Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

[Callisto]

Let me begin by saying I luuuuuuuvvv me some swords. Can't get enough of them. I currently use ESword + Joyeuse as my dual wield setup, but I've been looking at a couple of others, trying to determine what would be best. Currently I'm looking at either getting a Mensur Epee to do Mensur(main)+ESword(off) or Guespiere to do ESword(main)+Guespiere(off).

I've read from a few sources that offhanding a Joyeuse actually can lower your DoT. I looked over most of the dual wield discussions in these forums before, especially the Ridill + Joyeuse one(where it became apparent that Armando is the resident Dualwieldologist here). I understand the basic workings, but unfortunately my math skills have gotten pretty rusty, and I'm not sure exactly how to compute which would be better. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Here's what I'd be working with:

Enhancing Sword - D40 DLY240 DPS10.00 Enspells +5 Latent Acc +8 Atk +16
Joyeuse - D35 DLY224 DPS9.38 Occasionally attacks twice
Guespiere - D38 DLY226 DPS10.09 STR+1 MND+6 Addt'l Effect Weakens Defense
Mensur Epee - D39 DLY224 DPS10.45 Hidden Effect D41-47 depending on party size

DW2 from sub, but no Suppa(went with Abyssal), so DLY -20% I believe.

I know that I'd like to keep using the ESword in one slot, as the Acc/Atk boost are needed, and my enspells are at currently at 27/swing + 10-35% from weather/day boosts, and if using something other than the Epee as my 2nd I'd want the higher damage as my WS slot. These all have approximately the same delay, so I guess part of the choice lies in the added stats, if the boosts of the other two make them worth giving up the double attack effect of the Joyeuse.

Is there any truth to the notion that offhanding a Joyeuse will actually lower DoT/TP gain compared to using another sword with similar delay, but without the attack twice effect? I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing b/c it doesn't seem like that makes sense to me. If anyone can help toss some math in here to help me out I'd appreciate it. :thumbsup:

[WishMaster3K]

That'd be interesting to me as well. But there aren't many swords like the Joyeuse, and the DA procs 50% of the time, so I suppose the prospects of being able to get 15% TP an attack round out weight DoT to an extent, as is the nature of RDM Melee.

But even when I go RDM/NIN, I still use Joyeuse/Genbu, because I don't have a sword worthy of even being next to the Joy Toy.

[Armando]

(Don't mean to sound like I'm scolding, but) I don't know where you heard the idea that Joyeuse can lower your DMG/sec and TP/time, but without running any numbers I can tell you it's false. Joyeuse's 50% proc rate means its "true" DMG/sec ratio is 14.06, which is massive and beats out every other sword on that list. Obviously Enhancing Sword has other stats, but Mensur is just damage and Joyeuse beats it, and I have no clue about Guspiere's Defense Down but at the very least Joyeuse beats its damage by a long shot as well. Operating at 125% of "normal" TP gain furthers the gap even more. Then there's the fact that you also get more Enspells in.

Unless Guspiere has a Defense Down effect that's huge in potency and has a decent enough proc rate that it'll happen before the mob's dead, there only thing that can replace Joyeuse is Justice Sword (but then I'd just tell you to use both.) I think the real question is: should you use Enhancing Sword over Mensur Epee? If you tell me your stats (all of them), and what you expect to be fighting (be specific, level difference makes a tremendous difference and obviously Crabs have a 38+ Defense advantage over most other mobs) I can take a stab at running some numbers. I will say this, though - Mensur Epee does have a lot more DMG/sec going for it than Enhancing Sword.

[Sevv]

That'd be interesting to me as well. But there aren't many swords like the Joyeuse, and the DA procs 50% of the time, so I suppose the prospects of being able to get 15% TP an attack round out weight.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/9/93/Justice_Sword.png
100% drop but need sea. Jailer weapons "run" on a 75%-80% proc rate, I believe. Only takes ammo slot to work this properly.



(Don't mean to sound like I'm scolding, but) I don't know where you heard the idea that Joyeuse can lower your DMG/sec and TP/time, but without running any numbers I can tell you it's false.


I think they worded it wrong, remember a thread here in which someone said you lowered joyeuse effectiveness when you had another weapon off-hand v holding it alone, thats where the idea came from I believe.

[Armando]

I've read Justice Sword is a 50% proc rate just like Joyeuse. Difference is you can still do normal double attacks off of Justice Sword's extra hits.I think they worded it wrong, remember a thread here in which someone said you lowered joyeuse effectiveness when you had another weapon off-hand v holding it alone, thats where the idea came from I believe.Ah, you're right, that's probably it. To clarify, if you dual wield Joyeuse you end up getting 25% extra TP instead of 50%. It's not so much that you're lowering Joyeuse's effectiveness, just your overall TP gain speed. But even so, you're getting in more hits due to the Dual Wield delay reduction, and each Vorpal will be stronger due to higher DMG on the main hand and having an extra hit in there. Dual wielding it can still be worth it.

[WishMaster3K]

Yeah it was another RDM thread about subbing something to the Joyeuse (Daggers) for Enspells.

[Sevv]

it seemed alot higher then 50% every time i party with pld/nin from my ls, most jailers were rumored to be about 75%ish and no way I am about to test it lol.

[Callisto]

(Don't mean to sound like I'm scolding, but) I don't know where you heard the idea that Joyeuse can lower your DMG/sec and TP/time, but without running any numbers I can tell you it's false.

It was on KI or Alla or other forums that are usually BS. Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it sounded kind of suspect, and I wasn't sure exactly how much Joyeuse did.

As far as specific mobs, I actually rarely use /NIN, but the two instances I use it for the most is farming Alky/Pallas trigs against the EP Jotunns and the NMs themselves, and for Hurricane Wyverns in IC when helping to farm Crown items. I believe Jotunns pop around 67 and Wyverns around 77.

If the stat calculator I used is correct, as RDM/NIN line while wearing my current WS/DD set (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?155308) is:

STR: 70+20=90
DEX: 63+7=70
VIT: 65+5=70
AGI: 54+0=54
INT: 62+3=65
MND: 69+7=76
CHR: 61+0=61

Atk +44(not sure my base Atk as /NIN, 252 Sword Skill)
Acc +21

My Enspells do a base of 27 in this setup, not sure how hard it is to calculate that into this equation when determining DoT of ESword vs. Mensur. I'd probably assume a base D of 45 on the Epee, as I usually would be duo with someone else.

Anyways, if you can help me figure out some math as to which would be better, that'd be pretty sweet. At any rate you did just save me some cash on a Guespiere, I appreciate it. :)

Add: Almost forgot, if it wasn't obvious I'd be using predominantly Savage, usually at 100%, with a Thunder Gorget.

[Callisto]

But even so, you're getting in more hits due to the Dual Wield delay reduction, and each Vorpal will be stronger due to higher DMG on the main hand and having an extra hit in there. Dual wielding it can still be worth it.

Now they just need to fix this crap of RDM not having Vorpal on their own; ; Still looking into the Vorpal Sword to see if the rumors are true, I don't know of anyone who has confirmed it yet.

[Armando]

Ok. Any food?

[Callisto]

Usually not, Sweet Rice Cakes if I do though. Pretty sure they wouldn't affect this calculation though.

MP+17
VIT+2
INT+3
MND+1
hHP+2
hMP+2
Eva+5
Resist Silence

Side note: Sweet Rice Cakes are this shiz for RDM/NIN

[Taskmage]

Well, the reason is Joyeuse does 50% more damage and gains 50% more TP than another weapon with the same damage and delay. If you dual wield it with a weapon that doesn't have a double attack effect, you're diluting that effect since it only procs on half your attacks.

We did this in another thread in the context of TP, comparing single wield Joyeuse to dual wielding it with the next fastest TP gainer, Hornetneedle. Here's the breakdown.
Joyeuse swings 1.5 times per attack round on average. So for each attack round it returns an average of 9 tp. With a delay of 224, Joyeuse gets 16.07 attack rounds per minute. Multiplying the two together gets us 144.64 tp/min average.

Hornetneedle has a delay of 150. The combined delay for the two is 374, reduced by 15% from dual wield II gives us 317.9 delay, half of which (158.95) is used to calculate how much tp each hit gives, correct? The Studio Gobli TP formula for delay less than 180 is 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5] / 180, so punching our value in there ... *click click click* Hmm 4.82 per hit, nearly the same as Hornetneedle alone. Duel wielding you'll attack 2.5 times on average so that's 12.05 tp average per round, and 11.32 rounds per minute gives us ... 136.45 tp/min average.


I'm not a dualwieldologist, so my numbers are probably a little off, but single wield comes out ahead. That's why I always prefer to mainhand Marial Anelace over Joyeuse if I'm dual wielding. The TP gain is still slower but the Martial+Joy setup is only racing to 200% instead of 300%. Assuming 100% hit rate and exactly 50% proc rate, single wield Joyeuse hits 300 TP in about 2 minutes and 4 seconds. Assuming the same things, Martial+Joy reaches 200% tp in 1 minute and 42 seconds for the same strength SB or SW.
Combined delay = 224 + 240 = 464
DW modified delay = 464 * 0.85 = 394.4
TP per hit = 5.0 + [((394.4 / 2) - 180) * 1.5] / 180 = 5.14
TP per round = 5.14 * 2.5 = 12.85
rounds per minute = 3600 / 394.4 = 9.13
TP per minute = 9.13 * 12.85 = 117.32
200 TP / 117.32 TP/min = 1.7 minutes

Looking at just enspell damage, if your enspell does 27 with E Sword, then it will do 22 on Joyeuse, but consider that a double attack means enspell fires 2 times for 44 damage total on the round. On average a round with Joyeuse will deal about 33 enspell damage for you.

Just for fun, enspell damage per minute with ESword, Joy, E+Joy, and Hornetneedle+Joy:
ESword : 15 attacks/minute * 27 damage/attack = 405 damage/minute
Joyeuse : ~24.1 attacks/minute * 22 damage/attack = 530 damage/minute
Hornet+Joy : ~28.3 attacks/minute * 22 damage/attack = 622.8 damage/minute
ESword+Joy : ~9.13 rounds/minute * (33 damage/round + 27 damage/round) = 547.7 damage/minute

Anyway, I don't see why you would ever offhand something other than Joyeuse. To maximize WSes, Martial Anelace seems like the clear winner to me. Whether ESword or Mensur fares better for normal melee hits in the mainhand is a much more complicated question as Armando alluded to, but the latent on ESword seems very attractive to me. As a guesstimate I would say that ESword would come out ahead over Mensur, unless you're solo fighting mobs far enough below your level that there's no need to be optimal.

[Armando]

Sadly I don't have much time next 'til my next class, so I'll have to run the numbers later. Check back in 5 hours lol.

[Zempten]

How often is the stone consumed? Like 1 stack an hr? or 1 stack/30mins? I mean an estimate

[Callisto]

I believe that 1 stone is consumed every time the effect procs. My friend uses Faith Bagknockers or w/e, generally in a 60 minute limbus he runs through about 2.5 bags of stones(stacks of 99). It's not bad considering practically any 1 sea mob drop will get you a pouch, and how easy they are to farm, you can easily get 5-10 pouches in an hour of hpemde farming.

[Taskmage]

How often is the stone consumed? Like 1 stack an hr? or 1 stack/30mins? I mean an estimateWell, at 236 delay, Justice Sword can swing 915 times in an hour if you're hacking at one thing nonstop. So if the effect procs 50%, you'd go through about 457 stones in an hour or 4.5 stacks. Perhaps a more useful figure would be 20-25 stones for a 3 minute fight. Cut that number roughly in half if you're dual wielding.

I don't have a Justice Sword (yet :3) so I can't confirm how close my estimate is, but based on the number from Callisto's friend it sounds about right.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

While this was actually targeted more for COR, I though't I'd link it (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/corsair/61933-single-wield-vs-dual-wield-joyeuse.html) anyway. COR uses Joyeue to a different end, though, we don't generally use it to do SwordWS or enspell, we use it to TP for Slug Shot :P

For purposes of this discussion, let us presume that you have Suppanomimi (sword skill+5, DW coefficient -0.05). Let us also presume the existence of a sword with the same DMG/delay rating as Joyeuse (D35/224).



If we are comparing single-wield vs. dual-wield Joyeuse, there are a few significant factors:



1) Dual-wielding reduces the frequency of a Joyeuse add'l attack proc. Normally, Joyeuse double attacks (2A) 50% of the time. That averages out to 1.5 attacks per round. When DWing Joy, that means that one hand averages 1 attack per round, and the other (Joy) averages 1.5 attacks per round. That's 2.5 attacks per DW round, or 1.25 attacks per hand.



2) DW2+Suppa gives an increase to attack speed, but reduces TP gain accordingly. The attack speed increase you get from DW2+Suppa will essentially counteract the faster attacking speed from a single-wield Joy, but it won't counteract the TP advantage.



In this scenario, it would seem apparent that single-wield Joy wins fairly decisively. However, in real-world application, most of the swords you'd pair with a Joy have better base damage/delay ratios, which might be enough to offset the increased TP gain from a single-wielded Joy. But this doesn't take into account SJs; if you are going to single-wield, you could be getting Accuracy Up from /RNG or Berserk from /WAR, so that's another advantage for single-wield.



Basically, in conclusion, I'd say: if you need shadows for protection and are forced to use /NIN anyway, single-wield vs. dual-wield is a tossup. If you don't need shadows, single-wield Joy should be significantly better (assuming you have a DD subjob).

[Callisto]

Heh, I had to pretty much play my RDM as if I was playing my COR to break my Expunger(Joyeuse for TP, then Sidewinder), it was pretty weird...made me want to level my COR again even more than I already do. At least I can simultaneously farm Bomb Ash for Firesand and work on my Dagger of Trials, so I'll be getting back to it at some point next week I hope.

[Armando]

STOP. HAMMER TIME. Time to compare Mensur/Joy to Enhancing/Joy. I'll start with the Hurricane Wyverns because it's a best-case-scenario for Enhancing Sword; if E-sword loses to Mensur against T mobs then it'll be even worse off against EPs. Max level for Hurricane Wyverns is 78. Assuming Wyverns as a race have C-ranked VIT and AGI (very few mob races have anything past C in stats) then...

Lv.78 Hurricane Wyvern
VIT = 77
Defense = 297 (332 before Dia II)
Evasion = 309 (318 before Gravity)

RDM A (Callisto's equipment, Mensur/Joyeuse)
Attack = 333 (305 + 28)
Accuracy = 295 (282 + 13)
Enspell = 23

RDM B (Enhancing/Joy)
Attack = 349 (305 + 44)
Accuracy = 303 (282 + 21)
Enspell = 27

Now let's see how they do. Enspell damage will be added to the average hit, and in the case of Joyeuse also multiplied by 1.5 (due to multi-hit.) WS is Savage Blade, assumes Mensur's hidden effect is active during WS and that Savage Blade's hit rate is the same as your normal hit rate.

RDM A vs Enemy
Ave. Hits = 68, 85.5
Ave. Crits = 119, 144
Hit rate = 62%
Ave. WS = 170.5

RDM B vs Enemy
Ave.Hits = 70, 96.75
Ave.Crits = 114, 155.25
Hit rate = 66%
Ave. WS = 186.78

Amazingly, it looks like Enhancing Sword actually wins this is you don't get too many resists on your enspells. However, the result would be different when your Attack is high, since Enhancing Sword's extra stats are less of an improvement the harder you hit.

[Callisto]

Amazingly, it looks like Enhancing Sword actually wins this is you don't get too many resists on your enspells. However, the result would be different when your Attack is high, since Enhancing Sword's extra stats are less of an improvement the harder you hit.

That's awesome Armando, thanks for putting some math to that. You saved me 550k in swords I don't have to buy now lol, I owe you a beer. :thumbsup:

Also, it means that my first choice of DW swords was the correct one, which provides further evidence of my awesomeness >.>

[massaranger]

i dont know all i know is i use MEpee/Joy it works very nice when im farming i /thf and joy and Tariqah for Accruacy / But i really want to get Blau Dotch/Joy which is Probably the best Combo for overall dmg. and low 178 delay and its latent effect and Witht the superior WS Eviscreation I would think that would be the best for now im stuck with savage blade :(

[Callisto]

Lv.78 Hurricane Wyvern
VIT = 77
Defense = 297 (332 before Dia II)
Evasion = 309 (318 before Gravity)


Ok this has gotten me interested in all this math stuff to use for other applications(namely finding the right setup to max out my Vorpal Blade damage), and I could stand to dust my brain off a little until I can get back into school. I found the formulas I need to figure that stuff out on the wiki, but I was wondering where you got the mob's stats to do the calculations, b/c I tried searching for this info online and couldn't find it. Is there some specific resource you use for this info?

[Aksannyi]

This has been bugging me for some time now.

What the fugg does it mean when you guys say "proc"? I have been trying and trying to figure out what this means, and I know it's some sort of formula-ish word that has to do with damage output or something like that in some kind of way, but I really need someone to explain to me what the hell it means.

Doing so would get you my eternal thanks and love.

[Callisto]

This has been bugging me for some time now.

What the fugg does it mean when you guys say "proc"? I have been trying and trying to figure out what this means, and I know it's some sort of formula-ish word that has to do with damage output or something like that in some kind of way, but I really need someone to explain to me what the hell it means.

Doing so would get you my eternal thanks and love.

I believe the actual word it is shorthand for is 'process', but it means when an effect of a weapon, spell, or ability actually activates. i.e., you cast Paralyze on a mob. When the mob loses a turn to Paralyze, and you get the 'XXX is paralyzed.' message, Paralyze just "proc'd". Also would be when something Double Attack, Parrying, or Additional Effect from a weapon goes off.

[Aksannyi]

Good god, it's so flipping obvious. Thank you.

[Mhurron]

This has been bugging me for some time now.
What the fugg does it mean when you guys say "proc"?
Effect kicks in.

Joyeuse Double attack procs 50% of the time = Half the time, a Joyeuse will hit twice.

Paralyze proced once on that mob = You suck (You cast paralyze and only one action was paralyzed)

[Armando]

Callisto: I got the mob stats from Studio Gobli's formulas. Nagamaki from Blue Gartr's forums explained how they work and checked their accuracy in this thread. (http://bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17450&start=330) From the numbers Nagamaki obtained from Enkidus (Lv.77-80 Golems), the formulas are as accurate as it gets. I'll give you a quick run-down of the formulas.

Base Stats (VIT, AGI, etc.)

Race Ranking + Main Job Ranking + Support Job Ranking * Support Job Revision

Rank Value
A 5+(Lv-1)*0.50
B 4+(Lv-1)*0.45
C 4+(Lv-1)*0.40
D 3+(Lv-1)*0.35
E 3+(Lv-1)*0.30
F 2+(Lv-1)*0.25
G 2+(Lv-1)*0.20

Important note: The Sub Job part is NOT calculated by plugging in the half-capped level through the above formulas. You use the same level as the main job level and multiply that by 0.5 (which would be the "Support Job Revision" factor.) According to Nagamaki, Studio Gobli claims that for mobs below Lv.30 the Support Job Revision is 0 (i.e. sub job stats aren't used) but the exact level at which that changes can vary by area.

All mobs are WAR/WAR unless specified otherwise (crabs and if I remember correctly, beetles as well, are PLD/PLD mobs.) For Hurricane Wyverns, I assumed Wyverns have C-ranked VIT. I considered this pretty fair, as most normal mob families have D-ranked VIT; crabs, and golems have C-ranked evasion, and of the mob families Studio Gobli has found VIT rankings for, only Beetles had a B. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=7;mid=1176162586317909445;page=1#11 7616465420483866) Normal mob families don't seem to have any A-ranked stats. In any case, even if Hurricane Wyverns have B-ranked VIT the outcome wouldn't be too different. So, the calculations for a Lv.78 Hurricane Wyvern would be...

Race Ranking (C) = 4 + (78-1) * 0.40 = 34.8 -> 34
Main Job Ranking (WAR, D) = 3 + (78-1) * 0.35 = 29.95 -> 29
Support Job Ranking (WAR, D) = 29 * 0.5 = 14.5 -> 14

Hurricane Wyvern VIT = 34 + 29 + 14 = 77

I calculated AGI the same way, once again assuming Wyverns have C-ranked AGI. The AGI number is 85 instead of 77 because WARs have C-ranked AGI as opposed to D-ranked VIT.

Defense and Evasion

Defense: (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank) + 8 + VIT/2 + Job Traits) * Race Trait
Evasion: (f(Lv, Job Evasion Rank) + AGI/2 + Job Traits

Rank Lv Lv1-50 Lv51+
A 6+[(Lv-1)*3.0] 153+[(Lv-50)*5.0]?
B 5+[(Lv-1)*2.9] 147+[(Lv-50)*4.9]?
C 5+[(Lv-1)*2.8] 142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]
D 4+[(Lv-1)*2.7] 136+[(Lv-50)*4.7]?
E 4+[(Lv-1)*2.5] 126+[(Lv-50)*4.5]

Basically, calculate the base Defense or Evasion with the formulas above. Most mobs have C-ranked Defense, and WARs have C-ranked Evasion, so that number will be the same for most mobs. Then, for Defense, just add 8, VIT/2 (drop decimals as usual) and Job Traits (10 from Defense Bonus I in most cases) and you have the total. Race Trait is 1.0 for most mobs. WARs lack Evasion Bonus so for total Evasion you just have to add AGI/2 in most cases. In the case of Lv.78 Hurricane Wyverns...

142 + [(78-50)*4.8] = 276.4 -> 276
Defense: 276 + 8 + (77/2) + 10 = 332
Evasion: 276 + (85/2) = 318

And there you have it.

[Callisto]

Kickass, thanks a ton. I've been trying to figure out a way to max my Vorpal Blade for awhile, and am currently debating trading in my Ogre Gloves for Pally or Alky Bracelets, but wanted to play with the #'s a bit and see if it'd be worth the change. I'll save that business for another thread though.

Thanks again!

[Armando]

Well, with current Ramuh prices, quite honestly, screw Alkyoneus's Bracelets. You could use Pallas's but I wouldn't pay 100k for +3 STR and -1 Acc. Besides, I'd wager Tarasque Mitts are better (though I haven't run the numbers.) If you can pay for Alky's, invest in Woodsman Rings, Amemet +1 and an Assault Earring instead. Oh, and Lifebelt > Warwolf for most purposes. You could also save yourself some money by selling the Spectacles and going with Chivalrous Chain instead.

The key to good Vorpals is a good hit rate. Remember that the odds of landing all hits in any WS go down as you add more hits. With a 70% hit rate you only have a 24% chance to land all 4 hits. With 80% you have a 41% chance, and with 90% you have a 65% chance.

[Callisto]

Yeah, I've also been tossing over the whole DEX- part, which it appears for the hand slot it's nearly impossible as RDM to get a decent STR boost without losing DEX. I'm still fuzzy as to which would be the best to boost for Vorpal, between STR, Acc, or DEX for the crit rate boost(my DEX as Elvaan RDM is abysmal, I'm under the impression that trying to boost it would be a waste of resources.)

I have a Thunder Gorget, but the consensus that I seem to find on those is that it does not do a whole lot for multi-hit WS, so I'm probably going to start leaving that in the MH and just keeping the Spectacles when using Vorpal. I'm about 6400/8000 to a Chiv Chain, been a little lazy on Assault(plus my COR shares the spectacles) but I do plan on getting one.

I'm probably going to ditch the Ogre Gloves either way, the DEX- probably isn't helping the Vorpal cause. Switching out the hands slot works will within my macro setup, so I will try to find something better to replace them. Tarasque Mitts are probably the most viable option since I can't get a decent STR piece in that slot w/o losing DEX.

I'll look into the Life Belt option as well since they got cheap. I guess my only concern is as a RDM melee stats come at a premium, and I need to figure out how much STR is worth giving up for the sake of Acc/Atk.

[Armando]

For all intents and purposes consider DEX only as a form of Accuracy unless you intend to make a crit build, which is another subject entirely. That entails breaking certain DEX-AGI tiers so that the DEX you add actually has a meaningful effect. Otherwise its effect on crit rate is practically non-existent. And that's even more situational than Mensur Epee vs Enhancing Sword since it becomes an all-or-nothing deal that depends entirely on what you're fighting and its level.

Can't comment on Sea Gorgets, can't use them yet.

As for..."I guess my only concern is as a RDM melee stats come at a premium, and I need to figure out how much STR is worth giving up for the sake of Acc/Atk."...well, it's pretty easy to figure it out. If you're soloing then you can easily get into the fSTR ranges in which every 4 STR is guaranteed to mean +1 fSTR (as opposed to needing 5 or 6 STR points.) 10 Acc means 5% more hit rate, and losing 1 fSTR from Warwolf Belt is definetely less than a 5% loss in total DMG regardless of your sword choice. Attack vs STR takes a bit more work to figure out but in general when your PDIF isn't high, Attack is better.Not gonna crunch the numbers right now but for T mobs Tarasque Mitts will likely help more.

[Callisto]

Many moons and Old Styles ago I was actually intelligent, but it seems that this has in time worn off, because I've lost myself trying to do some math on this. For example:

WSC = floor( floor((A x A%) + (B x B%)) x α )


What is the 'floor' they speak of? I've seen it as 'integer' too, I'm not sure what I'm missing but I don't know what that means LoL! :wtf:

Anyways, I'm trying to calculate what my current weaponskill damage is like vs. Greater Colibri, and then figure it if I dropped 11 STR(in favor of 10 atk and 10 acc).

I understand the WSD = (D + fSTR + WSC) * ftP) * PDIF equation, but I seem to be missing a couple of pieces when figuring it out.

Using a level 81 Greater Colibri as my target(I'm going to go ahead and use Nagamaki's #'s here, because he's most likely smarter than I am.

DEF 322
EVA 336
VIT 67

I'll assume that my STR is still 90, and my Atk as RDM/DRK is 381(8 + 252(sword skill) +45(str/2) +44(gear) + 32(atk bonus I+II). This Atk seems high to me actually, I'm at work so I can't check my actual atk, but I don't think it's that high as RDM/DRK...am I doing something wrong on the equation here?

If I understand correctly the things I can plug in so far are:

D = 40(Enhancing Sword)
fSTR = Lost here, I figured out my dSTR would be 23 and my weapon rank would be a 4, but can't quite figure out how to turn these into fSTR.
WSC = floor?((90 * .3) * .83 = floor(22) (22.41 rounded down--wtf is floor?)
fTP = 1.0 OMFG SOMETHING EASY--THANK YOU!!
PDIF = .916min 1.056max

This is all I could figure out on my own, and I probably made a mess of it. If you could help me figure out what my current WSD is, and what kind of effect losing 8-11 STR would have, I'd appreciate it. :wasted:

[Armando]

Floor basically means to drop all decimals (as you can see, it's an operation that's used quite a bit in all the equations.) Basically, both modifiers get added with their decimals still intact, then the sum gets its decimals dropped. Then you multiply that by alpha/level correction factor/whatever you want to call it and drop the decimals from that product.

By the way don't add Attack Bonuses. When they say Attack Bonus II is +22 Attack, that's assuming Attack Bonus I is completely overwritten. If you wanted to think of them separately then it'd be +10 from AtkBonus1 and another +12 for AtkBonus2. So your Attack would be 371. I believe it's correct.

For fSTR, you'd go to VZX's FFXI Doc (http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/index.htm) and look at the fSTR2 table (http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/fstr2.htm). Look up the fSTR2 value for your STR difference and weapon Rank, and halve that value (fSTR = fSTR2/2, fSTR2 is used for Ranged Attacks.) In your case it'd be floor(13/2) = 6.

Don't forget to take crits into account if you're going to be looking at Vorpal Blade.

[Callisto]

Ahh thanks so much for clearing those up! I've been wondering how the math end of the game worked for some time now, you've been a huge help with my understanding of this stuff.

I've been a melee RDM pretty much forever, and I got flak for it for a long time until I decided to be good enough at it to shut people up. Especially against Greater Colibri, when if I'm not main healing RDM is flat out boring to play if I don't melee. I spent ages capping my Enhancing Magic and combat skills, got ridiculously lucky to get an ESword for a price that would make many RDMs seek out mob violence against me if they found out, and now I'm trying to focus on optimizing my gear so that I can not only hit the VT mobs, but do some respectable damage when I do. The only problem was I had no idea what kind of STR/Atk/Acc ratio I should have been looking for. You've saved me probably 800k+ in gil and hours of experimenting with gear by explaining this stuff to me, I really appreciate it.

[Armando]

It's no problem.

By the way, you should run some numbers for Joyeuse vs Enhancing Sword single-wielded. As good as Enhancing Sword is, I don't think it can outweigh Joyeuse's 50% extra hits and 50% extra WS's. E-sword won compared to Mensur Epee when dual wielding because the extra Acc/Attack/Enspell damage was being added to both hands, whereas Mensur Epee's higher DMG/sec only applied to itself (i.e. half of your hits) not necessarily because Enhancing Sword on its own is all-around better than Mensur Epee. Plus, Joyeuse itself is stronger overall than Mensur when damage types aren't an issue.

[WishMaster3K]

I use Joyeuse against Undead and I cast Banish as /PLD because I'm just soul-blindingly awesome.

But I'm biased, because this is the only sword that can even come close to having me feasibly keep up with melee. When my friend is on MNK he can get TP almost Twice as fast as me when I'm in my current setup.. And I barely keep up to his NIN...

I'd say that ultimately, Justice Sword + Joyeuse is the best combination. But I'm a TP whore.

[Callisto]

Yeah I still toy with the two of them from time to time to compare. I play on 360 so I can't exactly parse things out, it's pretty much just done by eyeballing damage and roughly monitoring killspeed. I can't say the exact #'s, but honestly I can't find a noticeable difference in effectiveness between the two most of the time. It really does seem to even out due to the higher Enspell/WS damage/hit rate of the ESword, despite the slower swinging.

I currently use Joyeuse for farming Easy Prey or less, when I'm likely to be /THF and not have Vorpal, and generally have a good accuracy boost over the mob. For T+ I have yet to see the Joyeuse effect make up for the additional damage of the ESword effects.

Then there's also the aesthetic appeal of wearing a sword that used to sell for 16m when people check you. At any rate, it's certainly nice to have the option to choose between the two of them.

My largest issue before was a large misunderstanding of A) how weaponskill damage worked and B) what mob stats were like. I greatly overestimated what mob Def and Vit were like on xp-level enemies. I had assumed that Vorpal was doing low damage against Greater Colibri because I wasn't hitting hard enough, when in reality I was just likely missing 2-3 swings of Vorpal on a consistent basis(which would also explain the huge difference that Souleater made, thanks to the hidden acc boost from it.)

Running the #'s on my acc real quick, I was at about 304, a solid 30 under a Greater Colibri. If I make a couple of changes, toss on a life belt and even that ridiculously ugly OHat, I'm more in the 320 zone. I'd lose 5 STR from the belt, but with sole I'd be at pretty much the same, and I intend to upgrade to Chiv Chain and Amemet +1 soon, so it won't be too bad. My acc in the new set would come out to something closer to 370 with food, not quite the 80+% range but I'm sure my Vorpals would be noticeably more consistent.

I'm going to buy the life belt tonight and the tarasque mitts as soon as one comes on sale, then I can start testing things out. Then I just have to con some friends into coming out to Colibri for me so that I can test my new toys(I also want to test my Expunger/Sleep Arrow pulling on the Colibri while I'm there).

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I'm going off topic here, but does anyone know how to factor blind into accuracy calculations? Mostly I'm curious how to calculate my evasion rate against a set enemy when the RDM casts blind.

I'm fairly familiar with the formulas for accuracy and WS damage since I've done calculations for my ranged accuracy and Sidewinder damage. Some day I'd like to be able to trio Abraxas with a SAM/RNG, THF/NIN, and RDM/WHM party of friends. Mostly we would be using shadows and Seigan + Third Eye to avoid taking too much damage.

Thank you in advance ^_^

Ryoii - 73 SAM/RNG
Nonomii - 73 RDM/WHM

[Callisto]

I have been unable to find a % decrease that Blind does(I'm assuming it's a % decrease with a certain cap of acc down) unfortunately. It's kind of one of those things you just cast because it helps, regardless of how much it does. Just an absolutely blind(no pun intended) guess, compared to other spells, I would assume that the effect varies depending on your INT - Mob's INT, with a cap that I'd guess be around 25-30%. Again this is completely baseless speculation drawing from how other enfeebles work, so I make no claim about being right.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Does Blind really have a noticable effect on a RDM while soloing VT enemies?

When I use the player equations for hit-rate and reverse them for evasion-rate, it looks rather hopeless for a RDM to evade at greater than the minimum against VT enemies.

Example: Equipmentless Lv75 Hume RDM/WHM and a Generic Lv78 WAR/WAR Enemy

Assuming enemy ACC is similar to EVA
Enemy Accuracy: f(Lv, Job Accuracy Rank) + DEX/2 + Job Traits
Job Accuracy Rank (WAR, A?) = 147 + [(78-50)*4.9] = 284.2 -> 284

Assuming enemy DEX is similar to VIT
Enemy Dexterity: Race Ranking + Main Job Ranking + Support Job Ranking * Support Job Revision
Race Ranking (B?) = 4 + (78-1) * 0.45 = 36.45 -> 36
Main Job Ranking (WAR, B?) = 4 + (78-1) * 0.45 = 36.45 -> 36
Support Job Ranking (WAR, B?) = 4 + (78-1) * 0.45 = 36.45 -> 36

Converting Hit-Rate to Evasion-Rate
Hit-rate = 75% + [Defender Evasion - Attacker Accuracy + (Defender Level - Attacker Level) * 4] * 0.5%
Evasion-rate = 100% - Hit-Rate
Evasion-rate = 100% - 75% - [Defender Evasion - Attacker Accuracy + (Defender Level - Attacker Level) * 4] * 0.5%
Evasion-rate = 25% - [Defender Evasion - Attacker Accuracy + (Defender Level - Attacker Level) * 4] * 0.5%

Final Evasion-Rate Calculation
Equipmentless Lv75 Hume RDM/WHM Evasion = 210 (Base D Ranked RDM Evasion Skill)
Equipmentless Lv75 Hume RDM/WHM Agility = 59 (Based on FFXI Stat Predictor v2.0)
Generic Lv78 WAR/WAR Enemy Accuracy = 284
Generic Lv78 WAR/WAR Enemy Dexterity = 108

Evasion-rate = 25% - [f(210 + 59 * 0.5) - f(284 + 108 * 0.5) + ((75 - 78) * 4)] * 0.5%
Evasion-rate = 25% - [239 - 338 - 12] * 0.5%
Evasion-rate = 25% - 55%
Evasion-rate = -30%

Let's assume there is a lower limit of 5% on evasion similar to accuracy having an upper limit of 95%. Our RDM would need more than 70 more evasion to get over the lower limit. Do we really think the Blind spell can provide this much of a help? Are enemies much less accurate than I estimate? Does Blind just flat out increase evasion after the lower limit is applied?

Anyway these are just my thoughts. I look forward to all comments, in-game experiences, and criticisms.

Also if anyone has suggestions on how to test some of this theory, I would be willing to work on it with my accounts. I have one account with a Lv73 RDM/WHM and one with a Lv41 NIN/WAR with a bit of evasion gear. Would Lv45 Guardian Crawlers which are spawned with Rolanberry be a good enemy for some experiements? Is there anything wrong with using a NM?

[Callisto]

Does Blind really have a noticable effect on a RDM while soloing VT enemies?

No parser or math needed on this one lol, the answer is No. As a RDM I will evade just as much like a brick against a VT mob regardless of Blind's effect, I can say that from practical experience, RDM's Eva skill is just too low to make up for it. Even as /NIN with a bit more eva added, I still almost never get 'missed' by a VT mob, it's just possible to tank them b/c of FC5 making my Utsu timer so low. However, as far as in game experience, I can say that NINs and THFs who have tanked things for me have said that Blind/Kura make a noticeable difference for their eva rates. This is where I came up with the 25%~ idea, because that would be enough of a swing to throw them into a noticealbly different hit rate tier.

As far as the actual math, there's honestly nothing I can figure out without a parser and a rough idea of how strong Blind really is. I would think you could get a rough idea of it by doing controlled tests in PvP with a parser, but I'm a console player so that's beyond my means. :wasted:

[Armando]

As a PLD, I only evade 5% on high T to very low VT enemies (this obviously excludes Flash.) Including Blind bumped it up to 7%. On anything higher than the lowest VTs it probably won't have any effect at all, and it certainly won't after I equip my DD gear.

Also, don't apply our formulas to mobs (well, don't use the same parameters.) They damage us definetely and I'd eat my fictional hat to wager that their hit rate formulas are different, or have different limits.

Blind is probably something small like -10 Accuracy. Possibly up to -20. But hey, it costs an absurdly small amount of MP to use.

[Vevau]

Effect kicks in.

[...]

Paralyze proced once on that mob = You suck (You cast paralyze and only one action was paralyzed)

Thank you for clarifying that, I was almost certain :-)

But if Paralyze procs once on a mob that hits for 30+ it's good, 6mp saves 8mp (Cure I or Pollen). Now if thats a high-level (my highest is rdm52) exp mob I presume it would be hitting for 90+ so thats more like 24mp saved as a Cure II that someone didn't need to cast, so as a Red Mage, its great as it saves MP which is what we are really about :evil:

Ergo, Paralyze is a fantastic effect, especially in the form of Ice Spikes, every time it procs it saves HP, Shadows or Stoneskin, and as Ice Spikes does a little damage.

PS If this makes sense blame drink, it wasn't meant to

[Aeni]

As a PLD, I only evade 5% on high T to very low VT enemies (this obviously excludes Flash.) Including Blind bumped it up to 7%. On anything higher than the lowest VTs it probably won't have any effect at all, and it certainly won't after I equip my DD gear.

Also, don't apply our formulas to mobs (well, don't use the same parameters.) They damage us definetely and I'd eat my fictional hat to wager that their hit rate formulas are different, or have different limits.

Blind is probably something small like -10 Accuracy. Possibly up to -20. But hey, it costs an absurdly small amount of MP to use.

The only thing about it is if it's duration is short, then you'll be spending a load of time keeping it up and thus prolong the fight (While your other buffs tend to also wear and you'll have to spend more time reapplying them - vicious cycle of extending those fights)

I, however, agree that it's a trivial cost (mp wise) to reapply Blind and to keep it up (casting time) ... this obviously gets better mileage when you have Utsusemi (Ni) to lessen the effect of having to spend so much time reapplying buffs/debuffs as well as, ironically, in very prolonged fights (reason being, %-wise, the return becomes more appreciative over a greater length of time where the damage nullified accumulates and becomes mp-conserved)



...



I have a question which may have already been addressed before, but I need to ask this anyway. Before I get to level 74 (When I have access to Utsusemi Ni - NIN 37) ... which is a better option for soloing on RDM?

RDM/NIN Dual Wielding (Not sure what combination of weapons)
-or-
RDM/XXX Sword (or En-spelled Dagger) + Shield?


(note: only subjob available that is leveled up to my 67 RDM are WHM, BLM and NIN ... WAR is at 19 and SAM at 22)

[WishMaster3K]

RDM/NIN Single-Wielding Joyeuse.

Edit:
Ok, there's more.

To be honest, if I'm fighting something like the Sheep in the Mire, or for that matter, ANYTHING that is EM or lower (except for Demons... I don't eff with Demons unless I have /NIN), I have enough defensive abilities to be able to fight them on just Phalanx alone.

Genbu Shield, Jelly Ring and Cheviot Cape, coupled with Phalanx and Protect IV and if I feel like it, Bream Sushi or Tav Tacos.

That's my standard Def setup, and It works where I can fight DCs and EPs without Stoneskin, and Just Cure III when my HP gets into the Yellow. I find that Stoneskin takes too long to cast for my own personal tastes.


But for EMs or lower, I /PLD or /WAR, and either way works fine and gives me Offensive and Defensive traits in their own right, so it's really a matter of personal play style and tastes.

I know people who'll swear by /BLM when they solo, but I don't like having to sleep a mob when I want to reapply my entire line of buffs and/or Stoneskin (I learned that from Grendal, and that's how I soloed Crabs when I was in my 60s.)

[Aeni]

/throws rocks at WM

1. I'm only 67 (I think I stated that)
2. Jelly Rings, etc not in my possession (Or I'd have them if anyone on LS shows up)

:P

But, honestly, even if I used BLM as a sub, Sleep would be a waste for me due to the fact that, gasp, DOTs play a huge role in my soloing. Sure, the ticks of lol5ptdmglol might not seem much, but since my fights are longed and dragged (I blame fast leveling and all my melee skills lower than Ross-Dress-For-Less prices) I need everything I can to bring that monster just that much closer to death.

Right now, it looks like I should level up Paladin? Argh ... to think I'd have to endure the slings of outrageous misfortunes and I'm a Mithra at that ... curse you.