Do you plan to help WHM heal more efficiently?

[Pteryx]

While I applaud your intent to make some of the overly easy ToAU mobs somewhat more difficult, this move doesn't solve the deeper problems that current partying trends have revealed. One of those problems is that despite the white mage having stronger healing spells available than the red mage, the red mage is simply a better healer in party situations, especially when the amount of damage being taken isn't especially high and one wishes to minimize the number of back-line members. Due to the Refresh spell and Convert ability, the red mage is far less prone to running out of MP than the white mage; this is a key advantage in party play, where the ability to fight continuously against enemies is prized. However, to weaken or remove these abilities would harm the red mage greatly, and to grant similar benefits to the white mage would dilute the red mage's uniqueness.

Therefore, to make the white mage compete with the red mage as a healer outside of endgame applications, the white mage's healing must become significantly and undeniably more MP-efficient than the red mage's in experience point party situations. While there are ways in which the white mage is already more efficient than the red mage, many of these are either too slow to be useful, too dangerous to attempt, too inapplicable to the typical experience point party, too easy for the population at large to overlook, or all of the above.

In light of the fact that this would improve the balance between red and white mages with all that implies, and how simply the problem could potentially be solved, do you plan to help WHM heal more efficiently? -- Pteryx, aka Kamiel@Midgardsormr

[Feba]

I wonder if anyone actually reads the rules before they ask SE a question.

You know, I honestly don't blame them for not replying.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I wonder if anyone actually reads the rules before they ask SE a question.

You know, I honestly don't blame them for not replying.
I don't think a second set of questions was ever even sent out to SE for them to answer.

[Mhurron]

WHM is already the most efficient healer in the game, Regens and curega spells plus a high Cure with much less enmity gain guarantee that. If you think RDM is chosen for burns because of curing efficiency, none of your 'solutions' are going to do anything to change that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I wonder if anyone actually reads the rules before they ask SE a question.

You know, I honestly don't blame them for not replying.

He asked a question.

That's better than all of Legal Fish's questions. He actually thinks this is the "Tell SE they are morons" forum.


WHM is already the most efficient healer in the game, Regens and curega spells plus a high Cure with much less enmity gain guarantee that. If you think RDM is chosen for burns because of curing efficiency, none of your 'solutions' are going to do anything to change that.


RDM is invited for MP efficiency and the fact their cures are more than up to the task. WHM has to rest, RDM does not often have to rest, if at all. Cure IV + Refresh + Convert + /WHM help make RDM more than adequate for the task. And Healing skill is so flawed as it stands that anyone that hits the cap get the same level of benefit a WHM would.

RDM has endurance on its side, WHM does not. The problem for WHM is they're forced to depend on COR, BRD and RDM to get MP back. WHM needs to gain MP endurance by some means and so far /SMN, Sanction and a Vermillon Cloak or Noble's Tunic is about it.

[Feba]

That's better than all of Legal Fish's questions.

Doing something smarter than dumbassery is not intelligence.

[Pteryx]

Since I'm big on actually making suggestions for implementation, even if just for starting people's thought processes, I'm preserving my more specific suggestions here.


A possible first step to take in improving white mage healing efficiency would be to make Regen II and Regen III as MP-efficient as the original Regen is, whether by lowering the costs or by increasing the durations. This would encourage more efficient play on the part of white mages and reward the effort put into such an intelligent tactic, helping to make them stand out as healers even in party situations. An additional step that could be made with regard to these spells would be to make the casting time of Regen II shorter than that of Regen, and Regen III's shorter still, much like ninjutsu casting times. This would make it so that even a white mage who favors playing as efficiently as possible would be able to react quickly to emergency situations, and further encourage the spells' usage.

A second step that could be taken would be to give the white mage an inherent Cure Potency job trait at middling and high levels, out of reach of those using white mage as a support job but still low enough to make a difference for white mages who are competing with red mages' MP-recovery ability. A trait that grants a 40th-level white mage an additional 10% to cure potency would give even white mages of modest skill an efficiency advantage that party leaders would notice. This could be increased by an additional 5% at level 75, further encouraging players to invite a white mage over a red mage as a healer for merit parties. If one wished to implement a more complex but also more party-specific solution, one could additionally grant the white mage a trait that increases cure potency with the EXP chain or limit chain, perhaps starting at level 60 -- perhaps 1% per chain number, with a maximum of 20% additional potency. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I personally think as far as any non-ToA jobs go (aside from this update, anyway) that its a "wait and see" time for adjustments.

ToA jobs didn't bring too much subjob potential to the table, though /BLU is good in some areas and /COR decent for BRD in some situations. /PUP is nice for the first 10 levels then you put it away. New jobs may bring new subjob potentials to the table that address present issues.

I'm holding out hope that SE will implement Chemist as a class. My fantasy is that the job would be tool-based like NIN and COR are known to be, but for support "item" spells. I've always taken to giving my FFT WHMs Chemist support skills so that when MP gets low, there's still items to fall back on. I think tool-based cures could level things out for any kind of healer and give WHM and even SMN the MP endurance that they presently lack. But, again, that's just my idea.

I agree that Healing skill does need to be relevant, but the question isn't the Cure and Regen spells themselves, but WHM's endurance vs RDM's.

[Aeni]

How would making a WHM more attractive?

Change the death penalty so that dying now costs 25% of your total exp (TNL) for that level.

Now ... make it so that R1 will only salvage 30% of that loss exp. But R2 can salvage roughly 75% and R3 95%.

Make R2 and R3 also reduce the length of the ressurection sickness. R2 will cut the time in half while R3 will reduce it by 2/3.

What does this mean? This means that, no matter how great your awesome TP burn is going, if even a couple of deaths occur, it will negate w/e advantage a TP burn is gaining w/o a WHM to the point it is on par with a "traditional setup."

Also give monsters more one shot moves that affect job classes w/o block/shield ratings.

...


BTW, it's not a serious suggestion. Don't even take anything I said here in this thread seriously. I know it's difficult to balance off a game and make an unpopular job popular again. I just wish the good folks over at SE much luck in figuring this tricky problem out.

[Pteryx]

I feel that this particular issue is important, so I'm bumping it for the question window. -- Pteryx

[Karinya]

I think the problem is monsters so weak a rdm/whm can cover all your healing and support needs. If you have two healers a rdm+whm will beat two of either job and the problem pretty much goes away.

It wouldn't hurt for whms to have a cure potency trait, or a trait that reduces hate gained by healing (would be very nice for Curagas), or even some more advanced protective spells like Stoneskin II (like Phalanx II, it can be cast on party members; stronger per person than Earthen Ward, but if you want to cover everyone you'd have to cast it 6 times). But I think more challenging monsters would restore the value of the 3 person backline and WHM as a part of it, even without additional changes to the system; so it might be better to do that first and then see if additional changes are needed.

[Gentoo]

I certainly don't disagree with you Karinya, however...

While the problem might be that the monsters aren't up to snuff, I don't think it's realistic to think that SE would ratchet up the monster difficulty to pre-ToAU levels.

When that other MMO that shall not be named came onto the scene, there were plenty of comparisons drawn to the relative ease of XP on it's fauna versus the grind FFXI heaped on the players. Arguablly, [parts of] ToAU can be said to have been designed specifically to address this disparity. Like it or not, it's difficult to argue that the high XP, low damage, low HP monsters aren't a popular addition, and I doubt SE would remove something that's been such a hit.

So, the job that's specifically designed to be the best healer cannot fulfill it's role. Barring that the environment will change to bring various jobs back into balance makes Pteryx's core question salient; do you plan to help WHM heal more efficiently?

[Karinya]

Well, if they intend to keep monsters helpless forever, then jobs that are designed to keep the party alive in the face of fierce attacks are going to be useless forever. At least in exp. You don't need a more powerful healer when you're fighting wimps; you just need one that can keep going and going and going, and I don't think anyone is ever going to replace RDM as the Energizer Bunny. (I hope not. The idea of a job with *more* endurance than RDM has now is pretty scary.)

By similar logic, you also don't need a tougher tank; you need one that's also a DD (or just a bunch of guys with shadows).

[Malacite]

The simple fix to this is to change healing magic once again to more heavily reflect on cures and to remove the soft caps.


If a WHM can heal as much HP or close to with a Cure 3 as a RDM can with Cure 4 due to sheer skill level, then Refresh and Convert won't be as much of an issue (and SE could boost PLD's healing skill level while they're at it too)

This would also go along way towards nerfing /WHM and making SE realize just how broken SMN is.

[Karinya]

So you want to completely destroy SMN in order to slightly weaken RDM (which actually has quite good healing skill, better than PLD I think - and you know how often SE changes multiple interacting things at once)?

I think that would be a very bad idea, whether it did anything to help WHM or not.

The simple fix is to encourage parties to fight monsters where having a WHM *and* a RDM is a good idea if you want to live, not a waste of space that could pack in another WAR/NIN. There's no reason they have to fight each other for party space - that's solely an artifact of today's DD-heavy massacre-the-helpless parties.

[IfritnoItazura]

I don't think it'd completely destroy SMNs, but their Blood Pacts should be revised substantially if curing from /WHM is heavily nerfed.

[Akashimo]

I don't think it'd completely destroy SMNs, but their Blood Pacts should be revised substantially if curing from /WHM is heavily nerfed.
Fix bps, change so smn/whm curing is gimped like war/blm nuking and we'd all be set.

[Yellow Mage]

I don't think it'd completely destroy SMNs, but their Blood Pacts should be revised substantially if curing from /WHM is heavily nerfed.

That, and make each avatar worth keeping out. You're paying massive amounts of MP to sustain a god, for crying out loud: it should at least leave a feeling of hurt on your enemies, even in between the Blood Pacts.

Do that, and you're set. Maybe adjust the spirits a tad, for extra credit.

[Malacite]

Honestly, it's about the only way to make SE snap out of their dementia.

We're not advocating breaking SMN here, because it's already broken. The point is to give /WHM the shit kick it so rightly deserves (why should it be exempt from the same poor performance other mage subs have?) and giving WHM and PLD a strong boost to their healing abilities. This in turn forces SE to re-evaluate SMN as a whole and thus focus on turning the job into what it should be, a summoner. Not WHM v.2 + pets

[Saren]

If we are talking exp parties then I believe whm could do with some sort of adjustment to give us better endurance. I was a hell of a lot more excited about my dark staff than I was my light staff.

Whm shouldn't be the only job that can solo main heal an exp party. Not that many people play it as a main job and turning it into a required slot is only going to turn it into what Bard was until recently, and make finding an exp party more difficult. If you want people to be able to exp fairly easily there need to be at least a couple of options for each role.

Honestly I am not sure that whm should be nerfed as a sub. I'd like to see healing skill do a bit more than it does now but not to the extent that /whm cures are the jokes that /blm nukes are. Whm is a very powerful sub and instead of making it useless, perhaps it might be a better idea to make the other mage jobs a bit more useful as subs.

[Akashimo]

I doubt that'll fix the problem if they make the other mage jobs more useful as subs to smn. Cause they'll still /whm. Its burned into the curse style of smn healing. We have to make it less apealing for /whm by making cures a joke like /blm nukes. For a good support role as smn, I see /brd /cor and maybe /pup good options. May not have access to the best of the main jobs would, but, it gives them something to add so something different can be used as buffs by all support roles.

[Malacite]

Why /PUP? You can only have a single pet out.

What would be cool, is if /WHM boosted healing blood pacts, and /BLM boosted Magical (Offensive) Blood Pacts like Tier 2/4 Elemental Spells and Nightmare. (Would be great if SMN could be made a more attractive sub for WHM and BLM in return as well but I'm not quite sure how)

As for boosting avatar HP/Melee etc, that should really be derived from Summoning Magic Skill (which I still maintain has next to no influence worth mentioning. Stupid +skill bandaid fix...)

[Akashimo]

/pup to do a random flash or cure inbetween bps

[Malacite]

But wouldn't it be great if healing magic skill would buff healing blood pacts the same way it does for Blue Magic?

SMN would become a spike healer! Instead of relying on their huge MP pool to toss out a bunch of lolCures, they could sub WHM for the healing skill and let loose with a big healing pact.

This is where SMN fails IMO. There's no need to rely on the sub job as much as it does. I'd much rather see the job rely on using it's MP on blood pacts efficiently (spending big MP for big effects) and when damage is needed, fueling all their MP into offensive pacts and keeping the avatar out. Enough of this /WHM and curing bull crap.


Sorry for the derail ^^

[lionx]

In addition to the things said above with Cure Potency +%, less enmity for Cures, faster Regen casting, Tier II buffs on others, /WHM, and weakness duration reduction with higher tier Raises....

One of the things that irks me a lil, is that WHM cannot dispel certain status effects. Yes we do get to cure alot of status effects, but with the exception of Petrification, everyone else can sub WHM and get the same level of efficiency as us with removing status effects. If we can have more uniqueness in this regard, and be able to remove things like Charm, Amnesia, Fear/Terror, or even maybe Doom, it might also help us in being more desirable as well.

It just doesnt feel right that when you reach 75, there is only one status effect removal spell thats unique to you...=/ I am sure its very convenient to have a RDM or SMN be able to remove status debuffs, but the point is that as the best healer in the game...shouldnt you be able to remove these negative buffs...?

Random thoughts: I also toyed with the idea of Scan, but i guess that goes to Scholars X3 Or maybe a Concentration buff for faster casting, Pax for lower enimity for a person...but thats just throwing things out to think about.

[Karinya]

Doom can be removed by Cursna, it just doesn't always succeed.

It *would* be nice for whms to get spells to remove amnesia, terror, maybe even charm. There's plenty more status ailments, no need to stop the -na spell series at 39. Now that amnesia and terror are no longer HNM-only status and can be used by every imp and hippogryph around, it doesn't make so much sense for them to be uncounterable.

But wouldn't it be great if healing magic skill would buff healing blood pacts the same way it does for Blue Magic?
You mean, not at all? BLU/WHM has divine seal and higher MND than BLU/something else, that's it. Healing magic skill has no effect on blue magic heals, which use blue magic skill.

It *would* be cool if Divine/Elemental Seals worked on blood pacts, I think; but it's also kind of logical that it doesn't: you're using those abilities on yourself, not on your avatar. Now if *Carby* had divine seal and you could get him to use it before HRII...

[lionx]

Doom can be removed by Cursna, it just doesn't always succeed.

A 100% remove from a WHM wouldnt be too unfair i would think. Really does make it feel as if they are the best healers if they can remove Doom via Cursna 100% or have a seperate spell for that, while the other mages are not able. Especially sub WHMs >_>;

[Necropolis]

While making healing magic count as something would force SE to do something about SMNs in exp, I think it would take the community as a whole too long to make it a smooth transition.

MP based DDs already have enough problems getting invites, if you removed SMNs ability to cure effectly you'd screw over a lot of people. Nearly forcing SMNs to solo to 75 exclusivly.

SMNs are a highly sought out job for endgame, and they can do amazing damage on demand, much like blm. And I don't think I've ever seen a SMN main heal in an endgame setting. It would be hard to tweak them were they are useful in exp outside of cures and not disrupt thier already over-powered pacts in endgame.

On the WHM front I'd rather see something like a conserve MP trait based on healing magic skill. Not something that proc'd 100% of the time, but perhaps more often than the BLM counter part. This I don't believe would be over powered as the spells are fairly low MP cost anyways, but would let you squeeze a few more chains out of a WHM's MPs. Nor would it break thier endgame roles either.

Personally I do not think fixing one job should break how another job is played. By making healing magic dependant on skill you'd never have a back up healer. Why would or should a blm sub whm in exp if thier cures will do significantly less? Same with bard. By changing cures to a skill based spell you'd remove the vast majority of support healing, putting more pressure on whms and rdms to do all the curing. That in the long run will not help whm invites, but only slow down exp for everyone.

[Ziero]

So like, I believe SE basically said "Yes" to this 'make Whm heal better' concept by adding Scholar and the Whie Grimoire buffs that affect all White magic cast.

....though why there's so much talk of Smn in a 'fix Whm' topic is beyond me

[Necropolis]

....though why there's so much talk of Smn in a 'fix Whm' topic is beyond me

Because there was talk of break any job that subs whm by making healing skill the main determinant in cures. SMN being one of those jobs that depend on the whm support job to gain any exp in a party setting (and often solo).

[Lunaryn]

So like, I believe SE basically said "Yes" to this 'make Whm heal better' concept by adding Scholar and the Whie Grimoire buffs that affect all White magic cast.
I don't think that's at all in evidence. A lot has been said about the potential use for RDM; it's pretty easy to see how this could simply make the healer/support of choice for meleeburn shift from RDM/WHM to {White Grimoire} ONRY RDM/SCH...

[Pteryx]

I don't think that's at all in evidence. A lot has been said about the potential use for RDM; it's pretty easy to see how this could simply make the healer/support of choice for meleeburn shift from RDM/WHM to {White Grimoire} ONRY RDM/SCH...

I have to agree. A subjob that enhances white magic could be used by WHM or RDM; it wouldn't do a thing to make WHM a better healer than a RDM. Especially given that people tend to avoid fighting mobs that give status conditions in the first place except for imps, where the name of the game is to kill them too fast for the statuses to matter anyway. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Doom can be removed by Cursna, it just doesn't always succeed.

It *would* be nice for whms to get spells to remove amnesia, terror, maybe even charm. There's plenty more status ailments, no need to stop the -na spell series at 39. Now that amnesia and terror are no longer HNM-only status and can be used by every imp and hippogryph around, it doesn't make so much sense for them to be uncounterable.


You mean, not at all? BLU/WHM has divine seal and higher MND than BLU/something else, that's it. Healing magic skill has no effect on blue magic heals, which use blue magic skill.

It *would* be cool if Divine/Elemental Seals worked on blood pacts, I think; but it's also kind of logical that it doesn't: you're using those abilities on yourself, not on your avatar. Now if *Carby* had divine seal and you could get him to use it before HRII...


False. It boosts Healing Breeze, Wild Carot and Magic Fruit quite a bit.

[Necropolis]

False. It boosts Healing Breeze, Wild Carot and Magic Fruit quite a bit.

False; the added MND from /whm is what boost the cures, not the healing magic skill. You can test this easily by taking a Blu/Whm and casting the various spells, then go /nin and add mind gear and you'll find they cure for the same amount.

Healing skill doesn't effect blu in anyway other than if they actually cast spells from the Cure line. And typically it doesn't matter since it will cure for cap anyways.

[Karinya]

Personally I do not think fixing one job should break how another job is played. By making healing magic dependant on skill you'd never have a back up healer. Why would or should a blm sub whm in exp if thier cures will do significantly less? Same with bard. By changing cures to a skill based spell you'd remove the vast majority of support healing, putting more pressure on whms and rdms to do all the curing. That in the long run will not help whm invites, but only slow down exp for everyone.
Hear, hear. Support healing is good for the game; don't take it away just so that one job will be horribly hosed and *maybe* eventually improved in other ways. (Imagine if they didn't do anything else to SMN...)

Anyway, I think this topic is ill timed. With new jobs coming up, not to mention new monsters and camps and potentially other balance changes as well, it's pointless to argue about what should be done to the game as it exists now: the WotG changes are already coming, and any future balancing will have to be done using that as a baseline. And we aren't informed enough about them yet to say much, even if SE had any intention of listening.

I agree that WHM had problems in the ToAU era (although I think they were largely side effects of the ludicrously excessive rewards of underhunting). But the ToAU era is drawing to a close in a few weeks in any event; not everything about it will be the same in WotG.

[Malacite]

Eh, no. I personally tested it and I've noticed some big boosts in performance on /WHM compared to say /RDM or /BLM, and this is only a few points of MND being lost on those subs.

There are a lot of BLU who swear by healing skill and I'm among them.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Healing_Breeze

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Fruit


even the wiki entries list it.

[Electricity Gone Human]

I don't think that's at all in evidence. A lot has been said about the potential use for RDM; it's pretty easy to see how this could simply make the healer/support of choice for meleeburn shift from RDM/WHM to {White Grimoire} ONRY RDM/SCH...
If this ever happens in an EXP Party, I will find the development team and punch them all in the face. RDM/SCH shouldn't have to be further pidgeonholed like that.

Even if White Grimoire fucks up Dispel and other Black Magic Spells, what's it even worth to use them anyway when monsters are dropping like flies?

[Akashimo]

naw they'll be uber manaburn rdms from less mp usages on refreshies ;
Plus, they made dancer as a dding healer o_O talk about skipping the sideline healers....
dan/ninx2 brd/whmx2 nin, ddx3 i foresee....

[Malacite]

It's about time we got a healer that gets in the mob's face.

Which kinda sucks, because a while back SE was trying to think of ways to encourage WHM melee. Oh well.

[Akashimo]

It's about time we got a healer that gets in the mob's face.
Which kinda sucks, because a while back SE was trying to think of ways to encourage WHM melee. Oh well.
Its more of encouraging parties to let whm melee. >_>
Any whm worth their mp can make a good dd set and parse close to a well equip average thf pre 2handers, not inclueding spike damage.
<_< Sides, whm got rev mail and hexa strike, its just the fact we don't have the endurence to do it well enough that a pld staff tanking and curing can probally out parse us in most parties we get that lets us DD on.
Regen 3, pro/shell, spike cures take up mp and slows us down that ppl would just go lolwhm if they were seriously parsing us.
The gear, skill and ability is there, its just the mind set and parties arent.

[Armando]

Its more of encouraging parties to let whm melee. >_>
Any whm worth their mp can make a good dd set and parse close to a well equip average thf pre 2handers, not inclueding spike damage.
<_< Sides, whm got rev mail and hexa strike, its just the fact we don't have the endurence to do it well enough that a pld staff tanking and curing can probally out parse us in most parties we get that lets us DD on.
Regen 3, pro/shell, spike cures take up mp and slows us down that ppl would just go lolwhm if they were seriously parsing us.
The gear, skill and ability is there, its just the mind set and parties arent.I'm sure WHM can use Spirit Taker in EXP if they ate Sushi and geared for it, particularly after the 2-handed weapon change. It'd be a lot easier and more practical than trying to get good damage out of something that's not meant to be a true DD.

[Akashimo]

I'm sure WHM can use Spirit Taker in EXP if they ate Sushi and geared for it, particularly after the 2-handed weapon change. It'd be a lot easier and more practical than trying to get good damage out of something that's not meant to be a true DD.
I'll come back to you on that after I cap staff and get spirit taker and get /sam36 to /sam37.

[Necropolis]

Eh, no. I personally tested it and I've noticed some big boosts in performance on /WHM compared to say /RDM or /BLM, and this is only a few points of MND being lost on those subs.

There are a lot of BLU who swear by healing skill and I'm among them.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Healing_Breeze

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Fruit


even the wiki entries list it.

Those wikis are wrong then. Confirmed with 3 BLUs in my LS and did testing.

Same MND when /whm and /nin and /thf cured the same exact amount on a neurtral day/weather.

I'd say you tested your spells on lightsday or darksday, or while those weather effects were in place.

[Armando]

Pretty sure Healing Skill affects it. I've tried it on my 30 BLU. Your BLU friends' cures were probably capped already.

[Malacite]

Only pollen is capped though >. >

[Akashimo]

Only pollen is capped though >. >
<_< which sucks if you consider most bees are insane with pollen.

[Malacite]

Demonic Tiphia... 3k Pollens....


/orz

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

From what I'm seeing in Scholar and Dancer - two classes that have healer functions built-in, it seems as though SE wishes to push the divide further rather than fix it. A TP-driven healer isn't going to have a problem in a TP burn PT. Meanwhile you have Scholar which seems like it can adapt to different situations much like PUP currently can, as well as RDM.

If trends push PUP, Scholar and Dancer to become more common healers, then that helps push SMN and RDM away from that role, which most SMNs and RDMs don't like anyway. If Dancer proves to be a good healer, RDM may not have to be a main healer for meleeburn PTs.

This could either help WHM or dilute their purpose further. It really all depends on how people take to the changes in PUP and the addition of Dancer and Scholar.

[Malacite]

Personally, I think SCH is going to be just what WHM and BLM need to give them the MP endurance they so badly need.

[Pteryx]

Personally, I think SCH is going to be just what WHM and BLM need to give them the MP endurance they so badly need.

The trouble is, this is not denied to RDM. A RDM/SCH will still have better endurance than a WHM/SCH or a BLM/SCH, I would think. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

True, but then RDM would be giving up WHM and BLM exclusive spells and abilities in exchange for improving their own spells.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[Karinya]

Yeah. Giving up curagas to gain White Grimoire could hurt you more than it helps you for main healing some parties - to say nothing of -na spells.

Of course, that assumes that you don't get those spells from /SCH with WG anyway... which we can't really know at this point in time.

The only thing we can be 99% sure a RDM/WHM changing to RDM/SCH will lose is Divine Seal, which frankly isn't THAT big a deal.

[Lunaryn]

Then there's the question of just how effective Dancer's healing (Drainga?) effect will be. I would think a TP-based full-party healer would be fairly friendly to the standard melee-burn. Might we see RDM-as-sole-meripo-healer be displaced by Dancer? You'd lose some buffs, but I'm not sure if it'd make that much difference particularly with everyone subbing Ninja...

[Karinya]

We won't see much effect on meripo (aside from less crowding) for a couple months at least - aside from the handful of players that can exp all day every day, most people will take months to finish leveling a new job. (Assuming no radical new gear/food/balance changes that can be applied immediately to existing jobs.) If a new subjob has a dramatic effect we might see that by New Year's.

Edit: And you need someone capable of fast focused healing to a specific person, or everyone's life is in danger (not even counting the lack of Raise in a hypothetical no-mage party). A BLU could theoretically fill this role, but with no MP support a BLU would be badly gimped. Everyone else that fits the bill is a backliner.

RDM+DNC+4 melees with the RDM pulling and crisis-healing might happen, though. Or BLU+BRD+DNC+3 other melees, with the BLU being both a DD and an emergency healer (in both cases most damage would be soaked by shadows or restored by drain, but the occasional Cure 3-4/Magic Fruit would be necessary for someone who got a crit or WS right after losing shadows, etc.)

That, of course, is assuming no significant balance changes to existing jobs (including no significant impact of /SCH) and no new mobs that are more profitable to exp on than existing ToAU mobs.

[Yellow Mage]

Dancers can heal, and they're on the frontline.

[Karinya]

There's no evidence that dancers can *quickly* heal *substantial amounts*. They can gradually heal small amounts to everyone. That's not going to help the guy who just got WS'd for 600 and still has hate - ooh, he can recover 5 hp per swing!

I'm not calling it useless (yet) - we'll have to see it in action. But there's a big difference between gradual and spike healing, and while the former can be useful to save MP, the latter is necessary if you don't want to die.

[Nuriko]

And from the look of the discussion, it ends up on "RDM can heal plenty and can refresh besides" so still no desire for WHM ... except maybe as a poor second for main healing in meripo. Still, we'll have to see what Dancer and Scholar end up being...

[Karinya]

That, of course, is assuming no significant balance changes to existing jobs (including no significant impact of /SCH) and no new mobs that are more profitable to exp on than existing ToAU mobs.

Changes to the overall party dynamic are what WHM (and BLM, and PLD, and...) principally need, anyway. WHM were fine in CoP and as soon as people stop making 2-3x more exp per hour fighting wimps than fighting real mobs, WHM will be fine again, even without specifically changing them at all and even if /SCH turns out to be useless.