains i love summons - id be happy to have as many as in FFT ) to distract us for like half a year until everyone has it .

I love Summoner and its current style but iam used to it^^ i was very dissapointed when i started.
A mind change in the Gaming community would greatly help smn also, for you can do dmg in midgame , if u get a chance that is.

[Malacite]

Naw I <3 RDM. Soloing FF1 ftw!