About to hit level 50. How does the Exp scene change after access to the ramp up in gear, Defender and stronger mobs.

All I remember at this level is that Crabs are easy, but fights take forever because they're like brick walls that like spamming their TP moves.

I have my gear posted on my RenTheRed Blog, so it's visible there, and I already brought my lvl 50 setup, and I can solo all/most my AF as RDM so I'm not concerned about that, but what should I be expecting?

Antica in QSC were hitting me harder than other mobs, but thankfully my MP was going up at a decent rate, so that was tolerable.

Oh, and I seem to be spamming Cure 3 like I was spamming Cure 2 in the 30-40s ; ;

Oh well, just looking for input. I'm 7k from 50 right now, and I wanted to understand the feasible aspects of Defender. I understand that I get a 25% boost in Defense, but with my base attack at 183, can I afford to lose the 25% attack?

Keep in mind I'm not trying to "turtle" per se, but gear is really limited. I'll attach a screenshot of my current setup.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4713/img20070801192910fn6.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070801192910fn6.jpg)

My PLD always tanked the first 1 or 2 critter at new camps on full turtle gears without food (and no Defender, if possible). (I was in a static party, so you may want to try this every session instead if you're doing the PUG's and want to see how well the party works)

Then, depending on how badly I'm getting hit, I make the decision on food/Defender/gears. And, yes, there are times (http://campsitarus.blogspot.com/2005/10/59-63-uleguerand-range.html) I hastily threw up both Shallops Tropicale and Defender before the end of the first fight. >_>;

when does pld atk ever matter?
(being serious)

Well maybe not at this level, but I'm trying to break out of the Turtle Tanking stigma before I get to far into my career.

Can a pld be really effective dealing dmg w/o giving up a good amount of their defensive gear (and tank effectively) before they reach 74+?

I haven't seen it done well at all. Something always gives when a pld tries to do that in my experience.

taru edit: main problem is the tendency for pts to over hunt when grinding. you hardly find PTs hunting T-VT mobs before 70.

I was thinking it's all Macros Macros and Macros, but it's all situational. And for the amount of time I'd have it out (WS, or if we're at the high end of an exp area...), the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze. >__>

Bah. Aren't you a RDM main? Deal with macros and inventory full of gears. It's your fate.

Seriously, though, I was pining for accuracy gears badly when I got Vorpal Blade. Couldn't afford them... /sigh. I did have a Scorpion Harness from a friend who left the game--pretty much tanked with it full time by the time I reached Lv.64. (Borrowed a Haubergeon a few times, but ended up preferring SH over it.)

when does pld atk ever matter?
(being serious)Always, just that there aren't always enough gear options to do much about it ;D Lv.40 is when things really start to pick up though (Hello there Woodsman Rings, Swordbelt, Lifebelt).

Expect overhunting by the way. It's so easy to overhunt on crabs. People shouldn't do it, but they'll try, trust me. Speaking of Defender, that brings us to our next point. Defender is an iffy ability because it's only useful in situations you don't want to be in - when you're overhunting so incredibly that your damage flew out the window and more Defense actually does something. Situations like those aren't very conducive to good EXP, as you know. But hey, it gives your Berserk more mileage (Berserk, WS, Defender -> Cancel Defender, WS, cancel Berserk).

T.M. Espadon will give you a big boost in damage output, and your new set of gear and Defense Bonus III will give you a lot more Defense. You can definetely go pseudo-DD right now. Put on some Woodsman Rings, Tiger Stole/Spike Necklace, Valkyrie/Walkure Mask, at 55 put on Jaridah Peti and Ryl.Grd. Collar. Also, Attack Earrings. Oh, by the way, never touch your Warrior's Belt ever again, and don't touch Gluttony Sword at all. T.M. Espadon +2 all the way to 60.

Regarding Cure III: You'll be spamming it for a long time. Trust me. Get used to it.

Well I have a SH i use for RDM, and I guess I'll buy a Hauby and experiment with that. I was definitely looking at the TME HQs, because they're actually cheaper than the NQ (I suppose due to usage in level caps, etc) and I wasn't even thinking about doing the Gluttony, but instead that other broadsword that has a high damage ratio (I think it's a black sword or something to that effect)

And yeah, I agree with you there, Ifritno..

My ALT set has a "Melee", "Tank", "Turtle", "WS" and "TP" macross >_>;;

Maybe I just like pain..

Gluttony Sword isn't all that bad; the DPS is within 0.1 of Wise Wizard's Anelace (but not able to match the Atk+14, of course), and it has a much higher base damage to compensate for long delay, making it good for WS. It's a good compromise between offense and defense.

Wouldn't recommend someone go out of his way to get one, as Wise Wizard's Anelace can last until Bastard Sword. However, if the Gil is available or a friend is willing to lend one, might as well have it as an gear option.

* * *

The 295 delay doesn't bother me; my WAR40 got through vast majority of the parties on Great Axe, all with 489 to 504 delay, I think.

Not trying to derail this into a Gluttony Sword discussion but Gluttony's higher DMG doesn't help WS damage enough to make up for the lost damage over time. That and T.M. Espadon +2 kinda blows the competition out of the water, to the point that it could even be as good as Bastard Sword +1 (haven't run the numbers yet but that +12 Attack might go the distance.)

EDIT: To add something of more relevance...Spirits Within.

You all know what it does. It'll be your friend from 55 to 60. Just know that using it when you actually need the hate is a lot better than adamantly storing it up to 300 TP for like 70 extra damage. If you need to use it early, do it.

Just dinged 50.

BOY am I shiny, lol..

CONGRATULATIONS

I squealed like a schoolgirl when I hit 50. True story.

I don't think I'm taking this Parade Gorget off.

These mobs are hitting me like they're 1st graders trying to stand up to the neighborhood bully.

Who is consequentially in the 6th grade.

So essentially I'm an insecure preteen. >_>;;

That came out wrong.

If they're hitting you so softly you should be eating sushi.

You can start to ease back on Vitality. Your AF will last you all the way until the mid-seventies, and you can mix and match the other equipment slots as you please.

At around fifty-two you can fight bats at the secret entrance in KRT., and around fifty-four you'll begin fighting colibri. After that you'll probably only fight Colibri, and Imps until seventy-three. They have low defense and don't hit very hard.

Though when I was coming up the sixties everyboy was exclaiming LETS FIGHT FLIES AND CRAWLERS THAT SHOOT FIRE OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS!!! HA HA!

ERUCAS ARE HORRIBLE AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE LIKE THEM. LOSING 80% OF YOUR HP EVERY MINUTE IS NOT GOOD. COMING CLOSE TO DEATH 30 TIMES AN HOUR IS NOT GOOD. D:

*ahem* Repressed feelings.

Yeah, I just had my last Taco for the night, so I suppose I'll give sushi a try.

For the record, I use this site (http://campsitarus.blogspot.com/) for info on camp sites and such.

PT disbanded, I'm gonna go solo my Feet.

Tavnazian Taco at Lv.50? Err... Well, I guess it is better than Shallops Tropicale, but the price isn't too good.

At that level, my PLD always had three food in inventory: Shallops Tropicale, Tavnazian Taco (backup Def food, in case I died early; rarely used), and Dorado Sushi.

Come to think of it, Taco and Dorado are at the same price now. /sigh. Good thing my sister made all the Tropicale I can use for me. I guess Bream Sushi is a reasonable substitute for Dorado.

* * *

Edit:
Erukas are fairly squishy. If you don't mind the possibility of an occasional death, and confident about keeping their flames away from the backline, they are pretty good. Incinerate helped to keep our WHM awake, too.

One death in five hours of exp'ing on those for my PLD. No one else died. (Though the Taru SAM's were roasted a few times. Oh well.) Good enough for me.

Always, just that there aren't always enough gear options to do much about it ;D Lv.40 is when things really start to pick up though (Hello there Woodsman Rings, Swordbelt, Lifebelt).
.

lol, so again, when does it matter? did you disagree with me just to agree kinda sorta thing? :p

Well, if you want a specific level, I'd say 40 (because of Woodsman Rings, Refresh being right around the corner at 41 which'll let you eat Sushi, and a bunch of good DD gear becoming available shortly afterwards.) Even before that you can still use Tiger Stole, Beetle Earrings, and Mighty Rings to boost your Attack by 21 by Lv.24, which is no trivial amount at that level. So yeah, even at low levels it matters, it's just that post-Refresh our options open up a lot more.

Just tanked Ouryu.

Fucker hits HARD when he's in the air. Had a good team, so it was ok.

I can't eat Fishkabobs anymore, I think I'm above the cap.. 253 w/o Protect.

MAybe a few more levels, I suppose.. Which food is up next, Shallops? I don't want to waste 3hr food on times when I might be doing things in short bursts, or if we're doing "dry runs" *(did two on Ouryu tonight, btw)*

Just tanked Ouryu.

Fucker hits HARD when he's in the air. Had a good team, so it was ok.

I can't eat Fishkabobs anymore, I think I'm above the cap.. 253 w/o Protect.

MAybe a few more levels, I suppose.. Which food is up next, Shallops? I don't want to waste 3hr food on times when I might be doing things in short bursts, or if we're doing "dry runs" *(did two on Ouryu tonight, btw)*

With a few gear adjustment, eat attack food and use Defender all time should be able to get similar result with defensive food at level 50~60ish, but a lot cheaper. I had tried Coeurl Sub + Defender from lvl 60+ in some exp. party, and it worked.

As an alternative, I suggest for a Shield-AGI mix set up, it works very well for me. My current setup have enough shield/parry/evade that I can depend on Cure II spam, and rarely use Cure III. For Hume, just add enough AGI+ to the VIT base level. For example, if the base VIT is 50 (without gear or food), add enough AGI+ until total AGI is around 50+. The rest of the slot can fill-in stuff like defense, VIT+, ACC+, etc. (P.S. I am not sure what value is good for other race).

lol, so again, when does it matter? did you disagree with me just to agree kinda sorta thing? :p


As for PLD attack+ or DD mix setup for blood tanking, I think the goal is to raise the hate threshold, so that the DD in party can output more damage (faster and greater). It is NOT something like DD-blood-tank-all-in-one or pseudo-DD tank. Balance is the key. There is an amount of acc+/attack+ that can actually helps, but going all out like actual DD is not going to work for blood tanking in a typical exp party situation.

Update

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4787/img20070804084901ow3.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070804084901ow3.jpg)

Where is Life Belt? And, is that an Antivenom Earring? Hope you swap that out when not resting. =b

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Parade Cuirass (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Parade_Cuirass) yet... or have I missed it?

It's a damn good alternative to I.M, I know I used it (still use it) for pre-60 stuff.
Gotta love that +enmity.

Parade Cuirass is pretty awesome. Also very annoying/tedious/kind of time-consuming to get. You can use Jaridah at 55 so it really depends on how badly you want that 2 enmity for 4 levels and mission caps.

Also, I agree. No matter what kind of mob you're tanking, Lifebelt > Warrior's Belt +1 any day of the week. Try to get Woodsman + Vernerer if your budget allows. Double Woodsmans is optimal but cost-wise, you end up paying plenty more for a 2 Acc improvement, so it's really up to your budget. For whatever it's worth the Venerer also lacks the -5 Eva which helps your Flash. If you don't mind gear swapping then an attack earring to replace your Insomnia earring when not at full MP. Personally I use two attack earrings because my shield tests kind of killed my interest in small amounts of shield skill.

Speaking of which, now that I have Phalanx/Stoneskin though I should really do more extensive tests one of these days.

Sry, forgot to put that's me "Fully Turtle"

I have those earrings for HP/MP sometimes.

Think I should just sell my Warriors Belt +1 now? :)

Dunno. Post Lv.50, my def/VIT build uses Jungle Belt, but that's Mithra only. Not sure what non-Mithra PLD's would want in its place.

Full Def/VIT build is what I usually bring to events, like to CoP 5.3 Mine Shaft #2716 fight, where I have to keep two Moblins occupied for a while by myself. Even used Earth Staff for that. (lol. Is that old school or what?) Was supposed to substitute as DD for a second party missing people, but ended kiting a bit anyway.

I kept my Warrior's Belt for lower level capped fights.

bring out the gimp! as Zed would say...
no more playing checkers on renarudo's body when hes eating dirt :(

though, you're right about 21 attack not being a trivial amount. however, what does that actually translate into numbers for a pld when all your other equip are not geared to attack? that +21 attack really does end up being trivial. it's sorta like me on mnk wearing no dd gear but having o.kote.

For reall Wish? I kemeber being in Kuftal Tunnel @ 50 and they were hitting from 50/60 up to 100. Yeah >.> Defeintly overcamping there though

Just to clarify, you don't ever use Defender + Defense Food? I guess what I'm asking is if Defender and Defense Food is interchangable? As in if I use Defender can I eat Sushi while maintaining DMG taken?

Also last night I was in a PT with a SAM, RNG, and MNK and the only way I could keep hate steadily was equipping a Mermaid Ring and using a High Breath Mantle . . . . I hit for 0 most of the time.

Just wondering, how else would I be able to hold hate while NOT hitting for 0?

I know Hi Break Mantle reduces DMG. Also spamming my MP wasn't an option since there wasn't a RDM and I tried to keep myself at White HP for the 2MP/tick. I did the whole Sentinel on one fight(Provoke, Cures, WS, and Flash when Sentinet is about 2 to 3 seconds from wearing off), Shield Bash on 2nd fight, and 3rd or 4th fight would just be mainly Cure III me at start (Cure 2 as required during fight), provoke, and Flash routine.

Actually, at 24 with the gear I mentioned, there's not much more you can add. I forgot to mention Republic Subligar if you don't mind looking horrible. It's only 2 Defense less than Chain Hose. But other than that what's left? Battle Gloves, Leaping Boots and Emperor's Hairpin?

On my 68 PLD I have most of the important slots dedicated to Attack/Accuracy as well. Haubergeon, Amemet Mantle, double Woodsmans or Woodsman + Jelly Ring depending on how hard I'm being hit, Assault Earring, Life Belt, and R.G. Collar. Feet slot options are a joke, leg options are mediocre at best so I'm not giving up my +2 enmity there either, I can't equip Bomb Core. The one slot that could be a noticeable improvement is Valkyrie's Mask. Actually, I should go buy one now that I have spare money.

Either way you're kinda looking at it from the wrong perspective. Even if a DD PLD didn't devote half or more his slots to DD gear, you can't dismiss it as being trivial simply because you won't do as much damage as a DD. Look at the bigger picture. What are the other options? More VIT? A handful more Defense? The extra Acc/Attack makes a heck of a lot more difference than the VIT will. You do more damage, hold hate better (which in turn lets the DDs do more damage,) and kill faster, whereas the full defense set takes a bit less damage per hit.

EDIT: My bad, missed this somehow.Just to clarify, you don't ever use Defender + Defense Food? I guess what I'm asking is if Defender and Defense Food is interchangable? As in if I use Defender can I eat Sushi while maintaining DMG taken?

Also last night I was in a PT with a SAM, RNG, and MNK and the only way I could keep hate steadily was equipping a Mermaid Ring and using a High Breath Mantle . . . . I hit for 0 most of the time.

Just wondering, how else would I be able to hold hate while NOT hitting for 0? In short, no. I tried it once and my damage dropped sharply. It's not worth it in my opinion. By the way, High Breath Mantle doesn't lower your damage, where did you get that idea?

Right. At 50 where he's at now, again, i still dont see it being any worth his while. While I'm not dismissing it because you wouldnt do as much as a full-time DD because that's just not realistic. I'm dismissing it because as zempten nicely pointed out, hitting for 0 or single digits then hitting for that+5? is really just not that significant to warrant the +21atk you mentioned before.

An interesting point you bring up about doing more dd helps the pt overall. I was in a merit pt in mamook last night and (lately, quite a few pld) our pld went all DD gear. sadly, his vorpals were not breaking 300 and well, his hate holding was just poor from the getgo. I know merit pt dynamics are a bit different than an IT++ pt but idea is the same. Where does all this extra atk/acc actually make a difference? It's surely not visible by eyeballing it. Perhaps parsers will reveal that hey! theres a jump in dmg done but in the end, when the mob is bouncing around from the start and hate is all over the place. It makes you think does it really even help?

Funny enough, the pld wanted to go back to town and change to /nin and dual wield his joytoy and some other sword that i cant remember. he's -supposedly- pretty well merited galka pld too. 143 merits according to his search comment. /nin was even more of a disaster. no hate holding what so ever. I was on mnk/nin using sushi of all things and I'd be pulling hate 4 rounds after his initial flash.

I'm not here to bash pld. they allow me to do a lot of things a nin wouldnt. they allow me to go mnk/war or rng/war w/o the fear dying in the first 5 minutes of a pt. I just havent experienced a dd or dd-leaning pld that has done any better as his primary job than a hp/mp/enmity pld in any level range.

Idk, Zempten is on drugs. And SHEESH, Armando. Is that the gear choice you use because you chain the VTish area mobs?

I can't really imagine switching out my AF a whole heck of a lot, and instead of spending my money on the Hauby, I'd do it on a wealth of other gear (rings, that earring you mentioned, and the collar)

Edit:
Omni, I Too noticed that a lot of ppl are generally sucky. Like the DRGs who DD in that Slow% + gear, instead of switching it out statwise.

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, don't PLD have among the highest STR in the game, in addition to the High Sword skill, and the fact that the higher-tiered Broadswords aren't too far off from certain Axes?

Our job abilities aren't tailored to DDing, but it's sad to see that PLDs are barely "sub par" when they "try" to go all out.

I'd be depressed if my vorpals couldn't break 300 on VTs as a PLD/NIN geared for DD.

He needs to quit.

I don't know. I just overheard it in a LS so I just assumed it was true. My bad if that's the case.

As far as PLD's DD . . . my DD really depends on my PT to be honest. I can parse anywhere from 5% to 16%. I'm not really geared towards DD either and I try to avoid Defender if possible as well - still on stuff like crabs I'm hitting for 0 - 5 MOST of the time. I guess having 4/4 Critical Merits helps some, but I don't see my DDing as a tank come close to my NIN which was always around 23% to 35% (I played the elemental wheel NIN though).

I agree that recently most of my PT members SUCK. No accuracy food at all. No accuracy is food is okay, but then there are those who use atk but have no accuracy gear either. No accuracy food? No accuracy gear? Makes my job pretty easy. However when I do get jobs that do eat their food or are geared correctly my job is more "fun".

I'm going to throw this out there now though. At 55, when camping Colibri's becomes the main thing for like 10 lvls or more - Defender is a must I take it? Cause it's not like eatting food is going to do you jack squat seeing as they take it every 2 to 4 fights.

Also, I'm surprised you can take off your Parade Gorget. The MP seems really important to me as I rarely have RDMs in my PT but I always have BRDs that can't spare the time to cast Ballad for me cause they are running off to get the next mob. The most I can do is ask that they try to keep me at white HP for the extra tick. I guess the Sanction Refresh is a good substitue? or is it that staying in white HP is impossible at your lvl?

Omni: A good DD PLD doesn't hit for 0. Zempten was using Sushi + Defender, and if I'm not mistaken it was against crabs to boot. My average damage per swing is about 40.

Rena: Yeah, that's pretty much my setup. I use it for everything, including ITs. The only exception is that I don't use sushi when the party overhunts, but I'll still do it for low/normal ITs. But even if I don't use the sushi I stay with the Haub/Woodsmans/etc. on.Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, don't PLD have among the highest STR in the game, in addition to the High Sword skill, and the fact that the higher-tiered Broadswords aren't too far off from certain Axes?2nd highest, tied with MNK and I think a few other jobs. 1st place goes to WAR and DRK. And yes, we're the only job with an A+ in a one-handed weapon, and from 50 on bastard swords are actually stronger than axes.

Back to Omni: Attached are a few parse files for those that are curious. I didn't write what everyone's jobs were, but I was basically PLD/WAR with sushi, usually there was a BRD, weapon was Save the Queen. I don't think I did too shabby damage-wise. Make of them what you will.

Oh, yeah. Not to be rude but...
I know Hi Break Mantle reduces DMG.Wtf? ^^;

Oh, yeah. Not to be rude but...
I know Hi Break Mantle reduces DMG.
Wtf? ^^;


In short, no. I tried it once and my damage dropped sharply. It's not worth it in my opinion. By the way, High Breath Mantle doesn't lower your damage, where did you get that idea?

Hm...."not to be rude"? Restating what you've already said a second time in a more condensending manner isn't rude? Since your going to be like that though, excuse me. My apologies for being mislead.

Anyways, I can't look at your parses. What program do you use to open it. I use DVSParse so I'm not sure what to use to open it.

Hm...."not to be rude"? Restating what you've already said a second time in a more condensending manner isn't rude? Since your going to be like that though, excuse me. My apologies for being mislead.Whaaa? It was nothing personal in the first place. Omni seemed to be under the impression that the average DD PLD hits for 0 and that's just not the case. Your example wasn't typical and I was letting him know that. But what does that have to do with my question about your statement that High Breath Mantle lowers damage?

My bad about the parses, should've specified. I use Tazzylynn's parser. You can find it here (http://www.lildevilproductions.net/news.php). Once it's installed run it and choose File -> Parse Gathered Log -> choose one of the files in the .zip. Don't know if DVS Parse can open them, I've never used it.

Taking it to PMs b/c derailing a thread isn't my kind of thing.

Thanks I'll look at them.

Hey, no one derails my threads on my watch >_>;

Well, Omni can. But that's cause he's Taru.

OH YEAH! Nice seeing you at Signet the other day, Zempten, lol. Thought you fell off the edge of the Earth.

All yesterday I was doing my AF, or, at least getting the hard parts out the way. I sucessfully got my Feet, and I have the Castle Zvahl, Garlaige, Eldieme and Beadeaux Coffers.

Coffer hunting I can do on my own time, I suppose. I can get the Eldieme and Castle coffers by myself on RDM. The Beadeaux and Garlaige I'll need to be on PLD for, but at least Beadeaux I can potentially solo.

For my PLD AF Body, the fight I'll need to do in Davoi, do I need to be PLD Main to activate it?

I don't think you had to be PLD main. Also, you only need to fight one of them (can't remember which of the two.) You can train the NMs to Monastic Cavern, despawn the entire train and pull the one you have to fight.

Yeah read that on the Wiki. I'll Sub PLD, pop it, then train with my buffs, and then pop Sentinel when Stoneskin falls, hoping that Sentinel and Phalanx will be enough damage mitigation for me to survive. I think Three-Eyed is the one, and hopefully just having the quest flagged will be sufficient enough to spawn the NMs.

...
Back to Omni: Attached are a few parse files for those that are curious. I didn't write what everyone's jobs were, but I was basically PLD/WAR with sushi, usually there was a BRD, weapon was Save the Queen. I don't think I did too shabby damage-wise. Make of them what you will.

...

Quote from the log in 05-27-2007 Bibiki.prs:

"(Armando) Since Hate's not an issue I'm going to be popping Cover on WS for Save the Queen's latent, ok?"

That is awesome XD, very cool indeed :thumbsup:

I just scroll part of the log file. For damage mitigation, I don't notice any much difference between Armando's setup and the traditional party PLD setup. After reading this log, I am convinced.

How'd you D/L it? I don't see anything on the site :(

Odd. I can't find it on the site either now. Give me a few to upload it to FileFront.

And thanks Celeal, Save the Queen is very fun to use.

Took long enough. Here you go. (http://hosted.filefront.com/Doval/) Top file.

89%?

What was your gear/food?

Main: Save the Queen
Sub: R.K. Army Shield
Ammo: Bibiki Seashell
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: R.G. Collar/Shield Torque
Earrings: Assault Earring + Insomnia Earring
Body: Haubergeon full-time
Hands: Gallant Gauntlets
Rings: Woodsman + Woodsman/Jelly Ring
Back: Amemet Mantle
Waist: Life Belt
Legs: Gallant Cuisses
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Food: Squid/Dorado Sushi

If I parsed 95% hit rate in some fights then I had a BRD.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, I also alternated a lot between Swift Blade and Vorpal Blade between parties. Sometimes they'd be willing to skillchain with me (in which case Swift would help with its Lv.2 properties), other times I just Vorpal'd as I saw fit.

Well. At least Excel is fun to use.
The good news is that with 1.4m Gil, I'll be done with my PLD DD setup.

Until you find something else out. :(

Whaaa? It was nothing personal in the first place. Omni seemed to be under the impression that the average DD PLD hits for 0 and that's just not the case. Your example wasn't typical and I was letting him know that. But what does that have to do with my question about your statement that High Breath Mantle lowers damage?
My bad about the parses, should've specified. I use Tazzylynn's parser. You can find it here (http://www.lildevilproductions.net/news.php). Once it's installed run it and choose File -> Parse Gathered Log -> choose one of the files in the .zip. Don't know if DVS Parse can open them, I've never used it.

Dude, your assumptions are way off.

I was discussing 2 things.

1) does any attack gear at that lvl (which was 50s) make any sort of difference? because originally wishy was saying can u lose zerk or w/e amount of attack when using defender. i commented, does that 25% even matter at that point with mobs being so IT+++ and most your gear leaning on the def/vit side? it surely doesnt matter. +21 atk at that point is nothing when you do hit for 0 (as zempten pointed out since he is at that lvl).

2) then i was discussing how i dont see dd pld being any more effective than your general hp/def/enmity/wtfever pld.

perhaps my clarity wasnt well, so clear but really the assumption that i think any sort of dd hits for 0 is kinda condescending. ill chalk that up to bad assumptions however, from my experience merits and xp pts is that dd oriented pld do not do their job any better than a typical pld.

ive been in 2 pts in the last 2 days with plds. both merit and both on VT mobs. one was in mamook and one was in mire through nyzul isle. both pld went dd and both couldnt do their job at holding the mobs attention long enough for us to tp to 100. i dont need a parser to tell me that im soaking up mp because the tank cant hold hate.

WAR benefits from being built from the ground up to DD. And having insane axes. And a wealth of gear options.

PLD can wear other gear, but to build a DD PLD is much harder than building a DD WAR.

Not saying that WAR have it easier, but WAR, NIN, RNG and MNK benefit from having inSANE DD gear options. The fact that each of those jobs can break 1k on a consistent basis during WSes, without subbing THF, shows this.

PLDs are lucky to be in the 800ish area consistently..

5-27-2007:

Dmg output%: 24.75% (Second highest, but Riddix seems to be a melee with subpar dmg output of 18.98%, compared to top DD Moonsshadow's 29.08%)
Melee Hit%: 89.56% (highest in party)
Avoid%: 24.31%
Dmg Taken: 117145
# times damaged: 965
Avg dmg taken/hit: 121.4

Impressive damage output and accuracy. Little iffy at the Avoid%, and not sure if 121.4 dmg/hit received is all that great. This was a chain#3-4 party.


* * *

5-28-2007:

Looks like the party had some churning, so disregarding attack data.

Better Avoid, at 28.65%, but was pounded harder at 145.4 dmg/hit taken. This was not a well chaining party, spreading mostly between chain#0-4.

* * *

5-30-2007:

My parser won't display this correctly. Meh.

* * *

6-01-2007:

Dmg output%: 19.05% (Third highest)
Melee Hit%: 79.97% (highest in party)
Avoid%: 29.49%
Dmg Taken: 107696
# times damaged: 959
Avg dmg taken/hit: 112.3

Decent avoid% (29.49%), and the average damage taken/hit went down to 112.3. This was a chain#0-4 party, but the parser derived some odd data from the log so not sure about that.

* * *

Notes:
1. If we have a defensive PLD's around same level who parsed his/her performance, we can get a better idea of how avoid% and average damage taken/hit would compare.
2. Haubergeon with Evasion-20% and AGI-5 translate directly to at least 10% less evasion, with fewer shield and parrying proc rate, if used full time.

And the Woodsman has -5 Eva, don't forget that.

What if the PLD uses SH instead of Hauby, and strictly no negative evasion or negative AGI gear?

In my last 2 parties (from 2k exp. past lvl 69, to the mid of lvl 70) I was tanking with SH full time, but ate Taco most of time. Maybe in my next party I should try sushi and use parser.

throwing a few random things together:

I haven't seen it done well at all. Something always gives when a pld tries to do that in my experience.

that +21 attack really does end up being trivial.

I just havent experienced a dd or dd-leaning pld that has done any better as his primary job than a hp/mp/enmity pld in any level range.

1) Most people suck.

2) the +21 attack was an option for under 30. At that level, that's not far from the benefit of attack food (Meat jerky caps @30). Yes, it certainly will help.

3) I hope your PLDs aren't meriting in HP gear...

Armando is just trying to say that it does help. And Armando's parses through the 60s are nice, but he's right for other levels as well. Mobs don't even start hitting hard 'til 50 anyway. Just because you don't have Armando in your party, Omni, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Did I mention...

1) Most people suck.

What if the PLD uses SH instead of Hauby, and strictly no negative evasion or negative AGI gear?

My DD-hybrid build at Lv.65 isn't all that impressive:
Main: Bastard Sword (Couldn't afford Bastard Sword +1, but my mule has an Espadon +1)
Sub: Royal Knight Army Shield
Ranged: empty
Ammo: Bibiki Seashell
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: Royal Guard's Collar
L.Ear: Spike Earring
R.Ear: Minuet Earring/Spike Earring
Body: Scorpion Harness
Hands: Sipahi Dastanas
L.Ring: Venerer Ring
R.Ring: Puissance Ring
Back: Amemet Mantle
Waist: Life Belt
Legs: Royal Knight's Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

I'd like a Jaeger Ring and a Peacock Charm, but fat chance of that. May be able to get a Chivalrous Chain, though. DD gears aren't cheap. /sigh

I didn't keep most the DD accessories on full time during exp. Some of the armor pieces, though, like SH and Sipahi Dastanas, I'd often go the entire session with them on. Against the SAM's in my static, I had no chance: verses easier critters where I can go full DD gear + Dorado Sushi, their damage scale up as much if not more. Without huge amount of additional investment, I think my 6-14% damage output in party (usually under 10%) is about as good as it gets for me.

Anyway, it is possible to build a DD set without lot's of Eva- or AGI-, but the results won't be as impressive on the damage output front. Yet, this kind of balance is necessary to keep the game "fair".

BTW, Venerer + Jaeger = Acc+7, while Woodsman x2 = Acc+10 but Eva-10. Additional Acc+3 is 1.5% better hit rate, for approximately 1.5% better damage. Eva-10 is getting hit 5% more, so the question is: is 1.5% better damage output worth 5% more damage taken?

Omni, my apologies. I have to admit my posts as of late have been kind of rushed, which led to some confusion with Zempten as well. I think Lmnop said what I was trying to get at well enough though.

By the way don't forget that -10 Eva =/= +5% damage taken directly even if mobs play by the same Acc/Eva rules as us. -10 Eva would be 5% less hits evaded during Flash, which only takes up about 1/3 of the time you're being hit in a 1-Flash setup. That 1/3 is then shaved down by the ~25-30% damage reduction you get from shielding. But to be honest if I could get Jaeger Ring I'd use it.

Screw Chivalrous Chain, it's not a good enough improvement over R.G. Collar to hold on to it. I say sell it as soon as you get it and use that money for gear that WILL boost your performance by more than a marginal amount. I feel the same about Potent Belt.

Oh, sometimes my parser messes up when I try to parse multiple files in a row. Might wanna try 5-30-2007 again. I appreciate the analyses by the way. Speaking of them, I often let the WAR/NINs take some of the heat. I mean, if they pull hate there's no reason to not let them use 6 shadows. When they do it often it helps with MP conservation a lot.

/noobmode

I don't know how to wrok the parse. I used to use DVS. This one is confusing and the site makes no sense!!!

/em calls the Elite Beat Agents.

HEEEEAAAAAAALLLPP!!!

Anyway, I'm excited about exping. I have 4/5 of my AF now (Give a shoutout to the BEST THF and NIN and WAR and MNK on Gilgamesh, Zexx). And all I'm missing is the coffer from Garlaige..

I'm definitely going to be going Macro crazy. I just can't imagine NOT having on the +4 Enmity when I voke and Flash.

throwing a few random things together:
1) Most people suck.
2) the +21 attack was an option for under 30. At that level, that's not far from the benefit of attack food (Meat jerky caps @30). Yes, it certainly will help.
3) I hope your PLDs aren't meriting in HP gear...
Armando is just trying to say that it does help. And Armando's parses through the 60s are nice, but he's right for other levels as well. Mobs don't even start hitting hard 'til 50 anyway. Just because you don't have Armando in your party, Omni, doesn't mean it can't be done.
Did I mention...
1) Most people suck.

Right. Maybe I dont have Armando in my PT but then again, most PTs dont have me either.
The -21 atk is from the use of defender, which is not under 30 for a pld. It's at 50+, which was the lvl range wishie was talking about.
I havent said anything about dd pld not being possible but to make it worth while at the cost of not holding hate and soaking more mp, i dont see it.

I still prefer the hp/enmity pld because they are the only ones that can not kill dd or mages soaking them with mp within the first 10min. I had another pld last night in a merit. We were meriting off (i hope no one ever has the pleasure) treants in mire. Still not buying it. : \

Armando: I understand, it's fine. I rush through posts at times too.

I'm gonna parse some results next time. Since all my PTs the past week have been with plds. Should be interesting to share.

Even before that you can still use Tiger Stole, Beetle Earrings, and Mighty Rings to boost your Attack by 21 by Lv.24, which is no trivial amount at that level. So yeah, even at low levels it matters, it's just that post-Refresh our options open up a lot more.

Nothing about Defender. This is the 21 attack you can be wearing before anything /war even has Berserk.

The DD NINs I party with hold hate just as well as the turtle PLDs I party with.

And part of what Armando is saying is that he doesn't take much more damage. If he's voking once/mob and turning them back to him just with melee, he's doing his job. As long as the party never runs out of MP, getting hit for 6000 damage/swing doesn't matter.

Omni, I hold hate infinitely better DD'ing. This is, of course, something I can't prove with numbers. But the difference is as clear as night and day when you actually do it. I don't take that much more damage than a traditional PLD either because I help kill the mob so much faster. On the surface it looks like I soak up more MP because the damage per hit difference is so marked, but in the end the MP consumption is about the same, but my party will end up killing more mobs than the next dude's. If you want to be skeptical about my claim that MP consumption is about the same, I won't fault you for it. But believe me - I hold hate a lot better than a defensive PLD and the mob does die faster.

I can't really speak about merit parties. I've never been in one. I'm only up to 68 right now so I still have a few levels of EXP parties left before I can even consider a burn-style merit point party. However, the pseudo-DD thing at least works before merit parties, so don't let a few PLDs make you think it doesn't work at all.

I'm going to go on a limb and say that both Armando and Omni are correct, mostly because the difference in their exping at the moment.

Armando, get to Burn levels and parse your data there, damnit!

But anyway, I've seen PLD/NIN in burn, and it's terrible. Their damage isn't outstanding, they can't keep hate, and they're just big, shiny, dual-wielding morons.

I think the general concensus is what Omni has been experiencing. Furthermore, it's likely that when Omni was on the way to meriting levels, most of his experience was with Turtles, and a turtle only does one thing, but does it exceptionally well- take hits.

HOWEVER, there comes a point when you have to wonder "how much DEF/VIT is too much?"

I think that's the methodology behind the "How Blood Tanking Works" thread: finding that range so all we need to do is put on as much DD gear as we can without deviating from that range, therefore, dishing out more damage without having unecessary gear that will only marginally help damage mitigation during exp (merit or otherwise) pts.

One thing I think that's weird, is that melee for the most part have all this OUTSTANDING gear, and they perform at a certain level. What caliber of gear would a PLD need to even be able to function at comparible levels...

Or POSSIBLY, they're not making usage of Macros.

I Know, I Know, I'm still in RDM mode sometimes, but macro swaps are there for a reason. I rarely go under 100 damage in my Seraph Blades, but when I do, it's because of me missing hits or there being a Def Bonus.

Maybe there are some PLDs who don't realize that they can definitely come to camp with more than one gear set?

Maybe a lot of melee don't realize that. It's not hard to be a good melee, you just need to have the right gear for the right situation. (Haste, -Damage, Accuracy, WS, Attack/STR, etc...) Macroing is your friend. I've definitely seen some DRGs that melee in the Hecatomb set.. So I'm sure that a lot of melee don't even realize they aren't stuck to just one set..

Wisharudo, I agree 1billion percent. Just being a RDM is not excuse enough to use equip swaps. I used them on Monk even! Most people are aware of them and just don't want to bother with them. Or don't like the idea and like middle ground layouts.

The thing about some DD equipment on PLD vs incredible DD equipment on DD... it's the only job of a DD. It takes a lot to take you from 40 damage/swing to 60 damage/swing. It takes a lot to take you from 75% hit rate to 90% hit rate. If I'm already @75% accuracy, +10 accuracy only gives me 5% higher accuracy. From a relative perspective, that's like a 6.7% improvement. But if you have 50% accuracy, then +5% accuracy is a +10% improvement. Confused yet? I'm not using the right terminology for this.

The point is, relative to where you were standing, some DD stuff goes a long way. A lot of PLDs parse 1-5% of a party's damage on a regular basis. I think the best I've ever seen in my time parsing PLDs is 7-9%. Going up to an average of 10-20% party damage is an obscene climb in damage.

And tell your DDs to at least buy a pair of phalanx rings to equip swap on!

It's been a while since I leveled PLD (like back in 2004). I've only got experience with 75 PLD with all the latest changes to PLD. I don't know how huge an impact they've been, but I can try to extrapolate.

First, I wish I had some good parse data, but I don't use the Windower, so running a parser is pretty much out of the question for me. So I can't give you detailed numbers.

Second, when comparing subs for parties, you have to look at the whole party, not just you. If a sub will let the whole party be more efficient, then you have an improvement. Just looking at how much damage you take/receive.

Third, the biggest advantage to switching to more DD gear is the increase in kill speed. Comparing damage/hit is what led people to turtle up in the first place. Instead of looking at damage/hit like you guys have been, you should be looking at the damage/mob the party takes. Of course, the party composition will affect this, but you can compare subs better if you have the same people when trying each sub.

Fourth: %damage to a mob is highly dependent on who the DDs are in your party, and how many you have. Again, try to keep the party members constant for a better comparison. Preferably with the DD's using the same gear each time.

PLD/NIN: When you're PLD/NIN, you're doing 1 of 2 things: 1) Tanking an HNM, so you're therefore in HP/Emnity/Haste/Specialty gear. 2) DD'ing + support. PLD/NIN is not going to be the best DD, nor can they control hate as effectively as /WAR, but they can hold hate. Just because a PLD subs NIN, doesn't mean they stop casting spells. Flash and cures help the party save MP, while also adding more offense. The only loss is that spike hate gotten from Provoke. You also can't expect /NIN to give you better hate than /WAR, because any good DD is going to pull hate off you no matter what you sub.

When trying to tank as PLD/NIN in DD gear, WSes and DoT become more important, along with flash. From my experience, this typically works best with a NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN. I've duo tanked many a WSNM with my brother's WAR, and duo tanked Hakutaku with a NIN. All as a PLD/NIN in a DD setup. My hate keeps on PAR with the other guy all the time. Of course, my brother could easily surpass me in hate by just using his Hydra Haubert. For quicker battles, like the PFC Mamool Assault, who has hate all depends on who WS'ed last.

Kuftal Tunnel crabs: I still remember these, when we'd do a distortion SC + Freeze MB. Back then, everyone turtled up as much as possible, except a few people like me. That's because people like me actually paid attention to the effects of Defender and turtling. I really didn't use defender, because I knew that the benefit was very small for using Defender. Just by not using Defender, I was only taking like 0-10 more damage, for like 5-15 more damage to the mob. Most of the time, the difference was 0 damage taken. Only the mobs with typically high attack, or mobs way too high in level, actually did more damage. One of the few reason I do actually use defender is because I can't hit, so my damage is pointless.

Hmm, interesting. I am wondering how is PLD/NIN compare to NIN/WAR at lvl 70+? (I am not trying to say which job combo is better, just trying to gather more info)

NIN/WAR with proper gear can do some crazy things.

Enfeebling, DD and Tanking all at the same time, and when geared right, you can see them push out 800+ Jins on a constant basis.

But PLDs generally have more tools for Enmity gain, so it's a situational toss up.

Let's play with some made up numbers. To start with, let's say a mostly Def/VIT set up PLD does about 9% of the damage overall without Defender. (I was outputing about ~10% last night, with mostly a defensive setup except Scorpion Harness, so that number isn't totally made up.)

Let's say two good melee DD's, output 33% each, plus one so-so DD, outputting about 25%. To make the calculations easier (to understand), let's pretend the monster has 1000 HP, and thus dies in exactly 60 seconds in the base case.

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (33.0%)
DD2___330 (33.0%)
DD3___250 (25.0%)
PLD____90 ( 9.0%)
Mon. Death: 60 sec (100%; base case)

So, what if the PLD increases his DD output by 50%, from 90 dmg/min to 135 dmg/min? (I think this is fairly doable, with gear and food changes.)

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (31.6%)
DD2___330 (31.6%)
DD3___250 (23.9%)
PLD___135 (12.9%)
Mon. Death: 57.4 sec (96%; PLD w/50% better output)

That's... Nice. But, 4% increase in kill speed is not exactly earth shattering. How about we double the output, and say PLD is very aggressively geared for DD?

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (30.0%)
DD2___330 (30.0%)
DD3___250 (22.9%)
PLD___180 (16.5%)
Mon. Death: 55.0 sec (92%; PLD w/100% better output)

Well, 8% better kill speed is not bad at all. What if, though, the so-so DD is actually as good as other DD's? Instead of upping PLD's output, let's bring DD3 to par:

____dmg/min______
DD1___330 (30.6%)
DD2___330 (30.6%)
DD3___330 (30.6%)
PLD____90 ( 8.3%)
Mon. Death: 55.6 sec (93%; Def/VIT PLD w/3 good DD's)

As you can see, bring up one DD up to par does almost as much as doubling a PLD's output in terms of kill speed.

Oh, and if getting 8% better kill speed by doubling the PLD's output doesn't require more MP rest time, then it'd turn a 4000 exp/hour base party into a 4330 exp/hour killing machine.

The 7% better kill speed by getting DD3 up to par would only give 4296 exp/hour. ^_-

* * *

I don't know why my experience doesn't match Armando's in terms of tanking well on DD setup; it just has been easier to hold the IT monsters while turtled up. Hard to explain, but it just is.

* * *

Plus, it's hard to get proper support outside of static parties to go the DD route while still tanking.

I tried a PUG last night, and I was getting Haste, but inconsistent Regen, and no Flash from WHM. When the RDM was replaced by a BRD, he would not set up a 3 cycle buff routine to give me at least one Ballad mid battle. (Can't stand with the mages in the back, due to Incinerate.)

I could only snatch Ballads while THF was out pulling. Sometimes he'd play Ballad long before I can even get back there. Then, as soon as THF came back, he'd override my Ballad with melee buffs. -_-#

That ended up over burdening the WHM since I couldn't cure as much. Then, the idiot BRD had the audacity to run off for his "end game style puling ftw lol" and pulled more fire breathing crawlers while THF was pulling--with both me and the WHM were low on MP.

To top it off, the BRD claimed to be a PLD75, and said something like "< PLD75 not used to {Ballad} lol".

lolJerkBRD is more like it.

Anyway, the point is I don't feel very safe going DD without good support.

* * *

Heck, I don't feel very safe with that BRD, period. Three deaths while fighting with that BRD in party, zero for over two plus hours before him. (I seriously considered letting one of the crawlers he pulled beat him to a pulp, but I know the WHM was too nice, and would have cured him.)

I would agree that if the backline don't know how to support, turtle up is always safer.

I've read on Alla that a properly-equipped PLD/NIN DD can hold his own damage-wise. Nothing amazing, but the catch is that you're also contibuting one more MP pool that can Cure, plus Flash and things like Cover.

Sorries Rena, my connection over here sucks so it'll be a while ; ; Plus I still need to finish taking NIN to 37 >_>

Edit: Somehow I didn't see that Itazura and Celeal posted above me. Itazura, how are you calculating the mob's death time?

Itazura, how are you calculating the mob's death time?
I've normally observed in parties: Good DD's tend to get 33% (and up), so-so ones tend to be about 25% (or less), and turtle PLD tend to be 9% (or less).

Then, I made up an imaginary monster which has exactly 1000 HP, and dies in exactly 60 seconds for the "base" party setup of Good DD x1, So-so DD, PLD, others.

Then, Mon. Death = 1000 HP / (aggregate HP dmg/min)

So, for the base case, it's 1000 HP / (330 + 330 + 250 + 90) = 1 min = 60 seconds, according to the percentages I set up earlier.

Based on that, I made up a dmg/min number for each DD and PLD (330 dmg/min, 330 dmg/min, 250 dmg/min, 90 dmg/min) for the base case.

The dmg/min (both the real players or my made up ones) shouldn't change much for DD's when we adjust the PLD, so they are good to have.

Then, adjusting the PLD's output only, I feed it back to:
Mon. Death = 1000 HP / (aggregate HP dmg/min)

to get the number of minutes, which is then converted into seconds.

* * *

The important thing is not how long each setup takes to kill critters, but how much faster (percentage wise) each improved setup compared to the base.

Note that some of the number I presented have been rounded off for easier viewing, but not on the spreadsheet, so you may get a percentage more or less here and there if you do the calculations. The differences shouldn't be large, though.

What Ifritno said is hypothetically theoritical, but I understood the spirit of the post. a PLD that contributes damage will be better than one that is just an MP Sponge..

But I'll echo Omni's views in that over time, does the varying difference from maybe 8-10% as opposed to 11-13% make that much of an impact when there are a huge number of factors that can influence a fight at any given time?

Which is why I'll direct this next part to the older PLDs: How much gear is needed to notice a definite change in ability and contribution? It may be nice to have a few trace pieces of gear here or there, but how much is really needed to make a big Splash and not just a trinkle?

Hmm. Maybe the reason your numbers don't show a marked improvement in EXP rates are because they don't take into account the whole picture (which would be a lot harder to calculate out?) Better DD capabilities also mean a LOT better and a LOT more Vorpal Blades, and it also means plenty more skillchains. Also, if the PLD's theoretical damage goes up, so does his hate and that means the DD's damage should go up as well. Chain bonuses are also dependant on speed kill, so that could skew the EXP numbers even further as well.

Rena: I consider the basis/minimum for a good PLD DD set to be:
- Lifebelt (this goes without saying)
- R.G. Collar (macro in Shield Torque as you see fit...but you'll still need this for WS.)
- Woodsman + Venerer (replace Venerer with Jelly when eating sushi)
- Haubergeon
- Amemet Mantle
- At least one Attack earring (many like wearing Insomnia or Buckler on the other.)
- A good sword (i.e. not Gluttony.)

The rest (Assault Earring, a second Woodsman, Amemet HQ, Tiphia Sting, Valkyrie's Mask) are icing. Of course, they help, but they're smaller improvements and many cost plenty to boot. Those are pieces that you don't have to break the bank or stop to farm like a madman for.

Of those, only Woodsman and Haubergeon represent big investments. Lifebelt and R.G. Collar should be part of your gear already. Between Haubergeon, Woodsman/Venerer, Amemet Mantle and a Spike Earring you're looking at +6 STR, +32 Attack (STR factored in), and +17-18 Accuracy (DEX factored in.) That'll bump up your damage per hit a good, noticeable amount and increase your hit rate by about 8.5-9% (assuming R.G. Collar but no Venerer.) It takes Sushi to make the big difference, though.

*shrug* It's back of the envolope type of calculation; it gives an idea of the magnitude of improvement to be expected, not the actual numbers. They say a 100% better DD PLD gives some where around 8% improvement in kill speed. It also does not distinguish between melee hits and WS--I lumped it all together when I wrote "100% improvement"--whatever the combination of melee and WS that is.

Keep in mind number of additional Vorpal Blade you get is exactly the number of additional regular melee hits you get, at best. If you have to hold TP more often, then it'd actually fall behind your melee hits. Another way of saying it is: if you are getting "A LOT MORE" Vorpal Blades, you're getting at least as much "A LOT MORE" melee hits.

Since you do have the more accurate and damaging WS capability, what is the percentage of your damage from Vorpal Blade, anyway? I would suspect the lion's share of your output is still the regular hits--increasing the damage from WS probably has a smaller effect than increasing the "DoT" aspect of your damage game.

Something else I forgot to add. When you go go a more DD route, you hep kill the mob faster. Through your own increased damage, and the more your party can put out because of an increased hate line. So with faster kills, the mob will have less rounds to hit you. So you want to look at the average damage you take per fight, along with the average damage the whole party takes, and compare that.

It also does not distinguish between melee hits and WS--I lumped it all together when I wrote "100% improvement"--whatever the combination of melee and WS that is.Ah, that's right. I forgot about that. That still doesn't address the possibility of extra skillchains/MBs, higher damage from the other DDs due to a higher hate line, and higher EXP chains though.
Since you do have the more accurate and damaging WS capability, what is the percentage of your damage from Vorpal Blade, anyway? I would suspect the lion's share of your output is still the regular hits--increasing the damage from WS probably has a smaller effect than increasing the "DoT" aspect of your damage game.Well, my damage is more or less 2/3 DoT and 1/3 WS. This is both what you'd expect in theory (with a parsed average of 40 damage a hit and 300 damage a WS, and needing ~15 hits post-WS to get back up to 100 assuming no extra TP gain, that's 600 damage during the TP building phase and 300 from WS) and what my parsed total melee/WS damages say.

do me a favor, Armando. Tally up what you lose with said basic DD items. What's our "Opportunity Cost" so to speak?

Opportunity cost meaning what? I think I understand what you're saying, Lumnop, but I believe it was addressed earlier that the tradeoff from switching to DD from Turtle is minuscule, or marginal at best, and it is offset by the fact that kills are reasonably faster.

At least I hope so. I have soft Taru skin, so I'm still a little wary. But as I've said before, if it doesn't work out, I can macro in the Turtle gear and just put in DD gear on lower-end mobs.

I feel that a lot of a DD PLD's job is also judgment. I can't imagine having minus evasion or negative defense if I was tanking Spiders, and one of my DDs was a Move Spamming BLU that just LOVED feeding the mob TP..

Armando, I don't have a Venerer, but I have a Shikaree, and I suppose that +2 is better than nothing, although sometimes it feels a bit gimp.

And I just bought that AWESOME ring that is both Vit and Dex, so I'm gonna rock with that for a while (no harm in macroing it into my Acc build though).

Opportunity cost meaning what? I think I understand what you're saying, Lumnop, but I believe it was addressed earlier that the tradeoff from switching to DD from Turtle is minuscule, or marginal at best, and it is offset by the fact that kills are reasonably faster.

Opportunity cost meaning what you're missing out on. If you're out watching movies with your friends, the opportunity cost is an eventful night of FFXI. Because you cannot do both at the same time. In regards to this thread:

you're looking at +6 STR, +32 Attack (STR factored in), and +17-18 Accuracy (DEX factored in.)

I want to know the exact value of stats (vit, defense, enmity, mp, hp, whatever) that're being given up for those DD stats.

doesn't address the possibility of extra skillchains/MBs, higher damage from the other DDs due to a higher hate line, and higher EXP chains though.
Nope, however...

I don't have solid proof, but it's my experience that extra damage from skillchain effect is somewhat iffy, unless a THF is closing it or someone is thoughtful enough to use a -ton Ninjtsu. SC in general has the effect of holding TP longer, which degrades the dmg/TP potential. MB is a real possibility to increase output, though, given how much monsters like to resist. Higher exp chain is possible if not taking extra damage to the point of needing MP rest. Also keep in mind that chaining is limited often more by available preys and pulling distance than by killing speed.

As for letting DD's go wilder, keep in mind that while your experience is that going the DD route let you do that better, that is not an universally shared opinion.

I was a mostly turtle PLD65 (with sole exception of SH) last night, whose party thought right after the first provoke is a great time to let lose WS's. (Sometimes before even that, when I'm a bit slow targeting the monster.)

Problem? Some, but people went into yellow HP only a handful of times (I run out of job abilities and was low on MP--fast kills with no refresher), and no one ever dropped to orange except me.

While I didn't have a suicidal DRK/WAR who went Ryanracer on me (SE + LR + Berserk + WS + ... Provoke?!) to push the boundry, I'm a little skeptical anything short of full enmity build can raise the bar all that much higher. Still, when people can already WS'ing right off the bat, how much higher do PLD's need to go?

* * *

I didn't want to go turtle last night, but we had no refresher (PLD, BLU, DRK, DRG, SMN, WHM), and the SMN was more interested in melee'ing avatars and a buff once every three battle or so than helping WHM cure for the first 85% of the fight.

Well, the SMN managed to beat Mikan (the wyvern) by a small margin, but didn't quite out do the mostly turtle PLD who was blinded often by mimicked Flash and had TP stolen by a pinkish bird...

Ok, I'll compare Armando's DD setup to a similarly leveled but Straight Turtle PLD

Edit:
Making a spreadsheet, too much work.

....but we had no refresher (PLD, BLU, DRK, DRG, SMN, WHM)....


I would agree that go defensive takes top priority in this setup (trying to maximize the hate with minimal resource?). Those skillful tank and healer can make refresher-less party functional.

From my experience of NIN tank and depending on DoT to hold hate, melee attack takes "time" to build hate. I think a DD PLD-tank build may subject to same restriction too, to a certain extend.

Ok, I'll compare Armando's DD setup to a similarly leveled but Straight Turtle PLD

For turtle build Lv66 or so, just modify like this:

Main: Save the Queen -> Espadon/Espadon +1
Sub: R.K. Army Shield
Ammo: Bibiki Seashell
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: R.G. Collar/Shield Torque -> Shield Torque/Parade Gorget
Earrings: Assault Earring + Insomnia Earring -> Mercenary/Buckler/Drone*
Body: Haubergeon full-time -> Gallant Surcoat
Hands: Gallant Gauntlets
Rings: Woodsman + Woodsman/Jelly Ring -> Hercules/Jelly/Unyielding
Back: Amemet Mantle -> Knightly/High Breath
Waist: Life Belt -> Jungle Belt (Mithra only, and usually not for exp)
Legs: Gallant Cuisses
Feet: Gallant Leggings

Food: Squid/Dorado Sushi -> Tavnazian Taco or Dorado/Bream Sushi

* I don't use Drone Earring, but have a Parrying Earring. No, I don't know why, either.

I'm probably missing quite a few different alternative pieces, but that's a reasonable start. (I'm gonna cry like a baby if Knightly Earring is a requirement for turtling.)

Anyhow, IMO, DD-hybrid PLD's should have at least some of those turtle gears/food for emergencies (hiya links), and turtle PLD's should have some of those DD gears/food for WS and when working with NIN's. (Yes, it happens once in a blue moon--can be loads of fun when it does.)

* * *
Edit:
I would agree that go defensive takes top priority in this setup (trying to maximize the hate with minimal resource?). Those skillful tank and healer can make refresher-less party functional.
Oh, it was functional enough; chain#4's easily, and I think we may have hit chain#7 once?

Would have been better if the SMN spent less time/MP trying to DD (Dark Spirit? What the heck?) and offload some healing from WHM, and other little adjustments, but this is pretty good as far as PUG's go: Two great DD's and a good WHM in one party is more than one can hope for.

Well, maybe I should say Colibris are more broken than a PLD tank without a refresher.

WARNING: By the time I'm done with this post, I'm sure someone will have posted between me and Lmnop.

Well, taking off a Haubergeon, R.G. Collar (assume Medieval Gorget -> Shield Torque, which I've seen people do), Spike Earring, Woodsman Ring (assume Jelly Ring is on the other slot 24/7), and Amemet Mantle, you'd have -6 STR, -32 Attack, -21-22 Accuracy. Now let's run some numbers. I'm at Lv.68. For a mob to be IT it needs to be at least 8 levels higher than me. So my enemy will be an average (non-beastman, non-crab, etc.) Lv.76 WAR/WAR mob. The mob's stats will be calculated using Studio Gobli's formulas. PLD A will be a Lv.68 Elvaan PLD/WAR wearing Lifebelt and using Espadon +1 and R.K. Army Shield. PLD B will have PLD A's gear and the above-mentioned DD gear.

Enemy
Defense: 287 after Dia II (originally 320)
VIT: 72
Evasion: 306

PLD A
Attack: 292(.5)
STR: 71 +2
Accuracy: 273

PLD B
Attack: 324(.5)
STR: 71 +8
Accuracy: 294(.5)

PLD A vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 11-46 normal, 57-92 crit
Average normal hit: 28.5
Average crit: 74.5
Hit rate: 42.5%

PLD B vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 17-47 normal, 64-94 crit
Average normal hit: 32
Average crit: 79
Hit rate: 53%

With Haste, both PLDs will do 16.48 hits/minute. Assuming a 5% crit rate...
PLD A: 215.72 damage/min, 47.63 TP/min
PLD B: 300.03 damage/min, 59.39 TP/min
DoT increase: 39%
TP speed increase: 25%

This does not factor in Sushi, or WS (obviously PLD B does more Vorpal Blades, and his Vorpal Blades are stronger.)

Heh, the numbers surprised even me. The increase is pretty substantial and this is just trading off VIT for Acc/Attack.

EDIT: Here's part II. Let's get the damage for PLD C, who is on the opposite end of the PLD spectrum from A. PLD C wears PLD B's gear, but also eats Sushi. Let's be cheap and give him Squid.

PLD C

Accuracy: 341

PLD C vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 17-47 normal, 64-94 crit
Average normal hit: 32
Average crit: 79
Hit rate: 76.5%

A vs C...
PLD A: 215.72 damage/min, 47.63 TP/min
PLD C: 433.06 damage/min, 85.73 TP/min
DoT increase: 101%
TP speed increase: 80%

Aside from the DoT increase PLD C will do almost twice as many Vorpal Blades as A and they'll also be significantly stronger than A's. The big gap in damage between A and C explains why I hold hate so much better than when I used to go turtle style.

EDIT2: Bah, forgot to take into account Double Attack. Oh well.
EDIT3: Fuck, forgot to add Attack Bonus from /WAR in there. Gaaaaah.
EDIT4: PLD B and C's damage range was lower than what it should be.

We know that these days, DDs don't do a very good job of holding back. They will WS right off the bat. In this situation, a turtle doesn't do you any good. The only ways to get hate:
-spam JAs
-wait for them to take sufficient damage for you to cure them for hate (you PLDs DO have cure <stpc> macros, RIGHT?!?? If you cannot cure others while engaged, learn how or GTFoff of PLD).

If you have a decent DD build (even if you only use it on WSs, you can swap it on whenever you don't have hate), it'll get hate pointed at you faster.

As for post #0: It may be worth noting that Defender is worth more to a PLD eating sushi than one on tacos.

I think we can all certainly agree that having both is the way to go. When you're fighting Puks outside of mamook, you'll want some DD stuff. When someone pulls a Skoffin, you may just want to have some serious defense ready.

Don't get me wrong, this is a interesting read trying to find the line between a turtle or DD build for Plds, but I have to ask, why not just invite a thief?

Most of the TA+ Shark Bites I see from thiefs do 800-1k+ damage on mobs, which is a ton of added enmity onto the tank. I've seen some interesting results from thiefs who swapped in +enmity gear for their TA, I don't know how much more hate that added vs how much more damage they would have done but it was a interesting idea nonetheless.

I'd think with a thief you could easily go with a more DD build on your paladin and still hold hate very easily, and a good thief takes care of those pesky DD who go all out before the pld can even do anything.

But with a good THF, same can apply to a traditional defensive PLD tank, it also apply to NIN tank. The point is what PLD should aim for after his damage mitigration is reaching the diminish-return?

And speaking about dmg mitigration: in later exp camps, most MP-sink does not come from physical attack. For example, Curse Sphere spam by flies in Imps camp, Bomb Toss and Healing Breeze spam in Bibiki Bay, are the exp-chain breakers.

Vyuru: A THF isn't necessary to pull off the DD approach. DD PLD holds hate a lot better than the turtle kind (this much I guarantee.) I usually had a THF with me at some point or another in those Bibiki parties and the mob would turn to me if I so much as sneezed. Anyhow, let's correct those previous numbers for the sake of perfection...

Enemy
Defense: 287 after Dia II (originally 320)
VIT: 72
Evasion: 306

PLD A
Attack: 302(.5)
STR: 71 +2
Accuracy: 273

PLD B
Attack: 334(.5)
STR: 71 +8
Accuracy: 294(.5)

PLD C
Attack: 334(.5)
STR: 71 +8
Accuracy: 341

PLD A vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 12-46 normal, 58-92 crit
Average normal hit: 29
Average crit: 75
Hit rate: 42.5%

PLD B vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 19-47 normal, 66-94 crit
Average normal hit: 33
Average crit: 80
Hit rate: 53%

PLD C vs Enemy:
Melee hit: 19-47 normal, 66-94 crit
Average normal hit: 33
Average crit: 80
Hit rate: 76.5%

-----

PLD A: 241.17 damage/min, 52.40 TP/min
PLD B: 339.67 damage/min, 65.34 TP/min
PLD C: 490.29 damage/min, 94.31 TP/min

B vs A:
DoT improvement: 41%
TP improvement: 25%

C vs A:
DoT improvement: 103%
TP improvement: 80%

More or less the same outcome as the previous one. Although C is still up for debate since C can't eat Defense food, B's advantages over A are pretty damned hard to deny. VIT whoring won't improve your performance anywhere near that much.

EDIT: Oops! I had originally calculated PLD B's minimum PDIF as being 0.31 when it should've been 0.37 back in the previous post. That's why when I added the 10 Attack from Attack Bonus on this post it seemed to benefit B and C more. Fixing...

Itazura stopped playing? Whaaaaa

The whole reason the DD-hybrid thing works better for hate holding is because +/- HP effects (damage and cures) are the king of hate. JA's just can't keep up with the pace of hate generated by damage/curing. Where it doesn't work is when: A) You bleed hate too quickly from taking too much damage. or B) You can't hit or damage the mob. Those are cases when the only thing you can rely on for hate is cures, spells, and JAs.

When you turtle up, you're limiting your hate gain to cures, spells, and JA's. Your damage is either really low, or non-existent. With a more DD oriented build, that damage becomes another tool. With adjustments based on the mob, it could possibly become the most significant factor.

I'll use Apollyon NW as an example. I usually turtled up for bosses, since you know, their big HNM-like bosses. For the Ram boss on floor 2, I would switch to all my emnity gear, and pop defender (I use defense food for this zone). Now, since this zone gives a chest that resets all JA's, including 2hrs, people can all go ape wild. With my usual build, all my brother has to do is pop Mighty Strikes, and he'll have hate over all my JA's, flash, and cure spam. So as an experiment last run, I stayed in my DD-hybrid gear and didn't use defender (I still use def food). My DD gear gives me plenty of accuracy to do this on the normal mobs, and worked great on the boss. With the proper timing of my JA's, I was able to hold hate with damage, cures, flash, and JA's. Usually the boss will stick on my brother once he grabs hate, but this time I just used flash, and it turned back to me and stayed.

Since that worked so well, I decided to do the same test on the next boss, a giant turtle type. I usually turtle up for this guy too, but I went for more DD this time. Usually we bounce hate between me and a blink tanker, with me being the only one to hold hate near the end. This time, I held hate the whole time. Most people would think having a PLD in DD gear tank for an NM like this (long fight) with a small group to be suicidal. Instead, I helped us kill it faster, and thus MP wasn't an issue. Granted, a blink tank would be more MP efficient, but that wasn't the point. It only shows that turtling isn't always the best option.

Itazura stopped playing? Whaaaaa
Er... I tried? Guess I'm too much of an addict. /sigh

We know that these days, DDs don't do a very good job of holding back. They will WS right off the bat. In this situation, a turtle doesn't do you any good. The only ways to get hate:
-spam JAs
-wait for them to take sufficient damage for you to cure them for hate (you PLDs DO have cure <stpc> macros, RIGHT?!?? If you cannot cure others while engaged, learn how or GTFoff of PLD).

... I just had a big post explaining that I was tanking reasonably well on a mostly turtle build, with DD's who WS right off the bat. It's almost the same old routine of:

1. Start of the battle: Flash + Provoke + (one of: Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, 300% TP Spirits Within.)
2. Continue battle with Provoke; use Flash if there's enough life left to the monster.
3. Drop in cures when needed.

It's PLD65/WAR32, so no Warcry, yet--and no Spirits Within last time, since it was Colibri.

Sentinel is used with Berserk, and Defender used after Sentinel wears off, in case I get enough TP for a Swift Blade before Berserk wears off. WS has accuracy and STR gear macroed in.

Turtle does just fine, thank you.

* * *

Would this work if it's a DRK/WAR with Berserk and Souleater on initial WS? Probably not. Then again, how would a DD PLD do much better against that kind of WS just 3 seconds into the battle?

In all fairness the DD PLD could also open up the fight with a 300 damage WS, which closes the gap a lot. And even if he didn't, the DD PLD will still get hate faster than the turtle by virtue of doing more damage. Granted you can't be DD PLD in the truest sense of the term against Colibri since they eat food, so you got me on that one.

Derail starts here.

Also, purely out of my own curiosity (this is the first time I do such a thorough side-by-side analysis of different gear sets) I'm going to be factoring WS's into each setup's damage to see how the difference in their damages changes. I figured I'd post it here for the curious; those who don't care anymore can just skip this part if they so wish.

Assuming Vorpal Blade has normal crit rate at 100% (Rampage does, so I assume so does Vorpal) then the average Vorpal Blades would be...
PLD A: 81.72 damage
PLD B: 116.13 damage
PLD C: 167.63 damage

In order for PLD A to do the 14 hits needed to reach 100 TP after landing a WS, he'd need approximately 29.95 attack rounds at a hit rate of 42.5% and having 10% Double Attack. He'd do 431.2 damage in those 14 hits, and Vorpal Blade for 81.72, for a total of 512.92 damage every 109.02 secs.

PLD B would need approximately 24.01 attack rounds. He'd do 494.9 damage and WS for 116.13 damage for a total of 611.03 damage every 87.40 secs.

PLD C would need approximately 16.64 attack rounds. He'd do 494.9 damage and WS for 167.63 damage for a total of 662.53 damage every 60.57 secs.

Now, factoring in normal swings as well as WS, the damages are:
PLD A: 282.29 damage/minute
PLD B: 419.47 damage/minute
PLD C: 656.30 damage/minute

Now B is a 49% improvement in overall damage compared to A (as opposed to the previous 41%) and C is a 132% improvement (as opposed to 103%.) In all fairness, though, A and B should've been using Spirits Within, which even at 90% HP would've done 147 and 154 damage per use respectively. (C should still use Vorpal because it has the potential to get lucky.) If we take that into account, then the damages are...

PLD A: 322.07 damage/minute
PLD B: 440.66 damage/minute
PLD C: 656.30 damage/minute

There. That's a fairer comparison. Now B is a 37% improvement compared to A, and C is a 204% improvement over A. Technically A can equip the same gear as B during WS so I should do a third comparison, but I'm too lazy. For all practical purposes both A and B should use Spirits Within. Well, really, they should use Swift Blade but that one's harder to calculate since I don't know by how much Swift Blade boosts Accuracy.

Well, that was interesting. It seems the fact that the higher your hit rate, you not only WS more often but do stronger WS as well makes it so increasing your hit rate actually increases your total damage by more than what your DoT increased by. (e.g. in the original example C had 103% more DoT than A, but his total damage was actually 132% higher.)

/derail

I wanna see if I can summarise this convo with a single sentence.

"There is nothing wrong with turtle Paladin, but Pseudo-Damage Paladin is more effective."

Sound okay?

Oh and I turtle'd it up to 75 with no complaints and a lot of complements, so I know where you are coming from IfritnoItazura. :)

btw,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/TimLochore/MuchWin.jpg

I wanna see if I can summarise this convo with a single sentence.
"There is nothing wrong with turtle Paladin, but Pseudo-Damage Paladin is more effective."
Sound okay?
I'd change it to:
There's nothing wrong with turtling up, nor with a DD-Hybrid. Just know when to use which to be most effective.

Agreed. Everytime I join a PT now people go "Where's your Gallant Surcoat" (b/c I'm wearing a hauby full-time now) and I just ask them to give me 2 or 3 mobs so I can decide if I can tank while playing a mini-DD. If I can I pop in my Dorando Sushi and get to work otherwise I'll pop in a tank food. If those 30 mins things go sour I always have my full tank gear with me so it's not a problem. People are usually willing to accept those terms.

As long as. . . .
1) Exp Chains keep going
2) There is zero downtime
3) Your holding majority of hate, 95%
then I don't see a problem with tanking while adding a dose of damage.

So anyways, I thought I'd share my parses with you guys. I'm not by any means close to Armando's parses but I just wanted to show it to you guys to show that DDing in Aydeewa Subterrance on those crawler's/puks is possible. Oh, and I took the liberty in erasing their names and just placing their jobs/subjobs for privacy purposes.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Zempten/PLDLvl59-60.jpg
59 WAR
58 BLM
59 SAM
60 PLD
60 BRD
59 RDM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Zempten/PLDLvl60-61.jpg
60 WAR
59 BLM
60 SAM
61 PLD
61 BRD
60 RDM




My gear was...
Sword: Gluttony Sword
Shield: Royal Knight Army shield
Ammo: Bibiki Shell
Head: Gallant Coronet
Neck: Chivalrous Chain
Ear1: Buckler Earring
Ear2: Mercenary's Earring
Body: Haubergon
Hands: Gallant Gauntlets
Ring1: Mermaid Ring
Ring2: Unyielding Ring
Back: Knightly Mantle
Waist: Lifebelt
Legs: Gallant Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

I know people don't like the Gluttony Sword, but I'm not exactly the richest of my server so I'll get by till Joyeuse. As far as WS go I swap in Anment Mantle +1, Sniper Rings, and Spike Earrings (although the Assault Earring looks nice I might buy one). So basically I'm the cheapest DDing PLD out there >.>. However it still works to an extent and I never expected to parse in the 20% to 30% range. Parsing where I am and seeing my vorpals go from 200-400 makes me happy.

Also to note, holding hate was indeed alot easiar as I rarely had to throw up Sentinel (still used Sentinel after a few tests b/c DMG down and more enmity. .what's not to love about that?) or Shield Bash to grab hate during times people spam their WS in the beginning. I guess I'm stupid but when I see people have 100% TP at the beginning of the fight I purposely use Berserk to lower my HP by some, cancel it and throw up a Cure 4 or multiple Cure 3s (usually 2) and that's enough for me to grab back hate after they WS. I also like to cure others when they took the hate for too long cause I feel its sorta like compensation for not holding hate well.

Oh and how's it going Renarudo? LOL, no I didn't fall of the face of the planet I've just had really bad year in college and I had to concentrate the next year to get my grades back up . .. I'll have to do it for this year too T.T Hope to see you around some more around Gilgamesh though ^ ^

P.S: Sorry if you have to strain your eyes to see the parse results even after you click the above thingy to make it a bit bigger T.T

So I tried a more "melee" approach in this PT last night. Had a PL, so I guess the setup worked. Only wished that DVS Parse worked, because I don't understand how the hell to use the one Armando linked to. Anyway:

PLD DRK DRG SAMN RNG WHM (and a PLD).

No Refresh, which I HATE, but I decided that meant that I only had to spot Cure 3 instead of spamming it, and sticking with my normal rotation.

Oh, and interestingly enough, the Beetles in the bottom of Garlaige weren't even hitting me that hard, and I found it possible to tank with Berserk up.

EXP/hour rate sucked, as I had ExpWatch running. But at the very least in about 1.5 hours I got 5k exp, so I'm halfway into 51, and I'll be able to wear my AF feet with a subpar party tonight (need to katch up with the group I was staticing with.. They're all about to ding 54!!! *_*)

But in any case, I noticed I wasn't getting hit that hard even with Fishkabobs, so I went with Squid Sushi. After I finish the food I have on me (possibly by level 53/54 I'll be done), I'll go with Dorado Sushi most of the time.

Never had a problem holding hate, and I decided to equip my Acc rings and Belt, giving me a total of 17+ Acc.

While the setup was "ok" I would have been better with a BLM or a SMN, because at any given fight, there were 2 Distortion SCs from any combination of the melee.

Sadly, had we had a BLM, MBing SMA, or an EFFING RDM (*HINT EFFING HINT*) it could have easily been a 5k-6k/hr pt.

But the fact that I was able to either keep up (TP-wise) with the melee (to a certain extent) and be able to at least MB with SOMEONE sells me on the idea of Hybrid/PLD.

Possibly because I was on the higher end of the camp (mobs didn't hit that hard, and PT was 48-50 while I was 51 the whole time *_*), but I suppose it'll be a situational thing from now on.

I know how it feels to be in a party with no Refresh and no way to take advantage of your awesomeness. It sucks, but oh well. And yeah, being able to keep up (sometimes exceed - go go Shield Mastery!) DD TP gain speed is a heck of a lot of fun though. I <3 being able to extend skillchains or even make new ones for the party.

Keep on raping in the name of all that's good and shiny, Rena.

Yes, my Ass has been very shiny lately. I almost feel bad for all my Melee: they're still wearing Brigidane. >:-]

And I'm gonna get the newest DVS Parse. I neeed to start seeing where I need to trim my gear.

What's wrong with your DVS? I didn't have much problems. Just press goto File -> Start New Parse -> Press Enter when window opens up and it'll start parsing when your PT starts fighting. If you want to save just goto File -> Export Parse. To look at your parse another time just goto your Exports folder and click it open.

I'll agree that being able to DD has kept me awake while playing PLD. I don't know how else I'd be able to keep awake.

I find it interesting that your able to tank with Berserk up. How?

I had 1.5.0, and apparently it wasn't working. Just got 1.7.Something, so hopefully I'll find out tonight. Didn't work when I tried opening it and testing it for a bit while at work tho, but we'll see in tonights (hopeful) exp.

How?

IDK, to be honest. I was higher than the rest of the party, but not "higher" than the camp warranted. Well. I've never been the highest in the pt, so idk how everyone else's Exp is affected. But in anycase, the exp was decent for me, but I knew the kills were taking a long time because not ONCE did I try to activate Sentinel of SB and discover that both still had some cool-down.

If I don't have at least 1 minute cool down, the pt isn't killing fast enough.

But maybe it was because I was getting Cure Bombed by the WHM like it was going out of style, so I stopped paying attention to the niggling nuances of tanking, but the mobs generally weren't even hitting me hard.

Oh: And I've been a RDM since I started the game (NA Release) and I've been 75 almost 1 and a half years and have been soloing my arse off ever since I was able to put on my AF Hat.

Why am I saying all this?

Because I'm PISSED that at 51PLD, I finally am NOT capped out on Parry.

This some ol BS. -_-

And at the rate I'm going, using PLD to cap out Parrying isn't really looking like it'll work.. Because I'm sure I'll level before I gain another skill raise. :(

Just a note: For DVS Parser, it seems to stop parsing when switch between mules (log off/on).

I haven't exp PLD for a while; I was trying to get the Parade Gorget.... 1/7, no drops for me (I let my lvl 50 PLD friend to have it first)... me back to farm more Newts and leveling lolPUP (seriously, PUP is very fun for solo or duo/trio party)

Getting back on topic~ beside DD-mix PLD, an alternative is setting up Cover and Cure Bomb the DD who get hates. This tactic works well with big spike hater like BLM, DRK, RNG, etc. In my last party exp. on Imp + Fly, I had a RNG/SAM who use meat and fire staff. For every Sharpshot, he would Sidewinder -> Mediate -> Sidewinder -> Barrage -> Sidewinder ~(*.*)~ In between Cover + Cure Bomb and Seigan + Third Eye, it went very smoothly.

Subbing SAM?

Yeah, he was trying to Die..

Well, gear alone can only do so much. For stuff like Bomb Toss spam, Curse Sphere spam, Firaga III... not much can be done with the traditional DEF+/VIT+ approach (besides Rampart, Barsleep, Earthward, Silence, etc), or like those one shot moves from spiders, Eruca (keep current HP up to certain threshold to counter it).

If those crazy hate spike move (combine with the rest of the party) is able to defeat the mob around the duration of Cover, then the party can get away without MP-sink. Because within the time window from Cover to mob's death, there is not much damage the mob can do within such a limited amount of time.

Keep on raping in the name of all that's good and shiny, Rena.

Am I playing Captain Obvious by pointing out how ironic this sentence is?

I don't get it :(

Because I'm PISSED that at 51PLD, I finally am NOT capped out on Parry.
This some ol BS. -_-
And at the rate I'm going, using PLD to cap out Parrying isn't really looking like it'll work.. Because I'm sure I'll level before I gain another skill raise. :(

Yeah I feel that NIN got me better results with capping parrying. At least by the time I hit 75 on my NIN parrying was at 203 from 180 (180 from when my RDM soloed). Now I'm a 66 PLD and my parrying is capped at 203 >.> I seriously think the only reason why getting parrying on PLD is easiar is b/c you get a shot at those Hundred Fist mobs in Dynamis to cap your parrying.

I don't get it :(

Rape: an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation

in the name of all that's good and shiny

ya

Does anyone know how a PLD/WAR's Spinning Slash is like with full DD equip?

And subbing THF..

Is /THF really necessary?

I'm just asking these questions cause I'm just curious as to what our roles in a PT is going to be at lvl 72~74 when a tank isn't exactly required anymore. A DD route seems most common and even so what sorta of gear would you wear? Hecta for WS seems logical as well as a Supp. for the sword skill, but what else is there specificly? Oh and over in KI they have these weird post like something about PLD/NIN with a wand in main and joy in sub and they were acting as support/main healer. That caught my eye.

I wouldn't go Great Sword on PLD even with the upcoming update. The gap between sword and great sword skill is too wide, and we lose our biggest defensive tool in the process as well (and even one JA.)

/THF is for big numbers, you'll definetely pull out bigger Spinning Slashes that way. Of course, your normal hits will suffer in comparison to /WAR.

From all I've read the optimal sub is /NIN and I'm inclined to agree. You get a 20% reduction in Delay, and Company/Joy means lots of 5-hit Vorpals using Company's DMG. If you pull hate or need to use Cover, you have shadows to protect you.

The only club I'd ever mainhand for supporting a party would be a Kraken Club. And I'd single wield that.

Oh, and sorry I didn't address this sooner Rena - to use Tazzy's parser just choose "Parse/Gather Logs to (File or Date.)" That basically parses and saves everything at the same time. Choose File if you want to name the file it'll be saved to or Date if you're lazy and don't mind your parse files being named only after the date they were made in. To parse a file you had saved you use Parse Gathered Log. I think "Select Reporting Fields" and "Recalculate" are pretty straightforward.

So Joy + Company is the DW setup then for a typical PLD/NIN?

Does PLD/NIN work at lvl 72? or 74?

Company + Joy is king for most people, yes. But if you have Justice Sword, then Justice/Joyeuse. And if you have Excalibur, well...that one might even be better off single-wielded.

It probably works at 72. However take that with a grain of salt, I'm only 68 and I don't know what's the "official" minimum level for burn-style merit parties.

From all I've read the optimal sub is /NIN and I'm inclined to agree. You get a 20% reduction in Delay, and Company/Joy means lots of 5-hit Vorpals using Company's DMG.

20%? So, that's 15% from Dual Wield II, plus Suppanomimi? (Is Divine Might so easy that I'd be expected to have one if I'm PLD/NIN come Lv.74?! o_O; )

DM isn't really hard. The hardest part is getting people for it.

I think burns officially start at 72 b/c you can PT with people as high as 75.

Thanks Armando

People get chain 20+ on Colibri in the 50s. I'd say that qualifies as "burning."

5/5 PLD AF now.

Did Divine Might 3 times last night, won twice, everyone got an earring, I choose Suppa mainly for sword skill. Dual Wield was a bonus, because I'm sure the benefit is marginal to me as a RDM with minimum haste gear (turban ; ; ). Then again, I plan on using a sword/shield combo.

Anyway. Mostly chose because I'll see more benefit from Suppa than Knight Earring.

Grats, man. Sounds like you have it made. I have neither Suppa nor Joy D:

/THF is for big numbers, you'll definetely pull out bigger Spinning Slashes that way. Of course, your normal hits will suffer in comparison to /WAR

That isn't the only reason why WishMaster posted "/THF"

Hint: Spinning Slash is about as accurate as Helen Keller trying to clean 300+ scanned pages of a popular B&W manga which showcases exquisite details for a fansub group that needs it by the end of the day.

I'm actually starting to wonder if that's true, or if it just has the same accuracy as a normal hit, and appears to be inaccurate in comparison to most other weapons which have more than one hit and would have to miss all of them to truly "miss."

But point taken.

Congrat with the Suppa ^^b

THAT WAS MEAAAAAAAN!!!!

But in any case, it's a new quote.

Edit:

Thank you for the congrats! It's only taken me 2 years of periodic failures, and last night we totally own Divine Might. The secret is actually in having good kiters.

I was kiting the Elvaan, and she's a dirty whore, but Bind never was resisted, and if it was, I either had shadows, gravity, or stoneskin to fall back on and hold her off. Point was, I had an abundance of tools in comparison to her weapons. I'm glad I never gave her TP, because I saw our PLD drop to a 2300 Spirits Within from her.

But anyway.

BLMs would nuke Taru, melee would pull the Mithra and RDMs kept pets slept while kiters did their thing.

On each successful run, by the time we wiped, we had the Galka, Mithra and Taru down. First sucessful run took us 15 minutes to do that, second successful run took us 9 minutes to do that.

With the rest of the alliance pounding on the Hume, I would kite the Elvaan in the circle so that they didn't get hit with her AOEs, but the Hume went down FAST.

Faster then a College Freshman having sex after the 4th round of beer pong fast.

I was then free to Nuke the Elvaan and pay her back for Shield Bashing me like it was going out of style.

I was SOOO tempted to get the Knights Earring, but at the moment, I'll get more usage out of the Suppa, and Sword Skill helps out my RDM and PLD, so it's all good.

Edit2:

While we're on the topic of Midgame (yay! I brought the post back from the dead >. <), I had some gear questions.

Really wish I had a current screenshot, so just replace the helmet in the picture with the AF Coronet.

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6029/img20070824011503ru7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070824011503ru7.jpg)

I was thinking of upgrading to that lvl 55 Kite Shield, but I'm not sure if I should get it, because it's only 1 DEF more and +3 MND and I lose the STR..

And swords. I'm not getting the Gluttony, not in my budget. Any recommendations?

The only gear upgrades I see are the legs at 58 which I have, Haubergeon full time, but macroed out into AF Body for Flash and Provoke, or at the very least, Hauby for WSs..

But I'm conflicted on Swords. Should I try the Wise Wizard Anelace?

Oh and I replaced that Drone earring with that Cure Potency earring for PLDs.

Some gear I'm interested in.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/a/a0/HarmoniasTorque.jpg
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/d/d6/Herculesring.png

And I was definitely going for the Rajas but.. IDK. Thinking in terms of end game, I'd never use it as a RDM, and Melee PLD is only one dimension of the game (exp/merit) and if I was meleeing, there'd be alternatives. I don't forsee myself ever really using the Rajas.

Actually, I'm not going to discuss that comment. I'll leave it here for reference, but I'll direct that to my endgame thread.

Anyway. For midgame, the Bibiki Seashell is without peer, I believe.

Ok, that is all. I'm looking at KI posts right now, but there is a lot of crap to wade through.

I've never had any doubts about PLD tanking. Most people thought I was stupid. They thought I was a bit slow in not associating more exp with NINs and less exp with PLDs.

I don't know. I don't care about 20K/hr exp with ???/NINs stroking their e-peens at each other. I rather an "average" outing with a fun, competant PLD and group of players. Yes, that includes having a SMN who actually do not have to MH the group or even a BLM. I rather that than 5 melees senselessly beating something that look like it fell off a side of a mansion (the horror movie ones)

Oh ... I think I meant a gargoyle.

LMAO. I love PLD also. It's a lot more consistent than NIN.

I know there were many situations me and my parties got into where had I been a NIN, it would have been UGLY.

I know that at least on PLD I can voke a link (and flash the other add) then spam JAs and Cures on myself till they get slept and/or the current mob is dead, and just trust my WHM to cure bomb me all the while. If things get bad, I pop an Invincible and it's like Flies to candy the way these mobs run at me.

I LOVE PLD. Idk if I made that clear, just wanted to re-emphasize.

To WishMaster3K:

In my last party in Bibiki Bay, my PLD parsed 23% total evasion with SH full time. Compare to the parses of Haubergeon PLD (Zempten's and Armando's) in this thread, which is 20% evasion, I don't think gear swapping during Flash would make much impact on "overall" evasion. My parry is about 5%, which is similar to the parses of Haubergeon PLD. IMHO, it is safe to assume than a typical PLD can avoid 1 out of every 4 hits (in average) with Flash/evade/parry in a typical exp. party.

Wish

If your going to be going DD then I'd suggest the Tiphia Sting (Accuracy +2,Attack+2) for your WSing or if your DDing full time. The HP- might hurt you a bit but seriously when you come to a point where 25 life is all you got and the mob is hitting you your not really seeing a high chance of surviving unless your PT is smart (Stun/Flash/Cures) which is rare. I'd only see you dropping down to something really low on the Magma Crawlers. I used it on my PLD cause it was pretty nice.

I'm tired of this PLD and NIN arguments. Seriously. Player > job. That's all I'm going to say. If I ever get on a situation where we have an add I can easily elemental wheel on the add with my Arhat +1 Enmity stuff along with others, which will easily get me hate especially since it's comming from a link and has no other hate on it. As far as the whole Sentinel/Invincibale argument, if your PT is going to have adds like that . . . it's not even safe to begin with.

Defeintly get the Hercules Ring. It's cheap and it's a step above Mermaid Ring. As far as the neck item. I never used it and I kept hate fine while eatting Sole Sushi. The only time your going to get hate ripped from you is when your PTing in the 70s where meeles just ripped through hate like you dont' even exisit. Even in a situation like that I doubt 3 Enmity is going to help you much at all. In my 74/75 PT (I was 74), SAMs and WARs and DRKs were just ripping it off me - there was zero point in me wearing any enmity (hell I had them rip hate off me after a Sentient and cures and flash). Not to mention fights only last under a min.

As far as the Rajas Ring question ask yourself how many other jobs your going to lvl and keep in mind that Rajas can be used for 11 of the jobs (MNK,THF,WAR,BST,DRK,NIN,RNG,SAM,BLU,COR,PUP) in a exp Situation as opposed to the tank one for 2 of the jobs (PLD and NIN) and then the mage one for 5 of the jobs(BLM,RDM,WHM,SMN,BLU,). If you can't make up your mind rest assured that you can always redo the fight to choose again.

Tiphia Sting is nice but is low-priority in terms of purchases. Not enough bang for your buck.

By the way guys, the time to buy Woodsman Rings is now lol

I'm more interested in the aspect of capping my Staff and using Full Swing with a Primate Staff +1 with some STR instead of Spinning Slash atm ^ ^ Please don't laugh =P

You'll have to forgive me, Zempten-san, I am extremely biased.

After tonight's PT

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7725/img20070829233340ln8.th.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070829233340ln8.jpg)

; ; I'm so proud of myself!! Anyway, 10k/hr, and I'm about 6k and change to 58.

Oh, what's everyone's opinion on the BQ Ring? Just realized I can equip it. It seems like it's largely useless though, but it's nice to have as Trophy Gear when I'm standing around. And the Gluttony Sword? I was thinking of using it for a few levels then selling it when I can equip the Bastard's Sword.

Grats man. That's what makes it all worth it :D

BQ Ring has its uses, but not in EXP. Gluttony Sword is just "meh" in my eyes. Been over it before - 7 VIT doesn't do as much as the higher DMG/sec and +12 Attack of T.M. Espadon +2 etc. etc. Plus it costs more.

T.M.+2 ftw. Armando converted me. It's even better than WW Anelace.

Well I stayed up late (3am) with a JP Pt. I'm exhausted at work, but I suppose it was worth it. I'm pretty excited. Tanked Puks last night. They were conning IT High Def so I ate Bream Sushi. Was finally able to do Spirits Within, so I used the BQRing for that and was breaking out some decent numbers (I have 1020~ HP when I have BQ Ring and my back piece is active w/o Tav Tacos). I think the range was 450~ish.

Anyway. This is the gear of the DRG in the first PT of the night.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/382/img20070829235018sh5.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070829235018sh5.jpg)
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7619/img20070829234842yr5.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img20070829234842yr5.jpg)




After the second party, we are left with:
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/t1081173_img20070830032710.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1081173_img20070830032710.jpg)

I'm pretty excited. Especially with the new updates, the two SAMs I exp with are going to be raping the mobs 6 ways from Sabbath, and my sword skill is at 195 so when I ding 59 I'll have Vorpal AND my Haubergeon!!!!

/panic


I'm so excited for tonight.

Edit:

Ok!!! Back in action!

Well, the PT with the DRG and RNG performed extremely better than the pt with the MNK and THF. I noticed that when you're with a pt for a while and you guys understand the limits of yourselves and the party, it's generally much easier to find a swing that works. In this way, after I dinged 58 and started relying more on Flash, Provoke and spot curing myself with Cure 2 (faster Cure time and I passed the cap a whiiile ago), I let the other mages take care of my HP.

This helped because the BRD was pulling like it was going out of style, and Puks actually hit me for a decent amount. But thankfully, Puks being harder than Colibris was balanced by the fact that I could eat food and save TP for Spirits Within, so it was all good.

It was a higher end PT, so when my static hits 59, I'm assuming we won't be able to fight Colibris anymore, and I don't think anyone is in the mood to fight Spiders.

The Sipahi set is good macroing fun. And it's real cheap. Going to try it with Vorpal, I got the Head and the Legs. Not sure about the hands or the feet though.

That's something I've been meaning to look into and ask some PLDs about. The Sipahi set in general seems pretty good for a PLD in those levels. You prolly won't ever see an increase in shielding rate from all the +AGI, but maybe it'll make you parry an extra hit every hour or... something. Regardless, the +STR is always welcome.

For some reason I was definitely getting hit harder while wearing it. Granted, I was on those Crawlers in the Aydeewa underground place, but with AF it ranged from 80-120, whereas in Sipah it was 120-140 sometimes.

Vorpal Blade was ok. 240 and