The Future of Corsair Die.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

OK, Dancer is confirmed, I'm drawing an absolute blank on the kind of job trait we could gain from Dancer's Die.

Time Mage seems all but confirmed. If it isn't AoE Haste, then it would be -% weapon Delay. There's really no other logical things to draw from Time Mage that I could think of.

Should be interesting as we learn more.

[Feba]

+10 Gay?


Bards, Puppetmasters, and Corsairs get even frillier equipment.

[Murphie]

Dancer die may (or rather, will most likely) boost some sort of effect that Dancer provides for the party. You know, whatever that happens to be. Of course, I have no idea what that might be. I mean, I'm pretty confident that DCR? DNC? DAN? will be support of some kind, but beyond that I've got nothing.

[Kardor]

Well in FFT on PS1 Dancer was the Counterpart to Bard and her Dances Damaged Enemys Stats / HP / MP. I think we might expect something like this here too, or Combo Skills like Bard and Dancer had in Ragnarök Online^^.

As for the Dice hmm pretty hard could be stuff like Regen or hHP+

[Murphie]

So probably something like "Increases the amount of DOT/HMP/HHP/WHATEV".

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Dancer die may (or rather, will most likely) boost some sort of effect that Dancer provides for the party. You know, whatever that happens to be. Of course, I have no idea what that might be. I mean, I'm pretty confident that DCR? DNC? DAN? will be support of some kind, but beyond that I've got nothing.

COR buffs usually are lifted from job traits or at least some quality of the job itself.

Ninja, Choral, Rouge and Gallant Roll are really where SE took some liberties, as none of these were based on a job trait, but more of a dimension of the job.

Bard, for example, cannot be interrupted, the only way to stop a Bard song is by silence or stun. You can wail on a BRD and he'll keep singing. Since Resist Silence would have been an incredibly lame trait to share, so they worked that into an AoE Aquaveil Spell.

THF has Evasion Bonus as a Trait, but Ninjas strive to be evasive as well. Rouge Roll ended up playing off THFs high DEX and ability to do garunteed critical hits often with Sneak Attack, so that was skewed to a Critical Hit Rate bonus buff, essentially free merits through a buff. NIN was given the Evasion Bonus Roll.

So that's a Ninja buff that ninja-ed THF skills.

PLD's role is to absorb the blows so Gallant's Roll was made to convert a portion of the damage taken and return it onto the enemy. Total artistic liberties there, but the recent update actually has made this buff situationally useful. I've actually taken what would have been a 400 damage hit and reflected 150 points of damage and only took 250.

Think I'm gonna go fiddle with FFT and FFX-2 for some ideas.

BTW, Murphie, +hMP buff already in the game, Healer's Roll (WHM).

[Murphie]

I know about Healer's roll. What I meant more was a "Increases the Strength/Duration of Dancer's Buff or Effect", but on after further thought (and being reminded how COR works, because it's been a while) that seems incredibly unlikely. I guess it will depend on what the Dancer's traits are.

Honestly, they probably won't even have new job dice for some time to come anyway. But I hope they do.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, SE did say all jobs would be seeing new spells, obviously some of that would be released over time and some of it wouldn't. All COR's original rolls were on NPCs from day one and never dropped from mobs or BCNMs, so I wouldn't be surprised if some NPC had them and they can be "captured" like just like the Al'Zhabi NPCs. One in each nation, just for the sake of being consistant.

And there does seem to be some kind of Besieged element in this expansion, after all, Orcs were on the march to Sand'oria in the last trailer.

Its pretty much a given a job like BLU wouldn't get all their spells in one month, as new mobs would be released during the expansion.

[Icemage]

I'd be shocked if the Time Mage roll was anything but Haste.

We don't know enough about Dancer to even guess at what a Phantom Roll for that job will do. If it's templated off of the FFTA version of the Dancer job class, it bears great resemblance to a Bard, but is a more offensive minded enfeebler.

Personally, I think I'll be more amused (horrified?!) by the concept of a Galka Dancer than any potential ability that Phantom Roll may get. :P


Icemage

[ForceVoid]

If they do end up making the Dancer the Geomancer/Dancer hybrid we have seen with Mog, phantom roll might add the en-spell of the current environment/weather. Now that would be neat.

[Kirsteena]

Personally, I think I'll be more amused (horrified?!) by the concept of a Galka Dancer than any potential ability that Phantom Roll may get. :P

A-bloody-men.

Me wants a custom title >.<

[IfritnoItazura]

Me wants a custom title >.<
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/profile.php?do=editprofile

[Kirsteena]

I put it down to being ill today, and not taking on board anything anyone says!

[Balfree]

Dancer die may (or rather, will most likely) boost some sort of effect that Dancer provides for the party. You know, whatever that happens to be. Of course, I have no idea what that might be. I mean, I'm pretty confident that DCR? DNC? DAN? will be support of some kind, but beyond that I've got nothing.

I see.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Actually, considering how much SE buffed Samurai Roll, it would almost be unnecessary to have a Haste. I can get 100+ TP within five attack rounds on Joyeuse with a high SAM Roll. I was invited to a Excavation Duty spam PT and it was just ridiculous how fast you could TP with SAM + WAR Rolls now.

I realize Haste is more for the DoT/Recast factor, but a haste might put COR way over the top when you consider how good SAM Roll is now. A SAM with this Roll is almost like having a perma-meditate, especially if they have Soboro.

[Malacite]

Only thing I can think of is something to enhance the effect of enfeebling skills (not just enfeebling magic)

[Spider-Dan]

Actually, considering how much SE buffed Samurai Roll, it would almost be unnecessary to have a Haste. I can get 100+ TP within five attack rounds on Joyeuse with a high SAM Roll. I was invited to a Excavation Duty spam PT and it was just ridiculous how fast you could TP with SAM + WAR Rolls now.
However, Haste increases your DoT and your TP, while Store TP is just "empty" TP.

I realize Haste is more for the DoT/Recast factor, but a haste might put COR way over the top when you consider how good SAM Roll is now.
Then wouldn't Fighter's Roll put COR over the top already?

Anyway, I'd be happy if Dancer's Roll was just Regen.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

However, Haste increases your DoT and your TP, while Store TP is just "empty" TP.

True, no arguing that one, but that is the other bonus to Haste, DoT notwithstanding.

Then wouldn't Fighter's Roll put COR over the top already?

With SAM Roll, yeah, its pretty crazy now.

Anyway, I'd be happy if Dancer's Roll was just Regen.

That wouldn't be bad, actually, but doesn't seem in-line with their description on the WotG site. Says their dances are powerful enough to rival a sorcerer's cants/chants.

Then again, like I said, SE has taken liberty with jobs and the other buffs themed after those jobs. Dancer could be no different.

[Gobo]

What about "-magic spell recast" for Time roll? Not as overpowering as giving COR a Haste roll, but still something that is (situationally) very useful.

[Kuro]

I hate you Gobo, how dare you say that! Sit in the corner and PRAY that doesn't happen.

If it does I strongly advise you escape to a safe 40,000 mile radius of Omgwtfbbqkitten.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I hate you Gobo, how dare you say that! Sit in the corner and PRAY that doesn't happen.

If it does I strongly advise you escape to a safe 40,000 mile radius of Omgwtfbbqkitten.

Why would I become a danger over this? :P

If we got that roll, I'd probably just shake my head and move on. Though it does make OK sense for Time Mage, I kinda think -% Casting would be a RDM kind of thing. But they got Magic Accuracy instead.

[wrongfeifong]

I think dancer is a speed DD class. Hence, they might have triple attack like theif. Maybe triple attack will be our roll.

I am not surpise we will see a "def roll soon enough" with chocobo knights or something (i am sure it will be the 3rd class.... SE did promise a new tank job)

[Malacite]

(i am sure it will be the 3rd class.... SE did promise a new tank job)


When was this? In their last interview, Sage Sundi told 1UP that SE wasn't concerned with what roles the new jobs play, only that they are balanced with respect to the others.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

lolChocboKnight

[Gobo]

Iono, I really think tanks would really like -recast time for Utsu, Cures and Flash (and Stun/Ab-spells/random crap from /DRK). Then again thats just me.

[Kuro]

-recast is pretty much 100% useless as far as I can see, and then there is the fun lolCOR factor regular retarded DD will put onto COR for not having Haste AoE.

Prety much only -recast use I can think of would be for COR/NIN solo fun or some other vague use, but in meriting even MBing, nah can't see it being used.

[Kixxi]

As there is Paean, Ballad and Evoker's Roll, the one thing that is missing is a Regain Roll or Song, so I assumed that this might be obtainable from a Die, possibly the Dancer.

Until I remembered Samurai Roll which sorta blew that out the water. Nice idea for a topic - until we know more about the job, I don't think we can guess yet.

[Wiseman40]

Dancer first appeared in FFV

# ABILITIES/MAGIC: !Flirt - Distract enemy and reset their turn time. High chance of failure.
# !Dance - Do a continuous dance at random (default)
# Equip Ribbon - Equip Ribbon, Tiara, Rainbow Armor, and/or Red Shoes despite job class
Dances:
# Sword Dance - Attack enemy for four times normal damage
# Jitterbug - Drain HP from enemy and give to self
# Mystery Waltz - Drain MP from enemy and give to self
# Tempting Tango - Cast Confuse on enemy

FFT

ABILITIES/MAGIC:
# Dance: Witch Hunt - Cause MP damage
# Wiznaibus - Cause HP damage
# Slow Dance - Lower target speed
# Polka Polka - Lower target's attack power
# Disillusion - Lower target's magic power
# Nameless Dance - Cause various status ailments
# Last Dance - Turns target's CT count to 0
Reaction Abilities: A Save (raise physical attack power), Brave Up
Support Abilities: None
Move Abilities: Jump +3, Fly (leap over enemies and obstacles)

FFX-2

ABILITIES/MAGIC:
# Dance: Darkness Dance - Cast Blind on enemy for length of dance
# Samba of Silence - Cast Silence on enemy for length of dance
# MP Mambo - MP cost for party is 0 for length of dance
# Magical Masque - Party is invulnerable to magic attacks for length of dance
# Sleepy Shuffle - Puts all enemies to sleep for length of dance
# Carnival Cancan - Party's max HP is doubled for length of dance
# Slow Dance - Cast Slow on all enemies for length of dance
# Brakedance - Cast Stop on all enemies for length of dance
# Jitterbug - Cast Haste on party for length of dance
# Dirty Dancing - All allies' attacks are critical hits for length of dance
Sing:
# Battle Cry - Raise party's strength for length of song
# Cantus Firmus - Raise party's defense for length of song
# Esoteric Melody - Raise party's magic power for length of song
# Disenchant - Raise party's magic defense for length of song
# Perfect Pitch - Raise party's accuracy for length of song
# Matador's Song - Raise party's evasion for length of song

As you can see Square has done some changing and switching around of Dancer over the years, and we can't be sure exactly how it will manifest in FFXI.

It's certain though that Dancer Primarily hinders enemies rather than supports allies (although in X-2 there was some support).

One thing that I could imagine happening is a buff that places a proc on allies to cause damage/debuff to enemies (like enthunder).

There could be a roll that caused random negative effects on enemies whenever a party member would hit them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You know, I actually like the idea of MP mambo in FFXI, rather than it being a refresh, it could negate MP cost while the dance was taking place.

[Omni]

wrongfei: when did SE promise a new tank class? I cant remember any time SE has promised anything in terms of jobs types. If you can provide a link to where you read this, that would be nice.

[Karinya]

I don't think it will do anything more than reduce MP costs, if it is allowed at all. Imagine MP Mambo + Flare x5...

Completely negating MP cost in a game where it ties up 1/3 of your party and (IIRC) there were enough other MP-restoring abilities and items to make it not that much of a problem anyway is one thing... completely negating MP cost in FFXI is something else entirely.

Also, the WotG site description of dancers refers to their dances affecting "themselves and their enemies", which makes it possible that they may have no buffs at all.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't think it will do anything more than reduce MP costs, if it is allowed at all. Imagine MP Mambo + Flare x5...

If there's going to be a Conserve MP buff, then I think I know which job that buff would belong to.

Completely negating MP cost in a game where it ties up 1/3 of your party and (IIRC) there were enough other MP-restoring abilities and items to make it not that much of a problem anyway is one thing... completely negating MP cost in FFXI is something else entirely.

Also, the WotG site description of dancers refers to their dances affecting "themselves and their enemies", which makes it possible that they may have no buffs at all.

Dancer has always at least had a handful of PT buffs and the catch was the effects of what they do are restricted to the duration of the dance. When a dance begins, it doesn't stop for a while.

The WotG description is cryptic, possibly implying it could also have some kind of tanking function. Dancers did need enemy attention to charm/confuse them, otherwise tantalizing the enemy was pointless.

I think we'll see more offensive debuffing and a handful of buffs, I don't think buffing will be entirely out of their duties.

[framerate]

I could see time mage roll being a haste, but I agree that may make us overpowered.

Also someone said "regain" roll. I think they meant "regen" and I agree, I miss not being able to regen our party, but I'm not sure any of the supposed jobs could do it. I do believe time mage would have a "regain" spell though (TP over time).

[Nuriko]

I could see a PT loving that during a 5-minute break, or in preparation to some difficult fight ... imagine the Promy boss fights if you could start at 300% TP.

[Dymlos]

Even though it most likely will be broken as all hell, if we got TIM, the TIM roll could be Regain, but that would be broken as all hell. Fun though!

[Denade]

Perhaps instead of neglecting MP use, a new dice roll can simply affect a job trait like conserve MP? Just increase the % of how often you save MP on spellcasting. Theoretically, a BLM ancient spell cost could be reduced which could be usefull in many situations.

[Spider-Dan]

If there's going to be a Conserve MP buff, then I think I know which job that buff would belong to.
If there was a +Evasion roll, I think I'd know what job that buff would belong to, also.

And I'd be wrong.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The original set of rolls had to have a degree of liberty taken with them, you know, since Ninja and Bard didn't really have any job traits to draw from that wouldn't either be broken or totally useless. Job traits don't seem to be an area where ToA jobs themselves were lacking.

They also had the hope that players would consider inviting certain jobs for the bonuses they provided instead of, you know, calling them "meritpo stepchildren" like some people I know. But we all know how that turned out.

At any rate, were Dancer to have any kind of MP Mambo dance, I thinka conserve MP buff be a good PR for them. Or one based on Witch Hunt, allowing damage to done to enemy MP.

[Kuro]

oh god, regain + Samurai's roll would just be... unholy!

Im currently looking at unlocking my new coffinmaker... and THREE WSNM's on my COR! thats like 1400 WSP (Weapon skill points)

Regain and Samurais roll with my BRD friend for haste and a SAM... thats just criminal TP gain!

[Wiseman40]

oh god, regain + Samurai's roll would just be... unholy!

Im currently looking at unlocking my new coffinmaker... and THREE WSNM's on my COR! thats like 1400 WSP (Weapon skill points)

Regain and Samurais roll with my BRD friend for haste and a SAM... thats just criminal TP gain!

Criminal indeed. Although I would love to see it - I think it would be broken.

In the current system, without any real +tp gear I see people using a WS every 5 hits.

With regain, and TP gear + a samurai... what would it be? 2 hits?

one...two...WS! one...two...WS!

Then the SAM would just be

onw...WS! one...two...UberWS!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

AS it stands right now, I can get 100% TP in five attack rounds with a good samurai roll + Joyeuse. Dunno how needed Regain actually is considering how good Samurai Roll is.

[Karinya]

Dancer has always at least had a handful of PT buffs and the catch was the effects of what they do are restricted to the duration of the dance. When a dance begins, it doesn't stop for a while.
Not true. FFV dances had no duration (they were all instant effects) and none of them were buffs. FFT dances were all debuffs and the effects kicked in periodically while dancing - but once an effect happened, it would persist even if you stopped dancing. The mechanics you're thinking of really only apply to FFX2 Songstress's dances.

I'd say it's too early to tell for sure whether SE will take a FFV-ish or a FFT-ish or a FFX2-ish approach to dancing - or some combination of them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Not true. FFV dances had no duration (they were all instant effects) and none of them were buffs. FFT dances were all debuffs and the effects kicked in periodically while dancing - but once an effect happened, it would persist even if you stopped dancing. The mechanics you're thinking of really only apply to FFX2 Songstress's dances.

I'd say it's too early to tell for sure whether SE will take a FFV-ish or a FFT-ish or a FFX2-ish approach to dancing - or some combination of them.

Actually, I was thinking about Mog, too. Once you got Mog started on a dance, you no longer had control of him. Mog's style was tied to Geomancy, though, and the results of each round of the dance were randomized.

I don't seriously think SE would make Dancer as a "bezerked" support class in an MMO context, though. But I do think, from the descriptions I've read that this class would be one that needs to entrance or gain the attention of an enemy to do thier work.

[Spider-Dan]

The original set of rolls had to have a degree of liberty taken with them, you know, since Ninja and Bard didn't really have any job traits to draw from that wouldn't either be broken or totally useless.
Ninja could have had a delay reduction roll, and it would have been perfectly consistent and useful (more useful than Ninja Roll is now).

In any case, it's one thing to create a new effect for a roll. But Ninja Roll, as is, gives a bonus that clearly belongs to a different job. So if they can put +evasion on Ninja Roll, then +Conserve MP on a Dancer roll is nothing.

They also had the hope that players would consider inviting certain jobs for the bonuses they provided instead of, you know, calling them "meritpo stepchildren" like some people I know.
I guess that's why Drachen Roll was/is so useful, right?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I guess that's why Drachen Roll was/is so useful, right?

Actually, it is useful now. While not common to have DRG in a manaburn PT, PUPs do have access to Tier IV Black Magic via automations now and are a common sight in manaburns. Drachen Roll wasn't terribly useful before because Wyvern Breath attacks are weak and Avatar Nukes are few and far between, but now we have a pet job that can be used to nuke far more consistently.

As such, Drachen Roll has a function and purpose now, DRG present or not.

[Spider-Dan]

Actually, it is useful now. While not common to have DRG in a manaburn PT,
Full stop.

If Drachen Roll only has a use in parties to which a DRG is never invited, how could that possibly help DRG invites, as you suggested?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Full stop.

If Drachen Roll only has a use in parties to which a DRG is never invited, how could that possibly help DRG invites, as you suggested?

Where did I say "DRG is a must-invite for manaburns" ever before August 2007?

I didn't.

What I think you're implying is a very old statement I made about the Phantom Roll being designed to encourage certain jobs to be invited to PTs, which it rather obviously was. Look at the rolls given to the pre-ToA "favorites" and then look at the rolls given to the rest.

THF, WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, WHM and SMN got all the really good ones.

PLD, NIN, RDM didn't. These jobs weren't exactly competing for invites.

At the same time, COR needed to be given some even ground with BRD from the outset, so COR was given comparable buffs from the earliest levels. What SE didn't anticipate was for BRDs to start forsaking their role as a party buffer to become a crowd-controller and puller instead. So strong was this trend that who has the strongest buffs in the game now?

Not Bard.

But you know what? Drachen Roll having a use now has little to do with any of that. Its more the result of another update to another job, one that has a pet that, unlike SMN, can be used to focus on nuking. Hell, PUPs can even main heal now.

Now, I could invite a DRG to a PUP manaburn just like BSTs are invited to Avatarburns with COR. However, DRGs are by far more functional healers than BSTs and the most efficient MP user in the game, so its not ridiculous to invite a DRG/Mage as a healer under this context.

Now we can keep discussing things we said before certain updates or we can discuss the potentials of the here and now, in addition to what we could be getting. I see no point in digging up fossils, but if you want to, I'll keenly keep pointing your childish "meritpo stepchildren" comment.

[Spider-Dan]

Where did I say "DRG is a must-invite for manaburns" ever before August 2007?

I didn't.

What I think you're implying is a very old statement I made about the Phantom Roll being designed to encourage certain jobs to be invited to PTs, which it rather obviously was.
If by "very old," you mean "earlier this week," then sure.

They also had the hope that players would consider inviting certain jobs for the bonuses they provided instead of, you know, calling them "meritpo stepchildren" like some people I know. But we all know how that turned out.
OK, then.

Look at the rolls given to the pre-ToA "favorites" and then look at the rolls given to the rest.
THF, WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, WHM and SMN got all the really good ones.
PLD, NIN, RDM didn't. These jobs weren't exactly competing for invites.
In what sort of crazy, bizarro world do you live where WARs and MNKs need more of an invite boost than PLD?

But you know what? Drachen Roll having a use now has little to do with any of that. Its more the result of another update to another job, one that has a pet that, unlike SMN, can be used to focus on nuking. Hell, PUPs can even main heal now.
So just to recap: in order for Drachen Roll to be useful, we need to invite a PUP to a manaburn and drop one of the following rolls:

- Evoker's
- Wizard's
- Corsair's

...for a roll with no Job Bonus. OK, you win.

I see no point in digging up fossils, but if you want to, I'll keenly keep pointing your childish "meritpo stepchildren" comment.
Feel free. Seems to me that Squenix has done nothing but prove me right again and again (see: Light Shot sleep staging, improving COR's base roll potency, drastically improving the stepchildren). So I don't understand exactly how your comment is supposed to embarrass me. Squenix obviously agrees that they were stepchildren, or they wouldn't have taken the drastic measures that they did.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If by "very old," you mean "earlier this week," then sure.

:rolleyes:


In what sort of crazy, bizarro world do you live where WARs and MNKs need more of an invite boost than PLD?


Y kan't Dan reed?

What I think you're implying is a very old statement I made about the Phantom Roll being designed to encourage certain jobs to be invited to PTs, which it rather obviously was. Look at the rolls given to the pre-ToA "favorites" and then look at the rolls given to the rest.

THF, WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, WHM and SMN got all the really good ones.

PLD, NIN, RDM didn't. These jobs weren't exactly competing for invites.

MNK was not a golden-boy job pre-ToA. WAR was slightly on the rise after the RNG nerf, but Rampage PTs were not all the rage until when? Everyone and their grandma started leveling WAR right around that time, or did you just not notice this?

DRK was still shit ot of luck, THF still is, SMN and WHM fell further behind. If SE's intention was to use these buffs to counteract existing trends, they apparently didn't succeed, but you'd have to do a lot of work to prove that wasn't the intention behind those buffs now. Especially since you and I both worked with the original notion and had a hell of a time for it.

So SE buffed COR, so people would take notice of it and pretty much gave us the power BRDs were clearly neglecting.

So just to recap: in order for Drachen Roll to be useful, we need to invite a PUP to a manaburn and drop one of the following rolls:

- Evoker's
- Wizard's
- Corsair's

...for a roll with no Job Bonus. OK, you win.

I consider the diversification of party setups a win. I'm sorry it behooves you to drop the novelty buff for a PT to try something new. I do standard, I do Meleeburn, I do manaburn, I do avatar PTs, I'll take any kind of PT that's different. That's kinda why I like this job better than my BRD.

You probably would consider all of that a waste of time, but then, what exactly is an MMORPG?

BTW, in your "discrediting" you failed to consider one of those rolls already wasn't giving you a bonus, regardless of the placebo effect Sanction Refresh and /BRD may be giving you. But then, placebo is all the rage with CORs lately.


Feel free. Seems to me that Squenix has done nothing but prove me right again and again (see: Light Shot sleep staging, improving COR's base roll potency, drastically improving the stepchildren). So I don't understand exactly how your comment is supposed to embarrass me. Squenix obviously agrees that they were stepchildren, or they wouldn't have taken the drastic measures that they did.

Er, I've been right there with you on the Sleep Staging thing. I was sleep staging as BRD before COR existed. That's nothing special, any COR with a lick of sense saw what Peacemaker and Light Shot meant when the adjustment to Light Shot came. I didn't exactly like that notion, but I never denied it, either.

My issue with your "Stepchildren" comment is that its insulting to other players in other jobs. If you want to sound like a princess, that's a great way to do it. It people like you who honestly make this game harder than it has to be and what forces SE to make drastic updates like the 2H one.

Oh and look at where SE "agreeing" with you got your RNG and THF. Karma's a bitch, but hey, at least you still have COR.

[Spider-Dan]

MNK was not a golden-boy job pre-ToA. WAR was slightly on the rise after the RNG nerf, but Rampage PTs were not all the rage until when? Everyone and their grandma started leveling WAR right around that time, or did you just not notice this?
What game have you been playing for the last two years? Apparently not FFXI.

RNG nerf was in July of 2006. That was a full EIGHT months before ToAU came out. I would love to hear what jobs were desired (during that time frame) in the version of the game that you had.

DRK was still shit ot of luck, THF still is, SMN and WHM fell further behind. If SE's intention was to use these buffs to counteract existing trends, they apparently didn't succeed, but you'd have to do a lot of work to prove that wasn't the intention behind those buffs now.
The fact that the least desired job (DRG) also had one of the least practical buffs speaks volumes to that

I consider the diversification of party setups a win. I'm sorry it behooves you to drop the novelty buff for a PT to try something new.
I'm still trying to figure out which one of +MAB, +Refresh, and +EXP you are labeling as a "novelty." It would be rather absurd to call Wizard's a novelty as you're rolling Drachen and Corsair's affects your exp/hr more than any other roll in manaburn. So I guess you're arguing that refresh is a novelty buff? Who knows.

BTW, in your "discrediting" you failed to consider one of those rolls already wasn't giving you a bonus, regardless of the placebo effect Sanction Refresh and /BRD may be giving you.
Um, are you seriously trying to compare Drachen to Evoker's? Seeing as how Evoker's is better than Ballad II even without a job bonus, missing the JB doesn't seem particularly relevant.

Er, I've been right there with you on the Sleep Staging thing. I was sleep staging as BRD before COR existed.
Congratulations. I was merit pulling on COR before Light Shot could sleep, so I was actually speaking from the standpoint of someone that's actually using the job in question, not a completely different job. But thanks.

My issue with your "Stepchildren" comment is that its insulting to other players in other jobs. If you want to sound like a princess, that's a great way to do it.
What, exactly, do you think the term "stepchildren" conveys? If I had meant the other "gimp" jobs, then that's what I would have said. "Stepchildren" implies that they are not desired, which you have already stated in this thread. So I guess you sound like a princess, too?

Oh and look at where SE "agreeing" with you got your RNG and THF. Karma's a bitch, but hey, at least you still have COR.
What an outstandingly irrelevant observation. While there are many responses I could offer, the simplest one is that since I already have a 75COR, I'm not particularly concerned about the meripo performance of either RNG or THF. So I guess you'll have to color me indifferent on that subject.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Please try reading posts before you hit that "Quote" button. Its seriously not that hard.Now, allow me to spell it all out for you. Try to actually read this before you hit reply with a loaded rebuttal.

Corsair's Roll is the novelty to which I refer. And that's exactly what it is considering two other similar buffs already exist. If you want to roll it to satisfy your bottom line, more power to you, but I'll point to your old adage of "everything is situational" as a reminder that it should not always be your first pick.

I never said Drachen Roll was better than Evoker's. How you jump to that conclusion, i'll never know. What I said was, DRG Roll does have a viable situation now as a direct result of the last PUP update. And what I implied was that one should be willing to ditch novelty in favor of complimenting jobs and their abilities.

Let's seriously look at the possible setup I'm discussing here.

DRG/Mage, COR, BLM, BLM, PUP, PUP.

Possible Rolls are:

Wizard's
Drachen
Evoker's

These would be the most beneficial rolls to the whole of the PT. It might take some doing to separate the BLMs to avoid Drachen, but could this PT work and do effective EXP per hour given all the skills they are capable of in manaburn?

Absolutely. I think its a refreshing setup. Most manaburn PTs aren't really that stressful and the killspeed here would be adequate. The problem, well, the problem for you, is that you can't justify Corsair's Roll here.

Boo hoo.:o

And sorry, you'e not getting away with the semantic debate on bonuses. You were the one crying about how the original versions of the buffs and their bonuses "tethered us to the meritpo stepchildren." (THF, SAM, DRK, RNG are the "stepchildren" for those just joining us, have fun with that).

Your complaint was that was shouldn't have to be reliant on bonuses and now we really aren't tied to them so strictly. My complaint was that naked BRDs shouldn't be doing better buffs.

We both got what we wanted.

Though the bonuses did get a buff along with the rolls themselves, I still get a big boost on Chaos Roll without a DRK, so why are you still clinging to the bonuses if you hated them so much? You got what you wanted.

Either Bonuses aren't a big deal, or they are. Pick one. As of the update, I'd say they aren't as big a deal as the once were, they're just nice to have when we have the compatible jobs, but I don't need a DRK or RNG to justify their respective rolls now. I just need to apply them as needed.

If you want to cling to Corsair's Roll like a greedy little child and ignore the opportunity for new styles of PTs and new opportunities for data (which you seem to enjoy), that's fine. I fully accept that there are people who are interested in little else in satisfying their bottom line on merits. It still play to explore and there's a bit left to explore.

Its just rather disappointing to see someone who usually advocates potentials is now ignoring them now that his wants were satisfied. So much of the situational, eh?

Anyway, I'm done with this little discussion.

[Spider-Dan]

Corsair's Roll is the novelty to which I refer. And that's exactly what it is considering two other similar buffs already exist. If you want to roll it to satisfy your bottom line, more power to you, but I'll point to your old adage of "everything is situational" as a reminder that it should not always be your first pick.
I fail to understand why you still consider Corsair's a "novelty" roll, unless you have some other goal in meripo that's unrelated to gaining exp. But in any case, I clearly listed three rolls: Corsair's, Wizard's, Evoker's.

Let's seriously look at the possible setup I'm discussing here.
DRG/Mage, COR, BLM, BLM, PUP, PUP.
Possible Rolls are:
Wizard's
Drachen
Evoker's
These would be the most beneficial rolls to the whole of the PT.
And what is the DRG doing here, besides trying to "prove" that everything has a purpose? A RDM, SMN, or BLU would be superior in practically EVERY way.

And sorry, you'e not getting away with the semantic debate on bonuses. You were the one crying about how the original versions of the buffs and their bonuses "tethered us to the meritpo stepchildren."
Since you apparently missed this the first time: the reason we were tethered to the stepchildren was because without the job bonus, most of our buffs were vastly inferior to that of a BRD's equivalent. Evoker's has never fallen into this category, which is why you've never heard me complain that we're tethered to SMN.

Its just rather disappointing to see someone who usually advocates potentials is now ignoring them now that his wants were satisfied. So much of the situational, eh?
The difference between you and I is that I look for potential to create new, more effective strategies, while you consider net effectiveness an unimportant novelty, to be discarded in favor of doing new things for the sake of doing them (see: your long-standing hatred towards Corsair's, which does absolutely nothing but affect exp/hr efficiency).