So RNG got stiffed (again)?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm taking it all with a grain of salt for now and assuming there's a bit of overreacting and all the tests haven't been done yet. It seems, though, that the two-hand update now makes RNG look a bit less signifigant and the introduction of Steel Bullets for COR doens't help matters.

With the damage numbers I see flying around, it makes me wonder (yet again) why RNG was nerfed in the first place. Maybe there's something coming in the next update. Maybe SE just likes to tilt the balance of power, but it doesn't seem 1 STR = 1 Attack for RNG like it does now DRK, DRG, SAM and GA WAR.

Not that I'm complaining about other jobs getting those buffs, I'm actually considering picking up DRG again, along with my BST. And I'm not exactly angered by these changes, just kinda baffled why RNG wasn't a factor since we share the high delay issue.

At any rate, I'm gonna take the silver lining side of this and look at it as an opportunity to revisit and level the other jobs I love, and selling some RNG ammo and maybe BRD stuff (while its still has value :P ) would help get those jobs started again.

I truely do enjoy RNG, but it was always kind of a fallback for my COR and now there's very little doubt COR can ever be grossly overshadowed like it once was. I'd like to devote most of my endgame time to improving it.

So I suppose RNG is on wait-and-see status. Not ready to throw in the towel, but I definately don't mind a break.

[Mhurron]

Oh thank god, I was starting to worry the world was becoming all smiles and sunshine.

[Aeni]

BBQ~

I'm sorry. But I've hated RNGs for a very long time. Through all those "glory days" that they were enjoying their limelight, I for one don't think RNGs deserve anything gewd for several more years.

But that's just a bitter DRK speaking.

[Malacite]

:rofl:


1 STR = 1 ATK now?! Is it a safe bet to assume 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy now also for 2 handers?! THAT'S AWESOME!

@. @ Also, my SAM loves this update. Dear god Gekko/Yukki/Kasha are sick now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

BBQ~

I'm sorry. But I've hated RNGs for a very long time. Through all those "glory days" that they were enjoying their limelight, I for one don't think RNGs deserve anything gewd for several more years.

But that's just a bitter DRK speaking.

Your DRK emo is duly noted. :rofl:

Its more to the end that RNG had already lost a lot, then gained a little and now seems to lose a lot of ground again. Given the Delay, the slow TP gain and the investment a RNG already places in the job, now it seems almost like we need a K. Club to barely keep up.

Its nothing against DRK, DRG or SAM, I have much respect for those that stuck with it and they deserve thier boost. They should be doing high damage, however, they not should not be exceeding RNG by a noticible margin considering all design factors. This adjustment makes the Oct. 2006 adjustment look non-existant.

Basically, if SE is going to want people to keep playing RNG, they need to address this gap quickly or start dispensing ammo on NPCs.

Again, I'm not broken up by it, I got a major boost in lots of departments on COR and so did my BST and DRG. I'd say I enjoyed all three as much as RNG. I'm not crying over all the spent gil on RNG, either, that just comes with the job. I've had fun as RNG, but its just kinda hard to feel compelled to play it after this update in contrast to my other jobs. I certainly don't mind a break from persuing RNG stuff by any means.

I'm not tossing my gear or anything, can't sell most of it since it's R/E. I got too much pride to toss that Vali's Bow anyway. :rofl:

[Dymlos]

It's great that 2handers are doing their damage, but with this update, I may just go back /War to get my damage back again from the old days. I've been meaning to lvl SAM again (currently at lv 53) and I now have a reason to level it again. I just hope in the next update SE will slighly change the formula so RNGs get their damage back (again.) But I seriously highly doubt it since S-E has this thing against RNGs being one of the top DD in the game.

Yea I hear OMG., if SAM and rest of 2handers are outdamaging us RNGs (which they shouldn't), then why the hell should I continue playing my RNG if 2handers are going to outdamage me and out shine me in damage all the damn time? To me that's just nothing but a waste of my time, ammo, and gil.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't even know if its just SE. Seems every MMORPG ever starts out with rangers and they think "since they pay to DD, they should get thier money's worth." And they should, ranged attacks are one of the most painful and grisley ways to die.

Then all the other melees come along and cry that RNG does more damage than they do and gets invited/is more desireable than they are. Yet they don't want to put in the effort and raise the funds RNG needs. And the rangers end up getting nerfed to hell. Every MMO I've ever heard of rangers get nerfed, FFXI just seems to be the most notorious for it.

But instead of really fixing two handers, it just feels like they've been given thier turn to be overpowered and will later be obscured by the complaints of MNK, RNG and other DDs.

Its just weird to me how SE seems to make all the right moves with COR and other job-specific updates, yet when it comes to something on a wider scale, they don't look at the bigger picture.

Really, the COR, BST and PUP updates are beautiful - its like every community desire was listened to and weighted appropriately, even if all wishes weren't granted, you can tell they were heard at least. So were all the DRK ones. Even all the little tweaks over time to DRG felt appropriate, even if they were sparse.

But weapons are a whole different story. Grips were a great addtion, but I think DRG, SAM, DRK, WAR and any two hand user should have been tweaked by job rather than by weapon.

Take DRG, they were given a second Accuracy Bonus trait. That's great, that alone means a good deal for their weapons skills. Changing the WS properties was also a good move. But the formulas have gone a bit too far, I think

[Omni]

im gonna start going /war on rng and mnk now since other jobs can finally pull their share of hate. i always hated going /nin for everything.

well, i was lurking around the various forums and i saw a screen shot w/ a GM and the guy was asking about the 2h upgrade. After some banter, the GM says that all these updates are to prepare for WotG. So perhaps they're just getting us used to the changes and will continue to change stuff for the new battle system (supposedly) and content in WotG.

** theres an interview on BG forums from last week at liepzieg (sp?) bercus had with the dev team and they mentioned a new battle system.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah, in the back of my head I keep thinking something like that. You can't just make an expansion that takes place within a war without ramping up things like the beastmen quite considerably. This is the CoP team we're talking about, too, they're fucking sadists.

This isn't a nerf to RNG so much as its a boost to front two-handers. Still, SE has never done a direct buff to weapons on such a wide scale. Usually when they do something to weapons on this scale, its a nerf for everyone and not a buff.

If that GM is right, SE could stand to be a bit more forthcoming and assure further adjustments in advance so people don't get too hurt by this update. The don't realize the possible damage they're doing with the ol' japanese silent treatment.

You know how people get. Players like to be spoonfed everything from the endgame scene and fucks with the entire game in so many way. The only "good jobs" for EXP are the ones in endgame. All who were lolDRG or saying "second tier" DD to SAM or DRK are now dropping thier WARs and MNKs to go level these jobs. It never fails to be amusing.

As I said, I'm seeing this more as a reprieve and an excuse to take a break from RNG and endgame in general, perhaps save for Salvage and Nyzul Isle. Just gonna wait and see where they're going with these changes. Its a good excuse to get back to other jobs.

[Skoal]

Yea I hear OMG., if SAM and rest of 2handers are outdamaging us RNGs (which they shouldn't), then why the hell should I continue playing my RNG if 2handers are going to outdamage me and out shine me in damage all the damn time?

Dunno, prolly why everyone else who never did outdamage rngs played a different job. Just jump on the band wagon and go to then next super DD. I see no reason not too since it seems all you care for is damage.

[Malacite]

im gonna start going /war on rng and mnk now since other jobs can finally pull their share of hate. i always hated going /nin for everything.

well, i was lurking around the various forums and i saw a screen shot w/ a GM and the guy was asking about the 2h upgrade. After some banter, the GM says that all these updates are to prepare for WotG. So perhaps they're just getting us used to the changes and will continue to change stuff for the new battle system (supposedly) and content in WotG.

** theres an interview on BG forums from last week at liepzieg (sp?) bercus had with the dev team and they mentioned a new battle system.


I can believe this, especially given that SE has said the following:

- The old jobs will be tweaked to be balanced with the new ones (meaning they're going to be pretty powerful as well)

- WotG will be 90% high level content.

- They're going to be tweaking the difficulty of mobs soon.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Dunno, prolly why everyone else who never did outdamage rngs played a different job. Just jump on the band wagon and go to then next super DD. I see no reason not too since it seems all you care for is damage.

I really don't have to explain "RNG pays to DD," do I? I've been on both sides of this argument, I can pull out the lame "DRG pays to DD, too" argument, but DRG is paying for a lance and some armor, they're not paying per hit and per weaponskill like RNG does. DRG can turn around and sell said lance toward a new one, RNG never gets his arrows back. One day that DRG will never buy armor or weapons from the AH again, the RNG may also achieve that, but they'll still pay to get ammo or farm/craft materials for it.

Without returns on the investments made, there's totally no point in being a DD as RNG. Those returns should be higher damage. Not just because of pay for it, but because the sheer velocity at which arrows and bullets travel - that is what makes them deadly.

And lets not forget RNG's deeper utility than other melee. RNG has the versatility of Xbow, much like THF do, but DRK and WAR tend to neglect their access. On kited mobs, we can still TP while other melees have to chase it down. I won't mention how painful it is to not have someone with Shadowbind on various occasions. RNGs and even BLM also have the luxury of dealing damage from a distance without taking damage so oftern.

So its not just about the damage, but when people stop valuing a job for its damage, they start devaluing other attributes as well. You can't tell me that DRG/Mage does not stand to gain stronger support and attention as of this update. Its one of the most downplayed sides of DRG, but now if DRG can still put up decent damage numbers with it, it'll gain a bit more respect. And things like Angon will be valued more too.

[Skoal]

And lets not forget RNG's deeper utility than other melee. RNG has the versatility of Xbow, much like THF do, but DRK and WAR tend to neglect their access. On kited mobs, we can still TP while other melees have to chase it down. I won't mention how painful it is to not have someone with Shadowbind on various occasions. RNGs and even BLM also have the luxury of dealing damage from a distance without taking damage so oftern.

Finally someone gets it. Here is one example why you should keep playing rng. Everybody is in such a blood rage over a few screens they saw of some decked out people doing some crazy numbers.

I don't care if rngs pay for damage. Since you brought drg into the discussion, I will tell you how I pay for damage. Wanna know why my parrying and evasion are capped on my drg? Its not because I leveled nin to 75. I spent my time getting all of my rare/ex gear. According to the rngs, only thing that matters is the arrows you consume. The message I am getting is you are nothing w/o throwing money at the job.

Argue all you want, I know you will. I am happy with the update. Its not so one sided like you want it to be. I have always liked playing drg. Its really no different to me now than it was on Sunday. I did and do my job well. If I get smacked with a nerf this week, who cares. I never wanted to be a glory hog and be the best dd there ever was. I just wanted to play an online game and help people out.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Finally someone gets it. Here is one example why you should keep playing rng. Everybody is in such a blood rage over a few screens they saw of some decked out people doing some crazy numbers.

Not quitting, I'm just lowering my focus on it for the time being. Only thing I can really get rid of is silver bullets at this point. I'm keeping everything else or storing it.

I don't care if rngs pay for damage. Since you brought drg into the discussion, I will tell you how I pay for damage. Wanna know why my parrying and evasion are capped on my drg? Its not because I leveled nin to 75. I spent my time getting all of my rare/ex gear. According to the rngs, only thing that matters is the arrows you consume. The message I am getting is you are nothing w/o throwing money at the job.

Our utility and damage comes from ammo, our best gear is usually of the rare/ex variety. You'll notice that the best gear for most jobs at EXP and even high levels isn't always R/E, but for COR, RNG and BST, it almost always is. This is to offset the expenses of ammo and consumables as we level up.

Argue all you want, I know you will. I am happy with the update. Its not so one sided like you want it to be. I have always liked playing drg. Its really no different to me now than it was on Sunday. I did and do my job well. If I get smacked with a nerf this week, who cares. I never wanted to be a glory hog and be the best dd there ever was. I just wanted to play an online game and help people out.

My concern isn't the one-sidedness of the update as much as it is how one-sided the community is by nature. Want to know what the first PT I got on my COR after the update was?

DRG x4 and RDM. I wish I was kidding.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Omni]

I'd have to say that a lot of the 'i dunno why rng should deserve having high damage' usually seems to come from a lot of dd that are not being objective but just feeling bitter about being passed up in the past.

I'm going to log my ammo purchases from now on just to see how much I really do spend on a regular basis.

Like kitty says, once you reach 75 you dont really change ur gear. most new gear you might get is almost free anyways (abjs, sky, sea, af2, etc) so you're done as far as spending for that job goes.

I've been 75 on rng for a few years now, and I continue to pay to play this job. I continue to pay for nin. I dont have a problem with it because if I did, then I'd stop playing it obviously. Just dont tell me I shouldn't be entitled to some good dmg dealing capabilties and that paying for job is a trivial thing just because you never played a job that requires continual upkeep even after capping out.

It's sort of how THFs feel now with this new 2h update. An AH geared melee job (which imo, is not a decked out player since most of the best equip is no AH-attainable) can now out spike a pimped out THF. Is that fair? Someone who has spent a lot of time to gear in hecta/homan is not nothing more than a glorified lucky rabbits foot.

skoal: sorry your i pay for dmg on drg by leveling parry and evasion on nin doesnt work for me. how is parry and evasion helping your dmg on drg? it doenst. its a GIVEN that you have to pay for your job to get it up to date in gear. thats not what kitty was saying. its after you cap out and gotten all the gear you want, you STOP PAYING for that job. everytime you go out all you need is food and power/oils: just like everyone else. I have nearly all the gear I want on rng but I stilll need to shell out 100k for a stack of arrows each time I go out. I highly doubt you do that on drg or any other melee.

[Hyrist]

All I have to say for all the jobs currently 'falling behind' due to this is that hopefully this means you're next on the list of adjustments.

RNG, MNK (thanks to the HTH adjustment.), RDM, WHM, BLM, SMN all could use a boost right now in one way or another. I'm sure this hasn't passed SE's attentions at all, but they figure they can handle one major adjustment at a time, weigh in on how it shifts the balance, and accommodate that in the next adjustment wave.

With at least 2 new jobs coming to add to the 18 already out, we really don't know how things are going to be impacted. BLU mage was a rather large impact when it first came out, and now Corsair has it's spot in the limelight. We've yet to determine how much of an effect the new Puppemaster Additions/Adjustments will do for them, but the game has defiantly taken several major shifts in the legacy of ToAU. I expect WotG to be the same, if not more so.

[Mhurron]

All I have to say for all the jobs currently 'falling behind' due to this is that hopefully this means you're next on the list of adjustments.
RNG, MNK (thanks to the HTH adjustment.), RDM, WHM, BLM, SMN all could use a boost right now in one way or another. I'm sure this hasn't passed SE's attentions at all, but they figure they can handle one major adjustment at a time, weigh in on how it shifts the balance, and accommodate that in the next adjustment wave.
With at least 2 new jobs coming to add to the 18 already out, we really don't know how things are going to be impacted. BLU mage was a rather large impact when it first came out, and now Corsair has it's spot in the limelight. We've yet to determine how much of an effect the new Puppemaster Additions/Adjustments will do for them, but the game has defiantly taken several major shifts in the legacy of ToAU. I expect WotG to be the same, if not more so.
No ones going to take you seriously.

[Skoal]

skoal: sorry your i pay for dmg on drg by leveling parry and evasion on nin doesnt work for me. how is parry and evasion helping your dmg on drg? it doenst. its a GIVEN that you have to pay for your job to get it up to date in gear. thats not what kitty was saying. its after you cap out and gotten all the gear you want, you STOP PAYING for that job. everytime you go out all you need is food and power/oils: just like everyone else. I have nearly all the gear I want on rng but I stilll need to shell out 100k for a stack of arrows each time I go out. I highly doubt you do that on drg or any other melee.


Whhhhoooosssshhhh.

Please reread my statement. NVM I will spell it out for you. My parrying and evasion ARE NOT DUE TO THE FACT THAT I LEVELED A JOB THAT IT IS EASY TO SKILL THESE ON. I do not have nin @ 75. I got both of these leveled from soloing while I was seeking party. This is how I paid for my road to 75. I didn't level the coolest job in town. Not every rng has leveled rng just because its the cool thing to do. All I hear is "I pay money to play my job so it should be the best.". Its no surprise that rangers have to buy arrows. Its kinda known when you first start playing the job.

I will never stop paying for my job, no one will unless they quit. Sure you pay more than I do but you get benefits I don't. My initial post wasn't a drg vs rng like OMG made it out to be. She finally made a good point about rngs that other dd's couldn't do. That was my goal of that post and it worked.

Its easy to look down on other jobs that were beneath you in damage and other capabilities. It seems really easy to say that other dd's were jealous and now its your turn to not be top dog.

Please if you are gonna insult me make sure you read what I wrote. I try to do that for everyone I am having a discussion with.

The thing I am still hearing is that the more money you have the better a rng will be. Is rng such a braindead job that all you have to do is through money at it?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I will never stop paying for my job

Explain this because, with the exceptions of food, sneak oils and prisim powders, you will eventually hit an end at your spending for a melee job. Tonko and Shehei don't even really count.

Its easy to look down on other jobs that were beneath you in damage and other capabilities. It seems really easy to say that other dd's were jealous and now its your turn to not be top dog.

There shouldn't be any "turns," only balance. If you think there should be a "turn" you're haboring some resentment toward RNG, WAR, MNK, BLM and some others. And other DDs were jealous, other DDs did complain. But they did not realize the staggering difference in the investment RNG takes and what they bring to the table.

Its not that we think we should be outdamaging you by a wide margin, but we should be a couple steps ahead because we can't simply take that arrow and resell it.

The original problem with RNG is that Slug Shot and Sidewinder ignored all defense penalties. That meant that there was no real distinction between a RNG that used scorpion arrows and the RNG that used Kabura or Silver bullets.

When the nerf came and mob DEF vs STR/Attack equations were changed, RNG could no longer use Slugwinders to ignore mob defense. By itself this reduced some DD output, but in time RNGs discovered that /WAR made up for the loss. However, the accuracy portion of the new ranged formulas did not account for food and gear, making RNGs a lot less accurate than they were supposed to be.

The Oct 2006 update changed that, not only were positioning requirements made more flexible, food and gear were once again recognized in all damage and accuracy equations for RNG. This meant those that skew to NIN are more accurate than ever, and those that /WAR deal more damage. It didn't bring RNG back to pre-nerf status, but it closed the gap of what was lost quite considerably.

Trends on fighting T and VT mobs made it hard for us to stand out, though, so any WAR or MNK could output similar numbers to a RNG in Damage over time vs RNG's damage bursts. RNGs are like DRK and SAM, we're spike damage dealers, we don't build TP quickly, but we deal our damage in big bursts.

But don't simply equip and weapon in hand and get that damage, we pay for that damage with each and every shot. Not even COR can say that, they can actually get away with a little sword melee here and there between Slug Shots, but they can even collapse into a full support role if they want to.

RNG can't do that. We have our utilities that no other jobs can bring, but we still are defined by our damage in the end.

The thing I am still hearing is that the more money you have the better a rng will be. Is rng such a braindead job that all you have to do is through money at it?

Is DRG such a braindead job that you can hit attack and go AFK? Statements like this do not help people see things your way.

Look at the history of what's been done to RNG and look at what needs to be done to play the job well. At the end of the day, an RNG's ability to do well will be determined by how much he's spent on ammo because once you run out of ammo, you're nothing. And if you invest the millions of gil and countless hours in endgame and now do less damage than an AH-geared DRK, how is that fair?

Let's compare BRD and COR for a moment, because this is a reasonable comparison.

A poorly geared BRD with level 1 RSE and a level 1 flute could output stronger buffs than a COR when they hit a lucky number or 11. SE originally designed COR hoping players would invite jobs that would let CORs HQ thier buffs to be comprable to BRD songs.

I didn't work out.

If I was hitting anything less than 9,10 or 11 on Chaos Roll, a gimped 75 BRD could outpace my on Minuets. Granted, "luck" is supposed to be COR's theme, but if I hit a 7 on Chaos Roll, it shouldn't have been like rolling a 2. Since the principle of Phantom Roll is actually blackjack, the higher non-lucky values I hit, the better my rolls should be because Blackjack is all about getting as close to that win as possible without goin over the limit.

And now, Phantom Rolls have been rescaled. Now a poor BRD can't outshine good COR completely.

That's balance.

And lets look at the jug pet adjustment for BST. Longer pet duration means BSTs get some of the reliablity DRGs and PUPs enjoy from thier pets. That's balance.

[Mhurron]

Just because you spend more on a job compared to another does not mean you should do better then any other job.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Just because you spend more on a job compared to another does not mean you should do better then any other job.

Like hell it does. There is no point in creating any consumable items in a game if they don't grant an advantage.

Here LET ME SPLAIN in mage 4 u 2 undrstnd:

BLM consumes vast quantities of mana to deal big damage. But does BLM get to wear heavy armor and carry big heavy weapons? No, they don't. To offset thier great power, they are physically weak and frail. To recover this mana, BLM has to rest for set amounts of time.

RNG consumes vast quanitities of items and gil to deal big damage. Dos RNG get to wear heavy armor and carry big, heavy weapons? To offset this great power, they have weak defenses and low evasion. RNG can make thier ammo last, but to recoup expenses, they must devote large amounts of time to making gil.

DRK, WAR and SAM all get heavy armor, heavy weapons and now get to do heavier damage. They don't have to rest to restore their big damage or go out and farm to replace it. They just keep swinging that two handed weapon and get TP back.

To clarify, yes, a DRK or SAM may spend time farming to get a new weapon, but they can use that weapon infinitely. RNG cannot, resources must be replenished. As beautiful as a Vali's Bow is, its all kinds of useless without ammo.

[Mhurron]

Like hell it does. There is no point in creating any consumable items in a game if they don't grant an advantage.Unless thats how the job is played.

That is, unless you just play whatever job the bandwagon is behind.

[Omni]

Skoal: Every single one of your points are based on the bitter drg mentality. I dont blame you, I really dont.

I dont care about being top dog, because last I checked, rng hasnt been top dog for quite some time. I dont care for your insecure epeen comments about rng vs drg vs drk vs wtfever. Just dont tell me I'm not entitled to dishing out some good numbers because I pour 100k just to play my job every time I do a sky/sea/dynamis run. While you on the other hand have been using the same equip you have been for the past months even years.

You still dont see the point me and kitty are trying to make. Equip upgrades are STANDARD. everyone has to deal with them however, consumables are not. Only a few jobs deal with consumables to actually be effective.

If you'd like to continue putting your foot in your mouth with statements like:

The thing I am still hearing is that the more money you have the better a rng will be. Is rng such a braindead job that all you have to do is through money at it?

then be my quest. This thread was never really about oh no, we arent top dog dd anymore because we havent been ever since the nerf a couple years ago. You're just making this into another drg vs everyone who has done more dmg than us ever.

I will never stop paying for my job, no one will unless they quit. Sure you pay more than I do but you get benefits I don't. My initial post wasn't a drg vs rng like OMG made it out to be. She finally made a good point about rngs that other dd's couldn't do. That was my goal of that post and it worked.

Its easy to look down on other jobs that were beneath you in damage and other capabilities. It seems really easy to say that other dd's were jealous and now its your turn to not be top dog.

You just contradicted yourself. You say its not about that but yet, thats how you feel...

If you can just get off your bitter drg rant for 1 second, you might see what we are talking about.

taru edit: i dont mean to insult but if you tell me again that you're paying more to go do a run in sea with ur drg than it is for my rng im going to give up on you :)

[Skoal]

Is DRG such a braindead job that you can hit attack and go AFK? Statements like this do not help people see things your way.

You are the only one that made this about drg. My question was more a rhetorical one then a stab at rng like yours was. My question was meant to be answered by someone who knew that my obvious question was an open door for a flood of reasons why people should still use rngs. Instead I get attacked for being a drg because I am not spending money all the time.

If some people would stop going into these rages and take a step back and look at this discussion we would get more done. I come here and give you a softball on how rngs still shines and all I get in return is (like every other time) drgs don't deserver damage. Maybe someone with a level head will give us some reasons why rngs still shines instead of attacking people who ask questions.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Unless thats how the job is played.

That is, unless you just play whatever job the bandwagon is behind.

Quiet, damage dealers are talking right now, maybe when you grow up and become one, you'll understand.

we arent top dog dd anymore because we havent been ever since the nerf a couple years ago.

Bolded for Truth. Its not exactly like RNG has had a hideous advantage in the EXP/Merit scene - which is all anyone seems to care about these days - DRG, SAM and DRK have been about even with RNG in that regard.

The ranged attack cap for ranged weapons is generally higher than that of the standard forms of attack, but now the two-hander adjustment makes it seem like even that small advantage doesn't exist.

If some people would stop going into these rages and take a step back and look at this discussion we would get more done. I come here and give you a softball on how rngs still shines and ...

"He speaks so well."

[Skoal]

You're just making this into another drg vs everyone who has done more dmg than us ever.


I really don't want to insult you but its clear how one sided you are. You have put me into a stereotype because drgs were looked down upon for many things. My first post had nothing to do with drgs. I understand it gets confusing seeing Cid as avatar and a drg in my sig. Maybe you got all that crossed up. There is no bitter drg rant. I come here and have always tried to be helpful with all my posts. They are two ppl making this into way more than it should be, Omni and OMG. I promise if you read everything I have written with a level head, you will understand what I am saying.

I could care less about the update, all I really want from it is a new grip. I understand you guys are fighting mad. I just would appreciate you two not attacking me for what job I am. I understand that you are bitter for spending trillions of gil on your job to be good everytime you go out and play. ONCE AGAIN, I was trying to open up a discussion. Insulting people for what job they play is pretty pathetic. Putting someone in a category just because they play a certain job is probably one of the dumbest things you can do. To you drg=bitter. Stereotyping people in a game is pretty LOL worthy.


I just read what what OMG wrote about Mhurron. Here we go again with talking down to people for what job they play.

Edit:
taru edit: i dont mean to insult but if you tell me again that you're paying more to go do a run in sea with ur drg than it is for my rng im going to give up on you



Lol at you guys and your editing. I never and will never claim that I spend more money than anyone. It may have come out wrong but my intentions weren't to claim I am better than anyone. I hold no ill will towards anyone whether I was insulted or not. I just ask to not be labeled as something because of the character I play in a video game.

[Omni]

I'll stop. I think this isnt going anywhere because we dont see eye to eye on things so instead of continuing this ever so pointless argument i'll just try to go back on topic.

BTW: I didnt label you skoal. I know completely well what drg are capable of and why they werent picked up in pts. I've said before that its great they get this boost along with every other 2h job. However, if dropping a 3000+dmg penta in northern thickets isnt a bit overboard and borderline ridiculous then i'm not sure what else to say. No other job has been able to drop 3000+ dmg like that on xp mobs before this update... I think the update was in the right direction but just a tad bit too much.

Has anyone tried going /war on rng since monday to see how hate is shared now? The only place i was able to go /war was in mire because shit there dies so quickly. I'd be able to take 50% of a mobs health with slugwinder. Anywhere else, like northern thickets, I'd be eating dirt with my 900 taru hp.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I really don't want to insult you but its clear how one sided you are. You have put me into a stereotype because drgs were looked down upon for many things. My first post had nothing to do with drgs. I understand it gets confusing seeing Cid as avatar and a drg in my sig. Maybe you got all that crossed up.

No.

There is no bitter drg rant. I come here and have always tried to be helpful with all my posts. They are two ppl making this into way more than it should be, Omni and OMG. I promise if you read everything I have written with a level head, you will understand what I am saying.

Did you ever read the original post? I don't think I could be more levelled headed about the matter, I'm just noting the disparity between what has changed and what hasn't. You don't even care about the change or what it does, so you don't bother to take notes.

I could care less about the update, all I really want from it is a new grip. I understand you guys are fighting mad. I just would appreciate you two not attacking me for what job I am.

There's a difference between using something as an example and interpeting something as an attack because something you identify with was used in said example. You fired the first shot there, I fired back showing you were setting a poor example for your argument. Hitting auto-attack isn't all your job does and neither is mine all about spending gil.

All we have does try to make you understand investments and returns. Explain why I should pay more than other jobs to do less damage output. You can't do that and make any sense.

[Omni]

All we have does try to make you understand investments and returns. Explain why I should pay more than other jobs to do less damage output. You can't do that and make any sense.

odd, im agreeing with what kitty has to say for once. :wtf:

[Callisto]

I honestly don't see how RNG is 'nerfed'...maybe I missed something, granted I don't have a great knowledge of what the S-E implemented 'RNG nerf' back in the day entailed. I do routinely see RNGs dealing out a whole shit-ton of damage, firing 1500+ weaponskills like it's nothing at all. I only played RNG up to 37 so I don't know how it is endgame, but it really doesn't seem too far behind any other DD jobs when I watch them in merit parties. Yes, you don't get extra damage relative to the amount you spend on ammo...but you also aren't shelling out for Haubys, Scorpion Harnesses, Bomb Cores, Speed Belts, Black Pieces, Sniper's Rings, Forager's Mantles, Haguns, Barone/Hydra pieces, and Mezraqs. Your consumable costs are certainly much higher, but gear-wise RNG gets off pretty easy, as most of the best pieces are rare/ex, or not more than a couple hundred thousand gil.

[Mhurron]

Because they (actually only really seen OMG cry about it) can't be number one by a big margin, they cry.

The ranged attack cap for ranged weapons is generally higher than that of the standard forms of attack, but now the two-hander adjustment makes it seem like even that small advantage doesn't exist.Remember if it wasn't a *BIG* difference, RNG was nerfed.

[Eauijhkuu]

It's sort of how THFs feel now with this new 2h update. An AH geared melee job (which imo, is not a decked out player since most of the best equip is no AH-attainable) can now out spike a pimped out THF. Is that fair? Someone who has spent a lot of time to gear in hecta/homan is not nothing more than a glorified lucky rabbits foot.




Fugee-la-la

And...bingo.
But you know, that's the awesomeness that is Square-Enix.
And while it might sound extremely bitter, I'm quite sure it is because of the high lack of good DRG, SAM, and DRK, that S-E had to make it to where the vast majority of those players can practically pack larger numbers to compensate for their horribly kitsch playing abilities, and only elevating those players who understand how to play their jobs correctly.

Thusly assumed, can we now say that those who chose to stick to their LV75 THF are considered something of a hardcore breed? Because we have never hit for much DoT wise to begin with. Inferring to the antics would only seemingly place us further down the bottom of the DD totem pole as far as utility and damage dealing are concerned, save the PUP (but obviously uncertain as of late) Those of us that do have good sense do actually buy ninja tools and spend our money on stacks of bolt quivers, and exerting a great deal of time to acquire Rare/ex items that actually benefit our job greatly (Since an AH THF, while skilled, is usually always lacking)

So no.
It's obviously not about the relationship between Gil and Damage output.
Because I assure you that I spend about as much, if not close to, as a Ranger probably would on Ammunition. (Yes I use both Arrows and Bolts, and sometimes even Throwing)

And it's not wholly about time spent either, because it pains me to think that I have to push for a good month or so to get an awesome body piece through assault points, vs. a job that has never done an assault in a great while.

But I think more importantly to the reasoning as to why you even play the job that you do is because...you are actually passionate about the job you play and could care less if another DD outdamages you because they were programmed that way through a bias scope?....

Nah; That just sounds way too much like a romantic.

I guess I completely only play THF because I couldn't give a flying flip about any other job's performance over my own (Insert random Non-conformist opinions here); I am most confident to say that I play the job quite well, and possibly better than a SAM or DRK main ever would or could. And cool if it brings bias to the job since other jobs can outdamage it; People always seem to let new fads cramp their style for a bit, until they get tired of it and jump to something popularly 'efficient', of which you'll probably notice the waves fully and effectively stirring with the release of the new expansion.

[Callisto]

I think the AH vs Rare/Ex argument only works on some jobs. Yes, I'd want my THF using Heca pieces for WS swaps to crank out massive #'s, and a RDM to have several AF2/Sky pieces. At the same time, if I had to choose I'd sure as hell want my SAM/RNG in Hachiman pieces and my DRK in Black pieces, and maybe I'm wrong but I don't see a ton of R/E pieces that can match those.

Besides, I've learned from experience that absolutely any fucktard can get Sky pieces and AF2, hell they seem to dominate endgame from what I've seen. On the other hand, I don't know a lot of DRKs that can earn and save up 4-5m for a Black set without being a good player.

[Eauijhkuu]

I know I'll step on alot of people's toes (You can go read my rant personally as far as the almighty plethora of THF abjuration selection goes)

Hecatomb can only do so much for a dual weaponed job. Even in macroing, there is not mighty benefit from swapping gear that gives you +Crit% or +ACC or +Double and or Triple attack gear. Or unless you're lucky enough to find someone's lost Mandau.

But of course, a DRK in Hecatomb will actually be somewhat of a god now.

Why is this?

Because of the WS% that are geared to them.
Which is practically the only reason SAM can dish out so much damage now since Gekko, and Kashi are like 75% STR.

That. +Double Attack. +SA. And all that gear that designers give them as far as Store TP, STR+, and ACC+ goes, gives them a very keen edge as far as Damage Dealing goes nowadays.

Tho...I never really did see what was wrong with them making skillchains two years or so ago.

[Omni]

Because I assure you that I spend about as much, if not close to, as a Ranger probably would on Ammunition. (Yes I use both Arrows and Bolts, and sometimes even Throwing)


I highly doubt that. I truly do, because 90% of the time you are engaged you are melee-ing. I'll give you 10-15% of the time trying to land your acid or possibly regain some hp with bloody bolts. If you shoot as much as you say you do, you're pretty much negating one of THFs best attributes: TPing fast. THFs TP pretty damn fast to 100 so if you're busy doing that, you're not shooting.

I'm not saying you dont spend money on ammo at all. I've played THF also so I know that you -can- go through ammo but it is no where near the amount a rng goes through. So I think your account is a slight exaggeration.

According to FFXIAH.com for remora:

Acid bolt quiver x12: 13,000
Bloody bolt quiver x12: 25,000
Blind bolt quiver x12: 25,000

Kabura quiver x12: 150,000

Sure, you might spend the same amount of gil initially but get this, those 36 quivers of bolts you just bought llast you a mighty long time. By the time you finish off all of your first purchase, I would have gone back for my 3rd helping by then.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I honestly don't see how RNG is 'nerfed'...maybe I missed something, granted I don't have a great knowledge of what the S-E implemented 'RNG nerf' back in the day entailed. I do routinely see RNGs dealing out a whole shit-ton of damage, firing 1500+ weaponskills like it's nothing at all. I only played RNG up to 37 so I don't know how it is endgame, but it really doesn't seem too far behind any other DD jobs when I watch them in merit parties. Yes, you don't get extra damage relative to the amount you spend on ammo...but you also aren't shelling out for Haubys, Scorpion Harnesses, Bomb Cores, Speed Belts, Black Pieces, Sniper's Rings, Forager's Mantles, Haguns, Barone/Hydra pieces, and Mezraqs. Your consumable costs are certainly much higher, but gear-wise RNG gets off pretty easy, as most of the best pieces are rare/ex, or not more than a couple hundred thousand gil.

When the nerf happend RNG lost a fraction of the damage was lost. Before that nerf, Sidewinder and Slugshot completely ignored level difference penalties. RNG got the ability to do that again later with Flashy Shot when it was added as a merit ability.

What made the nerf bad, though was not the loss of damage, we could sub /WAR and pretty much make up most of what we lost. We lost accuracy in a big way and SE left that to sit for a year and a half. As I said before, the way ranged attacks and weaponskills were calculated post-nerf did not factor in the RNG's equipment or food like it should have, so missing WS became more common. The problem with that is RNG gets quite a few Accuracy Bonus traits, we're supposed to be the kings of accuracy and we couldn't land vital shots anymore.

The October update addressed this issue and accuracy was practically fixed. We also got some damage back.

What happened with Monday's update was not a nerf to anyone, but it wasn't exactly scaled to balance out with WAR, MNK, RNG, PUP and THF. The two-handers definately should have had better damage than they once had, but this is overkill.

If SE wants people to play this game or stick with the jobs they've invested time and gil into, they need to let people know thier jobs are getting scaled in a timely fashion. I don't care if they intend to update RNG in a month or two months or by the time WotG is out, just let us know what the plan is.

People keep wanting to find a complaint in my posts, but my OP was really just more bewildered than angry. I think its all kinda too good to be true and will be rescaled pretty soon or other jobs will be scaled up.

I mean, let's just look at what else changed on a job level:

DRG gets 2nd Accuracy Bonus Trait
COR buffs scaled up, new bullets
BST loses EXP penalty, jug pet life extended, additional way to regen pet HP
PUP gets a WHM and BLM frame.

While I like DRG and COR a lot, the BST and PUP changes really stick out to me. Up until now SE has sometimes contended these jobs are for soloing, but these changes clearly make them a little more favorable to PTs and Alliance play.

I think SE is priming BST to be a crowd-controller for some future content, the potential had been there forever, but we've not really had but a handful of high level camps where they could capitalize on it. In WotG I don't think that potential can even be ignored.

With these new PUP attachments, PUP now has some room to be a healer/DD hybrid. If the Soulsoother frame proves to be as effective as I think it could be, PUP is a DD with a free backup healer. They might not still be a great DD, but that's a boost to versatility that cannot be denied.

I think more big changes are coming, but SE just needs to be a bit more forthcoming because in the meantime, its shifting the currenty balance of the game to a different extreme, but ultimately the same problem as before.

Again, I already am getting PTs where its Job x4, its just this time its DRG or DRK instead of WAR and MNK. I was sick of that song back when I was levelling BRD with RNG x4 half the bloody time. Hell, I've never even been in an arrowburn on my RNG save for one ISNM60 run.

Job x4 is a plague to this game and it needs to fucking stop.

[Legal Fish]

Ranger could use some more utility in my opinion. It doesn't look likely they will be able to be the top DDs again(not to say they aren't great, they are). Something that would make up for the fact they spend gil for their damage.

Like getting boosts in ammo status effect accuracy... perhaps nearly to the point of 100%(or at least comparable to a mage's spell).

More Damage or useful job abilities as well.

Straight damage isn't the answer imo.

[Callisto]

LoL, I was about to say something along the lines of Shadowbind that did other effects, like Sleep. Then I was like oh yeah, they call that Quick Draw. :wasted:

[VZX]

RNG is already losing to other job before this 2h patch in TP gain potential.
We don't have haste, we only have shitty lol6%snapshot, and lolrapidshot.
Melee got what? 60% haste from gear, 2xmarch, haste? not to stack with double attack triple attack at once. We just lose in that departement

WS damage is the only thing we proud of. But now, seeing how 2h easily replicate those number, I never understand those who say RNG don't need a buff

Give us double shot trait, Give us haste, even 50-75% effectiveness, it's still good.
Give us more ratk gear.

/rant off

[Akashimo]

<_<; Let's look to the main points I've noticed on this thread.

1)Job x4 is a plague as BBQ said.
2)Jobs that depend on one handed weapons are beyound overshadowed now
(War doesn't count cause they got just about every weapon access now)
3)The shear power 2Handers got with /thf now -.- Making thf main look like a joke.

1) I seriously loathe being in these setups on whm and rdm, it just wasn't what makes me enjoy the job. I leveled them cause of how they used to before this massive burn craze. For their uniqueness, not just shell out mp cure whores.
2)Mainly thf, pld, whm, mnk, brd(as a dd), are gonna suffer cause of these formula changes. I've spent the last two days just to see my average parsing by eying. Whm with staff hands down beats my mnk, thf and whm with clubs DDing on lesser colibri and spiders. Its only 60 skill levels under cap mind you, yet I have more acc and higher weapon dmg out put that with the other one handed weapons at thier peak. With exception to spike damage from weapon skills. Its just driving me insane.

3) Now add in a drk/thf, sam/thf, war/thf or drg/thf and SATA. EASILY out does the best dd quality of what thf can do main with daggers or swords. Nothing, gets on me more than seeing someone using my main job of choice subbed and easily out does it when they don't even get the SATA modifiers. Thf shouldn't be out down in this fashion cause they're really like what other threads are coming to pass, just a glorified TH. I love being a thf, enjoy soloing, spending time pulling in dynamis, watching smn mobs wiff me. I'm not in it for the gear, sure its nice, but gear hunting is nothing but headaches for me. But when it comes to get exp back and merit to do better when soloing or helping with nms, ect, and it just sickens me to get over shadowed so easily cause of anyone can /thf and take my only DD quaility from me. Pulling for exp/merits is left in the hands of those annoying merit mob hording bards that can just whip of elegy and lullaby, so yeah... uhg. Only real updates I've seen for thf has to be the Assassin job trait and the dagger dmg changes, but nothing else. Every other job got something new and fancy changes, be nice if they weren't used to monopolize on what makes thf good, impossible to gauge just from subbing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

LoL, I was about to say something along the lines of Shadowbind that did other effects, like Sleep. Then I was like oh yeah, they call that Quick Draw. :wasted:

Exactly.

[Eauijhkuu]

Sure, you might spend the same amount of gil initially but get this, those 36 quivers of bolts you just bought llast you a mighty long time. By the time you finish off all of your first purchase, I would have gone back for my 3rd helping by then.

lol. Doubt w/e;

I go through these things in like a matter of days. I spam bolts for TP, pulling, and hitting things (like Faust) w/ /range. But as one would assume that when you do see THF, they don't use ranged attacks at all while fighting ~ I do, all the time.

And yeah it's very much hyperbole in the sense of making a moot point, but I'm a say that a good majority of my gil goes towards Ammo (Have you noticed the price of Paralysis Arrows, and the other 2 bolt quivers that I do use as well? :P ), Food, and tools.

I believe strongly that a good player uses every tool that he's given; That's what I intend to do irregardless of what I parse vs other jobs.

[VZX]

I believe strongly that a good player uses every tool that he's given;
I believe strongly that a good player uses tools that he's given properly

I have seen a lot of people with good gear, even with swap. That setup still fail for that specific purpose

[Legal Fish]

LoL, I was about to say something along the lines of Shadowbind that did other effects, like Sleep. Then I was like oh yeah, they call that Quick Draw. :wasted:

Well, job abilities would be nice, but I was also talking about status effects from arrows(or bolts or bullets) having extreme consistency when a RNG uses it. (Maybe require MND+ and Magic Accuracy or something? but not a lot... barely any).

[Dymlos]

VZX, it's kinda hard to be good at RNG in this situation:

Ranger uses Sidewinder, mob takes 1000 damage.
Melee uses SATA, Melee uses WS, mob takes 2500 damage.

Kinda hard to being a DD when this crap happens every single freaking time!

Edit: I forgot who said this, but what SE needs to do is make Snapshot an actual progressive Job trait for Rangers since it's disgusting how we don't get haste except for a lol6% snapshot merit. If SE won't give us a progressive trait then up the merit to 5% per merit so we can at least get basic haste of 15% fully merited. 6% is a f'ing joke.

What they could also do is add an exclusive ranged attack bonus progressive trait which would stack with WAR's attack bonus. I would want to see this trait start hitting at 38 so CORs don't get it and outshine.

[Mhurron]

VZX, it's kinda hard to be good at RNG in this situation:
Ranger uses Sidewinder, mob takes 1000 damage.
Melee uses SATA, Melee uses WS, mob takes 2500 damage.
Kinda hard to being a DD when this crap happens every single freaking time!

But everything was ok when the situation was reversed right?

[Dymlos]

Did I ask for RNGs to outshine when others with SATA? No I didn't. I do want to see that our dmg is closer to what it could be when 2handers use SATA/WS combo. Especially since they have the added affect of SATA + Berserk + Warcry while all we get is Berserk + Warcry combo.

It's to where 'oh we don't need you RNGs for DD, we got our 2hander friends here. We just need you for our COR. Thanks!

Rangers: >=[

[Mhurron]

I also don't recall any RNG complaining that it wasn't fair when no one could touch RNG damage either, so it must have been fine. As long as you have the advantage everything is fair right?

[Dymlos]

Oh, so it's okay for 2handers to do a shit load of damage, with buffs for free, while rangers have to pay out of our pocket to do our damage that's now only a fraction of what 2handers can do? I'm sorry but that's BULLSHIT.

[Mhurron]

Oh, so it's okay for 2handers to do a shit load of damage, with buffs for free, while rangers have to pay out of our pocket to do our damage that's now only a fraction of what 2handers can do? I'm sorry but that's BULLSHIT.
RNG pay because thats the job. You may pay more then a lot of other jobs but don't be stupid and believe that just because you do doesn't mean you're paying to be better then anyone else, you pay to be better then YOU were before.

If the damage done by 2h weapons is so damn outrageous it won't last.

Just because RNG relies on consumables DOES NOT MEAN RNG SHOULD BE ANY BETTER THEN ANYONE ELSE ON EVERYTHING.

[Skoal]

Maybe you rng's got your wish. Check out the news on POL.

[Sevv]

So rng forums is the new alla drg forums?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

So rng forums is the new alla drg forums?

Seems like it, all the DRGs came out to argue.

Except LilithAngel and Vyruru, who wouldn't troll anyway.

[Skoal]

I was never trolling. I play more than one job also. Your ignorance to pigeon hold someone because of the job they play has led to the arguing.

[Sevv]

Seems like it, all the DRGs came out to argue.
Except LilithAngel and Vyruru, who wouldn't troll anyway.

I said alla boards >.>

My question is has anyone actaully gone firestaff and compared damage per hit vs 1h weapons? Not that it really matters since they are planning adjustments aka nerf bat go!

Lilith is probably busy playing with her drg in sea alone lol.

[Dymlos]

Skoal do you have a link for the news on POL? I tried to look for it but didn't see anything.

[Skoal]

Look in the 8/27 update thread. I don't have it right now.

[Sevv]

or look mhurron posted the news

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I said alla boards >.>

That's why I said every DRG came out to argue. Alla is for arguing.

The RNGs here have been doing little but pointing out the facts, other people have been trolling. Especially a certain RDM.

Really, if nothing was wrong, WHM wouldn't be beasting MNK in staff damage right now :P

But let's be honest, I think out of all the jobs in the game, the one that stood to lose the most here was THF. Even if they tone down the damage to be more evened out with what WARs and RNGs were doing or partially exceeds it, the update has show just how deeply in need THF is for an adjustment.

Any job can sub THF and totally replace THF, its been a complaint for years, but now its so obvious it can't be ignored much longer.

[Sevv]

ill make my post on the topic in a bit, afk making meatball sub!

[ifandbut]

Oh, so it's okay for 2handers to do a shit load of damage, with buffs for free, while rangers have to pay out of our pocket to do our damage that's now only a fraction of what 2handers can do? I'm sorry but that's BULLSHIT.

I completely agree. And it does not have to be a damage advantage, it could be acc or something. I remember leveling my Hunter in WoW and having near 100% acc while my melee friend would be lucky if he had 50% acc. It was not because I had better gear or was lucky, it was because I had to pay for gear/weapons/AMMO while my friend only had to pay for gear and weapons.

Besides, if you think that using consumables should not give you an advantage then I think Utsusemi could use a big nerf, also nerf Ninja enfeebles so they stop overwriting RDM's. Hell, without the consumables advantage we would only have one real tank job in the game.

[Eauijhkuu]

Yet another meager justification of price relation versus combat performance.

It's becoming extremely kitsch.

How much time/money you dedicate to a job is not near equivalent to the damage, accuracy, etc, that your job should get. It's just not going to happen. You should practically accept the responsibilities of your job and do it to full completion, without necessarily expecting a WHM to outdamage a SAM (because that's not necessarily the purpose of the job, but I'm sure deep down WHMs want to DD as well...Kinda like Freud's theory of male vs female genitalia)

On that scale, is it effective when you have people of the same job, and one job is buying|accumulating more than just gear, while the other is just whoring an AH?

Please. Seriously. That's not even a tittle of reasonable argument to think that you're the only job that has to constantly spend gil for items that enhance your performance.

[Taskmage]

Turns out the discussion is pretty moot for now: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/news-ffxi/67911-current-known-issues-aug-30-a.html

2-hander damage at the moment is "incorrect." Possibly best to wait and see how the balance actually turns out.

[Sevv]

So wow this thread was ummm constructive. I couldn't read past page 2 because I wanted to find and slap half of you. Let us look at the update in whole ok.

Your primary 3 big jobs were War, Mnk, Nin for dd's.

mnk-> had pdif screwed over now really can't keep up with the best gear, and yes this means Black belt, shura, haidate, osode, etc.

nin-> Still a good tank doesn't out parse most of the melee at this point.

war/nin-> is still good for the high dot and rampage damage, but very easily out parsed by war/sam with gaxe.

War/Ridill-> Has been outparsed fully merited by unmerited drgs, drks, sams.

I remember bbq was one of the people at the fore front of the nerf tp burns, well started as nerf nerf nerf, then moved to on par.

You all feel rangers got the shaft hard, the truth is rangers did not get nerfed. They stayed the same as before, you may be thinking why didn't rangers get buffed along side two handers. Well ranger isn't a two hander, yes they can use staff, I also don't know of any ranger who tested it out. You have to test with a staff looking at ws and per hit damage, because ratt is not a stat you can see.

Ranger pre-update was still one of the most lethal damage dealers in endgame. This is mainly why they didn't get a big boost along side the two handers. Of course you are going to get shit from 2h about wtf get over it, rng still puts up impressive dot and ws #'s without the boost.

On the pay for ammo part, if you argue you pay more for ammo so you should be the top dd, please quit ranger. You shouldn't be playing ranger because it deals the most damage and you pwnz all the nubs! You should be playing Ranger because it is what you enjoy. Ammo costs where known when you signed up to level the job, if you leveled the job because of arrow burn pts then you are a bandwagon rng, like people who leveled war for tp burns. Rangers did not get hurt by this update, and the two handed weapons are going back into check somewhat the update was far too much, 1.0 instead of 2.0 was insane but so fun.

A small side note:

BBQ if you want to attempt to say drg is a brain dead job again I will call you on it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yet another meager justification of price relation versus combat performance.

It's becoming extremely kitsch.

The power that Utsusemi gives players in general is hardly something I would consider "meager." Players willingly spend for the defense it provides and if it was taken away from players, the uproar would be much, much larger than it ever was for any particular job.

How much time/money you dedicate to a job is not near equivalent to the damage, accuracy, etc, that your job should get. It's just not going to happen. You should practically accept the responsibilities of your job and do it to full completion

Have you even been reading what the RNGs here have said? We dedicate ourselves to each aspect of this job when it comes to obtaining gear, just as much as any other good player in any job would AND we are willing to spend for our damage. However, we are not willing to spend to do signifigantly less damage than other jobs.

Let's look at the checks and balances of other jobs for a second here

A NIN's paper-thin defenses exist because of the defensive power they gain from Utsusemi.
SMN can command the power of gods and they give up a ton of HP for a load of MP to do it.
RDM is able to do everything decently, yet they excel at nothing but enfeebling and enhancing.
A PLD must sacrifice most of his potential damage output in order to protect his allies.
A WAR deals big damage with the threat of taking damage directly in return.
BRD and COR empower thier allies at the cost of being completely reliant on said allies.

Thusly, RNG and BLM gain power in exchange for frailty, much like SMN does. A BLM is dependant on RDM, BRD, COR and equipment to ensure they can keep those nukes coming. A RNG is dependant on his gil and craftings skills to keep that ammunition coming. This is why they rightly deserve the power they weild and they work no less than other jobs to get thier power.

If a RNG overplay his hand, he's sure to die almost instantly, just like the BLM that overnukes.

BBQ if you want to attempt to say drg is a brain dead job again I will call you on it.

Jesus Christ, upteenth time, IT WAS AN EXAMPLE, M'KAY?

[Omni]

...

i dont think op said we got nerfed, just left out. considering that typical rngs drop 1000-1500 sidewinders while penta now does 3000+ on g.colibris. i think that's being left out but not nerfed.

people are mistaking being omitted and being nerf as the same thing. its not.

anyhow, looks like the 2h update -was- off. im sure it'll be better but not ridiculously crazy like it is currently.

what urks me even more is that where the fuck are all the qa people before they released this patch? its not like this isnt something that you cant easily and readily test!

[Taskmage]

what urks me even more is that where the fuck are all the qa people before they released this patch? its not like this isnt something that you cant easily and readily test!This thought goes through my head a lot. Hey guys, I've got a deal for you. I could have a job and you could have a game that isn't broken.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

...

i dont think op said we got nerfed, just left out.

It was my mistake, I assumed people had reading comprehension skills. I was wrong.

[Sevv]

The power that Utsusemi gives players in general is hardly something I would consider "meager." Players willingly spend for the defense it provides and if it was taken away from players, the uproar would be much, much larger than it ever was for any particular job.
Have you even been reading what the RNGs here have said? We dedicate ourselves to each aspect of this job when it comes to obtaining gear, just as much as any other good player in any job would AND we are willing to spend for our damage. However, we are not willing to spend to do signifigantly less damage than other jobs.

Yes the update was needed but it was over done. Rangers still do even with this update great damage. I have seen some amazing slugs/winders/barrages pre this update that would make people go O.o. This update actaully gave rangers more chances to go /war or /sam because with 2h doing alot more damage it evened the playing field of hate. Some of the rangers in my linkshell loved this they can go all out do similar damage to the two handers and stay alive.



Let's look at the checks and balances of other jobs for a second here

A NIN's paper-thin defenses exist because of the defensive power they gain from Utsusemi.
SMN can command the power of gods and they give up a ton of HP for a load of MP to do it.
RDM is able to do everything decently, yet they excel at nothing but enfeebling and enhancing.
A PLD must sacrifice most of his potential damage output in order to protect his allies.
A WAR deals big damage with the threat of taking damage directly in return.
BRD and COR empower thier allies at the cost of being completely reliant on said allies.

Nin-> I can get my defense to 600
Smn-> Any mage willing sacrifices hp for mp.
Rdm-> They still excel at something, a better thing would be giving up specialization of white or black magic for use of both.
Pld-> on point
War-> died 10 times in sandy ; ;
Brd/cor-> More true for brd then cor



Thusly, RNG and BLM gain power in exchange for frailty, much like SMN does. A BLM is dependant on RDM, BRD, COR and equipment to ensure they can keep those nukes coming. A RNG is dependant on his gil and craftings skills to keep that ammunition coming. This is why they rightly deserve the power they weild and they work no less than other jobs to get thier power.
If a RNG overplay his hand, he's sure to die almost instantly, just like the BLM that overnukes.

Pretty much on point but I still see it more of the check of rng's power being gil. Just my opinion.



Jesus Christ, upteenth time, IT WAS AN EXAMPLE, M'KAY?

I didn't read past the 2nd page, this would be why I didn't rant on it.


...
i dont think op said we got nerfed, just left out. considering that typical rngs drop 1000-1500 sidewinders while penta now does 3000+ on g.colibris. i think that's being left out but not nerfed.

If you were talking about e saying nerf, I didn't quote bbq on it saying bbq said they got nerfed. I was talking more in general to the many rangers I have seen post and talk about in general. If i don't quote someone I usually talk in general.


people are mistaking being omitted and being nerf as the same thing. its not.
anyhow, looks like the 2h update -was- off. im sure it'll be better but not ridiculously crazy like it is currently.

Agreed.




what urks me even more is that where the fuck are all the qa people before they released this patch? its not like this isnt something that you cant easily and readily test!

You know that dev team thinks AV is very easy to beat, and can do it in Af. They probably tested it and sai ya it is fine.

It was my mistake, I assumed people had reading comprehension skills. I was wrong.

You have been around long enough to know we don't!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Pretty much on point but I still see it more of the check of rng's power being gil. Just my opinion.


Not all of us just level NIN as sub and call it a day, though. We put in just as much subjob work as most melees do. A "complete" RNG would want /NIN, /WAR, /SAM and even /WHM before calling it a day. I still have /SAM to work out, but only because I find it horrifically boring to level.

Regardless of the re-adjustment, still gonna take a break from RNG to enjoy COR, BST, DRG and PUP changes. I'm extremely burnt out on the sky grind and ground bullshitting. Merged with an LS recently, was only supposed to be sky and Limbus and then they started hanging grounds over us and wanting to fill each hour of each day with an event. Ick. Then they started giving people grief for not logging on for HNMs.

Um yeah, my friends have jobs. I'm looking for a job. Making money to keep, you know, my home is kind of important to me, just like my Taru NIN buddy's wife and his responisilities at the hospital are more important. Boo hoo if I'm not there to help you get your BB, Ridill or Defending Ring.

I might not have been willing to plunk down gil to do less damage, but I'm even less willing to plunk down my gil on people being asshats to my friends. Maybe that's just why I was slightly more pissed about this update to 2H.

[VZX]

I also don't recall any RNG complaining that it wasn't fair when no one could touch RNG damage either, so it must have been fine. As long as you have the advantage everything is fair right?
RNG still got the damage potential
2hander have the same potential, but now they can obtain it easily on top of their haste effect

RNG need more ranged attack and potent haste. And probably accuracy fix. I don't feel my accuracy high enough.
That's it.

[VZX]

war/nin-> is still good for the high dot and rampage damage, but very easily out parsed by war/sam with gaxe.
War/Ridill-> Has been outparsed fully merited by unmerited drgs, drks, sams.
I remember bbq was one of the people at the fore front of the nerf tp burns, well

Where did you get this news?
The only 2 handers that I see as "broken" is SAM.
It feels slow when WAR switch to GAxe, regardless they can eat 6% of mob HP in 1 hit.


You all feel rangers got the shaft hard, the truth is rangers did not get nerfed. They stayed the same as before, you may be thinking why didn't rangers get buffed along side two handers. Well ranger isn't a two hander, yes they can use staff, I also don't know of any ranger who tested it out. You have to test with a staff looking at ws and per hit damage, because ratt is not a stat you can see.
Ranger pre-update was still one of the most lethal damage dealers in endgame. This is mainly why they didn't get a big boost along side the two handers. Of course you are going to get shit from 2h about wtf get over it, rng still puts up impressive dot and ws #'s without the boost.
We have shitty DoT

[Sevv]

Not all of us just level NIN as sub and call it a day, though. We put in just as much subjob work as most melees do. A "complete" RNG would want /NIN, /WAR, /SAM and even /WHM before calling it a day. I still have /SAM to work out, but only because I find it horrifically boring to level.

Where in all of my posts did I say rng/nin onry, you take no time for subjobs?

I can sub almost any job In the game, because I took the time. I <3 rng/war and rng/sam personally not a big fan of rng/nin.


Regardless of the re-adjustment, still gonna take a break from RNG to enjoy COR, BST, DRG and PUP changes. I'm extremely burnt out on the sky grind and ground bullshitting. Merged with an LS recently, was only supposed to be sky and Limbus and then they started hanging grounds over us and wanting to fill each hour of each day with an event. Ick. Then they started giving people grief for not logging on for HNMs.

Exactly play the way you have fun, cor got such a huge boost along with beast, you should be able to have some real fun.


Um yeah, my friends have jobs. I'm looking for a job. Making money to keep, you know, my home is kind of important to me, just like my Taru NIN buddy's wife and his responisilities at the hospital are more important. Boo hoo if I'm not there to help you get your BB, Ridill or Defending Ring.

I have been to 2 fafnir claims and 2 ridill drops over here, my group has seen like 5 ridills a bunch of n heads and some nidhoggs. They way my ls is if I don't want to go I don't have to it works great.


I might not have been willing to plunk down gil to do less damage, but I'm even less willing to plunk down my gil on people being asshats to my friends. Maybe that's just why I was slightly more pissed about this update to 2H.

You are not doing less damage tho... less in terms of certain jobs but ranger damage remains unchanged.


RNG still got the damage potential
2hander have the same potential, but now they can obtain it easily on top of their haste effect
RNG need more ranged attack and potent haste. And probably accuracy fix. I don't feel my accuracy high enough.
That's it.

Haste doesn't effect rangers delay. So what you are asking for is arrowburn only right?


Where did you get this news?
The only 2 handers that I see as "broken" is SAM.
It feels slow when WAR switch to GAxe, regardless they can eat 6% of mob HP in 1 hit.
We have shitty DoT

All 2h math is broken, sam is by far the most broken tho.
Use gaxe in my tp setup and you can see how slow gaxe isn't.

I forgot holy bolt damage dot is shit, let me piss on rngs while they down right?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sev, the Snapshot merit ability is Haste for RNGs. The problem is that its just not enough and standard forms of Haste don't affect ranged attacks to start with.

I could pull out my Loxley bow, but that's not quite the haste we're looking for. Not to mention its lower WS damage and eats arrows like cotton candy. Its for sensitive pulls, that's about it.

As for Holy Bolts, maybe your HB damage is crap. I almost proc 35-40+ extra damage per shot now.

[Omni]

lol. Doubt w/e;
I go through these things in like a matter of days. I spam bolts for TP, pulling, and hitting things (like Faust) w/ /range. But as one would assume that when you do see THF, they don't use ranged attacks at all while fighting ~ I do, all the time.
And yeah it's very much hyperbole in the sense of making a moot point, but I'm a say that a good majority of my gil goes towards Ammo (Have you noticed the price of Paralysis Arrows, and the other 2 bolt quivers that I do use as well? :P ), Food, and tools.
I believe strongly that a good player uses every tool that he's given; That's what I intend to do irregardless of what I parse vs other jobs.


Yea i do doubt that. Funny how you pick Faust as your example because who the heck wants to melee on faust? so thats youre only option is to tp with rng atk.

What of in dynamis or merit? you dont tp off rng attack thus you wont be using ammo more than an rng does. Again, quite an exaggeration.

You're right about a player using every tool hes given but thats not the point we are talking about. You made a statement about using just as much ammo as a rng. I just called b.s.

You're also missing another major point about the whole I spend money to deal dmg. For a rng, I need to spend gil to do my best attacks. I cant rely on my dagger or axe skill to do any worth while dmg. For you however, ranged is a choice. You choose to use ranged more than other thfs. great for you BUT, you still have your bread and butter: the dagger.

If I dont spend money on arrows and bullets I'm useless. You arent. Do you see the difference? Yes I chose this job and yes I like it. However, most ppl think ppl who play rng must be rich to just throw gil on consumbles. not really the case. Some rng (and at times I've been in this boat) barely get by on ammo. So you what do you say to the poor rngs that still continue to play their job?

[Sevv]

Sev, the Snapshot merit ability is Haste for RNGs. The problem is that its just not enough and standard forms of Haste don't affect ranged attacks to start with.

Reread my post, I know normal haste doesn't effect ranged, I tell 1 mage a party when I am rng to stop wasting mp.


I could pull out my Loxley bow, but that's not quite the haste we're looking for. Not to mention its lower WS damage and eats arrows like cotton candy. Its for sensitive pulls, that's about it.

I have a loxley bow, But think if you could shoot that fast with ebow how broken it would be. <3 love loxley bow for fun tho lol.


As for Holy Bolts, maybe your HB damage is crap. I almost proc 35-40+ extra damage per shot now.

Hey bbq direct that to the person who said rangers have no dot, I was the one who used holy bolt spam as the dot example lol.


To Omni: I agree no one spends as much on ammo as ranger, because rangers are the only ammo focused dd. A good thief will be using xbow for tp because it helps, also cor can rack up a big bill as well. Also rangers can spam the kraken bcnm to kraken for tp and just slug/winder

[Omni]

Ya, sev, gimme one of your 4 kclubs ok then ill stfu about anything rng related :)

[Sevv]

Ya, sev, gimme one of your 4 kclubs ok then ill stfu about anything rng related :)

Lol sure too bad i sold them actually going to try for 2 more, 1 to sell and finish off two crafting mules, and one for my rng.

Didn't mean to make it sound easy, but my friend who only merits on rng and plays it as a main job just realized form 63-> to last week could have bought 3 k clubs lol.

[Omni]

ya i got about 3 moon orbs worth of seals that im gonna spend on kc bcnm. 0/~15 so far.

[Malacite]

Why did SE lower detonator's fTP by 1? (Saw this on blue gartyr forums)

WTF... like RNG hasn't been shit on enough? The 2 handed update is glorious, but they seriously don't need to nerf ranged attacks any further or they're just going to make it pointless.

[Dymlos]

On the pay for ammo part, if you argue you pay more for ammo so you should be the top dd, please quit ranger. You shouldn't be playing ranger because it deals the most damage and you pwnz all the nubs! You should be playing Ranger because it is what you enjoy. Ammo costs where known when you signed up to level the job, if you leveled the job because of arrow burn pts then you are a bandwagon rng, like people who leveled war for tp burns.

I for one leveled Ranger way when they were in godmode because I love being Ranger. I love being the person who attacks far away. When they implemented the 'distance damage' calculations I liked it since to me, it makes logical sense! Even after the nerf we had, I stuck by Ranger and put up with the crap. Why? Because I love doing my job.

Sure it sucks at times that I become broke but it's okay since I know it comes with the territory. I wouldn't have such a huge fuss about this update before the fix if the 1 STR = 1 RATK was included with the 1 STR = 1 ATK also. Let's also mention the fact how I was hoping Emp/Detonator wouldn't suck so much after the update so I would have WS options besides Slugwinder. But since it does even less damage now, I'm truly stuck using Slugwinder for my damage.

Now, I do have one freaking question for SE. When the hell are we gonna get Haste for our ranged attacks?

[IfritnoItazura]

When they implemented the 'distance damage' calculations I liked it since to me, it makes logical sense!
Made no sense to me at all; seemed completely artificial.

Self-propelled ammo aside (i.e. missiles with rockets), I can't think of a single RL ranged weapon which would not do same or better damage at point blank than from 100 meters away. Point blank is always better accuracy, to boot.

I think the way S-E should've implemented it is to have drastically increased enmity from range attacks, but add an enmity reduction based on distance (since the critter would be less sure what hit it and from where.) Also, severely reduce evasion, parrying, shield block, and defense during the "aiming" motion--it takes a bit of concentration not to shoot one's own foot, and the aiming motion/posture isn't great for protecting one's head or torso.

That way, Rangers who like to stay in melee range would risk getting their face eaten, while those who are stay far away would have less enmity and probably less accuracy.

* * *

It's kinda sad RNGs are completely left out of Haste. Maybe Haste can be changed to affect ammo load time, or S-E can add trait and equipment for some sort of "ammo loading mastery".

* * *

Don't know much about archery and crossbows, but isn't the idea for bow and arrow to speedily launch multiple fairly inaccurate missiles with fair amount of mass behind each for penetration power?

And, crossbow is about launching of one high speed but lightweight missile at a time, with less mass but much better accuracy, but taking a much longer time to reload?

Seems like Bow/Arrow should be fast and inaccurate, while Crossbow/Bolt should be slow but accurate. Instead, we have slow bows and acc+ arrows, and fast crossbows with no acc bolts...

I don't really see why STR should affect ranged damage as much either; certainly should make no difference when it comes to guns. Instead, how about higher STR and AGI shortening "ammo loading time" for crossbow and bow instead? (Use DEX and AGI for modifying gun ammo loading time instead.)

[VZX]

Haste doesn't effect rangers delay. So what you are asking for is arrowburn only right?
Wrong
Good job jumping into conclusion.

All 2h math is broken, sam is by far the most broken tho.
And I hope you actually know what's so broken about it.
Use gaxe in my tp setup and you can see how slow gaxe isn't.
Gaxe is still slow. /NIN still got the speed and high resolution damage
I forgot holy bolt damage dot is shit, let me piss on rngs while they down right?
Blame your wrong setup for holy bolt

[Dymlos]

Only reason I could see STR modifies damage (for bows only) is how strong you are when firing the arrow. But that's just a theory/guess and I'm most likely wrong. Honestly I see AGI more of a modifier for damage rather strength.

[Armando]

In real world archery, assuming you're not using a compound bow, your strength determines how powerful a bow you can use. Higher strength = higher resistance bow = arrows get shot harder.

Not that it really matters that much considering that daggers use the same damage formulas as axes and fists, etc. etc.

[Caspian]

Wow, totally missed this thread during my hiatus.
I'll try and say my two cents without inciting a flame war.
Post fix: Damage is still great. I'm glad 2h'ers were thrown a bone. Its about time.
However, it sucks as a rng because now every other 2her's dmg is exactly the same as mine, or more. I don't begrudge the other job's nice new damage, just wishing we (and even moreseo, thf) weren't overlooked.
It sucks when you're doing assaults with friends, and the pld using g.sword is doing the same dmg you are. People make the argument that we are constantly paying for our damage (and we are), but also don't forget the fact that damage is all we do. A paladin with g.sword can now do the same damage as me (sans barrage on a 5 minute recast), but also tank and cure. We're a one trick pony and now all other jobs can outdamage us and still do their other things (SAM's can ws like mad still and drk's still have magic, too). We don't do magic, we don't buff or enfeeble, and our defense is shit to say the least. I think the only reason I haven't been kicked from my dynals is because RNG is my only job until I finish out SAM and they need someone to help shadowbind ying and yang at SL.
Anyway, again, I'm glad other jobs were given a much needed boost, just down that we were kinda nerfed by proxy. But hell, atleast they didn't actually nerf us again.
But hell, nothing much to do but wait and see what they pull out in WotG.

FYI, part of the reason the pld was keeping up with me is that my rng isn't as well geared as I would like. I don't play much atm, and I still need an Osode, CFG, scout socks, and an Ebow. (Atm I'm struggling to keep up with costs of dyna once or twice a week.)

And guys, dont renew this flame war b.s. Just let us get out our discontent and move one. We were once the golden children, now it seems like we're the unwanted stepchildren.

PPPPPP.S. I'm sure everyone knows by now, but I saw it brought up and didn't pay close enough attention to see if anyone responded. Using a fire staff or other 2h weapon doesn't catapult our damage. You get an extra couple damage from the str and r. atk., but thats it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

RNG was actually something I just incidentally leveled alongside COR because the gear worked out so well, I had only leveled it as a sub and ended up enjoying it at this was while it was still "nerfed."

I'm really hoping that these 2H updates mean WotG mobs are actually going to be ramped up considerably and jobs like RNG and THF will also get hooked up in forthcoming updates. The adjustments to PUP, COR and BST were very signifigant and worthwhile changes, I can't just think they gave us all those updates just to address long-standing issues

Dancer specializing in Daggers makes me hope THF is especially getting buffed because they've totally fallen behind, even further than RNG.

As far as RNG goes, if SE is going to notch up COR's ammo, I'm hoping that means RNG is due some higher grade ammo, because they've been using silvers and Kabura for years now. While I love COR, they should not be getting close to RNG numbers.

[Omni]

They need to release new bolts.

our last bolt is at 50... darksteels are great bolts but the fact that theres no high lvl bolts is kinda disappointing (save gmb). it doesnt even have to be dmg bolts, status bolts would be nice. some evasion down bolts, paralysis bolts, attack down bolts would be interesting.

rng could be more useful other than just pumping out slugwinders.

[Caspian]

I'd still love some def. down arrows. Yeah right, though.
Surely something is coming later this year. And yes, THF is majorly hurting. I think we try and have one thf for every party in dyna, but obviously its all for TH. The last update they did in boosting base dmg of daggers was huge, then they essentially negated it all with this update.
Nerf by proxy will get you every time.

[Machaveli]

Ok, I'm probably going to get bitched at for resurrecting this 1-2 month old post, but I can't help myself.

First off, to all you people who think "there was no ranger nerf" and the like, you really don't have a clue.
After the ranger nerf, ranged accuracy was totally & completely BROKEN.
As a ranger, I have 4 r.acc+ traits that add around 40 r.acc (I know it's not exactly +10 for all of them). I also had a TON of R.acc+ gear. With the most being around +80 r.acc. I also had to use Sushi.

Now, when out fighting very tough mobs, I got, at best, a 75-80% accuracy rate, while EVERY other DD in my party was netting 85-95%. Someone PLEASE tell me how that is "functioning normally" or "as intended"?

Sure, I'll agree that the ranged damage calculation was broken. Ranger damage isn't, and never really was that bad. The problem was that we all were totally decked out in R.acc gear trying DESPERATELY to maintain some decent accuracy in our attacks & weapon skills, but we were fighting a massive uphill battle. One that we could not win until SE FINALLY fixed r.acc calculations not too long ago. Now we can finally put on the STR & R.atk gear (wha tlittle there is) to improve out damage. I can usually keep up DoT-wise with most thanks to my v-bow, but I can't tp as fast as any other job because of Haste.

Melee's get haste in sooooo many ways. Tons of gear, Haste spell, March songs. Then you add in double attack skills/gear. Rangers have nothing like this. None of this even slightly effects us and how we fight. If it did we'd be able to keep up just fine with other melees. It'd also show you the difference between a good and a great ranger.

Notice I never said, not once, that rangers should do more damage. I don't think they need a damage boost. They do it well enough. We need more utility. We need more ways to improve our performance. What good is a 1500 damage ability that you can only use half as often as someone who has a 800-1000 damage ability? The latter will always win when it comes to total damage over time.

Now to my other concern: THFs that think they have to spend anywhere NEAR as much as RNGs do on ammo. Eauijhkuu you really don't understand. You're not a RNG, so I can understand a bit, but honestly, your ammo consumption rate doesn't come CLOSE to a RNGs. In a single, decent, 2hr party I will consume (on average) 10/11 STACKS of ammo. Before I took a break in April I was spending 330,000 gil PER PARTY. The fact that your ammo lasts you days is a blessing. I go through it in mere hours. Now, that being said I can't thank Altana enough that a full stack of Demon Arrow quivers is only ~45k. That's a resonable price. And don't get me wrong, I feel for a THF. They're really looked down upon in the merit/exp party game. It's sad that certain jobs are shunned as they are and I wish it didn't happen.

In the end, all I ask for is a party invite. I don't care that much about more damage, accuracy, utilty... I just want to be able to put my flag up and get a party like everyone else.

But I can't. You know why? Cause there's stigmas on the RNG job. Some true, some not. But we're not bad DD. But our performance can't be artificially increased like all the other DDs in the game. If they could, maybe things would be different. All we can really do is wait and see.

So in the end I have to end up on the bandwagon if I want merits/exp buffers.

[/rant]