Early results on PR adjustment

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Credit goes out to Hubris on KI for testing this and doing the little GIFs. Most CORs have reported similar findings thus far and having gone over them myself as soon as I logged in, I can confirm this results to be pretty accurate.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/smkm/EvokNum.gif

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/smkm/DrkNumbers.gif

If you didn't hear it, that was the sound of a princess BRD's level 1 flute breaking.

[LilithAngel]

Hawt damn... This'll put to rest the whole "Corsair can't keep up with Bard in XYZ Event/Situation" argument for certain (of course, said individuals who were nay-saying in the first place were perfectionist "must have 25k/hr or no pt" princess-job asshats anyways).

Just as soon as I can ding 72 Blue Mage, I'mma need to bust out my Corsair again (BLU is too damn addictive, and I wanna rock my Phantom Fleuret already; that, and get out of the 60s again).


Of course, I also need to play around on Dragoon now. :thumbsup:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah, more or less, what's happened is that certain rolls have move the original value of 11 down to "lucky" and scaled the buffs in power more reasonably.

So Chaos Roll at 11 without a DRK is just a tad shy of Minuet x2, but the duration naturally exceeds a BRD's songs. Chaos Roll 11 + DRK blows Minuet x2 right out of the water.

[tdh]

This might also mean DRKs will get more invites. "OMG!! Get the COR and the suck DRK! I want 40% ATK bonus!!"

I don't like COR being able to exceed Refresh or double Ballad, but what can ya do?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't like COR being able to exceed Refresh or double Ballad, but what can ya do?

er... did you even look at Evoker's Roll?

What changed there was actually very minor.

They left 1-5, 8 and 11 are just as they were before. They scaled 6 and 7 up to 2MP a tick, which is what it probably always should have been given how all rolls scale upwards with the exception of lucky and unlucky numbers.

10 now matches 5 at 3MP a tick.

As for exceeding refresh, Evoker's Roll pretty much always has done that to ballad and refresh where 5 and 11 are concerned. Phantom Roll has a five minute duration BRD and RDM can't really match.

[LilithAngel]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Corsair population on most servers start to slowly rise in proportion to a roughly equal decline in Bards over time, especially as people start to recognize Corsair's more mage-centric abilities, and see that they're giving Bards a serious run for their gil in the melee realm now.

[Aksannyi]

This will make my husband happy, DRK invites won't suck quite as much anymore.

I've never understood the COR hate anyway, they've always been solid support jobs. And COR x2 is just as nice as BRD x2.

Well, let's see how long it is before I get to party with a COR now. :p

[Kixxi]

Yes, in this respect we should be grateful to SE for making the rolls improve with jobs - they've picked unpopular jobs (in players' eyes) and made some of the most popular rolls correspond to the unpopular jobs in an attempt to give those jobs a chance. Evoker's Roll could have easily been enhanced by having a popular RDM (under a different name, of course) in the party but instead they've given it to SMN. Same with Rogue's Roll, and Chaos Roll - two other popular rolls, enhanced by two more unpopular jobs.

[Icemage]

Evoker's is still inferior to Mage's Ballad in most common situations. You'll typically get 2-3MP, since hitting XI is so rare without using Snake Eye (and pretty rare even when you do).

With a Summoner in the party, it improves dramatically. Then again, so does a lolBard with a Gjallarhorn. :P


Icemage

[Armando]

I've never understood the COR hate anyway, they've always been solid support jobs. And COR x2 is just as nice as BRD x2. The thing was that without the corresponding job, the rolls weren't all that impressive. Now COR can out-(single)-minuet and out-(single)-madrigal BRD if I'm remembering the numbers right. Especially since BRD's are static numbers, but Chaos Roll is a percentage, and with a DRK, it has the potential to be tremendous. 40% of 400 Attack is +160. And now two-handed weapons got their pDIF boosted...

gg S-E. gg.

[hongman]

Now I havent partied much with Cors admittedly, but one thing I can still see as being annoying (for mages) is that randomness still.

I couldnt/wouldnt remember in the heat of a fast pace meripo what the last number rolled for Refresh was, so I have no idea what MP/tick I am getting back, and suitably adjusting (if need be) my MP useage.

Whereas with Bard, I know with my 2 Ballads I have 3Mp/tick going.

(Hmm, 2 x Ballad, Sanction, Refresh + Duelist's Chap, 8MP/tick... funny how Iv never thought about the total!)

[WishMaster3K]

Got 9mp/tick back last night.

Refresh, Sanction, Auto-Refresh, Parade Gorget, Evokers.

That and Colibri hit me like little girls now.

[Celeal]

Wow, 40% attack bonus, that is more that attack food or Beserk, very amazing ^^b

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

It seems Gallant's Roll also seems to be returning the same percentages Chaos is right now. While that's not going to be amazing for EXP/Meritpo, COR might have earned a spot in tank PTs if PLD is blood-tanking.

Perhaps not, but Gallant's has gone from LOL to situationally useful damage reflection.

[Armando]

You mean an XI Gallant's Roll on a Paladin does 40% of the damage the PLD takes to the mob?

EDIT: More importantly, can Gallant's Roll's damage be resisted like Spikes?

[WishMaster3K]

Seen it occasionally, so the short answer is either Yes, or it did less damage because I was being hit by a little girl.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Here's a direct link (http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=159909) to the thread I'm referencing.

And here's the effects of 11 on Gallant's with no PLD (from Harushi):

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m194/velvetr187/img_20070827_232727.png

[Armando]

That. Is. Sexual.

[WishMaster3K]

Wow. Ok, now that's awesome. I don't see myself giving up either Hunter Chaos Warrior or Evoker's roll in exchange for that, but I can imagine having Gallant's Roll and Evokers during end-game blood tanking.

Until that's Time Mage roll comes out, then it's that and Evokers for Shadow/Flash Abuse >_>

[wrongfeifong]

Sadly, Matk roll did not got any sort of boost, as i just finished a mana burn party, tested it out on a 70-69 blm party on wamoura prince (high resistence) but never saw an AM break 1.1k+ and dmg are just same as before the patch (same mana bun party).

As for the rolls, i never thought brd or rdm could win in the refresh game anyway, since we also have +healing roll.

[Callisto]

Just a note, the Phantom Roll range+ ring is available for 4,000 IS from any of the Imperial Overseer's, although you need Superior Private rank or greater.

[Omni]

the effects of hunters roll are pretty nice also.

very nice upgrade to cor.

i was leveling cor all weekend and sometimes you wonder, does your rolls even make a difference? after lvling some more last night, you can really feel the boost now.

cant wait to see double attack+ and crit+ test results.

[Mhurron]

does your rolls even make a difference?
Can I has Phantom Roll buff?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sadly, Matk roll did not got any sort of boost, as i just finished a mana burn party, tested it out on a 70-69 blm party on wamoura prince (high resistence) but never saw an AM break 1.1k+ and dmg are just same as before the patch (same mana bun party).

As for the rolls, i never thought brd or rdm could win in the refresh game anyway, since we also have +healing roll.

So far it seems that our original rolls did actually get a buff, but it was very small ones.

Healer's Roll got a +1hMP boost per value, I'd assume the same of Warlock and maybe Wizard's Roll. Its not very noticable, but its there. We didn't really need a huge boost on things like our Mage buffs because they already were rather powerful.

The signifigant changes so far seem to lie within:

Chaos Roll
Hunter's Roll
Ninja Roll
Evoker's Roll
Gallant's Roll
Healer's Roll

Things like Rouge and Fighter's Roll are probably going to take a bit longer to see it anything changed. I do think Fighter's and Rouge's got a buff, but probably not as sizable as the those other buffs got.

Samurai Roll feels stronger, but I also just got my Rajas ring recently, so that could be skewing my perspective.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

OK, Credit to Kylen from KI/Alla and Spider-Dan on this link. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=17;mid=1188332953273055247;num=6;pa ge=1)

They more or less worked together to redo the roll calculations.

As some older posters here may know, I designed a spreadsheet back when COR first came out that would calculate the optimal double-up strategies for each roll based on expected values.

Redvenomweb (Spider-Dan) was kind enough to compile roll data in this spreadsheet from various sources and host it here:

(Link omitted because FFXIOnline.com's system was spazzing out for spam or something, just check the thread)

Calculating the expected value for a roll isn't as simple as adding each outcome up and taking the average, since each roll is a sequence of yes/no decisions, and the expected value of any one of those decisions is dependent on future decisions made during the same roll. The method I used is to assume that the COR is always going to want to maximize their expected outcome and base each decision to double-up or stay off of that. The easiest way to take future rolls into account is to start at XI (where the decision is fixed: always stay), and work our way backwards to I, assuming that we are always going to make the decision to stay/roll that maximizes our average expected outcome.

I'm aware that there are some oversimplifications in this model, notably:

Bust value is set to 0. It's hard to find exact values for Bust because the true effects of a Bust can vary a lot in different situations and for different rolls. I chose to ignore the penalty that the COR gets, because 1) these rolls are primarily helping other members of the party, and 2) some Bust penalties don't affect a COR's performance at all. I'm also aware that a COR can reroll 1 minute later (or immediately if they use Fold/Random Deal) when they bust, and because of that it's been suggested to make Bust value 4/5 the strength of a normal roll where the strategy would be to stop at VI (again, pre-Fold when you wanted to avoid Double bust at all costs). However, this also doesn't take into account that depending on where you are in your roll cycle, other rolls may be pushed back by a minute as well. Quantifying the combined effects of missing 1 minute of Rogue's, Evoker's, and Figher's Roll would be an extremely difficult task. However, if anyone would like to try tweaking values of Bust to see how they affect rolling strategies/expected values, it is very easy to do so - just change the Bust value in the spreadsheet and all the other numbers in the table will be recalculated automatically.
Fold and Snake Eye aren't taken into account. If you're 75 and have those merited your expected values will obviously increase some, but I chose not to apply their affects to this model because 1) their timers aren't going to be up all the time, and 2) everyone is going to have different strategies for using Fold and Snake Eye, depending on the party setup and situation you're in. Sometimes you're the only source of refresh for a WHM healer and you'll always need to save Snake Eye for Evoker's, and other times you might be in a RDM + BRD party and will prefer to save Snake Eye to maximize a melee roll.


Below is the data that has been gathered so far, and the optimal rolling strategies that go with each. I'll add to this as more data becomes available for other rolls.

Evoker's Roll, no SMN: Expected value: 2.29 mp/tick

Roll # Roll Value Expected Value of Double-up Double up?
0 0 2.293192015 Yes
1 1 2.251307442 Yes
2 1 2.215406379 Yes
3 1 2.06558642 Yes
4 1 2.199074074 Yes
5 3 2.365740741 No
6 2 2.027777778 Yes
7 2 1.694444444 No
8 2 1.361111111 No
9 1 1.166666667 Yes
10 3 0.666666667 No
11 4 0 No
bust 0



*note* I'm assuming that having a SMN in party still adds 1 mp/tick to all rolls; I will revise this if data is posted somewhere that proves otherwise
Evoker's Roll, with SMN: Expected value: 3.27 mp/tick

Roll # Roll Value Expected Value of Double-up Double up?
0 0 3.270961934 Yes
1 2 3.232253086 Yes
2 2 3.199074074 Yes
3 2 3.027777778 Yes
4 2 3.166666667 Yes
5 4 3.333333333 No
6 3 2.833333333 No
7 3 2.333333333 No
8 3 1.833333333 No
9 2 1.5 No
10 4 0.833333333 No
11 5 0 No
bust 0



Chaos Roll, no DRK : Expected value: +18.47% atk
Data gathered by Spider-Dan

Roll # Roll Value Expected Value of Double-up Double up?
0 0 18.47224987 Yes
1 6 18.04764275 Yes
2 7.66 17.05655093 Yes
3 9.33 17.04847222 Yes
4 25 15.99180556 No
5 10.66 18.13583333 Yes
6 12.5 15.545 Yes
7 15.5 12.96166667 No
8 3 11.11 Yes
9 17 8.276666667 No
10 18.66 5.166666667 No
11 31 0 No
bust 0



Chaos Roll, with DRK : Expected value: +27% atk

Roll # Roll Value Expected Value of Double-up Double up?
0 0 26.96965603 Yes
1 16 26.73541945 Yes
2 17.5 25.20774048 Yes
3 19 25.42806327 Yes
4 34.75 24.3863966 No
5 20.66 26.75976852 Yes
6 22.25 22.93694444 Yes
7 25.33 18.71527778 No
8 12.75 16.04166667 Yes
9 26.75 11.58333333 No
10 28.5 6.833333333 No
11 41 0 No
bust 0


Healer's Roll, no WHM: Expected Value: +7.3 hmp
Data gathered by DracontX

Roll # Roll Value Expected Value of Double-up Double up?
0 0 7.309785094 Yes
1 2 7.027434842 Yes
2 3 6.880658436 Yes
3 10 6.380658436 No
4 4 6.469135802 Yes
5 4 7.259259259 Yes
6 5 6.222222222 Yes
7 1 5.333333333 Yes
8 6 4.333333333 No
9 7 3.166666667 No
10 7 2 No
11 12 0 No
bust 0



Healer's Roll, with WHM: Expected Value: +9.96 hmp

Roll # Roll Value Expected Value of Double-up Double up?
0 0 9.961834134 Yes
1 5 9.586334019 Yes
2 6 9.502572016 Yes
3 13 9.002572016 No
4 7 9.145061728 Yes
5 7 9.981481481 Yes
6 8 8.555555556 Yes
7 4 7.333333333 Yes
8 9 5.833333333 No
9 10 4.166666667 No
10 10 2.5 No
11 15 0 No
bust 0


This is a huge change from pre-update Evoker's Roll. Before, it was advantageous to always double-up on VI and VII. Now, we should no longer be doubling up on VII at all, and with a SMN in the party not even on VI! Even without a SMN, doubling up on VI is a wash now - your expected value goes up by .02 mp/tick, which is a miniscule amount.

These changes may also affect when Snake Eye should be used. Before, it was obviously advantageous to use Snake Eye to turn X into an XI for Evoker's. Now, you only gain 1 mp/tick by doing that - it might be a better idea after this update to stay on X and save Snake Eye for IV or IX rolls where it makes a bigger difference.