What do you think of players who sub BST so that they can charm monsters?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

What do you think of level 75 players using Beastmaster as a support job and being able to charm level 75 monsters?

Players have known for some time that if they also have Beastmaster at level 75, then they will be able to use it as a support job and be able to consistently succeed at charming level 75 monsters, just as if they were using Beastmaster as their main job.

Some players see it as an exploit. They reason that if a support job is capped at level 37, then a WAR75/BST37 (for example) shouldn't be able to charm a monster that is much higher than level 37. Still, some other players see this as a valid play style.

Is the way Charm works when Beastmaster is used as a support job intentional? Or are players who use Charm in this manner taking advantage of an exploit?

[Rain_Blade]

What do you think of level 75 players using Beastmaster as a support job and being able to charm level 75 monsters?

Players have known for some time that if they also have Beastmaster at level 75, then they will be able to use it as a support job and be able to consistently succeed at charming level 75 monsters, just as if they were using Beastmaster as their main job.

Some players see it as an exploit. They reason that if a support job is capped at level 37, then a WAR75/BST37 (for example) shouldn't be able to charm a monster that is much higher than level 37. Still, some other players see this as a valid play style.

Is the way Charm works when Beastmaster is used as a support job intentional? Or are players who use Charm in this manner taking advantage of an exploit?

The part in bold is false in my opinion. I don't see why people think this. You can't play the feel of a 75 BST with sub 37. It's basically callng yourself a ???75/BST75 which isn't possible. Whoever came up with this probably brainwashed others into thinking it because that's how people can be nowadays. For the topic question, I see no problem with it when it comes to farming (depends what lvl monsters).

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. We wouldn't want PLD/WAR's or NIN/WAR's Provoke to be half powered of WAR/NIN's, do we?

Allowing full powered charm (limited to main job's level) opens up BST's game play to others. While it potentially could compete with BST's leveling/meriting, there aren't enough of BST's or /BST's to make it a major conflict currently.

Add to that the limitation of no jug pets from /BST and no Leave until Lv.70, it really doesn't have much potential to be a problem for most levels.

I'd just call Charm from /BST a reward for those who had leveled BST and leave it at that.

[KoukiRyu]

Not trying to flame here, but have you tried it before? I mean, of course you don't get JA's, JT's, stats, etc from the BST sub, but there's no reason to discount this unless you've tried it before.

I see this as maybe a sort of...condolence for BST being screwed so much? If you make the climb to 75, and enjoy that solo play, then it allows you to do so on every other job, which in my opinion, would be nice if you do indeed enjoy solo'ing. And on top of that, if it's a different job, you can simply switch subs and go back to normal exp pt'ing.

I'd like to believe this is indeed true, and I don't see it as all as an exploit, and that it could have possibly been intended in the first place so that people can do some more solo'ing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The part in bold is false in my opinion. I don't see why people think this. You can't play the feel of a 75 BST with sub 37. It's basically callng yourself a ???75/BST75 which isn't possible. Whoever came up with this probably brainwashed others into thinking it because that's how people can be nowadays. For the topic question, I see no problem with it when it comes to farming (depends what lvl monsters).

Sorry, but you're wrong. Charm's strength toward other jobs is widely believed and practically accepted to be equal strength to a 75 job when when 75 BST is subbed.

Go take your 75 job and sub a 37 BST and you get resisted and die horribly. A 75 job who has a 75 BST levelled will have more success with charm than a 75 job with BST at 37.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Whether you believe you have to have BST leveled to 75 in order to charm lvl 75 mobs as JOB75/BST37 is actually a side note. I was in a heated thread over in Alla where some players said it was breaking the rules of the game for anyone subbing BST to be able to charm a mob that was much higher than level 37.

I just want to hear "from the horses mouth" what SE thinks of WAR75/BST37 being able to charm level 75 mobs. It would also be interesting to see if they affirm or deny the unique behavior of Charm when BST is subbed (that's if this question ever gets to them to begin with).

For the topic question, I see no problem with it when it comes to farming (depends what lvl monsters).
The heated topic I mentioned started because of a player who was mad about some LS using a bunch of /BSTs to help take down an HNM. I suppose you could call that a form of farming ;)

[Electricity Gone Human]

Players have known for some time that if they also have Beastmaster at level 75, then they will be able to use it as a support job and be able to consistently succeed at charming level 75 monsters, just as if they were using Beastmaster as their main job.

I'd like to call BS on this. Pics or it didn't happen.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'd like to call BS on this. Pics or it didn't happen.

...

You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that a 75BRD/37BST with 75 BST levelled can charm with the same effectiveness as his 75 BST. I just watched a 75RDM/37BST help a 75 BST and 75 SMN take down Xoltol the other day.

[Rain_Blade]

Sorry, but you're wrong. Charm's strength toward other jobs is widely believed and practically accepted to be equal strength to a 75 job when when 75 BST is subbed.

Go take your 75 job and sub a 37 BST and you get resisted and die horribly. A 75 job who has a 75 BST levelled will have more success with charm than a 75 job with BST at 37.

I apologize for misunderstanding then. It just sounds ridiculous, but if it's true, then once again I apologize for my misunderstanding.

[Kailea]

Charm is based of CHR... thats why you can sub it and still charm , its not because you ahve leveled BST to 75 -.-

[Ziero]

I was charming lvl 25-30 mobs with a lvl 1 Bst sub on my 31 thf back in the day

It works because it's based on Chr not Bst level. There has been zero proof that being a 75bst and subbing it increases charm rate. And the only way *to* prove it is to have three identical characters, one subbing lvl 1 Bst, one subbing 37 Bst and the third subbing 75 Bst and have them charm the same exact mob repeatedly and see who gets the better rate. That is assuming mobs don't build up a resistance to charm now like they do with everything else.

[Skoal]

I was charming lvl 25-30 mobs with a lvl 1 Bst sub on my 31 thf back in the day

It works because it's based on Chr not Bst level. There has been zero proof that being a 75bst and subbing it increases charm rate. And the only way *to* prove it is to have three identical characters, one subbing lvl 1 Bst, one subbing 37 Bst and the third subbing 75 Bst and have them charm the same exact mob repeatedly and see who gets the better rate. That is assuming mobs don't build up a resistance to charm now like they do with everything else.


People have done what you suggest doing. They just didn't make this up.

This has been around a long time, I am surprised so many people have been in the dark about it.

[Mhurron]

I apologize for misunderstanding then. It just sounds ridiculous, but if it's true, then once again I apologize for my misunderstanding.

It's a completely understandable position to take, after all subbed spells (WHM summoning carbuncle or a WHM casting stone) are half strength. The difference is charm is a JA not a spell that is based on a skill level. Provoke (as mentioned) isn't half strength when used buy a NIN or PLD, neither is any other JA (AFAIK).

[LyonheartLakshmi]

It's a completely understandable position to take, after all subbed spells (WHM summoning carbuncle or a WHM casting stone) are half strength. The difference is charm is a JA not a spell that is based on a skill level. Provoke (as mentioned) isn't half strength when used buy a NIN or PLD, neither is any other JA (AFAIK).
I argued that point for quite a long time as well. There is only one JA in the entire game that I could come up with that scales in strength based on level: Hasso. Well, at least the STR bonus portion of it.

[Necropolis]

I've heard that having bst fully leveled to 75 will increase charm rates, but I've found from personal experience that I have no problem charming VT and lower on my 75 whm. By bst is currently only 43.

There may be some modifier, or secret skill associated with charm that we don't know about (kinda like choco digging?), but I'd have to say it's based primarily on chr. The duration of charm and the resist rates have been consistant across both whm and bst.

Personally, I don't feel this is an exploit at all. How is it that half the populace will say lolbst yet turn around and complain about having bst as a support job? Even if it did give an "unfair" advantage, you still have to deal with the problems bst have. Lack of camps, despawn patch, and losing claim on mobs, as well as people camping ontop of you.

Not to mention you don't get call bst, for when you try to swap pets and find someone has killed all you pets to watch you die. Leave, tame, and reward at double the level now, so you'll be "ghetto" leaving pets for a lot longer, and slower exp. I don't really see it as a great solo class by using /bst, but nice for some NMs and events. Recently I used /whm to claim Shikigami Weapon, widescan and /ja charm <scan> lets me attempt to charm it even while invisible.

I see it as nothing more than a utility job that will rarely see use, and the occasional person determined to solo thier way to 75.

[KingOfZeal]

I've heard that having bst fully leveled to 75 will increase charm rates, but I've found from personal experience that I have no problem charming VT and lower on my 75 whm. By bst is currently only 43.

There may be some modifier, or secret skill associated with charm that we don't know about (kinda like choco digging?), but I'd have to say it's based primarily on chr. The duration of charm and the resist rates have been consistant across both whm and bst.


Charm is based on level and CHR. One point that has been made on the BRD forums, regarding /BST, is that a 1BRD/75BST can charm things much greater than a level 1 BST -- because of the level. Likewise, a 75BRD/1BST can also charm things much greater than a 1 BST -- because of the high CHR.
White Mages also have a high CHR (which is why many BRD's sub WHM), so the argument is mostly the same.


As far as the OP, I don't see any problem with it. I am leveling BST now, in fact, and it's much longer to get anywhere because of two reasons:
#1, you're soloing. Because of this, many times you are limited to T's or VT's (surely not IT's like a party could do), which has a lower XP gain, even though it takes the same amount of time (if not longer) to kill. Add on the XP reduction if you charm a pet (which most people do, as opposed to a Jug pets which are often weaker), and you're getting considerably less xp/hour.
#2, you're soloing. Since you're taking T-VT's, and since you're doing it yourself, you are taking a much bigger risk. If you die (pre RR from /WHM), there's a very high change you won't get a raise at all because of the general dislike of BST by players. So, you eat the 10% xp loss (or 5%, if you do have RR, which is still significant in the higher levels), plus the time it takes to get back to your camp and your xp/hour is diminished even further. Many BST's complain of having double-digit deaths per level, as well, which just goes to reinforce this.

I would argue that getting BST to 75 could take 3-5x longer than a normal party job (especially a support job like BRD, WHM or RDM), which makes any rewards you get from /BST more than deserved.

[Vyuru]

Not trying to flame here, but have you tried it before? I mean, of course you don't get JA's, JT's, stats, etc from the BST sub, but there's no reason to discount this unless you've tried it before.


Yeah, but I'd point out that the whole charm thing opens up alot of possiblities. I could lvl thf and bst to 75, charm some mob, and go to town farming with THII + other TH gear.

More solo aspects.... so yeah, this is quite the thing here.

Charm is based of CHR... thats why you can sub it and still charm , its not because you ahve leveled BST to 75 -.-

If a lvl 1 bst with max chr went to charm something, a lvl 1pup/75bst with less chr would have an easier time charming the same mob and have the charm last longer to my understanding.

[Yellow Mage]

Not to intrude, but the whole "Provoke" analogy is flawed because, to my understanding, it works exactly the same against every mob at every level.

This is as opposed to Charm where, if you tried it against a mob an insane amount of levels higher than you, you'd quickly find yourself dead.

My two gil on this issue.

[IfritnoItazura]

Not to intrude, but the whole "Provoke" analogy is flawed because, to my understanding, it works exactly the same against every mob at every level.

This is as opposed to Charm where, if you tried it against a mob an insane amount of levels higher than you, you'd quickly find yourself dead.
Didn't mean to suggest Charm works the same on all monsters like Provoke--I meant that it works the same for BST and /BST, like Provoke for WAR and /WAR.

[WishMaster3K]

Some people think it affects, some people don't. I'm a conscious objector because it seems odd that it would go against the mechanics in the game, unless there was some sort of "mob affinity" tied to a character's Charm, and it stayed with you similar to how Tonberry or Fomor hate does.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Some people think it affects, some people don't. I'm a conscious objector because it seems odd that it would go against the mechanics in the game, unless there was some sort of "mob affinity" tied to a character's Charm, and it stayed with you similar to how Tonberry or Fomor hate does.

You do realize that, coupled with RDM or BRD, that /BST would bring a character very close to emulating Enchanter and, thus, being the ultimate combination crowd control in this game? Bind, Sleep, Charm, Fight?

I loved Enchanter in EQ, drives me nuts that no job in FFXI can do it natively and I'd totally quit BRD for good if they depowered /BST because working to obtain that kind of ability is the single most enormous task in the game. At least outside of upgrading relic.

The problem is, SE probably realizes this and that's why each and every "endgame" camp or zone is anti-charm. The major oversight being Dragon's Aery, of course. BSTs could charm Courels in BD but they'd be more useful if they actually at the level where they could aggro you. VoS has Rocs, uncharmable.

So far, BST or /BSTs skills are just highlighted for Alastor Antlion and Hakutaku at high level. Oh and we can charm birds in sky. And yet, Aern BSTs can charm Xomits and real BSTs can't.

Um, thanks SE.

Otherwise its one of the best ways to solo and farm in the game, I don't think someone who has soloed thier EXP to 75 on BST deserves to be robbed of what they clearly worked for.

BST has had enough shafting in this game, thanks. Leave it be. The job needs upgrades, not further unnessary downgrades.

[KingOfZeal]

The problem is, SE probably realizes this and that's why each and every "endgame" camp or zone is anti-charm. The major oversight being Dragon's Aery, of course. BSTs could charm Courels in BD but they'd be more useful if they actually at the level where they could aggro you. VoS has Rocs, uncharmable.

Completely off-topic, can Empty-type mobs be charmed? I haven't been able to find anything about it one way or another anywhere, but I'm not 30BST yet so I can't try it out myself with any reasonable result...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Empty can't be charmed, either. BST statics have been know to jugburn promys though.

[IfritnoItazura]

Completely off-topic, can Empty-type mobs be charmed? I haven't been able to find anything about it one way or another anywhere, but I'm not 30BST yet so I can't try it out myself with any reasonable result...

AFAIK, Empty type monsters cannot be charmed.

[Mhurron]

Completely off-topic, can Empty-type mobs be charmed? I haven't been able to find anything about it one way or another anywhere, but I'm not 30BST yet so I can't try it out myself with any reasonable result...
I am 99.99999% sure they can not. Empty are just damn weird in every conceivable way.

[Callisto]

It's a completely understandable position to take, after all subbed spells (WHM summoning carbuncle or a WHM casting stone) are half strength. The difference is charm is a JA not a spell that is based on a skill level. Provoke (as mentioned) isn't half strength when used buy a NIN or PLD, neither is any other JA (AFAIK).
I argued that point for quite a long time as well. There is only one JA in the entire game that I could come up with that scales in strength based on level: Hasso. Well, at least the STR bonus portion of it.

Sneak Attack. It's actually less than half-strength, as it does not get a DEX multiplier when used as /THF, it only guarantees a critical hit.

TA as well, but I didn't count that as I believe it doesn't get the AGI multi without the Assassin trait, which would be impossible to get as /THF anyways.

[little ninja]

My friend who was a 72drg/41bst was on the one side of sky fighting flamingo vs flamingo. An i was on the other side doing the same thing with my 72nin/75bst. An i had less mischarms then he did. an we both had the exact same charm gear. An both were eating food with Chr.

[Mhurron]

Sneak Attack. It's actually less than half-strength, as it does not get a DEX multiplier when used as /THF, it only guarantees a critical hit.
TA as well, but I didn't count that as I believe it doesn't get the AGI multi without the Assassin trait, which would be impossible to get as /THF anyways.
Interesting, good to know.

[Karinya]

You do realize that, coupled with RDM or BRD, that /BST would bring a character very close to emulating Enchanter and, thus, being the ultimate combination crowd control in this game? Bind, Sleep, Charm, Fight?
Bard already has native charm (at high levels, at least). Low skill would probably keep them from getting an effective bind capability from BRD/RDM though.

RDM/BST can only sleep one thing at a time though. So I think you're better off giving up bind and sticking with bard (which can charm, single target sleep *and* aoe sleep without subjob and without MP).

I never played EQ (although I had a friend whose main was an enchanter); that being said, I don't think that kind of pure CC specialist is as necessary in a game with fewer mandatory multi-pulls. A few playstyles involve voluntary multi-pulling and the existing jobs CC well enough to support it; Dynamis and other endgame areas have mandatory multi-pulls but again, existing jobs CC well enough to support it (especially considering how many people you have around).

Aren't you also leaving out one of EQ enchanter's other big strengths, its monstrously powerful slows? At least, the impression I got from my enchanter friend is that there were slows that made SV Elegy look weak by comparison - and mobs that you couldn't survive unless they were slowed that much. BRD and RDM already have slows, too, but I think they're not quite as strong or crucial in FFXI.
BST has had enough shafting in this game, thanks. Leave it be. The job needs upgrades, not further unnessary downgrades.
True, but I think it already doesn't work the way you think it works (and it shouldn't - allowing "extra" levels to have an effect breaks the job/subjob system.) Anyway, BST upgrades need not and should not come from charm - the job is too dependent on charm already because of the relative uselessness of Call Beast. But we've had that thread several times already.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Bard already has native charm (at high levels, at least). Low skill would probably keep them from getting an effective bind capability from BRD/RDM though.

Verelai is purely LOL. It charms and wears off in 30 seconds and you can't control the mob when its under that kind of charm. Only BST Charm plus its JAs let you control mobs. Lullaby is an effective enough enfeeble to substitute for bind, Elegy is on par with what Enchanters had, the only real difference is BRD doesn't have the Magic Shield ability, that would be RDM's Phalnax.

I would CC all the time with Enhanter, when rouges got two links on a pull I'd bind one, charm the other and send it to find the link to fight the bound one, then I'd resume my manabattery duties. Then my allies would take down the mob my pet was fighting. It was a beautiful thing to behold, but SE killed any potential for it in FFXI with stupifying EXP and level penalties on charm.

[Armando]

Sneak Attack. It's actually less than half-strength, as it does not get a DEX multiplier when used as /THF, it only guarantees a critical hit.

TA as well, but I didn't count that as I believe it doesn't get the AGI multi without the Assassin trait, which would be impossible to get as /THF anyways.Don't forget Souleater (subbed Souleater consumes 10% HP per swing but only outputs 5% HP or 1/2 of that 10% into damage.)

Nevertheless, I'm 70% certain from my limited /BST experiences that your uncapped BST level does matter.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Sneak Attack. It's actually less than half-strength, as it does not get a DEX multiplier when used as /THF, it only guarantees a critical hit.

TA as well, but I didn't count that as I believe it doesn't get the AGI multi without the Assassin trait, which would be impossible to get as /THF anyways.
Both are JAs which are weakened by virtue of THF being subbed, which isn't the result of a job being capped at half level. Once SA becomes available from subbing THF (i.e. JOB30/THF15), it is as effective as it will ever be. SA does not continue to increase in power from JOB30/THF15 to JOB75/THF37. The only reason SA damage goes up for THF main is that base DEX goes up with levels, not to mention more options as far as gear which gives +DEX. The same goes for TA.

Charm is quite different in that its effectiveness is very directly tied to the level of BST. If somehow a level 30 BST had the same amount of CHR as a level 50 BST, the level 30 BST still wouldn't be able to Charm with the same success rate or duration as the level 50 BST. This is what I meant by a JA who's strength scales with level. If a level 30 THF somehow had the same amount of DEX as a level 50 THF, SA would give the same benefit to both the level 30 and the level 50 THF.

Hasso's STR boost is directly tied to the level of SAM. It's not that SAM main gets +10 STR all the time, and that /SAM gets +5 STR all the time. The STR boost actually goes up from +3 at level 25 to +10 at level 75.

[IfritnoItazura]

If a level 30 THF somehow had the same amount of DEX as a level 50 THF, SA would give the same benefit to both the level 30 and the level 50 THF.
That depends on how you look at it--level correction for damage is still in play, however much DEX one has. Even if a THF30 has THF50's amount of DEX, it still cannot do same amount of damage on the same monsters as a THF50.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

That depends on how you look at it--level correction for damage is still in play, however much DEX one has. Even if a THF30 has THF50's amount of DEX, it still cannot do same amount of damage on the same monsters as a THF50.
Nevertheless, SA adds an amount to base damage varying only by DEX, which has nothing to do with the level of the job. Base damage then gets scaled by pDif, so their overall damage will be quite different.

When it's subbed, SA has no variance in any way shape or form as the player's level changes. A WAR75/THF15 compared to a WAR75/THF20, WAR75/THF30 or WAR75/THF37 will see little difference (the only difference would be due to the additional STR you would get from having an increasingly leveled subjob). The same with Souleater. Compare a WAR75/DRK30 to a WAR75/DRK35 or WAR75/DRK37. Souleater has the same effect on all 3, taking 10% of their HP to deal half of that as damage (with the only difference coming due to higher total HP that comes with an increasingly leveled subjob).

And that is why I say neither JA compares properly to Charm. A WAR75/BST1 will have a noticeably different charm success rate compared to a WAR75/BST37. The success rate of charm is heavily influenced by the level of your subjob itself (and not some indirect stat, such as CHR having gone up due to an increasingly leveled subjob).

Having said all that, I still think it's good to compare Charm to SA and Souleater to come to one very important conclusion: there is no hard-and-fast rule on restricting the power of a Job Ability to "half level" when it comes from a subjob. Each Job Ability is treated differently by SE for the purposes of balancing the game.

[seq]

way back i'v done a small test to prove that charm is dependant on bst's level, me being drk24/bst60 and my friend drk24/bst15, we both used Guage (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Gauge) on the same mob and got different messages although we were both humes and naked...go figure.
the only problem i see with /BST's full power charm is that job/bst will compete with main bsts's few available camps,other than that i love my nin/bst >.>;