Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

[Celeal]

Just a random thought.

Post level 60 WAR/BLU tank:
1. Full WAR AF (Enmity)
2. G.Axe (recently 2-hander update) and grip
3. Cocoon, Wild-Carrot from /BLU
4. Sanction-Refresh/Signet for MP
5. Break-WS or RR
6. Wide selecion combination on accessories and food

That should be a good mix on DD, Enmity, Defense and damage mitigation. Any opinion?

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Are you suggesting WAR blood tanking? Your post doesn't specifically state that you are intending to tank, but I'll just make that assumption.

I believe that most people dislike blood tanks with a passion, but I'm in agreement that the update has rather significantly improved WAR blood tanking. Most of this improvement comes from 1 DEX = 1 ACC and not 1 STR = 1 ATK. With the improved accuracy while using a great axe or polearm (piercing weak enemies), I believe WAR/BLU blood tanks should be able to do an equally good job holding hate as Paladins who rely almost entirely on job abilities and cures.

Post Lv70, I don't see many people giving this a chance, and I believe you will be better tanking as WAR/SAM with Seigan+Third Eye. However, if you can find members for a THF burn, you might be reasonably effective.

Edit: Actually you may want to experiment with WAR/BLU with an Earth Staff post Lv66 since you will get Spirit Taker. However, Earth Staff is quite weak, so your Spirit Taker may only return 80 MP @ 100 TP.

[IfritnoItazura]

Are you suggesting WAR blood tanking? Your post doesn't specifically state that you are intending to tank,
Pretty sure Celeal intends to tank... ^_-

Post level 60 WAR/BLU tank:
[...]
That should be a good mix on DD, Enmity, Defense and damage mitigation. Any opinion?

- Not sure how Def+50% would compare with shield for damage mitigation at that level. (Been tanking on BLU/WAR (Lv.21 now) on EM-VT; the effect of Cocoon is noticeable, but not exactly breathtaking, esp. on VTs.)
- PLD/WAR can typically toss out three enmity spikes at the start of the fight: Provoke + Flash + one of: Sentinel, Rampage, 300% Spirits Within, and, later on, Warcry. WAR/BLU won't be able to match that, and will require more party cooperation.
- Is Wild Carrot based on Blue Magic skill? Or just VIT/MND?
- Signet doesn't do anything for MP in a party w/out down time between fights.
- If enough healing power in party, keep up Berserk full time?
- Wanted to say something about comparing to NIN/WAR, but it's just not a valid comparison. lol. Completely different style...

[DakAttack]

It's not a blood tank if you're healing yourself with Wild Carrot, though it may not really get the job done. MP constraints would be huge.

[Armando]

Itazura: a WAR/BLU is supposed to hold hate through raw damage. +50% Defense is overkill, but that surplus of Defense means you can toss up Berserk and still keep the +25% Defense that the average tank gets from Defense food. And since that's covered, that means you can also eat meat. Slap on a Great Axe and you should be able to produce DD-level damage while having high Defense to hold hate with.

Wild Carrot is based off of Blue Magic Skill, Healing Skill, MND, and probably VIT. But WAR's MP pool isn't anywhere near big enough to support Wild Carrot, and it's not available 'til 60 anyways.

Not too keen on the idea of doing it 60+ though. WAR/BLU is best played in the earlier levels if you ask me. It could be done but you may as well sub /NIN and support the main tank by taking hate periodically.

Shields are kind of a moot point since we don't get any Size 3's 'til Lv.48. If you're going to go for the "meh" damage of a one-handed axe and the ~15% damage reduction of Size 2 shields, may as well just slap on the Great Axe and use Breaks to speed up kills and turn you and your party members into murder machines.

EDIT: In retrospect, if a WAR/BLU got refresh then Wild Carrot would certainly help post-60. Problem is noone's going to want to refresh a WAR/BLU. Part of the reason WAR blood tanking fails is because WAR doesn't have an MP pool. While a PLD and a WAR may take similar damage, the PLD's getting 80+ MP a minute plus whatever he gets in between pulls. Flash on its own is absurdly MP-efficient as it is. Then there's shielding. A WAR/BLU tank would probably be better suited with a PUP supporting with Flash and Cures, maybe even a DRG/WHM main healer to milk that MP conservation for all it's worth and capitalize on the extra damage the WAR/BLU would bring to the table. That'd be one hell of an oddball party but as long as the mob can't one-shot the WAR from 50% then it'd be ok (PLDs already cut it pretty close with Erucas but people are willing to do it anyways.) WAR/BLU + DRG/WHM + PUP + COR + (anything x2) would be pretty fun.

[IfritnoItazura]

Itazura: a WAR/BLU is supposed to hold hate through raw damage. +50% Defense is overkill,
[...]
Shields are kind of a moot point since we don't get any Size 3's 'til Lv.48.

Yes, yes, I understand the concept. The whole bit about shield vs. Cocoon is about comparing damage mitigation between PLD/WAR and WAR/BLU, not Great Axe vs. Axe+Shield.

And, the topic is about Lv.60+ WAR/BLU, so Wild Carrot is pretty important to the discussion.
Post level 60 WAR/BLU tank:

Problem is noone's going to want to refresh a WAR/BLU.
I would gladly Refresh a WAR/BLU who's using MP, but I'm a bit odd.

Edit:
Accodring to this (http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/):
Mithra WAR60/BLU30: 96 MP native, before spell/equipment.
Galka PLD60/WAR30: 98 MP native, before equipment.

WAR/BLU's small MP pool may be a problem, but likely not insurmountable. For a Mithra, at least.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The problem with MP tanking with COR and BRD in particular is unless you have like a DRK or BLU up there, its hard to justify giving a buff that doesn't present a benefit to all those on the front line. This is usually why you hear bickering from a BRD or COR that the PT should have a RDM to cover the PLD, Refresh gear, sanction etc. because its just hell to get the people who need ballad/Evoker's and those who don't need it to position themselves properly to receive/avoid it.

I will say, though, that the update made Gallant's Roll and Magus Roll situationally useful and very nicely so. I've had a bit of time to play around with them and come up with some impressive results.

I hit a PLD with Lucky #3 on gallant's in Limbus and we were on Behemoths. Hits that usually go for 200-250 were turned into 150-190 and returning anywhere from 22-50 damage on the Blaze Spike effects.

Sadly, I made some further tests and the more DEF you pile on, the less damage gets reflected. I did COR/BLU on Lesser Colibri and where I usually took 60-70 ish damage and returned 9-20 damage on spikes, but when I used Cocoon, the spikes returned like 3-6 damage.

That's still less damage taken overall, but it shows the diminishing returns of Cocoon and damage reflection.

Magus Roll I did on Bahamut in a tank PT. I was actually going to question being in a tank PT at first, but once we got a BLU in my PT, I requested the leader leave her with us.

Barfira + Magus Roll's results were extremely impressive. The other two PTs didn't even have these elemental and magic defense buffs. But damn, I don't think one of our PLDs even got into the red the whole fight. All this fire damage going around and our PLDs and even I hardly took damage.

While in terms of EXP/Merit Party mechanics COR and BRD might clash with WAR/BLU, there is quite a bit of potential for them to be impressive together elsewhere.

I once did some playing around with Minne x2 and Cocoon, dear god a naked taru should not be allowed to take such litttle damage. Its just not right.

[Callisto]

Since this is a higher-level WAR/BLU bloodtank we'd be considering, you can also include an Ethereal Earring into the possiblities. If a WAR main this is likely to be the chosen AN reward. Yes, WAR/BLU would likely have a terrible natural MP pool depending on the race, however Wild Carrot only costs 37mp a pop, and between Refresh/Ballad/Evoker's and an Ethereal that's not too difficult to sustain.

As far as getting a Refresh for the WAR/BLU, if a RDM who is worth their salt is told that a WAR/BLU will be tanking, they will Refresh them without question. And yes it can suck for a BRD or COR to land their Refresh abilities on a tank, but if the party isn't completely retarded about how they line up it isn't too difficult to land it on the tank and not the DDs.

[IfritnoItazura]

because its just hell to get the people who need ballad/Evoker's and those who don't need it to position themselves properly to receive/avoid it.
To be fair, some BRDs simply refuse to give front line Ballad, even when the front line is eager to cooperate.

One time, partying on PLD and exp'ing off Magmatic Eruca, I asked for Ballad from a BRD ("Showmo", who replaced a RDM) and asked how he wanted the frontline to be arranged, and where we should stand. I asked several times, and he ignored me each time.

Later, when I demanded Ballad (all-capped party chat) when my MP was running very low, the BRD "lol'ed" at me and claims he's a PLD75 and not used to getting Ballad. (This is after he decided to start pulling "merit style" without tell us, while the THF was pulling.)

I know most Bards are not that stupid/annoying, but I have a feeling in many parties, people who need Ballad want to cooperate more than the Bards who should be giving Ballad...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I know most Bards are not that stupid/annoying, but I have a feeling in many parties, people who need Ballad want to cooperate more than the Bards who should be giving Ballad...

I think its just that BRDs get so many overcautious PLDs that they just give up. I've PTed with PLDs that treat every PT like (1) A SATA setup or (2) as if they're dealing with a cone AoE mob, even when they're not.

This means rather than PLD placing his back to the mages, he ends up sandwiching the melee (who probably need a different buff. between him and the mages. It is so damn annoying you just eventually give up hope and assume no PLD knows how to line up, which is why even I get a bit ill-tempered when I don't see that RDM that needs to be in the PT. Plus I think its also that BRDs and CORs want to give PLDs real hate tools from thier buffs, not just be a manabucket for everyone in range. Its really depressing to BRD to just be casting Ballads, hell, people talk about how BRDs are loved for endgame and WTF is the first thing they do with them?

BLM or SMN PT.

Ick. All these phenominal melee buffs go to waste and you're made to play Manabattery/Curetank. Ew. Ew. Ew.

You can compromise on BRD and just do the three-buff cycle for an MP/Melee PT, but its harder to break it down to that on COR if the PT also nags for that EXP gimmick buff we have and then a melee buff. I just can't do Corsair's Roll for that setup and people get fussy.

Anyway, when you get the PLD that lines up, its all good. But those PLDs are soooooo rare. I'm sure a WAR/BLU would be much more eager to position themselves, but PLDs just get plain spoiled on RDMs.

[Lmnop]

Enter the almighty L-shape.

Mages . . . tank

. . . . . . . . melee

Except either the puller sucks or the tank sucks or they at least suck at working together so the mob ends up coming in from odd directions and the melee scatter and everyone swarms the mob, losing formation, etc etc.

I think my new de facto response to "I have X job at 75" will be "yeah, and you probably suck."

War/blu is certainly interesting. As for Wild Carrot... I can't help but feel that mp would be better spent on Damaging spells like Bludgeon.

[Celeal]

Sorry for the late reply, I was very busy in past couple of days.

For MP issue, how a PLD tank is going get Refresh/Ballad/Evoker is how a WAR/BLU is going to get it. As Lmnop mentioned in above post, L-Shape is the basic position for any MP-driven tanks with BRD or COR.

In non-burn parties which the mobs are not pull-and-sleep in the mid of battle, the tank can have Melee's Song during battle, and Ballad in between pulls. For my PLD, 20 or 30 second Ballad I+II every battle before it is overwritten with other songs is enough MP for my PLD to function.

For MP-driven Tank (such as PLD) in true TP burn parties, which the mobs are pull-and-sleep in the mid of battle, the amount of Tank's self-cure is proportional to how well the Tank holds hate. If the Tank (PLD) is dumping Cures on other party members who get hate, technically the main healer with Cure more effectively in long team. In other words, the tank (PLD) should spend less MP in TP-burn parties compare to traditional parties since the tank only hold hate for a short period of time.

IMHO, the sequence of WAR/BLU tank using of Wild Carrot or Healing Breeze should be different from PLD's Cures. WAR/BLU also has tools like Head Butt (with 1 DEX == 1 ACC using G.Axe), Auto-Regen (Healing Breeze + Sheep Shong), etc.

[Callisto]

IMHO, the sequence of WAR/BLU tank using of Wild Carrot or Healing Breeze should be different from PLD's Cures. WAR/BLU also has tools like Head Butt (with 1 DEX == 1 ACC using G.Axe), Auto-Regen (Healing Breeze + Sheep Shong), etc.

I was wondering about this myself, is it confirmed that the new DEX:ACC 2h ratio carries over to Blue Magic?

[Lmnop]

I suppose it's possible that it'd be different, but as of now the rule is (with no exceptions, to my knowledge): Physical Blue Magic accuracy = Main hand accuracy. So I would assume so.

[IfritnoItazura]

IMHO, the sequence of WAR/BLU tank using of Wild Carrot or Healing Breeze should be different from PLD's Cures. WAR/BLU also has tools like Head Butt (with 1 DEX == 1 ACC using G.Axe), Auto-Regen (Healing Breeze + Sheep Shong), etc.

Auto-Regen is 20 HP/min, right? That's nice, but not really a big deal at Lv.60 where a Mithra WAR/BLU has over 1100 HP. I'd rather equip spells for STR or DEX (or even VIT), if anything.

Head Butt will be accurate with A+ weapon in hand, but would the stun proc well? The damage also would likely be unimpressive, since the D rating comes from Blue Magic skill. While tanking on BLU/WAR, Sandspin gave more enmity than Head Butt, so Head Butt likely won't much of an enmity tool for WAR/BLU either, but that's a very subjective observation.

[Armando]

Headbutt Stun will hardly proc. When it does, it won't last long. It's still the third best damage spell a WAR/BLU has though (behind Bludgeon and Battle Dance.)

The DMG rating doesn't matter, it's capped by /30 BLU anyways. What hurts your DMG is that your Attack is based off of your Blue Magic Skill.

[Lmnop]

The DMG rating doesn't matter, it's capped by /30 BLU anyways. What hurts your DMG is that your Attack is based off of your Blue Magic Skill.

...and what helps is that it barely cuts into your auto attack time. It's like MP Attack, FFXI style. Spend some MP, get some extra damage, no sizable drawback.

[Armando]

Yeah, that's true. The big queston is not so much whether it helps, but whether it helps more than throwing a Wild Carrot at yourself.

[Icemage]

I've been using WAR/BLU to push up my WAR subjob the last couple of days. It's working pretty well up through level 19 so far.

Prior to 16, it was pretty worthless without Cocoon, but the combination of Provoke + Cocoon is really, really strong. It's DEFINITELY stronger than WAR/MNK at lower levels since you can basically get the equivalent of Monk's HP Bonus trait using Blue Magic bonuses.

I can't tell how good this will be later on, but the change to 2h damage makes tanking with Cocoon and a great axe very viable.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

For low level tanking, is it worth it to trade Boost for Cocoon?

Tanking on BLU/WAR, keeping the critters from my friend playing bow RNG was hard when I miss a big attack spell or two after right after first Provoke. Boost seems ideal for ensuring enough enmity generation when the big axe whiffs.

[Armando]

Can't speak from experience, but probably. Cocoon lets you use Berserk + Meat, whereas on /MNK you're using either Defense food and maybe Berserk depending on damage, or Meat and no Berserk at all. Accuracy shouldn't be an issue at all with the two-handed update and the wonders of Shield Break so you get to squeeze every bit of goodness out of the massive Attack boost.

[IfritnoItazura]

I guess I'm just an old fashion WAR/MNK fan; it's hard to give up the certainty of enmity from Boost for a "likely good enough accuracy to assume first two hits from Great Axe would land."

[Celeal]

/off topic

As for BLU tanking at from Dunes to Qufim Island, /war provoke is not even necessary. However, from my experience "Stun-Lock" using Head Butt spam and let war or nin/war or pld/war to tank is more effective than BLU tanking. When the party as 2+ BLU Stun-locking the mob, the mob is even more helpless.

[IfritnoItazura]

As for BLU tanking at from Dunes to Qufim Island, /war provoke is not even necessary.
I wouldn't be so optimistic; that depends on the DDs.

My RNG friend actually did less total damage than either BLUs (my sister and myself), but was able to take the monster away after first Provoke from time to time.

The problem is that he was pulling, which means shooting from maximum distance. If he crit hit that, and toss in another one or two 70-80 dmg /RA damage after my Provoke, he will be tanking unless I can land a big damage attack spell before that.

Without Provoke, I don't think I would be tanking much at all, unless I really burn the MP fast. Plus, he can also toss out 120+ dmg bow WS, to make tanking even worse for me. x_x;

If you have bad DDs and excellent MP recovery, sure, Bludgeon and Head Butt all the way through battle, and you won't need a Provoke. If dealing with a well geared bow RNG (or THF using SA+Fast Blade) and a moderately fast pull rate, though, Provoke is a big help, if not a must.


However, from my experience "Stun-Lock" using Head Butt spam and let war or nin/war or pld/war to tank is more effective than BLU tanking. When the party as 2+ BLU Stun-locking the mob, the mob is even more helpless.
"Stune-locking" for NIN/WAR sounds good, but other two members of my trio think partying in Valkurm Dunes and Qufim Island is beneath contempt. ._. I'm probably locked into BLU+BLU+RNG until Lv.30 or something, so going to be BLU/WAR tank for a while yet.

[Icemage]

Can't speak from experience, but probably. Cocoon lets you use Berserk + Meat, whereas on /MNK you're using either Defense food and maybe Berserk depending on damage, or Meat and no Berserk at all. Accuracy shouldn't be an issue at all with the two-handed update and the wonders of Shield Break so you get to squeeze every bit of goodness out of the massive Attack boost.
Berserk with Cocoon isn't even a concern on WAR/BLU. You can basically leave Berserk on for as long as it lasts unless you're tanking an Incredibly Tough enemy which doesn't hit the diminishing returns on Defense.

Regarding Cocoon vs. Boost/Counter, it's not quite that simple. If you're a cook like me and can make juices in the field, you can use Pollen, paired with appropriate +Enmity gears (Cache-Nez, Dash Belt, Breath Mantle) and basically lock hate on yourself much more consistently than WAR/MNK can with Boost (I've tried it both ways - WAR/BLU is way more consistent than WAR/MNK). I imagine that Wild Carrot would serve a similar purpose at higher levels, but I don't have firsthand experience on that.

I'm very happy with my ability to hold hate as WAR/BLU. Enmity bleed is minimal due to high DEF/VIT, damage is good because of 2H axes. Shield Break is godly at low levels. Easily the most powerful of the level 10 weaponskills.


Icemage

[Lmnop]

Berserk with Cocoon isn't even a concern on WAR/BLU. You can basically leave Berserk on for as long as it lasts unless you're tanking an Incredibly Tough enemy which doesn't hit the diminishing returns on Defense.
Regarding Cocoon vs. Boost/Counter, it's not quite that simple. If you're a cook like me and can make juices in the field, you can use Pollen, paired with appropriate +Enmity gears (Cache-Nez, Dash Belt, Breath Mantle) and basically lock hate on yourself much more consistently than WAR/MNK can with Boost (I've tried it both ways - WAR/BLU is way more consistent than WAR/MNK). I imagine that Wild Carrot would serve a similar purpose at higher levels, but I don't have firsthand experience on that.
I'm very happy with my ability to hold hate as WAR/BLU. Enmity bleed is minimal due to high DEF/VIT, damage is good because of 2H axes. Shield Break is godly at low levels. Easily the most powerful of the level 10 weaponskills.
Icemage

-Even with Berserk up, you have defense food-level defense.
-Enmity-wise, War/mnk can equip that stuff too
-Don't forget Signet for mp consumption pre-burn levels (which is basically every level you'd have Signet anyway)
-Shield Break is arguably the best WS in the game. >.>

That is all.

[Icemage]

-Even with Berserk up, you have defense food-level defense.
Yup. And then some. I'm finding that Defense food is a waste of time when using WAR/BLU. Attack food (rice dumplings, meatkabobs, et. al.) or enmity food (dorado sushi) seems to work much better.

-Enmity-wise, War/mnk can equip that stuff too
Oh, absolutely. But from personal experience, Pollen with enmity+ gears is way outperforming Boost for enmity gain and definitely so for enmity control since that's HP that your healers don't have to heal (and rack up their own enmity for). The trick is that you need MP for it, which is why juicing is so very important.

-Don't forget Signet for mp consumption pre-burn levels (which is basically every level you'd have Signet anyway)
Mmm... Signet's main bonus now is that resting doesn't burn away TP, which makes resting for MP somewhat viable in the early parts of a chain. Saves me some juice materials, but otherwise doesn't do much else.

-Shield Break is arguably the best WS in the game. >.>
Probably true. :P I'm also pretty partial to Tachi: Enpi in the early levels though. Great damage, great accuracy, and forms either half of the ever-so-useful Distortion skillchain.


Icemage

[LyonheartLakshmi]

-Shield Break is arguably the best WS in the game. >.>
I think the two hander changes has made Sturmwind leap frog Shield Break when it comes to GAxe WSs. With the 2H change, Sturmwind is that much more damaging, and Shield Break's accuracy down becomes less useful (provided the party is heavy on 2H DD and light on 1H/h2h DD).

[Armando]

That's assuming everyone's hit rate is over 75% though (such that part of the 20% accuracy increase Shield Break gives would be wasted.) Even then, you could start Armor Breaking in a few levels and you'd still come out winning. Half a Sturmwind's worth of damage + 33% higher Attack/Defense Ratio for everyone would be better, I think.

[Karinya]

You can compromise on BRD and just do the three-buff cycle for an MP/Melee PT, but its harder to break it down to that on COR if the PT also nags for that EXP gimmick buff we have and then a melee buff. I just can't do Corsair's Roll for that setup and people get fussy.
That's why SE gave you guns: so when people whine for corsair's roll, you can shoot them in the head. It's not like they were using their heads anyway or they wouldn't be asking for corsair's roll. :)

[cyrusblaze]

Sorry to drag this post from the depths (although its not too far down on the page) I just didnt want to create a new topic on this same thing with another one on the front page :D

I posted in General forum about something similar (among other things) and I'll be returning to the game in awhile (one i get steady internet) and WAR/BLU has caught my interest.

I'm an old fashioned WAR/MNK fan for a tank, nothing against PLD's or NIN's I just like to tank as a WAR. And with /BLU it definately seems more viable.
Caccon + various abilites, along with the new 2h weapon update (keep in mind i havnt playted since before BLU, COR and PUP were introduces so new to me is old news for you guys/gals) seems like WAR/BLU can keep up with the best of them when it comes to tanking.

I never had any issues as a WAR/MNK with a Gaxe before but with /BLU and 2H update it seems like this combo will prove to be far superior in many ways.

I was just wondering (due to lack of other posts on this subject) has anyone done aditional testing on this method of tanking? or is it still to 'iffy' for most partie to even attempt?

Unless I get alot of negative feedback I will most likely attempot this once I can play again, as I plan on Duo-Boxing (with a WHM) so relying on a fulltime healer isnt an issue with me, just curious as to how well cacoon stands against other subs or other main tank jobs (primarily PLD)

ANy additional info on this matter is greatly appreciated :D

EDIT: Also I'm aware Caccon isnt the only benfit of subbing /BLU (latent abilites, aditional skills) but form what I have seen/read it seems to be the biggest selling point of the sub.. +50% def with low MP cost and good duration.. youd be crazy not to at leats try :D

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I think WAR/BLU would make a decent tank with the right gear choices. Although people will frown upon it, especially post TOAU brats who dont even know what a "blood tank" is, and whiny WHMs who get pissed because party leader invited a Paladin instead of a Ninja.

People are so spoiled with melee/nin or nin/war, so seeing someone actually try something different is nice.

I'd like to see the results of WAR/BLU, as long as its not always going to be on "Colibri" because they aren't the only monsters in the game lol.

[cyrusblaze]

Luckily when I try thi out i will be duo-boxing a WHM aswell so i wont have to deal with the whiney WHM :D

I agree with the gear chices, as even back when i was playing (before BLU and all them showed up) I always kept 2 sets of gear on my WAR for tanking and DD as needed.

I've always been a fan of 'Blood tanking' as its my personal preferance in a tank job to play as, but if a PLD or NIN can do the job just aswell or better I will stand down, but I will always give it my all no matter what choices I make..

I just cant wait to finally get back into the game and try out this new stuff :)

[Armando]

I'm interested in seeing results from this too. Don't think I've heard of anyone that's tried it in all this time.

Might need to make your own parties, 'cuz people won't take too well to the idea of a WAR tank. They'll definitely try to get another tank if they have the chance.

[cyrusblaze]

I am more than willing to try, but i wont even be able to get the game for along time still, 6-9 months due to being stationed in Iraq and no net thats capable of playing anything online where I'm at.

Once I start playing i will definately give this combo a shot as, at leats to me, it seems like an excellent idea and would love to see how it holds up :D

Any other experiances on this are greatly appriciated as I'm always looking to learn more and reaserch before I play.

[Armando]

Well, dunno if you read a couple of pages back, but don't use Defense food (use meat, Shield Break will take care of your Acc needs,) do use Berserk, and don't touch Sturmwind (Shield Break's -40 Evasion is far superior.)

You'll never match the damage mitigation of a PLD, nor do you have as many hate tools. To make up for those shortcomings, hold hate through damage, and reduce the damage you take by killing the mob faster than other tanks. Play like you're a DD that happens to have a lot of Defense.

EDIT: Also, most blue spells will put up too little damage to be worth the drain on your stupidly small MP pool, but Mighty Strikes can put them up to par. No reason not to let loose some Bludgeons and Head Butts when you use it.

[cyrusblaze]

I figured the MP would be an issue, and Cacoon would most likely be the only skill i use, anything else would most likely be for latent effects (Auto-refrsh and stuff like that) just to give a little extra where I can.

I read the post and agree with the meat food and berserk, and planed on the damage for hate.

Back when i used to play I played as a WAR/MNK tank (when parties would allow it) and loved it and never had many issues woth holding hate from damage + voke alone :D

[Lmnop]

In 6-9 months, there'll prolly be another expansion in the works... who knows? But assuming nothing's changed, totally go for it.

Having your full time WHM buddy around, however, may somewhat skew your results. I'm not saying ditch him and make life harder on yourself... but try not to rely on him. If you're regularly losing hate to your WHM PL, you're not really proving anything... at that point, you could just be a War/Smn.

And definitely build your own parties. Your WHM dual box will help here... telling people "I have a PL" makes them care much less about your perceived "Sub-par" subjob.

[cyrusblaze]

The WHM wont be a PL, but a party meber. ;)

I'll be starting from scratc on both accounts so niether wil have any levels to start with

[Celeal]

I have partied in Dunes, with a Taru WAR/BLU tank --- He was able to tank.

I opened this post a while (last year ^^; ).... At this moment, my view on WAR/BLU is a little different from before:

For a post level 30 WAR tank (except level 74+ WAR/NIN), the healer(s) has to be very skillful. If I compare WAR/BLU with PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR, it is like WAR/BLU sacrifices self-cure or shadows for more damage. Imagine a bad PLD/WAR who does not use his MP to tank, or a bad NIN/WAR who cannot keep his shadow up, that should be the rate WAR/BLU's bleeding.

On paper WAR/BLU tank works, if and only if the healer is on-par. However, it really depends on healers. If the healer is not willing to step outside the comfort zone, the WAR/BLU tank won't work.

[Kasandaro]

I actually did tank from 24 to 34 as for war/blu for the subjob static I was in. Things I found:

* Cocoon must be up at all times. Period.
* Attack or Acc/Eva food. As someone said, Defense food is overkill.
* If you have Shield levelled, axe+board can work well. Gaxe really does rock more, though.
* Once I got a level or two into the mobs, I found I could safely blow Berserk and still laugh at the damage.
* Pollen isn't there to cure yourself; you're not a PLD. Pollen is there to annoy the mob.
* Head Butt will save you and you healer gallons of mp (especially against gobs by the Yuhtunga OP). Ditto Healing Breeze. And both will net you stupid amounts of hate.
* Bring juice. Bring fruit and water crystals and make juice. Hold a bow to the rdm's head who you know has 60+ in Cooking. Point being, you'll want a Refresh effect.

[cyrusblaze]

For a post level 30 WAR tank (except level 74+ WAR/NIN), the healer(s) has to be very skillful. If I compare WAR/BLU with PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR, it is like WAR/BLU sacrifices self-cure or shadows for more damage. Imagine a bad PLD/WAR who does not use his MP to tank, or a bad NIN/WAR who cannot keep his shadow up, that should be the rate WAR/BLU's bleeding.

On paper WAR/BLU tank works, if and only if the healer is on-par. However, it really depends on healers. If the healer is not willing to step outside the comfort zone, the WAR/BLU tank won't work.

Granted I havnt been ingame in along time but i dont think that is an adequite comparison betwee PLD Nin and WAR/BLU.

PLD generally rely on thier MP (flash and heals mainly) to hold hate and to lower the reliance on a healer.
Where as a WAR/BLU should be able to hold hate just from damage + voke + occasional BLU skill. (my 40+ WAR was more than capable of holding hate from damage and voke alone) And with Caccon and the right gear setup thier defense should be on par with PLD in DEF (without shield) Granted the WAR cant heal themselves and a reliance on a healer is needed (but not a problem in my situation)

NIN use thier shadows to prevent damage done to them comletely making a healer nowhere near as needed, but they oftne run into hate issues (especially pre-SATA) but thier DEF is rather low compared to a PLD or even a WAR so when they do get hit.. they get hit alot harder. Saying a WAR/BLU would 'bleed' as much as a NIN who sucks with shadwos just seems wrong, especially since a NINs DEF would be nowheres near as close to that of a DEF built WAR (with or without cacoon) I've found form my experiances the majority of healing needed with a NIN is that of party memebers due to the NINs unable to hold hate aswell as a PLD or a WAR tank.

A WAR/BLU is meant to get hit which is the main reason the cacoon really benfits this combo as the added defense + defense gear boosts the defense up alot as compared to a DD WAR, but they are able to crank out good DPS while being able to take the hits pretty well.
A reliance on a healer is not a problem for me as I'll always have a healer with me with my duo-box.

I know I havnt been able to try this combo out but I have read alot of information about this and I dont want to completely dismiss your opinions especially since you have some experiance with it, but the way you make it sound seems off, to me anyways. I honeslty cant come up with an accurate enough description mysellf other than a comparisoon to WAR/MNK.

I played as a WAR/MNK (tank style) up to 46ish and while i had many complaints at the start of a party (OMG no NIN!?!?!?!?!!! NUBZZ!!!) by the end I had revieved many compliments due to being a good tank with high hate capabilities. and while /MNK offered some nice advantages I feel /BLU with Cacoon offers more to my WAR-tank than what /MNK offered, although damage might be slightly less I think the added DEF more than makes up for that. That and being able to eat meat foods with little worry and possibly using berserk depending on the mob aswell.

All that aside, I appreciate all the feedback so far and if any others have additional info it would be greatly appreiciated :D

[IfritnoItazura]

Again, on paper, WAR/BLU looks great--but, in practice, it's harder to say. For me personally, the 50% defense boost on BLU/WAR was not sufficient as damage mitigation by late 30's. WAR does have better defense armor than BLU, as well as better defense skills, so it may more doable. However, there just not enough enough reliable testimonies to be sure at this point.

Don't pin all hopes on tanking well as WAR/BLU, is the idea. It may work, it may not. You'll have to try it to find out.

PLD generally rely on thier MP (flash and heals mainly) to hold hate and to lower the reliance on a healer.
PLD also have substantial damage mitigation from Shield, Flash, and a tradition of heavy armor. Not to mention enmity management job abilities like:

Shield Bash - Pretty strong enmity tool in the low to mid levels.
Sentinel - Strong enmity spike, plus doubles enmity of all action while active.
Rampart - Another strong enmity spike, plus defense boost and magic damage absorb.
Cover - Temporary take damage in place of a party member; very helpful while working on regaining the monster's attention.Where as a WAR/BLU should be able to hold hate just from damage + voke + occasional BLU skill.
"Should" is the key word. What happens when someone else substantially out damages you?

In my party yesterday (SCH37-39), the DRG/WAR did 36% of the party's total damage output (not counting his Wyvern), while the WAR/NIN (Great Axe) did only 25%. The WAR was not badly geared(*), but obviously the DRG was much better--winning both DoT and WS damages.

A WAR/BLU may not be able to output substantially more compared to WAR/NIN, especially before Bludgeon from /BLU hits cap. (Even then, it would be very dependent on Refresh--just like PLD.)

So, what can a WAR/BLU do when the monster beats on the DRG while his Berserk is up? Before Wild Carrot, the WAR/BLU can 1) Hope Provoke is up, otherwise let the DRG get beat up; or, 2) Blow 55 MP on Healing Breeze to cure 1.5 person.

As for a PLD? This is where PLD shines; at that level, a PLD/WAR can draw from any of these job abilities: Provoke, Shield Bash, Sentinel, or Cover. Chances are, at least one of those should be up, and the PLD can toss out either a Cure II or III, depending on what the DRG needs.

One may even say it's not about "should" to be able to hold the monster's attention, but a matter of "must"--because once a WAR/BLU lose the monster, the options are rather limited.

In that, it's very much like a NIN. (Oh, and both NIN/WAR as well as PLD/WAR will also have Provoke, so it's a wash there.)

(*) The WAR who was out damage by the DRG is a good player; had four different weapons ready, and gears to DD, tank, and pull. My friend speculated that DRG may have merits, on top of the winning nature of polearm weapons at that level. Not much a normal WAR can do to keep up with that, short of merits.

* * *

I understand you favor WAR tanking, but no WAR set up can match the enmity management ability of a PLD as tank; that kind of flexibility and options are just not there.

* * *

NIN use thier shadows to prevent damage done to them comletely making a healer nowhere near as needed, but they oftne run into hate issues (especially pre-SATA) but thier DEF is rather low compared to a PLD or even a WAR so when they do get hit.. they get hit alot harder. Saying a WAR/BLU would 'bleed' as much as a NIN who sucks with shadwos just seems wrong, especially since a NINs DEF would be nowheres near as close to that of a DEF built WAR (with or without cacoon)
Celeal overstated the case a bit, but there's truth in what he wrote. NIN will evade far more of the attacks without Utsusemi than WAR. In any case, on average, you'll find WAR/BLU "bleeding" more over time than NIN.

During my last session on BLU/WAR tanking T-IT (mostly VTs) monsters, I was losing over 90% of my HP bar each fight, on average. (Never even attempted to use Berserk, BTW.) Now, I replaced a good deal of that loss myself, but it was still fair amount of work for the other BLU. That's not even tanking full time; thanks to the peaky nature of RNG's output, the bats were hovering near the RNG more than I liked.

Here's what I think of Cocoon tanking vs. NIN's Utsusemi tanking:

- Cocoon tank: Substantial enmity loss from damage taken, but make it back on DD output since can use real damage food, making it a volatile climb. (Mental image: gravel road)
- NIN Utsusemi tank: Builds enmity slower, but loses it slower, too. Prone to catastrophic enmity loss such as taking large damage from TP moves while Utsusemi is down, but can build enmity smoother when done well. (Mental image: smooth tarmac--with big bomb craters here and there.)


A WAR/BLU is meant to get hit which is the main reason the cacoon really benfits this combo as the added defense + defense gear boosts the defense up alot as compared to a DD WAR, but they are able to crank out good DPS while being able to take the hits pretty well.
While I don't think it's the case that WAR/BLU can really take hits that well past Lv.40 or so, I applaud you for wanting to try. I'd love to be proved wrong, and see the return of WAR tanks.

I played as a WAR/MNK (tank style) up to 46ish [ ...] by the end I had revieved many compliments due to being a good tank with high hate capabilities.
WAR/MNK should be better at generating enmity, compared to WAR/BLU. The real test though, is how well can the party chain, and for what kind of exp/hour. So it's not about WAR/BLU tanking alone, but about what kind of party you can build around it.

(For reference, my SCH37->39 party was doing about 5k+/hour, chaining 4-5 inconsistently due to link happy beetles. That was NIN, WAR, DRG, BRD, SCH, WHM.)

[Celeal]

Another consideration is, DEF+ only works until a certain point when tanking against exp. mobs (T ~ IT+):

1) Diminish return of DEF+ and VIT+.
2) Mobs' attack that "bypass" DEF+ in practice, such as magical attack, breath attack, critical-hit ~ one-shot attack, etc.

I am not trying to discourage WAR/BLU tanking. I am trying to point out the things that may cause problem for WAR/BLU tank. PLD's cures or NIN's shadows gives *time* for the healer, and relief some workload of main healing. For WAR/BLU tank, I imagine heavy workload on the healer side.

[Karinya]

Another consideration is, DEF+ only works until a certain point when tanking against exp. mobs (T ~ IT+):

1) Diminish return of DEF+ and VIT+.
Isn't really that big a deal on things smaller than a god; by the time you hit it on ordinary mobs you're already taking low double digits. In any case, it's just as big a problem for PLD and they overcome it.
2) Mobs' attack that "bypass" DEF+ in practice, such as magical attack, breath attack, critical-hit ~ one-shot attack, etc.
Crits don't bypass DEF exactly. The others are valid, but many of the attack types listed also go through shadows leaving a NIN even more vulnerable, and/or will hit a PLD just as hard as they hit you. Again, if you're not talking about snolls blowing up in your face or Chainspell Flare, these things can be dealt with.
I am not trying to discourage WAR/BLU tanking. I am trying to point out the things that may cause problem for WAR/BLU tank. PLD's cures or NIN's shadows gives *time* for the healer, and relief some workload of main healing. For WAR/BLU tank, I imagine heavy workload on the healer side.
Possibly. I'd build it first as a RDM+{WHM, SMN or SCH} party - so that they can split heals if needed and you have a targetable refresh that won't have the awkward positional issues of trying to get MP out of a BRD or COR. Once you see how that goes you can decide if you can branch out into something with less healing power.

Don't forget, though, that there's a meat eating WAR in that party, who isn't spending half his time recasting Utsu:Ichi, in addition to the other DDs. So having more backline isn't necessarily going to lead to a slower kill rate, especially if one or more of them are also MBing.

[cyrusblaze]

@Ifrit
I understand that on paper it seems really good, and ingame it could be a whole different story, but it is something I cnt wait to try out. That and NIN and PLD have never been my style and tanking is something I truly love to do.
Granted I may have to adjust my prioriteies a bit if this combo just fails compltely (I think i could deal being a PLD more so than a NIN)
Your comparisons seem to descibe it a bit more accurate (from what I understand so far) than Celeal did, but that seemed to be more of a worst case scenario all the time as a WR/BLU (when compared to PLD and NIN)
Yours (especialy about the road thing and ninja) seems far more accurate.


I know this wont be the easiest thing to do (WAR/MNK wasnt comletely easy especially with certain groups) but its something I am willing to give a shot and see how well it really works.
Luckily (for the most part) I will have a semi-static group to level with so I can work with people I know and they will allow testing to be done to see how things really work (as compared to most PuGs who wont ever step outside the box regardless of what others say) That and having a full time dedicated (and skilled) healer at all times is a big plus for this to work.
I know back in the day before I duo-boxed at all and was leveling WAR most healers hated healing (as if it wsnt there job or something) wich I feel that NIN is partly to blame for this as now we ave (had) a bunch of healers who were babied thier whole career as a healer due to NINs (and to some extent PLDs) and never knew what its like to heal a tank.
I've come from many other MMos and tanks and healers have always been my favorite, and the typical setup was someone to take hits, and someone to heal them back up. Yes I know FFXI is alot different than alot of MMOs out there, but the basics are still the same.

As a side note my semi-static will most likley be WAR/BLU (myself) WHM/(BLM or SCH) also myself, a DRK/? and a BLM/? these 4 will be grouped up pretty much all the times with only a need for 2 additional members to have a full PT or just do the smaller group thing.
This may scew my resaults a bit as compared to a PuG, but its something I've talked with them about and they are more than willing to give this a shot. (once we can anyways)

[IfritnoItazura]

If possible at all, I'd suggest having one or more of the static member act a backup tank. (DRK can somewhat fill that role, but not optimal. )

Reading an ancient guide from JP player wanting to teach NA players, I gathered that blood tanking back in the WAR tank era wasn't done by a single person in party--his writing implied at least some part-time tanks (and probably more than one healer). That strategy would make a good deal of sense, since it'd allow Regen series of spells to work without the urgency to cure dump all the time, and make the use of Curaga efficient (if a bit dangerous).

* * *

I'm glad someone is willing to try out WAR/BLU tank with such enthusiasm. ^_^ Really looking forward to your future reports.

[cyrusblaze]

I hope that I can actually try this out in reletively short notice. I'll be 'moving' soon and the internet at this next place 'should be better (well it cant worse than what i have now anyways)

The members for the static PT are still up in the air for my friends (i've pretty much decided for myself) and its possible to have one of them take a backup tank role without too much issue.

I'm a big fan of stepping outside the box, and with a static with friends we'll all be able to try out non-traditional (ie non-cookie cutter) builds to see what things we can do and push ourselves to the limits, but most of all have fun doing so. If we stumble across odd builds that work well all the better, but being able to at least try them in a real party setting as compared to no one allowing people to test and try things is a definate plus for a static.

I agree with the refresh and the multi tanks, it does make sense (and something I tried to do with my WHM (non-duo) when I could and we didnt have a PLD or a WAR (or PLD was out of MP or anything like that)

As for my Enthusiasm, well i always try to think outside of the box, and give it my all, so this wont be like some others attempts (just a half ass one party or couple levels kind of thing) I will have the gear, food, and determination to see how well it truly works, and maybe open other peoples eyes (or maybe my own if it fails miserably) to just try things that arnt the norm :)