Broken Enfeebling Magic...

[Callisto]

Ok, this has been bothering the absolute crap out of me for awhile. When fighting some of the more premiere fights in the game, it is really starting to seem that even with equivalent skill, RDM is getting the short end of the stick in regards to their Enfeebling Magic.

The largest two examples I have are my recent fights against Promathia, and the Apocalypse Nigh brothers. Now these are supposed to be hard fights, and I don't expect landing spells to be a gimme, but there's a point where I say 'Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.'

Both strategies call for Gravity kiting generally, and the guides never really say that Elemental Seal is a must to land the spell, so I'm assuming someone has had some luck landing it without ES.

In 6 fights against Promathia, I was /WHM to help with Erase/-nas and curing Prishe. I landed Gravity maybe a total of 3 times among 6 fights. For AN, I go as /DRK so that I can Chainstun the younger brother. I have yet to land a single Gravity, though our BLM was able to with ES. I did beat Promathia on the 6th, currently 0/2 on AN, we got it down to 3% but we were kind of underprepared in terms of meds and RR.

My enfeebles in general have been crap. I was able to land Slow on Promathia, and nothing else. I haven't had time to really do anything but Gravity, Stun, and Cure on AN, but the few paralyzes I tossed out got resisted, on Iceday.

I don't exactly have bad gear. I'm 8/8 on Enfeebling merits, I have several equip sets, but generally my debuffing set consists of:

Austere's Staff(borrowed:cry: )
Phantom Tathlum
Warlock's Chapeau
Enfeebling Torque
Enfeebling Earring
Moldavite Earring
Warlock's Tabard
Duelist's Gloves
Hale Ring
Tamas Ring
Prism Cape
Penitent's Rope
Warlock's Tights
Duelist's Boots

This puts my Enfeebling Magic at 317 when the spells fire, and my stat boost at INT+26 and MND +24. I'd also have +15 macc for wind from the Austere's Staff. Yet I cannot land a Gravity without Elemental Seal for my life on these mobs, which are supposed to be 'susceptible' to it.

I'm wondering if it's something I'm doing wrong, or if it's just something that RDM gets shafted on, because DD with equivalent skill levels on their weapons, and BLMs with similar Elemental Magic don't seem to have anywhere near this much trouble landing their respective attacks.

Thoughts?

[Gobo]

Chalk it up as a "Zuh?!"

Enfeebling magic is one of those things that isn't an exact science like other magic skills. Skill doesn't always equate to success rate of sticking spells. I've Silenced Kirin more as a SMN/WHM than I have as a RDM. (Done the same to Mini-Suzaku heh). I can stick Slow II to Jimmy and Para II to Ouryu as well as someone who has approx equivalent gear who has enfeeb merits (I have none).

Susceptible doesn't mean it will always stick, just means it CAN stick. Take the Kirin example. Its susceptible to silence, but its sure as hard as hell to stick, though by game mechanics (its an earth type mob) it should be easy.

Curious as to what your strat is for the AN BC. Obviously you start with CS-Stun, melee going balls to walls on the older (he is smaller, but is actually the older one) brother, while someone kites other brother. Do you then just kite and kill the other one (he stops to cast enough that Gravity shouldn't be needed, while being kited to avoid Great Wheel spamming)?

Oh, you really don't need to heal Prishe. She can take care of herself pretty well, plus you can raise her if she "dies."

[Mhurron]

it's just something that RDM gets shafted on
Yep.

Skill doesn't always equate to success rate of sticking spells. I've Silenced Kirin more as a SMN/WHM than I have as a RDM. (Done the same to Mini-Suzaku heh). I can stick Slow II to Jimmy and Para II to Ouryu as well as someone who has approx equivalent gear who has enfeeb merits (I have none).
That's pretty much the definition of broken.

[Callisto]

Susceptible doesn't mean it will always stick, just means it CAN stick. Take the Kirin example. Its susceptible to silence, but its sure as hard as hell to stick, though by game mechanics (its an earth type mob) it should be easy.

Haha, just a side note, I've gotten Garuda's Dagger to proc on Kirin more than I've landed actual Silences.

Curious as to what your strat is for the AN BC. Obviously you start with CS-Stun, melee going balls to walls on the older (he is smaller, but is actually the older one) brother, while someone kites other brother. Do you then just kite and kill the other one (he stops to cast enough that Gravity shouldn't be needed, while being kited to avoid Great Wheel spamming)?

We had some trouble kiting the larger one, although he does stop to cast he can occassionally wipe out the kiter with Light Blade, this happened on our first two runs, we were RDM WHM PLD PLD DRK SAM, doing dry runs. The 3rd run we were same setup, but with a BLM/RDM instead of a WHM. BLM opens w/ ES gravity, one PLD vokes and kites the bigger bro. 2nd PLD grabs the smaller, we fire off a SC to get it to about 75%. The SAM uses MS and does his thing, I start chainstunning when he starts his. We wiped the smaller out easily like this, then straight tanked the larger. He did do a triple Great Wheel, although it didn't do a ton of damage, only the DRK got knocked down by it. The BLM used Manafont and tossed out 2 AM2s, then spammed cures for the rest of the duration, I tried to rest MP at this point. Another 2 Great Wheels knocked down the SAM, he RR'd. We got it down to 3% before we all pretty much ran out of MP, I had 67 left and couldn't fire off a Bio before I went down, it probably would have finished him if I could've gotten it, pretty much any WS or spell would've.

This run-through was kind of impromptu though, we had no pots/ethers/ica wings, I had no food left, and the BLM had no Echos on him(we had to trade in the middle of the fight lol :wasted: ). Tonight we're going back at it with the same strategy, except fully prepared, I don't think we'll have a problem winning this time.

[Gobo]

Well if the shoe fits go with it I guess. Only suggestions I could really make would be if you're still having trouble would be to have one of the PLDs change to a melee (if they have it) for more damage to kill the smaller one faster and just constantly kite the bigger one even after the smaller one is dead. Light Blade should give reduced damage the farther you are away.

[Callisto]

He actually only used Light Blade once or twice once we started fighting him after dispatching the smaller, and by then it was fine b/c I was able to move to Cure duty instead of Stun duty. I'd definately take Light Blade over Great Wheel spam, it's much easier for me to Cure bomb a single PLD than spread around several cures to the DDs. We'll see how tonight goes though, if it doesn't work out we'll have to make some adjustments to our plan.

[Gobo]

Then all I'll say is good luck!

Now back on topic...if there is anything else to say than restate that enfeebling magic is broken.

[Callisto]

Did the fight again last night, this time on windsday, still no dice on the Gravity or other debuffs. We did absolutely destroy the fight though, so I'll have a Hollow Earring waiting for me when I get home.

I guess it's just certain fights that enfeebling just isn't going on. I did Limbus right after AN, and didn't see a single spell resisted the entire run. I can't say it's 'unfair' that you can't debuff the mobs in these really hard fights, because they're supposed to be really hard. I guess my main issue is that it leaves you as pretty much a refresher and backup cure, maybe tossing out a few stuns here and there; and nothing else. If you can't land your A+ skill spells on the mob, your nukes probably aren't going to fare too well either. And refresh whoring is just downright boring. :/

[Gobo]

Grats on winning.

Nuking (as a RDM) wasn't that great. I won ours with a Blizard III, but it was 1/2 resisted. Wouldn't mind going back now and trying to see how strong my nukes are now that I have better nuking gear.

[WishMaster3K]

Enfeebling magic has such a bad relative return rate no matter how high you stack it, it seems.

It's almost disheartening to even bother waiting in the queue for highly coveted gear, because it has little-to-no effect on end/game mobs and it's unnecessary on exp/merit mobs.

But grats on the gear. I probably won't be getting any RDM Dynamis or RDM End-game gear that isn't buyable or dropped from an NM I can solo, because I can't invest the time I want to into those activities. Well maybe not NOW, I JUST beat Ouryu last night, so who knows.. in due time I suppose..

And it seems that even with the gear you have, your results on Kirin and others aren't so different from my own, with my menial budget.

Just chalk it up to the game, and realize that if you do hit the coveted 350 point of Enfeebling, you'll be at a 1/5 ratio on Kirin instead of a 1/15. Which is better than nothing, because 1 successful Gravity every 5 minutes over the course of a 45min-1hour fight is a good thing.

[Callisto]

I'm not doing anything more for my Enfeebling other than trying for the AF2 hat, and that is more about completing my AF2 set than any of the pieces themselves, I've been 4/5 forever already, and I want to store the damn things when I level other jobs :wasted:; so I feasibly could max my Enfeebling at 332. I do hope that WoTG does bring some nice IT+ exp camps with it, so that enfeebling magic and MBs in xp can make a comeback. I don't really plan on doing Sky again unless I quit Dynamis(I'm already at 4 nights a week with events between Dynamis and Limbus, and I still want to have some semblance of a life outside of the game XD), and I have a day job so HNM is out for the most part. I don't run into huge mobs that I need to debuff that often anymore, it'd be sweet to have some added that not only would debuffs help on, but would actually stick on. I'll be fighting Proto-Ultima/Omega for the first time in a couple of weeks, so we'll see how the enfeebling goes in there.

[hongman]

Last Kirin we done, I had just got my Auster's Staff. Gravity landed for 80% on both Kirins. And I only have 304 Enfeebling. And /DRK. (actually maybe the +INT from DRK helped....)

Got another one tonight, which Ill be subbing /DRK for, I'll be aiming to do the same again. Bind occasionally sticks as well, which is a god send for the kiters.

Might even eat an Icarus Wing and do a Last Resort + Soul Eater + Heavy Swing if I feel brave....

[WishMaster3K]

YEAH! Amen to that, Callisto. I have a 9-5, things to do at home (trying to get the basement redone), a very fantastic girlfriend and when school starts, fraternity duties.

So even though it's the summer, I never have enough time to do "endgame," and when school starts, I'll have LESS free time.

So find out about enfeebling for me and tell me how it works out for you, because unless there is a significant change that's noticeable, I don't see the point to rearrange my schedule just so I can sneak in some FFXI activities.

And holy shyt, I capped Ice magic, only to never see another MB in my life.

WTH.

-_-. I kind of miss 3 Mage + 3 Melee pts, to be honest.

1 Tank, two DDs, me, WHM and BLM... SC at 80%, then the dual MB almost killing the mob, and melees getting TP to be able to open up at the next fight.

When we talk about the "good ol days" for us (lolGarlaige Trains, Zoning into CN and getting pounded on by Crawler Hunters, etc..) then we should talk about how awesome Lufaise was.

Oh.. I just ranted, didn't I. I think I did.

[Callisto]

Haha, it's acceptable. And yeah, I dinged 75 on Abraxes and Tav Rams, and I miss that camp!

I will say that greater enfeebling magic does definitely make a noticeable difference in most things. Since most of us are familiar with the Kirin fight, that's a goode example. Before I had merited enfeebling magic, I really couldn't land crap on Kirin, I was just there to MB, refresh, and backup cure for the most part. After tacking on the +16 skill from merits, my sticking rate went up noticeably. I'm sure if I had AF2 hat for another +15, it would go up even more noticeably, but the main issue is that a DRK doesn't need 330+ GSword skill to do a 2k dmg Ground Strike, a BLM doesn't need 330+ Elemental skill to hit a 2k Burst 2, so a RDM with 310+ should really be able to at least land a Paralyze on Promathia without Elemental Seal.

[WishMaster3K]

Point taken.

lolRDMEnfeeblesOnHNMS


/sigh

"GTFO of mid range and go back to Haste/Refresh, gimp"

/sigh

[Pteryx]

I will say this: elemental accuracy seems to matter more than enfeebling skill. While I didn't parse it or anything, I did notice that against your typical Dvucca-region Heraldic Imps, a single wind accuracy merit seemed to swing the balance on landing Silence from full resists more often than not to landing more often than not, while the effects of my first enfeebling merit were not so dramatic. I have no real endgame experience, though, so I'd have to let others comment on how useful such merits are there, but it's something to at least give a shot... -- Pteryx

[WishMaster3K]

Accuracy is surprisingly still pretty ambiguous as far as magic goes.

But I HAVE noticed a change in landing or Para ever since I capped Ice.

[Aeni]

Getting enfeebling to land on those imps is equivalent to trying to get it to land on Kirin. Very frustrating and makes some of the newer players think I'm not doing my job. What is frustrating is that these imps seem to sacrifice a bit of physical defense in return for magical resistance. I seriously think SE was trying to shaft magic users in this expansion...

Although landing Gravity hasn't been much of an issue and is the only real way for me to raise enfeebling skill w/o seeming to waste my MP (Although there is Dia and Bio ...)

[IfritnoItazura]

Has anyone tried:

Doton: Ni/San -> Gravity
Futon: Ni/San -> Paralyze

The -ton Ninjutsu series seem to have pretty good accuracy, IIRC. Using them to lower resist may help?

[Callisto]

Yeah, Imps are very hard to land Slow, Blind, and Silence on. And I think you're right about ToAU, I think in a way they did it to make up for how nearly all of CoP could be done easier as a BLM or SMN burn than with a 'real' party.

[Callisto]

Has anyone tried:

Doton: Ni/San -> Gravity
Futon: Ni/San -> Paralyze

The -ton Ninjutsu series seem to have pretty good accuracy, IIRC. Using them to lower resist may help?

It definitely would help...finding a good enough NIN who actually carries all tools and is willing to cast them specifically when you need just to help you out, that's pretty rare, at least in terms of an XP party.

[IfritnoItazura]

at least in terms of an XP party.
I thought the talk about unable to land Gravity/Parlyze/Silence was about Gods/HNM/Mission boss fights?

I counting my lucky stars when PUG tanks remember to Provoke and pullers realize they should use Utsusemi when on /NIN... So not counting on them to help land enfeebs. x_x;

[Callisto]

I thought the talk about unable to land Gravity/Parlyze/Silence was about Gods/HNM/Mission boss fights?

I counting my lucky stars when PUG tanks remember to Provoke and pullers realize they should use Utsusemi when on /NIN... So not counting on them to help land enfeebs. x_x;

Oh, the OP was, but Aeni's post that I was responding to was regarding Caederva Mire Imps, I thought you were talking about those as well ^^;

[Icemage]

RDM HNM enfeebling is feast or famine. You can have every piece of enfeebling gear and only get 10-20% accuracy at best on some spells. Other times, you get 90% even with no additional merit points or special gear equipped. It just depends on the enemy and the spell in question; your skill and gears don't figure very prominently into the equation (obviously having it is better than not, but it's not the night and day difference some people make it out to be).


Icemage

[hongman]

I'll back what Icemage just said there with a bit of personal experience.

One particular Kirin run, I managed to land a fair amount of Binds, and around 85% of all my Gravity's.

Next run, which also happened to be in Windsday, (all other variables the same) and I couldnt hand Gravity for more than maybe 40%.

Although, on Mire Imps, I didnt have much problem landing the all important Silence past lvl 70 or so. I havent merited there (I HATE that place, always packed) since I first dinged 75 and got a crap load more gear.

[Aeni]

Although, on Mire Imps, I didnt have much problem landing the all important Silence past lvl 70 or so. I havent merited there (I HATE that place, always packed) since I first dinged 75 and got a crap load more gear.

Once, even with Elemental Seal, Silence got resisted and the party ate a -aga spell -_-

But you said post 70, so I'm still 3 levels shy of that xD

[WishMaster3K]

The day RDMs can land Silence on Ahrimans is the day I will finally be happy.

[Mhurron]

The day RDMs can land Silence on Ahrimans is the day I will finally be happy.
You mean I can't? Last time I tried I was lvl25, so I dunno.

[Callisto]

I've had TW Ahrimans resist my Silence casts on a regular basis. Then watched a WHM land one on the Sleepga II NM without Elemental Seal. That was a sad, lonely night for me.

[hongman]

Once, even with Elemental Seal, Silence got resisted and the party ate a -aga spell -_-

But you said post 70, so I'm still 3 levels shy of that xD

At 67, noone would expect you to be able to land Silence reliably. So dont feel bad :) Each level up you will notice a fair chunk of resists go away as well.

:thumbsup:

Just a lilttle side note, in Dyna-Sandy, I noticed with my new Pimp Hat v2 (+15 Enfeeb) I had not a single resist on Silencing the eyes. Which was cool.

[Callisto]

Got my first shot at Proto-Ultima on Sunday. For the first 98% he didn't resist a single debuff that I threw at him. SlowII/ParaII/BlindII/PoisonII/Gravity/Bind all landed and worked very well, Para II proc'd a whole bunch before wearing each time, although the duration did leave some to be desired.

However, as per my normal luck, we were about to wipe with it at 2%, I had the last shot at it. I cast Poison II and got resisted for the first time in the entire 40-minute fight, then got killed before I could get off Bio II. Either one landing would have likely won us the fight. Oh well, I'll have another shot at it in a couple of weeks, but at least I know it can be debuffed rather easily! :)

[Callisto]

So I started doing Sky again for the first time in nearly two years...since the last time I did it I've merited the crap out of my RDM and gotten much better gear, so I was interested to see how well I could do now.

So far I've fought Suzaku twice, both fights within an hour of each other, and both were pretty much night and day. The first fight I stuck every enfeeble except Blind on the first try. Para II landed and proc'd like nuts, Slow II landed and lasted forever, Poison II landed every time.

The second fight was a completely different story. I landed 2 Poisons and 1 Slow the entire fight, and Slow wore off in about 30 seconds. I spent nearly both of my MP pools just trying to debuff it, and really to no effect. Even Dispel got resisted twice. Same exact gear/stats as the first fight, and it was a neutral day. I seriously have no clue how this worked, debuffing these things is still as random as always.