Ninja, only for tanking?

[ioshua]

Due to an unfortunate and unrecoverable 2004 era character wipe, I'm starting from scratch. This time, I'm taking a different route (was all support crazy before) and looking at my options. While not intentional, Ninja seems to be a great tank. I never had the chance to group with one before but all I hear is good.

Is that all they're there for now?

I was fine with the idea of adding a no-tank rider to my LFG notes but read that, if I want to put my all into DD, I'll end up tanking on pure damage output. And not in a good way. The abilities look spot on for a melee dps + debuff class with ranged options. Is it possible to get away with playing a Nin as anything but a tank?

To avoid a huge time investment ending in heartache, could I get the good word from those who have come before?

[Guren]

Ninja / Ranger is by far one of the best DD I ever seen in my life. But, extremely expensive. With Ung. Boomerang and stacks on stacks of ninja stars your damage output is amazing.

[Zempten]

Possibility to play a NIN as not a tank? Yes, in situations where there is a PLD in your PT or if there is another NIN in your PT. This is the beauty of playing NIN though. You can play a DD role or a Tank role however honestly speaking. . . . 80% of your invites will be with you being a tank. Wether you want to tank as a DD or not is completely up to you. You'll have to make that choice on your own but just realize it CAN be done in most situations.

NIN's can DD just fine through regular meeles (in most of the pickup PTs I'm in the NIN usually parses around 20% to 28% of the DMG done by the PT) so you don't HAVE to do the /RNG route. However .. . it's fun every now and then but I wouldn't suggest doing it 24 7 for financial reasons.

[IfritnoItazura]

Ninja / Ranger is by far one of the best DD I ever seen in my life. But, extremely expensive. With Ung. Boomerang and stacks on stacks of ninja stars your damage output is amazing.

Er... Can you equip boomerang and "ninja star"* at the same time?

That said, with capped throwing skills, level appropriate shurikens can do a lot of damage coming from NIN/RNG--just need to toss away stacks and stacks of those expensive tools.

* It's not "ninja star"; those things are actually called "shuriken", meaning something like "blade hidden in hand". The Lv.18 Shuriken is a boushuriken, and is basically a metal spike with threaded grip--it's not shaped like a star at all.

Between Lv.40-60 or so, NIN/BLM (or NIN/RDM Lv.40-50) can do heck of whole lot of damage using the Ni level elemental (-ton) Ninjutsu, using a technique commonly know nas the "Ninjutsu wheel."

Again, this burns through Gil (even more tools!) fast, and need INT and later MAB equipment to truly hit the peak potential.

[Celeal]

As NIN level goes up and Dual Wield's weapon delay reduction goes up (like DW IV - weapon delay reduction 30% at level 65), it make sense to focus on Katana at the end. In terms of overall DoT:
Level 18 ~ 40: Shurikens > Katana (High base dmg from Shurikens)
Level 40 ~ 60: Elemental Wheel > Shuriken > Katana (The Wheel can be speeded up by Haste, range attack doesn't)
Level 60+: Katana

Plus, spam Shuriken or Elemental Wheel is like spam gil at the mob, but Katana is swing for free.

[Guren]

Er... Can you equip boomerang and "ninja star"* at the same time?

That said, with capped throwing skills, level appropriate shurikens can do a lot of damage coming from NIN/RNG--just need to toss away stacks and stacks of those expensive tools.

* It's not "ninja star"; those things are actually called "shuriken", meaning something like "blade hidden in hand". The Lv.18 Shuriken is a boushuriken, and is basically a metal spike with threaded grip--it's not shaped like a star at all.

Between Lv.40-60 or so, NIN/BLM (or NIN/RDM Lv.40-50) can do heck of whole lot of damage using the Ni level elemental (-ton) Ninjutsu, using a technique commonly know nas the "Ninjutsu wheel."

Again, this burns through Gil (even more tools!) fast, and need INT and later MAB equipment to truly hit the peak potential.

Wasn't say at same time. Just saying, the stars (I call them stars for easier way of saying shuriken and boushurikin every single time) the stars are expensive and if you are in a long time party you will run out eventually. The boomerang can help a lot in those situations.

[WishMaster3K]

EVA Tanking setup ftw.

Ask Omni about it. He's all about being as gimp as possible at any given moment :-D

As a NIN/WAR, versatility is as simply as macroing the right gear. However, anything other than just straight tanking requires a lot of investments such as time, money and patience. Oh, and macros. NIN is one of the few jobs that is both gear and skill driven. Most melee jobs (read: all) is about the gear. NIN don't have that luxury.

Versatility to NIN is similar to RDMs in that it depends on your sub. NIN/BLM and NIN/RNG have been touched on, but for the most part, expect to fulfill a cookie-cutter role most of the time. If a pt leader types in "/sea all (level) NIN invite", chances are they're not looking for a DD. Or a Nuker.

Bring enough gear, gauge your own abilities. You might find out that with a higher damage output, you can rely on Shadows and Haste to tank.

[hongman]

80%? Id say more like 95% you will be expected and invited to tank. And a fair chunk of those will say "see you later alligator" when you tell them you are DD only, becuase
1. Tanks are generally speaking not as readily available as DD and
2. A lot of people think NIN cant DD, especially at lower levels
3. They can invite a DRK or WAR or something that is a "safer bet".

[WishMaster3K]

NIN DD is "meh" until Jin.

No amount of STR/Attack gear is going to put you on par until NIN start breaking the TP floor, spamming Critical Boosted WSs and start going batshit crazy with Their broken DW bonuses.

Katanas just don't have the base damage until the 60s. Of course, you'll need decent attack to keep hate though. But don't expect to be a "DD" in the sense of the word until later.

Just like how it might be hard for a pure Turtle PLD to keep hate when they are hitting for 0, same goes for NIN who just dodges everything and only hits for sub 35 damage, even in the 60s.

Been a while since I was at that range, and I likely won't be able to relate, seeing as how I'm a PLD in that range now, but I do recall there being a time and a place for that sort of thing.. Like in Kuftal tunnel on the mobs down there, sometimes you can do a Hybrid Tank/DD as a NIN (Cocks and tigers) but on the Wyverns, you'll need to macro in Eva/Haste.

[Zempten]

When I was lvling I PTed alot more frequently with a PLD against colibris or another NIN, which was why I said 80%. I guess it varies from server to server.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

There are arguably 10 other jobs in this game that can be invited to fill a generic DD spot, while NIN is one of only 3 jobs that can be counted on to tank (some would argue there's only 2 jobs). Why would you want to pigeon-hole yourself into the category that has the most competition when it comes to getting invites?

The +debuff part of the job isn't going to help distinguish you from the other players seeking as "DD only" (either by choice, or by nature of their job). If a party really wants debuffing, they'll probably rely on mages anyway, since their selection of debuffs is more diverse.

If you put a note in your search comment that you are "DD only", party leaders will probably get the wrong impression of you -- that you are trying to leech exp and avoid spending gil on ninja tools.

[Amele]

No amount of STR/Attack gear is going to put you on par until NIN start breaking the TP floor, spamming Critical Boosted WSs and start going batshit crazy with Their broken DW bonuses.

there is no TP floor anymore. but ninjas also do most of their damage in the TP-phase and not the weaponskill phase, so maxing haste and dual-wield is still the way to go.


generally speaking, you should probably evasion/agi tank until the 40's at which point you can probably start to hybrid tank.

at 59 when you get a haubergeon, you can probably start doing Hybrid/DD almost full time, especially since the heaviest DD are all going to take hate off you anyway.

get arhat's at 64 but continue to ws in your haub; by 72+ you can probably DD almost full time - for sure at 74.

[WishMaster3K]

NIN is way too expensive. But when done right... holy shyt.

[Omni]

EVA Tanking setup ftw.
Ask Omni about it. He's all about being as gimp as possible at any given moment :-D
As a NIN/WAR, versatility is as simply as macroing the right gear. However, anything other than just straight tanking requires a lot of investments such as time, money and patience. Oh, and macros. NIN is one of the few jobs that is both gear and skill driven. Most melee jobs (read: all) is about the gear. NIN don't have that luxury.
Versatility to NIN is similar to RDMs in that it depends on your sub. NIN/BLM and NIN/RNG have been touched on, but for the most part, expect to fulfill a cookie-cutter role most of the time. If a pt leader types in "/sea all (level) NIN invite", chances are they're not looking for a DD. Or a Nuker.
Bring enough gear, gauge your own abilities. You might find out that with a higher damage output, you can rely on Shadows and Haste to tank.

I saw that checkerboard wearing fishbaker3k. I've got my eye on joo.

eva tanking was the old days. back when there wasnt sushi and back when all you fought were crabs that took 15min to make a chain 5. eva tanking keeps you alive when you tank for that long.

not needed now since all you can do is just tp everything to death in 45s.

but im sure as ppl have said, ninjas are great dd too. one of the fastest TPing jobs out there and properly equipped, blade jins can hit the 1000 range at times.

[WishMaster3K]

Hey! I don't wear checkerboards anymore. Now that I'm 50 I only wear t3h Shiny plating.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4787/img20070804084901ow3.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070804084901ow3.jpg)

Me in Full Turtle so you can see my max VIT w/o food.

Ordinarily I just keep on the Life Belt and switch in and out between Parade and Spike Neck.

[Malacite]

NIN/BLM is capable of some pretty sick stuff 51+


You need all the MAB and INT (in that order) that you can pile on, along with elemental staves (HQ preferably to get the most out of your girl)


Unfortunately this combo will cost a fortune per tool set. Not many do it, but it's power is insane.

[XNihili]

If it's about DD :
at lower level, your katanas are hitting for craps. Hell they still did in the 50s even with a bunch of +attack gear. I think it's only slightly better than THF so it's really bad as NIN don't have huge spike damage like THF.
So if you reall you want to DD before 40, the only choice is to use Shuriken. Or tank. Or Leech XP. Your choice.
In the 40's (til middle/end 50's, a bit more if you are not going on the Colibri route as they are highly magic resistant) you can be top DD and tank at the same time, thanks to the elemental wheel. It may be a bit expensive but you can take down a VT link all by yourself.
Afterward, the elemental wheel are fading and damage is still not very good until it starts to pick up at 58 with the AF body then Haubergeon, then Blade: Jin (not really good at the beginning), then Lv61 katanas and Amemet Mantle and then Bomb Core.
At that time your DD is doing on par with most DD but not breath taking yet.
I believe it really shines at higher level when you have access to a bunch of haste and dual wield+ equipments and even better katanas.

[Theyaden]

A friend of mine was leveling ninja and wanted to avoid tanking due to cost of the blink tools. He made his own parties and invited a paladin straight off each time. He capped out his ninjitsu by spamming the elemental wheel not sure if he used stars or just a boomerang.
If I'm pt lead and I'm searching for paladin or ninja I'm looking for a tank. I read the search comments so I won't bother one that has /whm sub only (Yes I really ran across a pal/whm who had his search string that he wouldn't change it) or tanking no thanks in their search string. You'll find some people don't bother checking and will raise the issue of tanking after you arrive so there will be a few frustraiting moments if your getting picked up rather than making your own.

[IfritnoItazura]

A friend of mine was leveling ninja and wanted to avoid tanking due to cost of the blink tools. He made his own parties and invited a paladin straight off each time. He capped out his ninjitsu by spamming the elemental wheel not sure if he used stars or just a boomerang.

I don't understand; how can anyone save on cost while spamming the wheel?

With the exception of pulling, using a boomerang is a complete waste of time in exp parties. The same goes for the Ichi level -ton Ninjutsu, unless it's done to lower resistance to specific enfeebs or skillchain. (MB with Ichi -ton is kinda OK.) I consider both pretty rude, to be honest.

A NIN who won't tank but isn't set up correctly as a DD (pretty much NIN/RNG with shuriken only, before Lv.40) is just a leech.

Oh, and shuriken isn't "star". :rolleyes:

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I don't understand; how can anyone save on cost while spamming the wheel?
I'm guessing he didn't spam the entire wheel. Tsurara is pretty cheap, so you can probably spam Hyoton whenever it's ready, not spend too much gil, and still not be contributing all that much to the pt and successfully leeching exp.

[Shadowneko]

People have touched on these but I'll go for the recap and some additions:

Nin/war A.K.A: Ninja Tank was an accidental discovery that is now the accepted standard. Personnaly I hate playing this way and I never want to play Ninja again because of this. Basicly you have a lighly armored class with only 3-7 recasting shadows for protection and odds are you'll miss the overlap, get "spell intrupted" a million times and be eating dirt before long.(ok my silly opinion of that application...heck I've even played healing mage to it and saw the same thing) Plus the Ninja job has next to no hate holding-ability...heck I could out Tank one as Warrrior and a good PLD will always trump a Ninja in the hate department!

People have already listed the stuff I consider to be fun ways to use Ninja...but rather expensive like Elemental debuffs/wheel(add a BLM in the party on lower lvls for fun debuffing), Shrikuiens, and swinging a couple of Katanas really fast. Those are Ninja DD traits and assists that were original to the job before all this death-tanking nonsence...

Then again I just hate Nin/war...which is not what eveyone else thinks....

[Amele]

People have touched on these but I'll go for the recap and some additions:
Nin/war A.K.A: Ninja Tank was an accidental discovery that is now the accepted standard. Personnaly I hate playing this way and I never want to play Ninja again because of this. Basicly you have a lighly armored class with only 3-7 recasting shadows for protection and odds are you'll miss the overlap, get "spell intrupted" a million times and be eating dirt before long.(ok my silly opinion of that application...heck I've even played healing mage to it and saw the same thing) Plus the Ninja job has next to no hate holding-ability...heck I could out Tank one as Warrrior and a good PLD will always trump a Ninja in the hate department!
People have already listed the stuff I consider to be fun ways to use Ninja...but rather expensive like Elemental debuffs/wheel(add a BLM in the party on lower lvls for fun debuffing), Shrikuiens, and swinging a couple of Katanas really fast. Those are Ninja DD traits and assists that were original to the job before all this death-tanking nonsence...
Then again I just hate Nin/war...which is not what eveyone else thinks....

it wasn't accidental. and the armor isn't particularly light. and the job has A class evasion and parry. so I don't see why you think SE didn't have some tanking in mind.

sure SE didn't intend for ninja to be the tank (like pld), they've stated as much. but if you think they didn't plan on ninjas being hittable, well.. lol. look at the placement of utsusemi versus blink in terms of potency and recast time.

and the best sub for DD ninja is *still* warrior, unless you plan to wear elemental staves and san/ni wheel nuke.

[hongman]

Well, have to disagree there.

While NIN was not designed to be a tank per se, it does the job rather well.

Talking about exp parties here, NIN can hold hate as well as PLD. Maybe requires more skill to do so, but they can.

Shadow counts are fine, NIN have high EVA. Getting interuppted is learning to time, just as a PLD has to time a Cure.

Nin/war has plenty of hate holding tools. Provoke, shadows (as in not getting hit, means you dont shed hate as quick), Ninjutsu...

Yes, comes at a cost, but Nin can tank just as fine as a PLD. Some scenarios cater better to either one.

[XNihili]

Ninja were not supposed to tank but SE did change afterward giving a bunch of +enmity and -dmg% equipments.
Ninja tanking are much more dependant on party members than PLD, they really need haste, debuff and that other DD don't jump the guns right of the bat.
But it can be done and done nicely. It requires skills and is less forgiving than with PLD (and expensive) but it's kinda fun. Well, at least after Utsusemi: Ni.
Tanking alone with Utsusemi: Ichi only a few evasion gear against Mandragora is kinda meh.

[hongman]

Yes I agree. But even PLD's at that lvl had crappy DEF anyway and not much better off (all things considered)

Again, its scenarios for a better tank. Hard, but slow hitting mobs is most efficient for NIN, wheras MNK mobs obliterate shadows. And vice versa for PLD.

[Omni]

I wouldnt say its much more dependent on pt members than a pld. If a pld runs out of mp because he doesnt get refresh, he's no better than any other melee. There are times where I've had half my pt members wipe and I've been able to solo the mob long enough for others to get up and spot heal.

I actually think this is where nin excels. their tools are limitless while a pld is dependent on his mp.

Also, I dont think it matters pld or nin when it comes to heavy hitting DD. any dd jumping the gun will make it difficult for any type of tank.

[Amele]

Ninja were not supposed to tank but SE did change afterward giving a bunch of +enmity and -dmg% equipments.
Ninja tanking are much more dependant on party members than PLD, they really need haste, debuff and that other DD don't jump the guns right of the bat.
But it can be done and done nicely. It requires skills and is less forgiving than with PLD (and expensive) but it's kinda fun. Well, at least after Utsusemi: Ni.
Tanking alone with Utsusemi: Ichi only a few evasion gear against Mandragora is kinda meh.

arhat's has been in the game for a very long time. (+enmity -dmg% equipment). if you mean ninja specific gear, then yes.

if you mean that ninja has gone on more general tanking gear going forward than their initial gear list might've indicated, then yes.

[WishMaster3K]

any dd jumping the gun will make it difficult for any type of tank.

And then they blame us for them spamming..

I swear. I'm only level 50, but some ppl think we can spam WSs like we're 75. -_-

[XNihili]

[System Message: You are not allowed to post URLs as you have not yet contributed sufficiently. Please try again at a later time.]