Vorpal Blade!

[Callisto]

Ok...time for me to live up to WM3K's sig I suppose, I've been wanting to figure this out for awhile now. I'd like to find the best WS setup to use as RDM in order to max my Vorpal Blade damage, so I'm going to run the numbers here and see if I can figure it out. First I'll do it using an Aht Urghan Attercop as a target, then using a Greater Colibri. I'm kind of just using this thread as a notepad to show my work, so that you guys can hopefully point out if I go wrong somewhere, this is the first time I've really done any Attack/WS damage math on my own.

Soooo first off, let's figure out what I'm working with:

Aht Urghan Attercop - LVL 64 - WAR/WAR(Actually I think it may be THF/THF because these things have a ridiculous crit rate against me for easy preys, but THF has same VIT so w/e.)

Spiders have E ranked VIT, and WAR has D ranked according to Ghobli's info...so I show it having 59 VIT:

VIT = (3 + (63 * .3)) + (3 + (63 *.35)) + (3 + (31 * .35))
VIT = 21 + 25 + 13
VIT = 59

I also come up with 236 Def if it is a WAR:

Def = 126 + (14 * 4.5) + 8 + (59/2) + 10
Def = 126 + 63 + 8 + 29 + 10
Def = 236

Now for my stats...My current Melee/WS setup is:

Enhancing Sword
Tariqah+1
Lightning Bow+1
Optical Hat
Chivalrous Chain
Antivenom Earring
Hollow Earring
Assault Jerkin
Tarasque Mitts
Ruby Ring x2
Amemet Mantle
Life Belt
Duelist's Tights
Crimson Greaves

This brings me to 72+12 STR and 379 Atk as RDM/DRK with Enspells up.

Soooo my fSTR would come out to 12:

fSTR = (dSTR + 4)/2
fSTR = 29/2
fSTR = 14.5, but Enhancing Sword is a rank 4 weapon, so my fSTR would cap at 12

My cRatio would be:

cRatio = 379/236
cRatio = 1.6059

This would make my PDIFs:

PDIFMax = 1.6059 * 1.2 = 1.927
PDIFMaxCrit = 1.927 + 1 = 2.927
PDIFMin = 1.927 - .8 = 1.127
PDIFMinCrit = 1.127 + 1 = 2.127

Here's where I come to a slight bump that I could use your guys' help on...if I want to find what my average damage would be, can I just take my max and min PDIFs added together divided by 2, and use that as an average PDIF going forward?

Anyways I need to do some actually work at my job so I'll come back to this in a bit, if anyone can answer this question for me that'd be sweet.

[Armando]

Attercops are definetely WAR/WAR, otherwise they wouldn't double attack. That aside, I've checked their Defense before through /check.

I'm going to assume your numbers are right for now, as I really don't have time to take this post apart at the moment. Yes, it's pretty safe to take average of the min/max PDIFs. Vorpal seems to have Crit Rate +20% at 100 TP, which most of the time means 25% crit rate (-/+ 1% or so.) So what you do is take the number of hits in Vorpal and multiply it by 0.75 (the percentage of the hits that won't crit) and multiply that by the average PDIF. Then take the number of hits, multiply it by 0.25 and again by the average of your critical PDIFs. Add 'em up and multiply them by your hit rate.

By the way, PDIF got changed slightly in the last update.

EDIT: Oh, and obviously also multiply by your total DMG >_> For the sake of clarity, you'd have...
[(DMG * PDIF ave * 4 * 0.75) + (DMG * crit PDIF ave * 4 * 0.25)] * Hit Rate

Crits can now go up to 3.15 PDIF.

[WishMaster3K]

Yeah let me know, Callisto. My Vorpal Blades on RDM SUCK ASS, while on PLD they're much more uber.

Which I think is wierd, but I don't exactly have a Haubergeon on RDM..

[Callisto]

Attercops are definetely WAR/WAR, otherwise they wouldn't double attack. That aside, I've checked their Defense before through /check.

I'm going to assume your numbers are right for now, as I really don't have time to take this post apart at the moment. Yes, it's pretty safe to take average of the min/max PDIFs. Vorpal seems to have Crit Rate +20% at 100 TP, which most of the time means 25% crit rate (-/+ 1% or so.) So what you do is take the number of hits in Vorpal and multiply it by 0.75 (the percentage of the hits that won't crit) and multiply that by the average PDIF. Then take the number of hits, multiply it by 0.25 and again by the average of your critical PDIFs. Add 'em up and multiply them by your hit rate.

By the way, PDIF got changed slightly in the last update.

Thanks a bunch, and yeah I gathered that from other posts I've seen, but until I see more #'s from people's tests I was going to use the old PDIF formula, as this looking for what gear will best suit Vorpal, I don't think much will be different using the old #'s.

[Callisto]

So moving on, we'll take our averaged PDIFs:

PDIFAvg = (1.92 + 1.12)/2 = 1.52
PDIFAvgCrit = (2.92 + 2.12)/2 = 2.52

So let's see what my average Vorpal would be like:

WSD = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF(3 hits)
+
WSD = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIFCrit(1 hit)

My WSC would be ((84 * .3)) * .83), comes out to 20 rounded down. fTP of Vorpal is always 1, although a Thunder/Soil Gorget would make the first hit 1.1.

WSD = ((40 + 12 + 20) * 1) * 1.52) * 3
WSD = 109 * 3 = 327

WSDCrit = (72 * 1) * 2.52
WSDCrit = 181

WSDAvg = 508

From my experiences ingame, this is pretty much dead on. Not too hot for fighting an Easy Prey, so let's see what changes I can make to improve this!

First off, there's Souleater. Souleater will take off 10% of your current HP per hit, and convert half of that HP directly into damage. My HP as RDM/DRK is a bit over 1200, and Souleater calculates each hit on a multi-hit WS simultaneously, so I would be losing 40% of my HP, while having 20% added onto Vorpal Blade. Luckily Stoneskin will absorb most of the 480 damage done to myself, and Souleater will add 240 damage to the WS assuming all 4 hits land.

There are pretty much 3 things that I can tweak to affect the damage of Vorpal Blade: STR, Attack, and Critical Hit Rate.

My fSTR is capped already, so more STR won't help on that end. I do plan on upgrading my belt to a Potent Belt and my cape to an Amemet+1, but that extra 4 STR will only add 1 point to my WSC total. STR is probably not what we want to look at.

I'm an Elvaan RDM, outside of 4% from merits and 6% from a Dissector, there's not alot I can do to noticeably boost my Critical Hit Rate. I'll leave this option out.

So this leaves Attack. My PDIF leaves alot of room for improvent, especially if max PDIF got boosted to 3+ like I've heard rumors of. So let's see what I can do to affect Attack.

One dilemma I run into is that I could afford to give up 4~ STR in favor of some Attack against EP mobs without really altering my fSTR, however most pieces that give large Attack boosts do not share slots with pieces that give large STR boosts. Instead, they share slots with pieces that give Accuracy, the only thing a melee RDM hurts more for than Attack. Against an Easy Prey you should be able to give up 20~ Accuracy without hurting yourself much, but against Greater Colibri might be a different story. We'll get to that later.

So let's say I ditch the Optical Hat, Crimson Greaves and Life Belt, and pick up some Ogre Ledelsens, an Ogre Mask, and a Swordbelt. Only about a 26k~ investment total, not too bad for testing purposes.

This will bring my Attack up to 409, giving me a cRatio of 1.73, giving me PDIFs of:

PDIFMax: 2.07
PDIFMin: 1.27
PDIFAvg: 1.67
PDIFMaxCrit: 3.00
PDIFMinCrit: 2.27
PDIFAvgCrit: 2.63

My new average Vorpal Blade comes out to:

WSD = ((72 * 1.67) * 3) + (72 * 2.63)
WSD = 360 + 189
WSD = 549(789 w/ Souleater)

Not a huge improvement, so let's keep going a bit, and tack on Last Resort. It gives around a 15% increase to Attack, which would bring me to about 469. My new cRation is 1.98, making my new PDIFs:

PDIFMax: 2.37
PDIFMin: 1.57
PDIFAvg: 1.97
PDIFMaxCrit: 3.00
PDIFMinCrit: 2.57
PDIFAvgCrit: 2.78

Using the old PDIF formula, we've nearly capped PDIF on an easy prey mob. Let's see how that turns into damage:

WSD = 72 * 1.97 * 3 + 72 * 2.78
WSD = 425 + 200 = 625(865 w/ Souleater)

You can't have Last Resort up on every single WS though, so let's try something more plausible, like Attack Food. I personally use Coeurl Subs, they add 5 STR and 20% Attack with a cap of 75 Attack. This would bring my Attack to 484, and the 5 STR would add 2 more to my WSC. The new cRatio would be capped at 2.0, and the PDIFs would be:

PDIFMax: 2.40
PDIFMin: 1.60
PDIFAvg: 2.00
PDIFMaxCrit: 3.00
PDIFMinCrit: 2.60
PDIFAvgCrit: 2.80

So the new damage would be:

WSD = 74 * 2.00 * 3 + 74 * 2.80
WSD = 444 + 207 = 651(891 w/ Souleater)

That's pretty much the best we can do with one critical hit, so let's see what the combinations would be with more than one crit:

@379 Attack(no food, current gear)

2 Crits
WSD = 72 * 1.52 * 2 + 72 * 2.52 * 2
WSD = 218 + 362 = 580(820 w/ Souleater)

3 Crits
WSD = 72 * 1.52 + 72 * 2.52 * 3
WSD = 109 + 544 = 653(893 w/ Souleater)

4 Crits
WSD = 72 * 2.52 * 4
WSD = 725(965 w/ Souleater)

@409 Attack(no food, w/ more Attack gear)

2 Crits
WSD = 72 * 1.67 * 2 + 72 * 2.63 * 2
WSD = 240 + 378 = 618(858 w/ Souleater)

3 Crits
WSD = 72 * 1.67 + 72 * 2.63 * 3
WSD = 120 + 568 = 688(928 w/ Souleater)

4 Crits
WSD = 72 * 2.63 * 4
WSD = 757(997 w/ Souleater)

@484 Attack(Coeurl Subs and more Attack Gear

2 Crits
WSD = 74 * 2.00 * 2 + 74 * 2.80 * 2
WSD = 296 + 414 = 710(950 w/ Souleater)

3 Crits
WSD = 74 * 2.00 + 74 * 2.80 * 3
WSD = 148 + 621 = 769 (1009 w/ Souleater)

4 Crits
WSD = 74 * 2.80 * 4
WSD = 828(1068 w/ Souleater)

So what this all boils down to, if you're looking to max Vorpal against Easy Preys, once you have your STR higher than around 80-82, you should probably be looking to raise your Attack by large quantities. I'll revise all of this once I get some info on how PDIF has changed in the recent updates, if you guys see something that I goofed on please point it out. Next I'll take a look at a RDM's Vorpal vs. Greater Colibri!

[Callisto]

From what I've seen the PDIF is only changed on 2H, I've tried asking around if people have seen it changed on 1H as well, but unfortunately the folks on BG are pretentious dildos, so I couldn't get an answer. I guess I can test this tonight or this weekend, I didn't really want to give up my valuable COR xp time for it, but w/e.

[Armando]

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/news-ffxi/68057-final-fantasy-xi-update-sep-10-a.html

Normal hits
Old: 1.6 to 2.4
New: (1.58 or 1.59) to (2.42 or 2.43)

Crits
Old: 2.6 to 3.0
New: (2.58 or 2.59)? to (3.14 or 3.15)

The question mark is because I couldn't confirm this, but the sample size was small enough that it's very likely I didn't see the smallest value. I doubt they've changed how crits work.

[Callisto]

Cool, so mostly only the crit cap changed significantly? I'll rework those #'s above using these when I get a chance.

Edit: Any idea if they changed the cRatio cap or the 1.2 multipler? They'd have to change one of those two to get it to a higher non-crit PDIF right?

[Callisto]

The #'s I'm seeing tossed around for 1H are 2.46 for normal and 3.15 for crits. An adjustment to the cRatio cap making it 2.05 would bring PDIF to 2.46 without altering the 1.2 conversion #, that'd be my not-really-educated guess. Not sure about the minimums though, maybe they changed the # that you subtract to get it.

I'll spend some time whacking things outside of Jeuno before Limbus tonight. I really wish they made parsers for 360, I guess I'll just have to record stuff by hand.

[nanatsu]

Yeah let me know, Callisto. My Vorpal Blades on RDM SUCK ASS, while on PLD they're much more uber.
Which I think is wierd, but I don't exactly have a Haubergeon on RDM..

There's nothing really odd about it is there? PLD has higher str and sword skill than RDM to begin with, right?

[WishMaster3K]

BUT MY PLD IS LVL 60!!!

>.<

WTH

I do more Damage in EXP than I do farming.

Sometimes.

WTH.

[Callisto]

Coincidentally enough, my Vorpals usually hit harder than most of my PLD friends' when we're goofing around, but I probably swap in more Acc/Atk/STR than they do. If they geared for DD they'd definitely outdo me.

At any rate I was posed the question of if a RDM can cap out PDIF on EM+ mobs, I've figured that alone they can't, they just don't have enough huge Attack boost pieces, however with double Minuet or a decent Chaos Roll, a RDM can top 600 Attack, which should be good enough for cap PDIF on most Even Match mobs outside of Crabs.

A RDM can likely never cap it on VTs, but I never said I wanted to be a true dedicated DD, I'm just trying to get it as good as I can, because even if a RDM is a 2nd or 3rd tier DD, they'd still be a 2nd or 3rd tier DD who can Refresh, Dispel, Haste, and Enfeeble; and no other job can claim that.

If your RDM is consistently cranking out 400 a pop on weaponskills against a VT while not being a detriment to the party in any way, I don't see how anyone could argue that they shouldn't be doing so. Unfortunately, these days of course the masses have devolved into "RDM should only ever be using /WHM and main healing because they suck at DD"(I literally heard this come from someone last night, a player who was rank 5 and had 56 RDM as their highest job.)

[WishMaster3K]

Callisto, I stopped taking my friend's advice, because neither of them are RDMs.

So they can lick nuts. If I feel I can add to the party by Meleeing, I will. But I don't see a benefit with my current gear.

WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU WHEN I WAS MAKING THAT DD RDM THREAD WITH HYRIST? :(

[Sevv]

Callisto, I stopped taking my friend's advice, because neither of them are RDMs.
So they can lick nuts. If I feel I can add to the party by Meleeing, I will. But I don't see a benefit with my current gear.
WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU WHEN I WAS MAKING THAT DD RDM THREAD WITH HYRIST? :(

And if I feel like laughing/kicking the rdm for not keeping up I will.

[Callisto]

And if I feel like laughing/kicking the rdm for not keeping up I will.

LoL, trying to figure if you mean in terms of RDM duties such as Refresh/Dispel, or in terms of DD output. Or maybe both? :wtf:

[Sevv]

LoL, trying to figure if you mean in terms of RDM duties such as Refresh/Dispel, or in terms of DD output. Or maybe both? :wtf:


Refresh/dispel/Heal/haste etc. If a rdm can keep up with the cycles and the mob doesn't use heavy aoes I don't care if they dd, have yet to meet a rdm who can do both.

[Callisto]

I never melee while main healing a party, but if I'm pulling or just Refreshing it's ridiculously simple to do your RDM stuff while meleeing, I wouldn't be able to figure out how a RDM couldn't.

You don't need to be continually hitting buttons in order to swing your sword, so you don't really have a reason to be missing Refresh/Dispel/Haste when they need to be cast. Use <st> macros for Refresh/Haste so that you can target party members while engaged on the mob. You swap to a melee/DD set while swinging, then swap back to your mage gear when you need to cast. Especially in terms of TP burn, you'll have 4/tick Refresh at the minimum, 5/tick if you have AF2 hat. If you can't Refresh yourself and 1-2 others, Haste yourself and possibly the tank, keep Enspells up, and Dia II/Sleep/Stun as needed on 800-1000 from Refresh in between Converts, you're doing something wrong.

[Sevv]

If I have a rdm who is not main healing he is the haste cycle as well, even then I have yet to meet a rdm who can keep up with it every rdm I have said ya sure go ahead dd, has lost all skill of keeping up.

[Callisto]

See, that's why I wrote a guide, to train an army of RDMs who can melee while casting and not miss a beat. Once I have 5 others I'm going to revolutionize XP parties with my Refreshburn style. Maybe if you're lucky some RDMs on Kujata will follow the Path of the Kickass. ^^b

[Sevv]

drg burn > refresh burn

maybe you should come show them how to do it then >.>

[Mhurron]

You don't need to be continually hitting buttons in order to swing your sword, so you don't really have a reason to be missing Refresh/Dispel/Haste when they need to be cast.
Every Melee RDM I've seen chooses not to cast to get more swings in. They're also giving up the bonus from Elemental staves which on some mobs might not be important, on many others is definitely is.

If you weren't invited to melee, you probably shouldn't in favor of focusing on one thing. Of course that's in a standard EXP merit. I believe that RDM should be able to be invited as a backup/addition to everything in missions or other special events, where they could melee and provide backup refresh, sleep, enfeebling and healing without being required to be quite as focused on any if they were dedicated to that roll.

[Mhurron]

Maybe if you're lucky some RDMs on Kujata will follow the Path of the Kickass. ^^b
I already kick ass, but then, I did before I even started playing.

[Sevv]

I already kick ass, but then, I did before I even started playing.

lol

[Callisto]

Every Melee RDM I've seen chooses not to cast to get more swings in. They're also giving up the bonus from Elemental staves which on some mobs might not be important, on many others is definitely is.


Oh yeah, that's definitely a no-no. The Cycle is everything as RDM, and it goes before anything else.

Keep in mind that everything I'm doing is relative to a level 75 XP party, where you're pretty much always fighting VT mobs. I'm not recommending that a 65 RDM go off and start hacking at whatever IT there party is fighting. If you need to swap in staves to land your spells on VT mobs at 75, you're doing something wrong.

The most common occurance of me meleeing in a party would be me being the party's puller vs. Greater Colibri, and it's not like you can safely do a lot of offensive casting on them anyways, so really once your cycle is done there isn't much you can do to contribute further to the success of the party. Meleeing for extra damage output is one of the few things you can do, and honestly if I'm not main healing or meleeing against Greater Colibri, I'd probably get bored and fall asleep unless camp is crwded and I need to focus on beating other pullers.

[Sevv]

i don't doubt you or some other rdms can pull it off just personally have yet to see it first hand.

[Callisto]

Actually, my favorite post-update melee activity is to just trio with 2 DRGs on Greater Colibri. DRG/BLU. DRG/WHM, and RDM/DRK is a pretty sweet setup for that.

[Sevv]

Actually, my favorite post-update melee activity is to just trio with 2 DRGs on Greater Colibri. DRG/BLU. DRG/WHM, and RDM/DRK is a pretty sweet setup for that.

Drg/Blu Rdm/nin chaining sea puks is sexy.

[Callisto]

My new fantasy: Party setup of PLD, DRK, BRD, COR, WHM, and me as RDM/DRK. With my Attack Set + Omelette + Double Min + LR/SE + Warcry + Chaos I'd pretty much have capped pDIF on a Greater Colibri. I wind up Vorpal, and pow! 1,032 damage. Screenshot that and put it all over teh intarwebs.

Oh well, a RDM can dream...and be really, really, terribly, deathly bored at work.

[arkaine23]

I Vorpal in:

Tariqah (acc +4)
Pln Khazagand (acc +10, crit rate 2%)
Chiv Chain (acc +5, str +3)
O Hat (acc +10)
Amemet +1 (str +2, attack +15)
Ogre Gloves +1 (Str +7)
Ogre Boots +1 (attack +16)
Merc Brais (acc +6)
Tiphia Sting (acc +2 attack +2)
Potent Belt (acc +8 STR +3)
Suppamomimi (Sword skill +5 = acc/attack+4)
Brutal Earring (DA 5%)
Rajas Ring (Dex +5 STR +5)
Sniper's Ring (acc +5)

acc +54 (not including the +5 DEX), STR +20, attack +37 (not Including +20 STR)

I'd like to get Pln Legs and Hat, and start using Sword Belt +1 which would drop acc -6, add attack +17, and STR +3. I sold off a Vishnu's Vest a long time ago, and kind of regret it, though it'd trade 6 acc for just 4 STR, and probably not worthwhile except on weak stuff.


Available Swords: Justice, Joyeuse, Mensur Epee

[WishMaster3K]

Ark, what kind of results do you see from that, though? What would be your average on maybe an EM mob that you're soloing on?

[Callisto]

That's a pretty nice setup, ark. After picking up the Oger Mask/Ledelsens and Swordbelt+1, and using subs, my results went up bigtime against the Attercops. I was averaging 600~, my highs coming at 740-789 when saving to full TP. My highest was 1,010 with Souleater. I want to play with some things and then test them out against Greater Colibri at some point this weekend, but definitely seeing an improvment.

[Armando]

Suppamomimi (Sword skill +5 = acc/attack+4)Minor nitpick, while skill points above 200 only give 0.9 Accuracy (well, Nagamaki uses 0.92 in his calculations, so maybe that's more accurate) you get the whole +5 Attack.

[Lmnop]

Nagamaki the monk? He proved in that thread (the DEX/crit/acc etcetera thread) that only .90 worked, actually. Tried .89, .90, .91, and .92 and only .9 fit the numbers.

Unless he realized something that debunked his own tests, I think .9 is the accepted.

My own little nitpick, though, is that the Suppa still gives you +5 attack. Only 4.6 acc.

And just because I haven't posted here yet, I feel compelled to bring up Brutal Earring. Even "some of the time" will give a sizeable boost to your Vorpal average. Though I dunno how that'd compete with DEX+2, Acc+3.

[Armando]

I see, interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

Brutal most definetely owns DEX+2 Acc+3.

[Callisto]

I see, interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

Brutal most definetely owns DEX+2 Acc+3.

I agree on this, the issue is more that I only have 50 coins at the moment, and my BRD could use a Musical Earring more than my RDM could use a Brutal, so it's going to be awhile before I can use one ^^;

Back to the math end, I've been trying hard to figure out which part changed for the new pDIF, if it was the cRatio cap or the 1.2 multiplier. The only way I could think of to figure it out is to see parses from right before the patch and right after under the exact same conditions with uncapped cRatio/pDIF, as if it was the 1.2 multi being shifted to 1.23 even uncapped cRatio would get it's damage boosted. At first I was thinking they would have raised the cRatio cap, but if the new Min for capped pDIF is indeed 1.58, which both my #'s and Armando's show, that would make the adjustment from Max to Min .88 instead of .8, and if they're going to make one of the pDIF changes in the conversion of cRatio to pDIF, it would make more sense to me that they would make both changes in that manner, and raise the 1.2 multi.

I also haven't had my coffee yet today so I might be totally off-base, but that's just what makes sense to me at the moment.

[arkaine23]

Sorry, I'll have to do some tests to give you numbers. I've really only broken this out a few times vs Lesser Colibri (EP-DC mobs). I've been fighting a lot of EM-T mobs lately to cap dagger, though I'm obviously geared quite differently blood-tanking steelshells with a dagger as /BLU, busting our Energy Drains and Gust Slashes.

Seems like about 650-750 average Vorpal with no food on Lesser Colibri with Mensur Epee and no JA buffs.