About to start up NIN...help?

[Dwarkyzidez]

I left NIN at lv21, since I originally planned to use it to sub for WAR till 37. Well, now I've decided to actually level up NIN as it's a pretty interesting job. Doing so much at higher levels. Then as a SAM in a lv40 party, I saw this NIN deal MASSIVE damage to the mob with ninjutsu. I wanna do that.

So before I start, I've decided to get something straight. I want to level NIN as cheaply as possible. This means, I'm going to level my crafts to create my own ninja tools. Right now I'm starting on alchemy. What other crafts should I pick up? And should I save smithing/goldsmithing for last, since they cost so much?

Another thing, how did you all go about getting the scrolls for hojo/dokumori/etc? Fishing all that stuff seems a pain, but paying for them is out of my league. As said, Im trying to be as cheap as possible!

[IfritnoItazura]

Get a good pile of Gil, first. That's my advice.

[Kirsteena]

I don't know what the economy is like on your server, but on mine, unless you are tier III (51 above cap for recipie), you will be making a loss on tools for the most part. Certainly shihei, tabi and a couple of others. You are cheaper buying. Saurui-ran is pure loss, even if you HQ with us.

Quest as many of the scrolls as you can. If you have a high level job, you can farm the others. If you say it is a pain, then you are not trying to cheap it. The other option is spend the time farming to get them, especially if you would spend as long questing.

Nin is not a job you can cheap out - if you can't afford it, build up funds till you can.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Another thing, how did you all go about getting the scrolls for hojo/dokumori/etc? Fishing all that stuff seems a pain, but paying for them is out of my league. As said, Im trying to be as cheap as possible!
Are you saying that buying the scroll itself off of the AH is out of your league? Because there's a middle route between the two options. Buy the items needed for the quest (rusty items) instead of fishing them up, and use the items to complete the quest.

[Celeal]

It is resource draining, no matter how to slice it~

For example, if NIN is using lesser evasion gear (usually cheaper gear), he may end up using more Shihei:

Cheaper evasion gear -> less evasion -> more shadows are used -> more gil is used on Ninja Tools...

The same principle can be applied to other aspect of NIN tank too, like hate control, debuffing, damage output, etc:

More debuff on the mob -> weaker the mob -> easier to tank -> save more shadows...

More damage output -> mob dies faster -> less ninja tools are used...

Sloppy NIN tank -> sloppy party -> less exp over time -> spending more time in exp. party -> using more gil for ninja tools...

If there is no pay, then there is no gain.

[Zodac]

what about if your not tanking? Because I don't mind tanking all the time but I don't want to be the main tank.

[IfritnoItazura]

what about if your not tanking? Because I don't mind tanking all the time but I don't want to be the main tank.
You don't mind taking all the time but don't want to be main tank? :rolleyes: That doesn't seem to make sense, so I'll just advice you not play Ninja. Or Paladin. Better skip Warrior and Red Mage, too, just to be on the safe side.

[Zodac]

Ok, there is no need to be a smart ass with what I said, so let me clarify since I need to. I don't mind tanking sometimes in groups, but I don't want to be the real tank, ala the pt will need to have a warrior, or paladin with me, or even another ninja to do the tanking, I can do backup tank. That's what I was trying to say.

[IfritnoItazura]

At low levels (under 60, I guess), NINs aren't great DDs without special setups. Under Lv.28, I'd even argue no setup exists which makes NINs good DDs.

If you don't want to tank, you best not level NIN. Otherwise, "Tanking no thanks" is tantamount to asking parties to let you leech. =/

[Zodac]

I see... well I appreciate you talking to me about it. I guess I could just make my own tools and quest for the scrolls to try and cut down costs. Thanks again.

[IfritnoItazura]

On the plus side, as a NIN41, I have to say tanking on NIN had been exciting and fun. ^_^ I'll return to leveling it one day, when I can afford to do it right.

[Zodac]

Yeah I heard it eats up the gil. But if you make your own stuff doesn't that help alittle?

[Kilazar]

I know this thread has been dead for over a month, but I figure post here instead of make a new one on the same subject.


How much gil are we talking (estimated) to level nin to 37?

I have about 100k. Would that be enough? Considering I should get loot/crystals to vendor and ah along the way? Or is it significantly more?

[Spinnthrift]

I'd say you'd be looking at 100k in shihei alone, at minimum.

I personally go through around 6k hour in shihei, about about 2k an hour if I'm being kind when using Nin tools, when not playing as Nin/Rdm (if I'm playing Nin/Rdm, then my money/hour rate is not fluffy).

If you're looking to DD/hold hate, then you'll need to have skilled throwing and use shuriken for damage, and those are expensive, but great fun if you have the skill/r.acc gear to use them. That however just adds silly costs onto the deal.

If you're doing it on the cheap, assuming your server is similar to Midgards prices, I'd say look at around ~200k to get you to 37 (not including gear/spells).

[Kilazar]

I'd say you'd be looking at 100k in shihei alone, at minimum.

I personally go through around 6k hour in shihei, about about 2k an hour if I'm being kind when using Nin tools, when not playing as Nin/Rdm (if I'm playing Nin/Rdm, then my money/hour rate is not fluffy).

If you're looking to DD/hold hate, then you'll need to have skilled throwing and use shuriken for damage, and those are expensive, but great fun if you have the skill/r.acc gear to use them. That however just adds silly costs onto the deal.

If you're doing it on the cheap, assuming your server is similar to Midgards prices, I'd say look at around ~200k to get you to 37 (not including gear/spells).


jesus thats alot. Thanks for the info. I'll be passing on ninja and corsair lol.

I been wanting to level corsair, but needed nin up to 37, but if nin is that expensive then it's not worth it. And I'm sure corsair is just as expensive.

I don't have a decent means for bringing in gil at a decent rate or really the time.


*edit*

Are you using /rdm as your main sub in party's too? or is that just for solo'ing?

[Spinnthrift]

Nin/Rdm is a party build - but it's often frowned upon.

Full MAB/Int/Haste build, using HQ staves and spamming the wheel to DD/make hate. Assume cost of about 100g every three seconds when making damage.

Note: I really don't have the cash to do this a lot, just sometimes for fun with LS mates. Takes too much money, but the damage is well well worth it for short satisfying bursts.

[IfritnoItazura]

Nin/Rdm is a party build - but it's often frowned upon.
It's a damage dealer build, and it can be a fantastic DD at Lv.40. Always the top DD at every CoP 2.5 (Mammet fight) I've organized, unless doing a SMN party setup.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how much gil you like to spend), NINs are not normally invited for DD'ing--they are invited for tanking. Tanking in exp parties w/out Provoke is bad idea.

At Lv.51, a player would have to lose TP to continue this style of play; need to match the elemental staves with the Ninjutsu used. By Lv.60, NIN/BLM will outdo NIN/RDM thanks to Magic Attack Bonus II. I've no idea of the same kind of dominating performance seen at Lv.40 would last into the Lv.50+ or Lv.60+ range.

[Spinnthrift]

I use it as a tank build, and very successfully when not on high magic resist mobs.

Yup - tp gain is nonexistant from the staves swapping, but the damage output will put me as top DD, and therefore - top of hate. I don't even wear katana's to parties when /Rdm. Staves are just fine.

Yup, on the wheel alone - /Blm will make more hate via damage post 60, but.. and this is the best part.. You get more spells like Blind/Bind/Cure/etc to aid hate control, and fast cast is helpful to lowering Utsu recasts, kinda like a Pld/Nin uses to maintain.. or Pld/Rdm.

My low end Ni wheel at 53 was hitting for around ~140 low end, going up to ~180 damage if I had things like double weather effects. Combined with using Sleep/Blind/Bind - made sure after about 10 seconds into the fight - I was on top of the mobs emnity list. You need to have things like Eris Earring though to swap in on your non-Ninjutsu spells.

And provoke is overrated when your party produces too much damage. I've been in party's (which were soul destroying as a tank).. where I'd voke the mob the Rng had only just pulled (as in he'd hit it on the pull with an arrow) and voke wouldn't turn it to me, even with full emnity gear. Whereas - a Jubaku: Ichi, followed by a ~160 Katon would turn the mob back to me then Hojo > Kuyarami > Bind would cement it (the hate that is, not that bind would stick, nor that I would expect it to.). And the stick/land rates are very very noticeable.

It's a little like - having a Blm/Nin trying to tank if they had enough evasion and gear to get away with taking hits. They can take hate easily, they just can't survive enough... Nin can though, hence why it works.

It is a tank build, and can be a very effective tank in todays world of tp burn if you can use it on mobs that aren't resistant to magic or do reflectga. And there are lots of times people here have posted about tanking without voke... If I remember, Armando said how he did as Pld/Rdm a while back and how successful it was...

[IfritnoItazura]

PLD/RDM is probably stressful on the MP pool.

Like /RDM, /BLM would give Sleep, Bind, and Blind as well; you'd only be missing Dispel as far as major enmity tools are concerned. Either way, wouldn't /RDM or /BLM need at least part-time Refresh to keep those spells going without down time?

I can see it work, but Provoke is really nice to have. BTW, I have tanked as PLD/BLM by accident before, and it took a lot of effort to secure the monster.

My understanding is that most NINs find by using good Kanatas, they can do more damage than from the Ninjutsu wheel around Lv.50. With the right set up, I can see the wheel getting to Lv.60 and maybe a little beyond, but NINs get Dual Wield IV at Lv.65, and supposedly very good Katana in the 70's. You'd lose out on a lot of melee DoT by using the Elemental Staves, not to mention the nice spike damage and enmity from Blade: Jin.

Provoke, of course, is another enmity spike. Double Attack and Beserk from /WAR also increases damage output as well.

* * *

The only times where I've seen monsters ignoring Provoke completely right after RNG came back to camp is when RNG pulled with Barrage or Sidewinder or something stupid like that. ._.

Perhaps the RNGs on the forum can tell us more.

[Armando]

As PLD/RDM I was successful at holding hate and avoiding damage, but my damage output was even suckier than an ultra-defensive PLD/WAR's. And it requires MP. It would've been fantastic like 2-3 years back, when everyone still played PLD defensively, but these days I wouldn't recommend it. Just stay /WAR and pump out the damage. Kills mob faster and holds hate with pretty much damage and Flash.

As for playing NIN, the only real advice I can give is that the Ichi enfeebles are very mediocre hate. Spend 4 secs (and remain unable to perform other actions for another 3 secs) casting a spell for an amount of enmity that's going to vanish in 5 secs. That's 4 secs you weren't hitting the mob or gaining TP, which probably offsets the enmity you just made anyways.

They're still good to carry around in case you don't have an enfeebler for whatever reason, and you'll want them later on anyways because the Ni versions cast in only 2 seconds. Although the Ni versions are the same hate as the Ichi ones, the reduced casting time makes them much better. Although, Dokumori is hardly important. Slow/Paralyze/Blind are critical to tanking; Poison helps, you'll be just fine without it.

[Celeal]

IMHO, to a new player before trying some "non-standard" job combo, start from the traditional combo and do a good job on it first, before trying "new" stuff. In other words, start from NIN/WAR.

If the player is willing to spend the gil on Elemental Wheel, even a NIN/WAR can use it too. From level 40~65 my wheel is doing 80-ish dmg on average. Combine with katana's dmg, the damage output isn't too bad. Without the need of swapping nuking gear, etc, less "blinking" and less headache (especially if you are tanking in the party for 3 ~ 6 hours).

Back to the topic:

Another tip for NIN tank is about party setup and the mob. Imagine the NIN tank is in a "stressful" party. Which is okay until the NIN is tanking in those stressful condition for hours and mentally exhausted, then the performance goes down. How many hours can the NIN tank last before he is worn out is different among players (maybe 2, maybe 5, depends?).

If possible, try to learn how to form your own party. If you join a party, try to communicate with your team members.

[Armando]

Edit: Ugh, I hate my internet. Disregard this post.

[Nuriko]

Another tip for NIN tank is about party setup and the mob. Imagine the NIN tank is in a "stressful" party. Which is okay until the NIN is tanking in those stressful condition for hours and mentally exhausted, then the performance goes down. How many hours can the NIN tank last before he is worn out is different among players (maybe 2, maybe 5, depends?).

That sounds like me on WHM ... as time goes on, I have more and more trouble focusing on what I need to be doing RIGHT NOW to keep the PT going.

Oh, on another note ... don't look at gear as a non-recoverable expense like the tools are, you'll get at least part of it back once you don't need the gear anymore.

[Spinnthrift]

Celeal: Politely put - I had answered entirely on topic until others had said either a: is that a solo build, or b: saying that what I've been explaining as a party build for a while, wasn't or just queried what I meant. Usually that's how most of my posts go.

In terms of actual damage output - 60 Ni spell + 30 odd (assuming a 1 cRatio) per hit, won't match a fully geared for wheel. Especially when you either lose swing speed or casting if you're trying to melee, added to which it's not that easy to get up in damage, and Blade: Jin really isn't all that shiny. I've been topping out at 450's on crits/double attack procs on it, with gearswaps.

Nin/War can use the ele wheel, it's just a lot lot lot less potent. +15% accuracy from HQ staves, +MAB from gear and sj, etc etc... isn't covered by /War, and neither is the Fast Cast.

If you read my first post in this thread, did I state they had to level it? NO. I answered their question, honestly and politely. Have I then subsequently responded to others asking questions that my response has risen? Yes.

When I start telling people from the off, not to go Nin/War, then by all means quote me and say - you're not being entirely straight with that answer or whatever way you wish to phrase it, but until the point where I either lie or give straight out bad advice (which usually my advice is mathematically sound and backed by Wiki/Alla/BG/FFXI online results et all) - stop trying to twist my words into something they aren't. Please. I would be really grateful. Thanks. ^^

[Celeal]

I never say it is wrong for NIN/RDM or NIN/BLM, just to be clear ^^;

What I am try to say, is, for a new player, do a good job with NIN/WAR 1st, before trying other approach =P

At level 60, I do agree that Blade: Jin and overall katana dmg is not that great yet. It gets better and better at later levels, especially gearing towards VT mobs.