Crappy gear; when is it appropriate to say "WTF?"

[Effedup]

I haven't posted in a while, and while I DID do a few searches to find a similar thread, I didn't come up with anything specific, so please don't flame me ^^

Basically, my question is this: has anyone noticed lately how lazy people have been getting as pertains to gear? A little background first...

I'm in a small social LS of RL friends, and we static once or twice a week. Because we've recently added a friend to our roster (i.e., finally managed to convince him to play ffxi with us ^^) we've had to put our main jobs on hold for a while and take up new jobs with him. Not a big deal at all...we static either WHM/BRD/WAR in the high 20's or RDM/RNG/MNK in the low 20's, so it typically isn't too terribly bad trying to put party's together (that's not to say we haven't waited over an hour with 3/6, however) in that we have healing, pulling, and tanking somewhat covered (at those levels anyways).

What HAS been bugging the shit out of me is the gear people are partying with at these levels. The last 6 parties we've had in the dunes and quiffim have had at least one member wearing ridiculously sub par gear. I mean, level 18 wearing level 1 and 7 gear? We had a DRK the other day that was literally wearing nothing but a scythe, body, hands and feet (can't remember what they were wearing specifically, but I know there wasn't any bone gear there). We picked up a WHM about a month ago in jueno that was literally wearing all the starter gear, no belt, no rings, no earrings...she was at least honest when we picked her up and said her gear kinda sucked, but after checking her I think "kinda sucked" was a bit of an understatement.

Now, I'm not an elitist by any stretch; I don't expect someone to be all pimped out at level 20 with all +1's on, but God, at least a piece or two of gear somewhat near their level would be nice. I always made sure I had something reasonable on when I first started partying; I was always broke, but I had decent gear, and upgraded when I could. Nowadays it seems like people are just getting lazy about it. And I'm not talking about just noobs here, either, there were a few rank 5's in there at one point or another.

I don't want to be a jerk about it, but is it appropriate to question people about their gear when they show up? Low level parties have been slim picking's lately (have been for a while, really), and I don't want to come off as ungrateful, but at the same time it kinda burns my ass considering all the trouble I went through farming and such to make sure that my char wasn't totally gimped back when I started out. If armor and such is taking a back seat at this point, I'm going to save up my gil and buy the choice shit for my main job rather than wasting it all keeping my low leveled jobs geared up. Either that, or I'm just going to have to bring extra gear for everybody to wear, cause something's gotta change.

So end's my rant...again, sorry if this has been covered somewhere else...

[Mhurron]

First, think for yourself a little and don't wait like drooling morons in the dunes. Three is plenty to go out and start killing things in the Highlands or the Plateau.

Second, don't demand of someone what you won't demand of yourself. Of course the reverse is true as well, expect from others what you would of yourself. If you wouldn't party with some of the crap gear they're wearing then speak up about it. There is no reason someone who has no intention of trying to play the game should ruin your experience.

[Murphie]

If you're the one making the party, you have the right to say "If you don't have better gear, I'd rather not party with you."

Actually, if you're joining the party, you also have that right.

A lot of people put up with it, especially in the early to mid levels, because it's hard to find parties already. But it's perfectly acceptable to wait until a group of people who aren't trying to leech through the levels comes along. There's no reason you can solo/duo/trio/whatever until you find enough people.

[Callisto]

At 20~ it depends since there aren't always things that are worthwile to wear, especially for a subjob that you don't want to spend much on. I didn't wear pants at all when I leveled RNG until I hit 30, as prior to the Noct set there isn't crap in that slot that gives anything outside of a few defense points, considering how I rarely got hit it wasn't worth spending gil on.

If you're 50+, that's a different story. If someone intends to take a job to endgame levels wearing absolute crap gear, you shouldn't feel bad about pointing out that they have room for improvement. No need to be mean about it or call them 'lol' or 'gimp', but just offer some suggestions as to where they can improve. Many times they could equip their job reasonably well stat-wise for cheap.

[Effedup]

Thanks for the advice...I get what you're saying about trioing; our static trio'd in La Thiene up to about 16-17 for both jobs, but at that point the exp gets REALLY slow so, despite how much we all collectively hate the dunes, we ended up there trying to get to 20 as fast as possible. We also recently trio'd in Jugner after waiting over an hour trying to put together a 21 party, but that was soooo slow, so after getting 22 we called it a night.

As far as the gear goes, like I said I don't expect someone to be totally pimped out...if someone is over 21 and they're still wearing mainly bone gear, that's ok with me, it's the people that are 21 wearing their noob gear that's making me grind my teeth at this point.

Anyways, I think I will start speaking up. I didn't want to come across as an asshole, but I guess I'd rather be an asshole than watch someone hit for 10 and get drilled for 100 constantly, while our exp/hour dwindles...

I didn't wear pants at all when I leveled RNG until I hit 30

That's understandable, me and the RNG in my static have had a few discussions already about how hard it is to gear up since so much of RNG's gear is unique to RNG and maybe a handful of other jobs. But almost everyone wears Bone, and almost everyone wears Beetle...I saved those sets specifically since they are so versatile, and consequently, gearing up a lowbie job aint so bad. I'm a pack-rat by nature, though, so maybe I just expect too much...

[IfritnoItazura]

I don't want to be a jerk about it, but is it appropriate to question people about their gear when they show up?

When it gets in the way of performing their roles. At low levels, this means the bar is set for/at:

Melee: Effective, level appropriate weapon, and a few gears which contribute to damage output. (e.g. Battle Gloves, Atk+ earrings, Fang/Spike Necklace, etc.) Decent defense in body and leg slots.
Tank: Level appropriate, high defense/VIT armor, and reasonable weapon.
Healer: Some hMP/MP gear. (Probably more important to have hMP food.)
RDM: MND gear, and some hMP/MP gear.
BLM: INT gear, and some hMP/MP gear.
RNG: R.Acc gear, level appropriate, high damage ranged weapon, good ammo.

I especially hate it when tanks show up in underleveled gears and make excuses like they haven't had a chance to go back to city to pick up new gears. Why the heck did they put up seek flag for if they are not ready to party?! Would it have killed them to get the gears first, then put up flag?!

[Evilisgood]

Perfect example of what we are talking about in this thread. Last night I was bored so I went out and leveled my PLD/WAR. I'm level 39 so I was hanging out in Rolanberry Fields with my flag and search comment up soloing goblins. My gear is as follows

Grudge sword
Jennet shield
Happy egg
Medieval collar
Dodge earrings x 2
Verve rings +1 x 2
Warriors belt +1
Cavaliers mantle +1

I was wearing the entire Kamphschallers set (no idea how that is spelled). So grand total I am sporting +23 Vit. and +13 Agi.

Now before anyone says anything I know most people don't carry all HQ armor at those levels, but gil is not an issue for me right now so I figured I would splurge. Anyway I got invited to a pt and made my way down to CN. While I am on my way our pt lead gets another pld. I was like ummmm wtf..... but pickings were very slim so I said whatever. I get to camp (beetle camp past the caveberries) and we get going.

Exp. is ok not great but my whole pr is new gen (360 peeps) so they are learning so that is cool by me. I notice the other pld's gear. He is wearing the entire Centurions mail set. So I axamine him and am lolwtf. Sub tanks gear:

Holy sword
Kite shield
Bastokian ring
(level 14 str ring) forget the name

No neck
No back
No waist
No earrings
and centurions mail.

So lol to myself for awhile and then take a 10 minute break (healer doing laundry) and this pld starts talking to me. the whoa is me taile starts with the I am poor no idea how to make gilz and my LS disappeared on day. So he is poor, has no ls, and no idea how to gear himself.

My point in all this is that yeah his setup failed. Failed hard for pld but he was not making excuses. The only reason he was leveling was to take a break from farming for days to make gilz to craft. Some people are just starting out and need help. Some more than others granted but whatever. It's ok to lol just remember that way back in the day (4 years ago for me) that it was hard to get by and sometimes making gilz at lowbie levels sucks. So give the new peeps chances and see what happens.

If not disband, /blacklist add <t> and move on.

[Evilisgood]

Man I just noticed I need to update my sig^^. Man I fail sometimes.

[Lunaryn]

To be fair, I've had subless melee characters wear mostly the same gear from 12-18 given a combination of distance from city, long parties, and less than spectacular options in the range. I generally prioritize weapons over armor in terms of keeping gear up to date, and at low levels especially I prioritize gear I have over new purchases (I tend to be reluctant to part with gear I could still use, so I have a selection of weapons and armor across a wide range of levels).

Again, consider it based on role. A melee DD needs a weapon with DPS reasonably in line with what common weapons of their level provide. A tank needs defense, so they should be taking advantage of pretty much every armor upgrade; other jobs can often skip armor upgrades that only offer def, this is especially a consideration for mages, who can reasonably bring a wand, a hairpin, rings, earrings (arguably not even that important at dunes levels), and essentially go naked in every other slot for a good many levels. There are some good gloves in the low teens, though, that you might want to seriously consider investing in; for whatever reason, though, I think I've only seen these in Jeuno...

[Nohtnera]

At those levels, I tend to pay more attention to food, because as others have said there is not much gear that can do a lot for you besides the primary stuff like IfritnoIzura said ; Wands and rings for mages, A decent and appropriate weapon for melee/range attackers, good armor for the tank. I always bring extra food to parties... even past 40 when people should want to make a job that obviously isnt a sub do as best as it can.

[Mog]

If it's a pre-37 party, get used to it. A lot of people who level subjobs aren't really serious about getting the best, most updated gear and wasting more inventory space to pick up something that fills up a slot. Most people just throw what random assortment of gear they have and head to the dunes.

However, if this is a party that's past 37, I would start questioning their gear choice and if they're too lazy/poor to buy it.

[Ziero]

Zombie thread ftw?

[Boldfinger]

beaten to the punch :eek:


but yeah, anything before 37 and that's just how it is.

[kaibelf]

Honestly this all plays into a much broader issue of laziness vs. practicality. For example, a lot of people have so-so gear (or NO gear in some slots) because of legit reasons, such as being new, not having rich friends, or just being poor in general.
However, there are many who subscribe (and I've done this myself) to the believe that they don't need a full set of fine updated gear for something that is, say, their 11th subjob, or those last few levels to 37. I caught hell once from a party for wearing my RSE on ninja, but honestly, I did my job, I have 7 75's, and I don't have the SPACE these days for more low-level crap. I have SO much high level stuff clogging my safe/house/locker that even something as basic as RR items for events sometimes cause an issue.
Honestly, it would be good if the inventory system was slightly revamped so that items you actually are wearing didn't take up slots in your bag. After all, I tote around (at all times) my gear for SMN, BRD, SCH, and BLM. You're talking multiple outfits, full staff sets, EXTRA pieces in some cases (Yinyang Robe), instruments, ugh.... it's rare that my bag has more than 3-4 spaces available at all, so moving a load of items just to outfit something like a puppetmaster I'm leveling for fun os just not workable.

[TheGrandMom]

I wonder if this issue is still rampant since...........


THIS THREAD IS NEARLY A YEAR OLD.......

















........in case some of you didn't notice.

[IfritnoItazura]

I wonder if this issue is still rampant
It is.

Especially when there's a shortage of low level players, every poorly geared person is that much more annoying. It's not just not practical to replace anyone in party these days.

These days, I'm advocating bringing a PL to Valkurm Dunes, and just kick any leech and go with 3-5 people party if that's what it takes. If picked up good healer, terrific--the PL can read a book or something and only intervene when things get hairy. If a good tank, easy; just keep the tank targeted and toss out cures in a measured pace.

Badly geared tank? Inattentive healer? AFK melee with Lv.7 weapon? Kick'em all. Downgrade from crabs to lower tier goblin if party size decreases a lot if one has to--people who don't put in a minimum of effort to gear or play, don't need experience points either.

[Karinya]

Yes, actually, the issue *is* still rampant, as bad as ever if not worse.

The age of some threads matters a lot (e.g. threads about events, or speculation about the next update). The age of other threads doesn't make a damn bit of difference because the thing they are about hasn't changed.

Accordingly, people who yak about thread age when they're on the second kind of thread, or without even bothering to see what the thread is about, baffle me.


Anyway, I tend to be too softhearted for my own good in parties; sometimes we'd probably actually do better booting the badly geared guy and fighting with 5. (Fighting with 5 is a lot better than it used to be, although it depends somewhat on what job you lost.) The gimp's next party would *definitely* do better if he actually went and improved his gear and didn't just cuss us out and put his flag back up without changing a damn thing. Unfortunately, the latter is probably what would actually happen, but at least *my* party would have a chance at a better replacement.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Honestly, from Lv1-37, I completely understand many jobs not equipping a full set of gear or keeping it updated, but when melees and mages don't use food I'm sorely disappointed. Of course there are items though that are dirt cheap and very beneficial that shouldn't be passed up. Gear for the sake of added defense is unnecessary on a party member who almost never gets hit.

I highly suggest carrying around stacks of Sausage (+3 STR, +27% ATK w/30 cap) and Ginger Cookies when leveling a subjob. The stuff is dirt cheap, so I just give about 3 hours worth away and tell them where to get more.

[Lunaryn]

Somewhat agree with the above sentiments, and things have been getting worse, though I tend to see more egregious offenses from high-level players coming back to low-level jobs. It's pretty clear that a laissez-faire attitude toward xp is the predominant norm and no one makes much attempt at all to educate new players (and the few who do tend to take a lot of flak for it from those who aren't used to being criticized on their in-game behavior). These days most experienced players who care about quality in partying experience either solo or static lower levels, period. They don't even consider seeking in dunes or qufim range.

That said, and my earlier post in this thread spoke to this somewhat, the specific example cited by the OP doesn't strike me as particularly problematic or worthy of a strong reaction. He seems to be offended by the low level numbers on people's gear, as if level numbers alone made a difference. He talks about not expecting the best, HQ, and such, but then criticizes a melee (who doesn't sound like they're tanking) for not wearing Bone. Unless you mean Bone +1, the only difference between Bone and Brass or Bronze (or going naked) is def (and even if you do: def and eva). While being able to take a hit or two matters in some situations for some jobs, in others it can often be seen as a waste of money or a poor choice of priority.

I leveled THF as my first job, and it took quite some time for me to get to a point of buying nice, stat-boosting gear for most slots. I even ended up borrowing HQ gear from someone else in my LS for the jungles. I think the first piece of real, proper, stat-improving gear (not counting rings, I had Amethyst Rings since shortly after getting Sneak Attack) I got on my own was Bastokan Subligar (I did eventually replace it with Republic Subligar, rather later on, after we'd seen our first bouts of deflation).

I actually did keep up in def. But I also know that it did squat for me in almost every party I was in. With Tarutaru HP, against IT mobs, I wouldn't survive long with the mob's attention with or without def from gear. And I almost never got the mob's attention.

Ultimately, the problem really isn't whether any given individual tries hard to meet expectations or doesn't give a shit about them. The problem is that the community as a whole has given up on things like coordination, trying to form a solid party and use it to its best potential. At this point everyone's inclined to just wing everything, and blame the stupidity or general ineptitude of those around them if anything goes wrong. Why plan anything when some idiot might screw up your plan, or argue with it?

The FFXI community as a whole has lost the sense of coherent identity, expectations, and aspirations that once set it apart so strongly from other MMORPGs. We don't know what to expect from each other, we don't even believe we should expect anything from each other. We don't even ask, let alone demand strategy, cooperation, communication...

[TheGrandMom]

It is.

Yes, I know. That wasn't the point of my post.

[Boldfinger]

These days, I'm advocating bringing a PL to Valkurm Dunes, and just kick any leech and go with 3-5 people party if that's what it takes. If picked up good healer, terrific--the PL can read a book or something and only intervene when things get hairy. If a good tank, easy; just keep the tank targeted and toss out cures in a measured pace.

But now I'm at the stage where I've managed to get my WHM to 20 but whenever I try to get a party now all I seem to get is "We have PL - no need Healer". So I've tried going whm/bst to get myself some progress but it's REALLY heavy going this early in levels.

I hate PLs solely for this reason. :(

[Satori]

I hate Pl'ers for the fact that they totally destroy any chances for healers in the party to skill up propperly.
Most people will say just stand somewhere and spam spells but it really shouldnt be the case. When I played Whm I was in parties where they had a Pl. Being new back then I really didnt know any better it wasnt until I got to kazham and realised about skills and such properly. Not only that there are the very basics that people need to learn from timing things correctly.

As for gear there's no excuse unless there are items that you practically have to sell your soul for then if it's benneficial for your job then get it, If you cant
1) farm for it
2) sell your soul.

I mean seriously if you cant afford it then farm you might as well because there's going to be something else you can't afford soon also.
I'm no angel as far as gear goes.

recently with my Drg I went from the dunes to Qufim wearing Bone Harness +1.
I got my Drg to 22 but felt awful doing just even 1 level when I should have been wearing Beetle?

Maybe I'm wrong to think that my example is ok. But turn up to my Pt in a santa hat and
1) it better be the +1
2) you better be a mage.
3)preferably around christmas.

[IfritnoItazura]

That wasn't the point of my post.
Oh, I know that. But, the new posts were on topic, and it's unlikely this issue will go away this year or next year. Rather than hinting at the thread age, you might have done just as well sticky'ing this; people will be complaining about badly geared players until an hour before FFXI /shutdown, I bet. :biggrin:


But now I'm at the stage where I've managed to get my WHM to 20 but whenever I try to get a party now all I seem to get is "We have PL - no need Healer". So I've tried going whm/bst to get myself some progress but it's REALLY heavy going this early in levels.

I hate PLs solely for this reason. :(
*shrug* Those are The Stupid PLs.

I rather have less work as a PL, so I can browse web or read something offline while glancing at the FFXI window only every so often. If things are going smoothly enough, can even just ask the friend in party to "Send me a /tell if something bad is happening; I'm semi-AFK."

Happy to have a healer in party, as a PL. Same for a tank.

[Karinya]

The FFXI community as a whole has lost the sense of coherent identity, expectations, and aspirations that once set it apart so strongly from other MMORPGs. We don't know what to expect from each other, we don't even believe we should expect anything from each other. We don't even ask, let alone demand strategy, cooperation, communication...
The fish rots from the head down; exping rots from merit levels down. All those things are no longer necessary or even beneficial to a merit party. Spam rampage (or other multihit ws) and utsusemi and get more exp than you would with strategy and coordination. (If you did have a strategy, amnesia would probably wreck it anyway; but imps have such low defense and HP that killing imps with mindless zerging is still faster and gives more exp than killing tougher mobs with intelligence and coordination.) Who cares if you even have armor, you take 0 damage guaranteed with shadows up.

That doesn't actually work before level 74, but that doesn't stop people from trying it.

PLs have something to do with it too, allowing people to get away with and even level up in parties that a few years ago would have left them face down in the sand; there was a time when you needed some level of skill, coordination, and everyone doing their freaking job just to survive, but mostly, I blame ToAU.

[TheGrandMom]

I hate Pl'ers for the fact that they totally destroy any chances for healers in the party to skill up propperly.
Most people will say just stand somewhere and spam spells but it really shouldnt be the case. When I played Whm I was in parties where they had a Pl. Being new back then I really didnt know any better it wasnt until I got to kazham and realised about skills and such properly. Not only that there are the very basics that people need to learn from timing things correctly.


Yep had a few p/l'd parties recently that made me groan. One party the p/l'er was worthless because he didn't pay attention or didn't care and same for the healer in the party. I guess our healer thought free exp and went to fix the roof on his house. At another p/l'd party, we had a pld...YIPPEE....not. The pld was obviously p/l'd too often or an idiot. Voke....do you have it? Obviously not and the puller was nearly dying. I was on sam/war and, unfortunately I actually cared, so I started voking. I eventually became the tank for 4 levels.

Oh, I know that. But, the new posts were on topic, and it's unlikely this issue will go away this year or next year. Rather than hinting at the thread age, you might have done just as well sticky'ing this; people will be complaining about badly geared players until an hour before FFXI /shutdown, I bet. :biggrin:


My post was called a joke, sorry you can't take one. As or a sticky, not for a thread that no one will care about in a week or two and adds no informational value to the forums. :biggrin: If you'd like to discuss this further, please PM me.

[skeeterlite]

I wonder if this issue is still rampant since...........


THIS THREAD IS NEARLY A YEAR OLD.......

















........in case some of you didn't notice.


I can verify it being an issue :) I was kicked from a group for not having +mnd gear as a lvl 17 rdm.

I still don't know why I was kicked.


___

Didn't read the other posts after the quoted one btw, just quoted from that point =/

[Effedup]

I really don't see what the big deal is about expecting people to wear somewhat appropriate gear. In a non PL'd party people would scream bloody murder when the Tank was wearing garbage gear, why should DD's or any other party role be off the hook? I don't care if you're a NIN with shadows...at some point, shadows are going to drop and you're going to get hit. Same for DD's, nobody plans for the "what if?" anymore. "Oh, I'll never get hit cause I'm just a DD and if I do it's all the Tanks fault..." Bullshit. You should be able to take a punch or two without the Main Heal cure spamming you, and if the gear was semi-appropriate, you could. The NQ gear is pretty cheap through the levels, and no one is asking people to have an Emperor's Hairpin, or Leaping Boots; just gear that is somewhat worth a shit. If you're in the mid-20s wearing some leather gear you are an idiot.

Honestly, it IS the rank 10 peeps that add the most insult to injury. If someone is new to the game then we tend to cut them slack, and take the opportunity to TEACH the young ones about what gear is good for that job, what websites are good for reference, etc. I could care less how many A.F. sets you have, I don't care about all the high level Rare/Ex gears you are carrying around...if you want to party in the Dunes or Quiffim get the gear for it. I don't care if it's your 20th job through the Dunes, if you've been here 20 times before you had plenty of opportunity to buy Bone gear before, didn't you? Let's try treating those low-level parties with the same importance as all the endless Campaign and Sky runs for once and see if things generally improve. I'm betting they would...

It's irritating because it's just laziness. Nobody gives a shit about sub-37 parties anymore and treat it like "who cares?" Then, of course, people that ARE on their first trip through are like, "Oh, I can come out with nothing but a sword and a smile and they'll just have to deal with it" And so continues the cycle. The same people that bitch and complain about how no one skillchains anymore don't say a word about it in parties, either...that level 12 with no subjob doesn't know what the hell a skillchain is. I'll take the 2 minutes at the outset of an exp party and calculate our skillchains for us, and if more people would actually DO IT and stop complaining about how no one does it things would get better.

And as for PL's, I think they are at least half of the reason why things are the way they are now in game. No one wants to actually work and learn anymore, they just wanna be "OMG 75" in like 20 minutes. People don't learn how to play the game if they never really played it correctly.

[Neomage]

I used to have a semi-static of three people when I was leveling 50-65. I was the BLM, then we had a WHM and a MNK. The MNK usually made the party, and like me, he thought that having at least decent gear was a minimum requirement. So whenever someone joined our PT with just... horrible gear, as soon as they got to camp, I would D2 them. Usually they ended up in Jeuno and I told them either to disband , or buy some decent gear and then head back to camp. Once a guy ended up in B. Peninsula. At first I felt bad - then I realized if he was to stupid to get decent gear and set his home point in an decent place. he probably deserved it.

[TheGrandMom]

Honestly, it IS the rank 10 peeps that add the most insult to injury. If someone is new to the game then we tend to cut them slack, and take the opportunity to TEACH the young ones about what gear is good for that job, what websites are good for reference, etc. I could care less how many A.F. sets you have, I don't care about all the high level Rare/Ex gears you are carrying around...if you want to party in the Dunes or Quiffim get the gear for it. I don't care if it's your 20th job through the Dunes, if you've been here 20 times before you had plenty of opportunity to buy Bone gear before, didn't you? Let's try treating those low-level parties with the same importance as all the endless Campaign and Sky runs for once and see if things generally improve. I'm betting they would...


It's like a huge joke in our ls when they decide to level a low job. They nearly brag about how shitty their equips are and how funny it is. Then they complain about the nubs in their parties....ya riiiiiiiight

[kaibelf]

Wow someone's in a crappy mood. :o

[Mhurron]

I can verify it being an issue :) I was kicked from a group for not having +mnd gear as a lvl 17 rdm.

I still don't know why I was kicked.
Because you didn't have MND gear, you said so yourself.

[Raydeus]

I seriously doubt someone would kick a RDM out of a party just because they don't have +MND gear. At that level sticking debuffs is fairly easy even without MND gear on, so it must've been something else. <_<;

Specially playing skill comes to mind.

[skeeterlite]

I seriously doubt someone would kick a RDM out of a party just because they don't have +MND gear. At that level sticking debuffs is fairly easy even without MND gear on, so it must've been something else. <_<;

Specially playing skill comes to mind.


I can guarantee you playing skill is not an issue. These guys were just rude asses in general. I was kicked upon arrival - no mobs had been killed or pulled. It wasn't a total loss for me, as I made a new friend out of the ordeal and they are going to static with me when I start leveling whm up.
______________________________
Because you didn't have MND gear, you said so yourself.

I'm new to the game - how the hell was I suppose to know a rdm needs mnd gear? Since then I have gotten a few pieces for a base of +4 gear and I have cooked 3 stacks of roast mushrooms for a total of +7mnd. I personally think the community of FFXI are elite assholes and right now I'm just rolling through the punches and finding a few folks here and there who are actually nice folks who can take a second or two to explain things to a new player.

[Raydeus]

I can guarantee you playing skill is not an issue. These guys were just rude asses in general. I was kicked upon arrival - no mobs had been killed or pulled. It wasn't a total loss for me, as I made a new friend out of the ordeal and they are going to static with me when I start leveling whm up.

Ah, in that case you were way better off not being in that party anyway. Plus soloing at that lvl I usually get more xp/hr than regular parties anyway, although duoing is the best xp by far.

Good thing you got something good out of it. :thumbsup:

[Effedup]

It's like a huge joke in our ls when they decide to level a low job. They nearly brag about how shitty their equips are and how funny it is. Then they complain about the nubs in their parties....ya riiiiiiiight

That's it exactly right there...how can people complain about others when they are wearing garbage? I mean, doesn't anyone have a sense of pride anymore, or is that strictly a 38-75 job trait? I worked my ass off farming and crafting when I started out to be able to afford those nice pieces of lowbie gear, because, especially at those levels, every little bit helps; I run low on inventory space, too, even with 4 mules...but I manage. It takes me 30 minutes or more sometimes to mule gear around to equip my main well...but I do it anyways because no matter what level I am, I want to be as good as I can possibly be. If everyone had that same sentiment, maybe the Dunes, Quiffim, or Kazham wouldn't be as broken as people CONSTANTLY bitch about. Any naked idiot can be PL'd, but it obviously takes someone with some modicum of skill to actually play without one.

If everyone is geared somewhat well, then the party as a whole can roll with the punches and make some real progress. If you're DDing, and your tank is having difficulties, if you're wearing decent defense gear you can pull hate for a moment and keep the party going. We all know that shit happens; it doesn't matter how good you are or how many trips you've made through the Dunes you're prolly going to die sometime. By going out to an exp camp wearing crap because you just don't want to take the time to gear up right, or don't feel like storing some of your high level armor for a night to clear up some inventory space, you're basically giving everyone in that party the finger. Would behavior like that be tolerated during endgame activities? Obviously not...so why do we tolerate it at the lowbie camps? Why does one have to be more important than the other? I assure you that the person that is getting out there for the FIRST time thinks it's important...

I realize I'm ranting, and our LS's standards obviously aren't shared by all...it just sucks that people that are just starting out probably aren't going to have the good experiences I did when I started because of how horribly indifferent people are getting sub-37. I've been playing for almost 3 years and I don't even have a 75 yet (my high job is 44), and it's hard getting parties out there at all, let alone decent ones, so this is something I deal with all the time, hence my strong feelings on the issue. Trying to level without a semi-static is damn near impossible anymore, but if everyone came together as a community it wouldn't have to be that way. Just wishful thinking on my part...and I just needed to vent. Hopefully some of you guys understand... ^^

By the way, I love that D2 suggestion, that never even occured to me. Nice quick way to get your point across...

[TheGrandMom]

That's it exactly right there...how can people complain about others when they are wearing garbage? I mean, doesn't anyone have a sense of pride anymore, or is that strictly a 38-75 job trait? I worked my ass off farming and crafting when I started out to be able to afford those nice pieces of lowbie gear, because, especially at those levels, every little bit helps; I run low on inventory space, too, even with 4 mules...but I manage. It takes me 30 minutes or more sometimes to mule gear around to equip my main well...but I do it anyways because no matter what level I am, I want to be as good as I can possibly be.

Exactly what I do too. Just started to level Sam in fact, took me the better part of an hour to track down all my equips between my mules and hubby's mules. It was worth it. One person in a party I got even /t'd me and thanked me for not coming half naked. I was a bit surprised but when I saw the whm in a level 1 tunica (well known level 75 elitest), I understood. (And I don't want to hear from people about how mages don't need to wear up to date equips. They draw hate too and get hit. They do need decent equips. This guy was level 26 for pete's sake!)

[Effedup]

Exactly what I do too. Just started to level Sam in fact, took me the better part of an hour to track down all my equips between my mules and hubby's mules. It was worth it. One person in a party I got even /t'd me and thanked me for not coming half naked. I was a bit surprised but when I saw the whm in a level 1 tunica (well known level 75 elitest), I understood. (And I don't want to hear from people about how mages don't need to wear up to date equips. They draw hate too and get hit. They do need decent equips. This guy was level 26 for pete's sake!)

It's a nice feeling, isn't it? When someone /check's you and compliments you on your gears and thanks you for caring. I also get compliments myself from time to time, and it's nice when that time spent is acknowledged.

Good luck with your Sam, I just recently started levelling mine (I'm 19 as of now) and I'm really enjoying it. ^^

[Lunaryn]

The fish rots from the head down; exping rots from merit levels down. All those things are no longer necessary or even beneficial to a merit party. Spam rampage (or other multihit ws) and utsusemi and get more exp than you would with strategy and coordination. (If you did have a strategy, amnesia would probably wreck it anyway; but imps have such low defense and HP that killing imps with mindless zerging is still faster and gives more exp than killing tougher mobs with intelligence and coordination.) Who cares if you even have armor, you take 0 damage guaranteed with shadows up.

That doesn't actually work before level 74, but that doesn't stop people from trying it.

PLs have something to do with it too, allowing people to get away with and even level up in parties that a few years ago would have left them face down in the sand; there was a time when you needed some level of skill, coordination, and everyone doing their freaking job just to survive, but mostly, I blame ToAU.

Those are probably the most significant factors, though the general improvement in characters' power levels probably has a fair bit to do with it too.

When I first joined, PLs could be found in the dunes, but were rare in Qufim and unheard of in the jungles. The general attitude of the community toward them was that they were a degrading element, something that had the primary result of pushing the make-or-break point for players, skill- and intelligence-wise, out of the dunes and into Qufim. Very few PLs were willing to PL outside the dunes, but they persisted in the dunes because the experienced players coming back for low jobs hated the slow xp rate, frequency of death-causing accidents, etc. that tend to be par for the course in the dunes. Even though there were definitely "I want my XP now!" voices in favor of PLs, and some were reluctant to see a problem with them in the limited capacity in which they existed at the time, there was a distinct anti-PL sentiment among many in the community. PLs were a truly controversial phenomenon at the time, and many worried about the impact they'd have on the community overall.

It didn't take that long for PLs to start appearing in Qufim and the jungles, though. It seemed to follow a somewhat predictable set of stages. First, PLing became more usual in the dunes, to the point where a significant minority of parties had them. Qufim became the new make-or-break point, with many people learning things such as skillchains, hate management, proper healing, etc. for the first time in their low-20s, because learning such things had not been necessary in their PL'd parties. Eventually, Qufim became the same cesspool of incompetence that the experienced players so hated the dunes for being. More problems, more deaths, more frustration... and more PLs. Goblin Bounty Hunter was sort of the last nail in the coffin there, though PLs were already pretty common before that ill-planned anti-RMT measure made the most popular xp camps 15-25 no longer viable without a PL. (They did eventually scale back on the GBHs' levels to the point where they're in line with xp mobs of those areas, at least.)

Still, even with the progression of PLs into Qufim and the jungles, it was still unheard of for a long time for PLs to operate in higher-level xp camps. The community seemed to have decided that going past 30 crossed the line between low-level camps where help could be justified, and high-level camps where people needed to stand on their own.

This changed dramatically with the release of ToAU and the rise of meleeburn parties. When all existing 50+ xp camps were abandoned in the jump to the comparatively easy xp offered by ToAU camps, the line which delineated Dunes/Qufim/Jungles from Altepa/Garlaige/etc. faded quickly. All core zone xp sucked, all core zone xp camps were sub-par, and it was much easier for people to say "I shouldn't have to put up with this kind of xp rate. We need a PL to get xp efficiently."

I think the high rate of xp gain currently possible at the highest levels has warped players' understanding of xp gain generally, and made it difficult to accept or care about the nominal xp rates a party can achieve on its own in a "hard" camp, which by the modern definition is practically every xp camp before Wajaom Woodlands' Lesser Colibri.

The fact that tactics useful in lower level parties are useless in meripo is probably a significant contributing factor, but I think xp/hr expectations is at the heart of the attitudes prevalent throughout today's pre-50 parties.

Edit: Whoops, actually neglected to make my main point here.

When you combine three elements of the changes that occurred over the time I've watched the community, you can start to see the nature of the shift:

1) PCs are getting better gear, better boosts, xp boosting equipment, greater varieties of ways to xp. Generally speaking, XP is getting easier to acquire.

2) With the introduction of ToAU, party XP is done against much squishier mobs from about the 50s onward. This enhances the advantages from the first point.

3) The ubiquity of PLs in pre-ToAU camps removes much of the remaining challenge and hardship from xp gain at lower levels.

In short, the essence of the efficiency that the community strove for has changed. Originally, this game had a reputation of being the hardest, most solo-unfriendly, most cooperation-and-teamwork-requiring of any major MMORPG. Just getting to a level like 30 required a lot of effort, working with a lot of people, understanding how the game worked. Aside from anomalies like account-buyers or obvious RMT, in general the competence level of players went up significantly as levels rose. The community attributed this to the harsh realities of leveling causing those who don't learn the game well to find themselves unable to progress past the dunes or Qufim. A party demanded a lot from its members because it wanted to get good xp/hr, or at the very least avoid the deaths that would seriously harm it, and a party really did need to perform well to stand a chance in the harsh realities it was operating under.

At the moment, there's little impetus to perform all that well in a lot of circumstances, or to differentiate yourself. A PL has more impact on your xp rate at low levels than whether you can perform a skillchain. In places where mobs are plentiful, many have realized just how much better in xp/hr terms it is to pick off weak targets quickly rather than take a challenging mob. As leveling gets easier, what it takes to be efficient changes, as well as the particular ways in which efficiency matters.

With such a huge variety of sources of xp, I doubt Pandora's Box can be closed in this case. It wouldn't hurt to take a long, careful look at how xp rates and caps are set up, though, and try to at least even out the risk/reward ratio.

[IfritnoItazura]

Very few PLs were willing to PL outside the dunes, but they persisted in the dunes because the experienced players coming back for low jobs hated the slow xp rate, frequency of death-causing accidents, etc. that tend to be par for the course in the dunes. Even though there were definitely "I want my XP now!" voices in favor of PLs, and some were reluctant to see a problem with them in the limited capacity in which they existed at the time, there was a distinct anti-PL sentiment among many in the community. PLs were a truly controversial phenomenon at the time, and many worried about the impact they'd have on the community overall.

[ ... ]

Eventually, Qufim became the same cesspool of incompetence that the experienced players so hated the dunes for being. More problems, more deaths, more frustration... and more PLs.

Last time I PL'ed a friend in Valkurm Dunes, not a single WAR or /WAR seeking, so no tanks. Only my friend on RDM, and one other RDM could qualify as a healer--but we lacked DDs. So, both RDMs were used as DDs.

That was the case for 3 hours.

PL was pretty much the only way to make reasonable progress--it's not all about dumbing down the standards, I think. Practically forced me to reevaluate the value of PL--it really is the best thing I can do for friends who wish to level a new job. =/

[Saren]

I hate to say it but I'm less anti PL at low level than I used to be. I do a fair amount of PLing where I go along to be there for emergencies only. If there is a whm in the party I ask them, in tell, if they want me to proper PL or be there for if something goes really wrong so they get the choice of how much I'm doing because it's only fair to do it that way.

Even with dancer etc it's very difficult to get very low level parties with enough of the roles covered to work, what Itazura described seems to be fairly common and I HATE how little trouble most people (especially people with multiple 75s) take with their gear. The reason they insist on a PL is because an IT can 1/2 shot them on a normal hit.

The one that really pissed me off was taking my ninja to Qufim. I went to town on ninja, shuriken the works so I dropped about 80k on tools/food/etc before I went to this party. My party had me and war/mnk so there should have been someone to voke off me to let me get shadows back up right?

The war refused to provoke period (the damage he took when he was hit was terrifying but I was pissed already with him and didn't want to make it worse by seeing how bad his gear really was) and refused to use anything but scyth or greatsword. When I questioned him about it I got the 'it's just a subjob' and 'I have a job at 75, my inventory space is really limited!!!!' excuses. I solo tanked pretty well I think for a level 20-25 ninja but I was so pissed off by the time I left that party.

The only time I've booted someone from a party for their gear and setup was a level 16ish thf/nin with an aspir knife, a 600 delay gun and level 7 gear on. I try not to be too elitist about gear but that was just ridiculous. That knife isn't only completely unhelpful for thf, it's exclusive which means he went out of his way to kill an NM in an area where he could have easily farmed at least 5k in the time it took him to kill that NM and bought a semi decent knife.

[Karinya]

Those are probably the most significant factors, though the general improvement in characters' power levels probably has a fair bit to do with it too.

When I first joined, PLs could be found in the dunes, but were rare in Qufim and unheard of in the jungles. The general attitude of the community toward them was that they were a degrading element, something that had the primary result of pushing the make-or-break point for players, skill- and intelligence-wise, out of the dunes and into Qufim. Very few PLs were willing to PL outside the dunes, but they persisted in the dunes because the experienced players coming back for low jobs hated the slow xp rate, frequency of death-causing accidents, etc. that tend to be par for the course in the dunes. Even though there were definitely "I want my XP now!" voices in favor of PLs, and some were reluctant to see a problem with them in the limited capacity in which they existed at the time, there was a distinct anti-PL sentiment among many in the community. PLs were a truly controversial phenomenon at the time, and many worried about the impact they'd have on the community overall.
I was one of them. We were right, weren't we? People who don't have the skill, gear, and cooperation necessary to succeed in Valkurm *deserve* to fail in Valkurm, so that they can learn from their failure and improve their skills until they succeed.

Valkurm isn't hard. But it sets a minimum bar that if you can't even get over *that*, maybe you should look into a game more suited to your ability, like tic-tac-toe. Or you could just whine for someone to *make* you succeed no matter how hard you're failing on your own ability.

It didn't take that long for PLs to start appearing in Qufim and the jungles, though. It seemed to follow a somewhat predictable set of stages. First, PLing became more usual in the dunes, to the point where a significant minority of parties had them. Qufim became the new make-or-break point, with many people learning things such as skillchains, hate management, proper healing, etc. for the first time in their low-20s, because learning such things had not been necessary in their PL'd parties. Eventually, Qufim became the same cesspool of incompetence that the experienced players so hated the dunes for being. More problems, more deaths, more frustration... and more PLs. Goblin Bounty Hunter was sort of the last nail in the coffin there, though PLs were already pretty common before that ill-planned anti-RMT measure made the most popular xp camps 15-25 no longer viable without a PL. (They did eventually scale back on the GBHs' levels to the point where they're in line with xp mobs of those areas, at least.)
I think you're exaggerating the impact of the GBHs. You can't camp *in* the water in Valk, but you can still camp near it and pull all the fish you want. Qufim cliff camp was the hardest hit, but it was never as popular as the lake and tower anyway. The lake GBH is EP to a 20 - I used to solo it while lfp, it's almost completely negligible to a party. If it aggros you kill it and keep going.

Still, even with the progression of PLs into Qufim and the jungles, it was still unheard of for a long time for PLs to operate in higher-level xp camps. The community seemed to have decided that going past 30 crossed the line between low-level camps where help could be justified, and high-level camps where people needed to stand on their own.

This changed dramatically with the release of ToAU and the rise of meleeburn parties. When all existing 50+ xp camps were abandoned in the jump to the comparatively easy xp offered by ToAU camps, the line which delineated Dunes/Qufim/Jungles from Altepa/Garlaige/etc. faded quickly. All core zone xp sucked, all core zone xp camps were sub-par, and it was much easier for people to say "I shouldn't have to put up with this kind of xp rate. We need a PL to get xp efficiently."

I think the high rate of xp gain currently possible at the highest levels has warped players' understanding of xp gain generally, and made it difficult to accept or care about the nominal xp rates a party can achieve on its own in a "hard" camp, which by the modern definition is practically every xp camp before Wajaom Woodlands' Lesser Colibri.
Heh. You kids these days don't know a hard camp when it kicks you in the ass. Let me tell you about Valley of Sorrows... :D

The fact that tactics useful in lower level parties are useless in meripo is probably a significant contributing factor, but I think xp/hr expectations is at the heart of the attitudes prevalent throughout today's pre-50 parties.
I suppose that's probably a factor too. But that doesn't explain why people are *more* willing to go half-assed when they think the exp they are already getting stinks.

Edit: Whoops, actually neglected to make my main point here.

When you combine three elements of the changes that occurred over the time I've watched the community, you can start to see the nature of the shift:

1) PCs are getting better gear, better boosts, xp boosting equipment, greater varieties of ways to xp. Generally speaking, XP is getting easier to acquire.
It's not just XP - HNMs are getting easier too. It's a serious problem that SE needs to do something about before the whole game slides into trivialization. (Or maybe that's their devious master plan to capture WoW's audience.)

2) With the introduction of ToAU, party XP is done against much squishier mobs from about the 50s onward. This enhances the advantages from the first point.

3) The ubiquity of PLs in pre-ToAU camps removes much of the remaining challenge and hardship from xp gain at lower levels.

In short, the essence of the efficiency that the community strove for has changed. Originally, this game had a reputation of being the hardest, most solo-unfriendly, most cooperation-and-teamwork-requiring of any major MMORPG.
And we liked it that way!

No, really, I *did* like it that way. I played in the WoW beta and if you think Valkurm has idiots, you haven't seen WoW grouping content. The thing about solo friendly MMOs is that you can get to an arbitrarily high level and still have *no freaking idea* what a tank is, or why there should be only one puller, or even the most basic aspects of teamwork - never mind how to set up SATA or perform a skillchain or pull mobs in the correct order to get the most out of your exp chain.
Just getting to a level like 30 required a lot of effort, working with a lot of people, understanding how the game worked.
And this figured into the design of advanced jobs - you needed level 30 because in SE's mind, that guaranteed that you would have some idea how the game worked before trying to play a job like NIN, SMN, or RNG.
Aside from anomalies like account-buyers or obvious RMT, in general the competence level of players went up significantly as levels rose. The community attributed this to the harsh realities of leveling causing those who don't learn the game well to find themselves unable to progress past the dunes or Qufim. A party demanded a lot from its members because it wanted to get good xp/hr, or at the very least avoid the deaths that would seriously harm it, and a party really did need to perform well to stand a chance in the harsh realities it was operating under.

At the moment, there's little impetus to perform all that well in a lot of circumstances, or to differentiate yourself. A PL has more impact on your xp rate at low levels than whether you can perform a skillchain. In places where mobs are plentiful, many have realized just how much better in xp/hr terms it is to pick off weak targets quickly rather than take a challenging mob. As leveling gets easier, what it takes to be efficient changes, as well as the particular ways in which efficiency matters.

With such a huge variety of sources of xp, I doubt Pandora's Box can be closed in this case. It wouldn't hurt to take a long, careful look at how xp rates and caps are set up, though, and try to at least even out the risk/reward ratio.
Overall, an excellent post. However, I disagree with the last paragraph. I think a few simple reforms could go a long way.

1. Beef up the most frequently abused monster families, imps and colibri. It's obvious that they are nowhere near the challenge of another mob family of the same nominal level. More HP would be a simple starting point - all other things being equal, a mob with more HP takes longer to kill, which means you kill fewer of them in an hour and so get less exp, perhaps more in line with hunting another type of monster. Since exp value is determined principally by level, players will tend to seek out the weakest-for-their-level monsters they can find (this is why crabs were so common for so long; if you have a dispeller, crabs are nearly completely harmless), which should be countered by making monster families as nearly equal in difficulty as possible so that a variety of monster families (and therefore camps) are about equally desirable.

2. Currently there are no new exp tables for players above level 65, even though the realities of exp obviously change a lot with the introduction of high level WS, people able to use their endgame gear in exp, and perhaps most importantly, merits. New exp tables that weaken the exp value of low-relative-level mobs would balance the rewards better between massacres of the helpless (read: practically all high level exp today) and taking down fewer tougher mobs (the old moongate/Kuftal/Uleg/etc. style).

3. If spells from outside the party are cast on you *during* a fight, the caster should count as a party member for determining exp for that fight. This would drastically reduce the ways PLs can improve your exp (basically only by add/crisis control, raises you don't have to shout/wait for, and reducing your downtime by healing between fights). Anyone who's genuinely pissed at the occasional loss of exp from random people drive-by curing/buffing them can turn on /blockaid. PLs as a kind of disaster insurance or even downtime reduction aren't so bad, but when people rely on them to even win the fight in the first place, it defies logic for them not to count as a party member (when they were the freaking tank!); worse, it enables precisely the kind of half-assed "it's all cool, we have a PL" play that is now so widespread. (Or worse, asking the pld not to voke and the whm not to heal.)

4. Destroy infinite chain. It makes for funny screenshots, but it's nowhere near balanced. Either put a hard cap on chain number, or make chain timers continue to shorten (#6 is half of #5, #7 is 1/3, #8 is 1/4, etc...) until eventually they reach an amount so absurdly short that nobody can keep it up.

Let me be perfectly clear about this: I want to bring back the days when you bring decent gear, skill and coordination to your party or you die; when the difference between a good party and a bad party is who is making positive exp/hr and who spends half the hour shouting for raises. I think there's nothing wrong with a skilled party being able to make somewhat faster exp than in the past (thus exp rings, for example, are harmless: they only help you make exp if you're already making exp), but ToAU has (unintentionally?) dumbed down exp to the point that half-assed and poorly constructed parties with no tactics can still succeed when they ought to be failing hard. That's what I'm trying to reverse and bring back the days when FFXI's gameplay set it apart from other MMOs. Restricting the usefulness of PLs (see #3 above) is a necessary step to keep people from relying on them as crutches.

[TheGrandMom]

The only time I've booted someone from a party for their gear and setup was a level 16ish thf/nin with an aspir knife, a 600 delay gun and level 7 gear on. I try not to be too elitist about gear but that was just ridiculous. That knife isn't only completely unhelpful for thf, it's exclusive which means he went out of his way to kill an NM in an area where he could have easily farmed at least 5k in the time it took him to kill that NM and bought a semi decent knife.

Ditto on the "too elitest" comment. I rarely check anyone. (Just a person thing.) But if I'm party lead and someone comes the the party and I get a /t "OMG check the <person>'s equips!" or I am leary myself, then I will /check them. If I see someone coming to the party with gear that is ridiculous (like a lvl1 body on a lvl 26 whm), they are so outta there! I don't care if I have to disband the party/log off/seek, I will not party with people who blatantly are doing the most minimal to get by. I wish more people did that too.

I've been kicked from parties myself. WAY back in the day I didn't have a life belt. This was when the coffers were so overcamped by thieves it was damn near impossible to get. (And yes I tried many many times.) I was farming and saving for one but they were freakin expensive and making gil farming was slow and painful. Any party I got, in that timeframe, kicked me when they saw I didn't have the belt.

[Aksannyi]

^^ See now that's just stupid. If you're making an effort and your other gear is pretty good, why worry about it so much? On the contrary, my WAR is 60 without a Hauby, and it's staying that way (60) until I get one. Would people kick me without one? Some might, and some might not. When I dinged 59 I did not have one with me, and I was xping with friends so they didn't care, and I finished to 60 on Campaign just to get to 60. But personally I try not to level without gear that's necessary for my job. Hauby = important. Belt? Maybe not so much. Especially in a situation where they're hard to get. Remember astrals back in the day? Same thing. If you had one, awesome, but it's nowhere near a requirement.

As far as the PLing thing goes, I just deal with it anymore. 9/10 in the Dunes we can't find a healer anyway, and someone always comes with a PL. Without fail. People dual box their friends if they have to. It speeds thngs up, and I'm fine with that. Dunes = suck. I'm content to be done with it ASAP.

[Pteryx]

3) The ubiquity of PLs in pre-ToAU camps removes much of the remaining challenge and hardship from xp gain at lower levels.

It's worth adding that for me, Campaign Operations tend to act in part as a sort of "patch" for the problem of having to deal with complete idiots at lower levels -- but at the same time, they also leave me concerned that some players, somewhere, are using them to completely avoid learning anything about their jobs at all, especially if they're "just subs". Heck, even one friend of yours and mine seems to resent being pulled out to actually play on his Ninja once in a while rather than just filling his XP bar up with ops, even though it serves to get him skillups. -- Pteryx

[kaibelf]

It's worth adding that for me, Campaign Operations tend to act in part as a sort of "patch" for the problem of having to deal with complete idiots at lower levels -- but at the same time, they also leave me concerned that some players, somewhere, are using them to completely avoid learning anything about their jobs at all, especially if they're "just subs". Heck, even one friend of yours and mine seems to resent being pulled out to actually play on his Ninja once in a while rather than just filling his XP bar up with ops, even though it serves to get him skillups. -- Pteryx

I hear that they are revamping campaign to make this impossible now. It should be a nice change since far too many people so just hang out for no reason. The thing that pisses me off the most is not that they are using it to get some exp by standing around and buffing, but that one can die RIGHT IN FRONT of them, and they will continue to barfira for 20 minutes without raising you even though they are in absolutely no danger.

They can suck at playing all they want, but a little courtesy for those who are putting in SOME effort to defend an area would be a delight.

[Losrase]

It's a nice feeling, isn't it? When someone /check's you and compliments you on your gears and thanks you for caring. I also get compliments myself from time to time, and it's nice when that time spent is acknowledged.

Good luck with your Sam, I just recently started levelling mine (I'm 19 as of now) and I'm really enjoying it. ^^

It is a very nice feeling. I never have the time to farm l33t 50+ gear so I made up for it with l33t 1-37 gear for whichever job I am leveling. Granted it may take a extra week before I will start playing a job because of farming/NM camping(optical earring im looking at you!!). It is nothing better when you are examined and someone does "O.O nice gear!" followed by 4 more examines.

[Lunaryn]

I hear that they are revamping campaign to make this impossible now. It should be a nice change since far too many people so just hang out for no reason. The thing that pisses me off the most is not that they are using it to get some exp by standing around and buffing, but that one can die RIGHT IN FRONT of them, and they will continue to barfira for 20 minutes without raising you even though they are in absolutely no danger.

They can suck at playing all they want, but a little courtesy for those who are putting in SOME effort to defend an area would be a delight.

1) Pteryx was referencing Campaign Ops, not Campaign battles. Campaign ops provide small amounts of xp to any job level 10 or higher, and as such, tends to be an easy way of boosting subs that, for one reason or another, are a pain to level in traditional ways. As noted, a friend of ours levels NIN pretty much entirely this way (to be fair, he doesn't have /WAR, but he was doing fairly well in a trio with us as NIN/BLM). My alt, Koren, is also leveling NIN this way (No /WAR, no static), though I did take NIN/WAR to 40 on my main the traditional way. Lately I've been leveling my main's WHM through campaign ops as well...

2) Those are generally bots. I even died to gnats next to them once only for the gnats to start aggroing them in succession. They never stopped the buff cycles until they went down. One of them, a RDM with an Earth Staff, did finally notice he was getting nailed after several minutes, and came back from apparent afk to run. The rest never showed any sign of awareness of the situation.

[Nuriko]

I used the Campaign Ops to get levels on several jobs, mostly for specific goals (ie. I wanted to get to a level I still had gear for, or for SMN, I didn't care to solo or seek as a "second-rate healer" with PLs so prevalent) ... at least, until the Campaign change where they overran the cities. I was good with the crafting ops, but there just wasn't enough time to do more than one between battles, especially if you switch jobs.

[Ojofer]

So after all the reading and catching up I come to a few conclusions:

1) The game has changed in ways we criticized before but we've learned to cope with the reality that nobody cares about 1-37 jobs anymore unless it's your first job.

2) PL = should only be used when there is absolutely no other way to lvl simply because I prefer to learn how to use a job without having mother goose making me unstoppable. I rather learn the correct way to main heal/ tank/ dd than to simply toss a few ws out there and not have to worry about dieing. This is the main reason why endgame players are getting worse and worse every day, they come to these skill demanding events and aren't well prepared to perform adequately because they lack skill lvl or simply because they are nub 70+ players who ran around with a PL the whole way.

3) If you are actually going to lvl a sub job you don't have to over equip gears but you shouldn't go to a party under-geared and waste everyone else's time because you are lazy. Put on something to benefit your party and at least bring food to compensate for your lack of gear. At lower lvls, food is way more important than the gear you wear anyway.

4) You can't change people by simply booting them from your party, you talk to them and simply ask wtf is up with your gear (if it's stupid gear) and if they come with a real reason as someone mentioned before (no money, new to the game and don't know any better, etc) then it's acceptable and you give pointers, some new players with shitty gear are better than some better geared people simply because they actually care to learn their jobs. If they come with a stupid comment such as "I'm just here to get quick exp and I really don't care about this job" then they get the boot-ban-blacklist treatment because if they don't care about their sub job, then they shouldn't lvl it. Sub jobs are just as important as main jobs in my opinion.

I'm really happy that most people agree that there is an issue with players these days and the more experienced players should help rebuild the sense of pride we had years ago when FFXI first came out. Lets all try to do that and I agree that things might get a lot better and the Dunes can become that place where you can look back and laugh at the times you died because your gear sucked and people made a simple mistake rather than, "my PL dc'd" or "this is just a sub job so I wear lvl 1 RSE and a pebble to DD". (DEATH TO THAT GUY!!! I STILL FUCKING REMEMBER HIM!!!!)

[Effedup]

"this is just a sub job so I wear lvl 1 RSE and a pebble to DD". (DEATH TO THAT GUY!!! I STILL FUCKING REMEMBER HIM!!!!)

That would have driven me completely nuts.