Your thoughts on Summoner

[Silent Howler]

Alright, SMN seems like a pretty hot topic. And this is the big o' thread for it. To start things off, let's take a look at a quote concerning SMN.

SUMMONER: One observation the development team has noticed has been the tendency of Summoners to only cast an avatar when they need a specific spell (i.e. Aerial Armor), and then to release them. The team would like the Summoner to leave the avatars out longer. To achieve this it's considering giving the Summoner more MP, although in reality a lower perpetuation cost might be more effective. The duration of Summoner-derived party buffs will depend -- finally -- on the level of a Summoner's summoning magic skill. The FFXI team is planning to add more abilities for avatars. There are no plans to add Bahamut as an avatar. The reason for this is because if the developers were to add Bahamut as a summonable avatar, they would have to reduce his strength considerably, and the team didn't want to do that. New avatars will, however, be added in the future.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=3&cId=3148759


That seems like a good idea right? Lowering perpetuation cost for avatars. But then I started thinking about it...

Bahamut's Staff or a HQ Elemental Staff (Apollo's Staff) reduces the cost by 3.
Penance Robe reduces the cost by 2.
Nashira Gages reduces the cost by 1.
Evoker's Ring reduces the cost by 1.
Evoker's pigaches +1 reduces the cost by 1.

And that's some of the basic equipment for lowering the cost. Summoner's Doublet and Summoner's Horn can also reduce the cost by 3 each, but they are dependant on day/weather conditions. And let's not forget about Carbuncle Mitts.

So not counting those last two Summoner pieces or the mitts, it adds up to -6. Factor in SMN's auto-refresh and throw in a Yagudo drink for Refresh +3. Heck you can already get a free Carby even without the mitts. Fenrir would only be 2mp/tick, the other avatars would be 4mp/tick. And again, this isn't even counting Summoner's Doublet or Summoner's Horn. At higher level, SMN can do just fine.

But let's look at that again, "at higher level" SMN can do just fine.

See now, there's your problem. It's not the avatar's perpetuation cost, it's the lack of equipment to do anything about it at lower levels. Sure, there's Carbuncle Mitts, but you have to defeat a lvl 70 NM to get them... But what about the Dragon Staff? Oh right, you have to win against The Wyrmking Descends... Honestly, unless you did these before with a higher job or could get some people to help you with these, you're not going to get anything to help you with the perpetuation cost until you reach lvl 50.

So, there are two things I have thought of to help with this. One or the other could work. The first would be an Exclusive item that could be an additional reward to the lvl 20 solo avatar fights. For example, "Ifrit's Ring. Ifrit perpetuation cost -1. Lv. 20 SMN" There would be one for each of the six elemental avatars.

And as much as I like that idea, I know it would be a pain for SMNs to carry six rings around with them. So I came up with an alternative idea. It would be an enchantment item, probably similar to the Mana Cloak (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Mana_Cloak) except the enchantment would be "Avatar perpetuation cost -1" (The item should be either a cloak, gloves, or a ring. And the lvl requirement could be 21+). I don't know if it should be a normal store item though.






So there's a thought from me. But remember, there's more to discuss than just what I've been talking about. Like for example, how do you feel about not having Bahamut summonable? Do you think the SMN group two merits are worth it, or should they be made into normal Blood Pacts and give us new merits? Are the Astral Flow Blood Pacts worth it at higher levels or should they be changed?

[Taskmage]

I haven't really thought this through so don't come down on me too hard, but what if summoners were just allowed to rest for mp while they had an avatar out? It seems to me that the drawback of not being able to rest is greater than the drawback of perpetuation cost, but I don't see why that additional caveat is required.

[Malacite]

Even with all the perp-down you can get, I believe celestial avatars and diabolos still take at least 8 MP.

[Satori]

I've not had much experience with smn but I'd love to see the magus sisters in the game,

while most are drooling of the thought of Odin and Alexander, I'd rather summon 3 at once lol. but thats just me being greedy as usual lol.

[Silent Howler]

I haven't really thought this through so don't come down on me too hard, but what if summoners were just allowed to rest for mp while they had an avatar out? It seems to me that the drawback of not being able to rest is greater than the drawback of perpetuation cost, but I don't see why that additional caveat is required.
Well, if it were like that then everyone would spend the whole time resting except when they need to use a blood pact. And I'm guessing S-E didn't like that. But here they say they don't like it when everyone only summons for a particular blood pact and then unsummons.

Make up your mind S-E!

But either way, you basically get the same result. However, if they make it so each blood pact had a timer on it's own rather than one timer for the whole catagory, you might see something different.

[Silent Howler]

Even with all the perp-down you can get, I believe celestial avatars and diabolos still take at least 8 MP.
If this (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Summoner_Avatar_Costs) is accurate and you factor in all the perp-down, it does get pretty low.

[Clever Ninja]

They honestly just need to redo the scaling of Perpetuation cost. It hurts low level SMN's so much that they're good for nothing but spamming Cure's. They need to make the cost lower for low level SMN's, then just raise it for when all the good equipment in the 50's and 60's kicks in.

[Malacite]

Seriously. At level 1, Carby and Fenrir are 2 MP. No biggie. The celestial avtars are severn and Diabolos is 3 and quickly surpasses the celestials in cost. They're not even all that stonger than carbuncle either, so WTF? (Fenrir remains the strongest I find)

Seriously wtf SE? Either drop the perpetuation costs or better yet raise avatar performance based on skill level and the avatar itself (making them a little more unique apart from being separate elements)

For example, Ifrit would be a heavy DD type, while Titan would have high DEF VIT ad HP and thus tank best out of the avatars.

This would help add an entirely new dimension to SMN, and possibly get them into more PT roles (Having a SMN use Titan to tank mobs would be really, really cool IMO)

[Silent Howler]

They honestly just need to redo the scaling of Perpetuation cost. It hurts low level SMN's so much that they're good for nothing but spamming Cure's. They need to make the cost lower for low level SMN's, then just raise it for when all the good equipment in the 50's and 60's kicks in.
They kind of do that already, actually.

Looking at the avatars, other than Carbuncle and Fenrir, it starts off with: lvl 1, 3mp/tick. lvl 10, 4mp/tick. lvl 19, 5mp/tick. The level gab in between increases in cost is 9. Looking at the later end of the scale: lvl 68, 11mp/tick. lvl 71, 12mp/tick. lvl 74, 13mp/tick. Now the cost goes up every 3 levels.

[Akashimo]

This would help add an entirely new dimension to SMN, and possibly get them into more PT roles (Having a SMN use Titan to tank mobs would be really, really cool IMO)
Thong man tank {Do you need it?} :rofl:
Seriously though, I like the idea of boosts based on them.
Based on the elemental defuffs, and general elemetals spell line and random stuff to noticed

Ifirit = STR/ATK
Ramuh = DEX/Crits
Titan = VIT/DEF
Garuda = AGI/EVA/Haste
Levithan = MND/Cures?
Shiva = INT/Paralyze?
Carbuncle = chr?
Fenrir = Stats/modifiers?
Diabolos = rdm?

[Taskmage]

Well, if it were like that then everyone would spend the whole time resting except when they need to use a blood pact. And I'm guessing S-E didn't like that.That's kinda the way it already is. Unless a smn is using a BP or casting cures, they should be sitting. If they were allowed to keep their avatar out, they'd have to jump up to assault each pull in addition to that. The rest of the time they'd basically be meditating to maintain their avatar, and gaining back small amounts of mp they can use for BPs.

Maintaining Fenrir for one minute at level 30 costs 100 mp, which really isn't that much. It's about the same as a blm casting two Water II or a whm casting two Cure III. One solid minute of resting at the same level regains 123 mp. A blm or a whm can cast their two spells and sit for the rest of the minute, or cast, sit for 5 ticks and cast again, and break even on mp. A summoner loses that mp AND the ability to rest, which is basically the same as losing 223 mp for every minute they decide to keep an avatar out instead of resting. At that price avatar melee stops looking anything close to cost-effective.

[Susurrus]

Maybe make them a bit more effective. If the amount of melee damage they do can at least match most DDs, then maybe it would be a bit more worthwhile to hold them out.

[Thoris]

i 2nd that, make there attacks stronger. Come on carby would attack a Easy prey and do 8 dmg when ur lv 10. That just sucks. They need to make them stronger as melee stronger and lower mp cost

[Malacite]

Avatars used to get stronger against lower leveled opponents like players do but SE changed that back in 2004 I believe. Also, there's actually a set damage cap for their melee (I think it's arounf 160, at least for carbuncle).

It doesn't matter if the avatar scores a critial hit either, their regular melee will never exceed the preset cap.

[Rain_Blade]

Well, I feel like I repeat myself in a lot of threads like this, but meh it's my choice posting again anyhow. Well, in my opinion, Summoners have 3 setbacks. Perpetuation, Blood Pact Timers, and MP cost. Honestly, I can deal with the Blood Pact timers (except in Ballista). The perpetuation and MP cost only bothers me because we have BOTH. I feel like we should have one or the other. I know SE wants to balance the jobs like making each job have advantages and disadvantages, but sometimes I feel like they may go too far in really trying to balance things out in a way it's actually hurting the job.

[HairdewX]

I really wish the auto-refresh tic wasn't used before -avatar perp. It would be nice to have that extra tic of MP, especially when you have more -perp than the cost of the avatar (carbuncle).

[Akashimo]

Or at least Auto-Refresh II as a merit job trait that gives us 2 mp a tick that staicks with Auto-Refresh, and a conserve mp trait for blood pacting.

[Silent Howler]

Well, I feel like I repeat myself in a lot of threads like this, but meh it's my choice posting again anyhow. Well, in my opinion, Summoners have 3 setbacks. Perpetuation, Blood Pact Timers, and MP cost. Honestly, I can deal with the Blood Pact timers (except in Ballista). The perpetuation and MP cost only bothers me because we have BOTH. I feel like we should have one or the other. I know SE wants to balance the jobs like making each job have advantages and disadvantages, but sometimes I feel like they may go too far in really trying to balance things out in a way it's actually hurting the job.
Yeah, and I hear about some Blood Pacts not being cost efficient either. Sometimes you have to wonder, is it worth is to use Double Punch or are you better off sticking with auto-attack?

[Silent Howler]

Okay, changing topic. I've been doing a little thinking and I have one basic question...did they do Smn right?

I ask this because I'm not sure if they did go about it the right way. Looking at what they said about Pup in the job adjustments (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/2212/detail.html) they seem to be turning Pup into the flexible pet job. And to a degree, that's kind of how I imagined Smn working. Either that, or the Support/DD job that it seemed to be designed to be.

But as most of us know, it is not uncommon to see Smn pulled into the Healing role, which is not what it was designed to play. At higher levels this doesn't happen as much, but even at this point, Smn still isn't playing the Support/DD role. In most cases, Smn is purely for Support. The common tactic Smn uses is "summon avatar, cast party buff, unsummon."

Looking at the history of Smn and the avatars...does "support" feel like the right role they should be playing in this game? I don't think so...

[Thoris]

no we should be doing as much dmg or more then Blms. Not Gimp cure 3s

My auto heals me for 400 easy

[IfritnoItazura]

I dunno. I've used (other people's) SMNs in party to SC and MB, to buff and heal.

Can't figure out how they can mainly DD before Lv.70; seen plenty of failed attempts, too. (I can't stand SMN's who spent their MP to leave Avatar out melee'ing and using attack BP's, but barely do more damage than a DRG's Wyvern.)

Also, I'm uneasy with SMN as single main healer, and much rather they have a co-healer to moved to backup healer role.

It takes effort to use SMN as more than a gimped WHM, and it's fault of parties and SMNs that they get shoved into that limited role. A SMN played well will assist with DD'ing, buffing, and curing, and is a beautiful to see, and is always in a hybrid role.

[Malacite]

Can't figure out how they can mainly DD before Lv.70; seen plenty of failed attempts, too. (I can't stand SMN's who spent their MP to leave Avatar out melee'ing and using attack BP's, but barely do more damage than a DRG's Wyvern.)


That's entirely SE's fault though. For a job that relies soley on it's pet you'd think that said pets would be worth the MP spent, but no. SMN is still horribly flawed at this point, and I'd like to know why SE hasn't done anything about it yet.

[Chubsmgee]

you know what though? It all comes down to do you enjoy SMN? You can annalyze and constantly look over the details of how you got screwed in the pooch but over all SMN ispersonally one of my FAVORITE jobs! Wave your hands a little than *boom you have a huge A$$ waer dragon or wolf or whatever next to your side if that doesnt spell AWESOME than i dont knw what does...

[Malacite]

Yeah, 'cause playing WHM v.2 is ever so much fun...


I enjoy calling out the avatars and having them do stuff. Now it's up to SE to make that practical.

[Chubsmgee]

Yes thats true but u dont HAVE to play WHM V.2 if u dont WANT to its all up to wat u want to do

[Rain_Blade]

Yes thats true but u dont HAVE to play WHM V.2 if u dont WANT to its all up to wat u want to do

Pretty much everything in this game is based on decisions that you want to do. People want to seek party as Summoner, but most the majority of the time they're asked to heal. Some tend to just accept it because they believe it might get better in the later levels or they just want to get to 75 to see if they can really become accepted as a complete Summoner. People want to lead a party as a Summoner, but sometimes you will hae party members that will complain about the party's killing speed. They may also feel that the Summoner should heal or be replaced by another job that may help the party move faster.

So, Summoners are put into a tight spot where if they lead a party, the party members might leave because they feel they're not getting experience fast enough and if they seek a party, they'll mostly be asked to main heal.

Another thing is that you'll also still be able to use Wards to help the party. Although, Summoners (at least the ones I've talked to or seen opinions of) tend to want to use the full potential. SE explained what the Summoner can do and the players would expect "Hey, if this is what the job is meant to do, then I want to try this!" Sadly, it's not accepted by others and I can understand this. It's all about downtime and maintaining MP. We play with many people around the world and they may have limited time on their hands.

They'd expect themselves to get a party that can move at a steady pace or a fast pace (few people don't care what pace it is as long as they get experience). If a job doesn't fit into someone's else time to get the party going, then the person may be disappointed in that job. So once again, it all seems to be about usage of time and how much success you can get in that amount of time.

For the maintaining MP part, that's also apart of the downtime. Summoners have so much MP, but some people look at it and say it really doesn't matter because it can be drained in minutes if Summoner is being used at full potential (meaning avatar meleeing and doing Rage and Ward nonstop till mp is gone).

So it's like some Summoners love the job itself, but as they play the job, they understand the disadvantages it holds.

But why not heal? Why not keep the partying going? Why not help others? Simply because it sacrifices your own reason for playing the Summoner job and most of the time the reason is to play what SE says the Summoner job can do. As a WHM, I think it's fun since you have access to so many spells to help the party and you know what the job is intended to do. Smn/Whm, in my opinion, is not fun because you feel gimp and because of the previous reasons I've said.

These are just my thoughts. If anyone feels against what I said, I don't mind having a normal discussion about it.

Also, Chubsmgee, I'm not really attacking you. I'm just responding to what you said.

Edit: So basically, it's a love-hate kind of job that people can't get over.

[Bryn]

The problem right now, is SMN is defined by it's support job. Fix the main job so the summoner is spending his time and mana doing effective things with their avatars, and only occasionally backup healing. They can main heal if needed, but it shouldn't be their only role leveling up.

So, Enspell damage, 2 extra BP commands (I'd go with Soothe and Cripple/Tetra), Auto Refresh II (you just get 2mp a tick), and more gear lower level that reduces perp cost, would be ideal. Honestly, AF should have had -perp cost on it.