Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

[Vyuru]

This is mostly dealing with the buff bloodpacts, and a few specific questions and general questions I have on them.

Whispering Wind vs Spring Water:

Almost every summoner I know uses Whispering Wind instead of Spring Water, why is this? Looking at the ffxiclopdia info on them, Spring Water is stronger, and has an AoE Erase effect, and costs less mp to cast:

Whispering Wind: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Whispering_Wind

Spring Water: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water

And this is lvl 50+ I'm talking about, so they have access to both Leviathan and Garuda and both of these bloodpacts.


Next big question, why do hardly any summoners ever use Garuda's Hastega in exp parties? It's a 15% haste effect, which is the same as the spell Haste correct? It won't last as long as normal Haste, at least not until you get a bit more summoning skill and higher level, BUT it's cheaper to cast if you want to haste 3+ party members. It just seems odd this isn't used more. I always see Aerial Armor being used, and I would think that an AoE Haste effect would be much better than an AoE Blink effect.

And at high levels, (70+), is Crimson Howl worthwhile? Just eyeballing it, it looks like it would last about 2:30 at lvl 75, which would be a hefty boost IMO.

[IfritnoItazura]

Next big question, why do hardly any summoners ever use Garuda's Hastega in exp parties? It's a 15% haste effect, which is the same as the spell Haste correct? It won't last as long as normal Haste, at least not until you get a bit more summoning skill and higher level, BUT it's cheaper to cast if you want to haste 3+ party members. It just seems odd this isn't used more. I always see Aerial Armor being used, and I would think that an AoE Haste effect would be much better than an AoE Blink effect.

Hastega is MP inefficient (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/white-mage/66393-level-40-wall-2.html?highlight=Hastega#post695192); the break even point is not three people--it is actually between FIVE to SIX people.

If the party isn't desperate for offensive buffs, it's usually a better idea to use the MP for other things. Unless you're just rolling in MP with two or three Refershers in your party for some odd reason.

[Malacite]

On that subject, would it kill SE to increase the power of some of these buffs? The last update for summoning skill was a joke IMO.

How about just a direct increase to avatar and BP performance? Make Hastega a 20-25% buff so it's at least on par with a BRD's Double March. For the MP it costs and the short duration it has it should at least be decent.

The same goes for the other lolbuffs.

[IfritnoItazura]

Oh, I don't know. Hastega is supposed to bad MP efficiency wise, I think, since it's convenient time wise. (That said, a slight boost to duration can't hurt ... )

Aerial Armor is decent for traditional style parties, keeping DD's and healers who occasionally step past the enmity threshold from getting beat up too badly. Earthen Ward is more of the same, freeing people from having to use 'unnatural combos' like MNK/NIN. Shining Ruby is also not that shabby for PLD tanks.

But, SMN isn't just about its buffs; the Tier II and IV elemental nukes from Avatars are relatively cheap (dirt cheap if not counting summoning/perpetuation cost), and came earlier than BLM's versions, I believe. The Lv.70 Blood Pacts are also quite good.

I do agree SMN can use some tweaking, though. Seems like there are a lot of good ideas in the design, but as implemented came off as meh-ish in mid to high level exp'ing. It'd be nice to have some improvements to SMN without really increasing their effectiveness in special fights and "end game" situations.

[Gobo]

Hastega actually can hit the 3 min cap quite easily compared to the other <3 min duration abilities. With only needing 30 more skill over cap, merits, torque and Evokers's ring will put you over the top for hitting the duration cap on Hastega. So with the 3 min cap through skill, Hastega= hasting 3 players (and more efficient if you hit more). Only real draw back is you'll lose about 15-40 MP from perpetuation.

As for your first question, Spring Water>Whispering wind. For exactly the reasons you stated as well. (Cures more HP, cures status effects, costs less). I'm going to go with SMN being lazy and already having Garuda out.

Crimson Howl, its got a higher boost than Warcry and I honestly cannot remember if it stacks with Warcry, but I'm going to say no. As to why people use it, I dunno, it never really appealed to me when I first got it, so I really haven't bothered to use it post skill up date. 1 skill=1 sec of duration, so if you had optimal SMN skill gear (Merits, Torque, Evok. Ring, Smn earring, Smn Brcr+1, Marduk's Tiara, Marduk's Shalwar, Marduk's Crakcows, Bahamut's Staff) the longest duration you can get is 105 sec. Since the Tiara is the only thing that cannot be obtain atm (no reported drops on the Enlil's Tiara to make it, Zhaylom Remnants lvl 35 drops are still shrouded in mystery), its not that far fetched. AF1 horn will do pretty much the same, with only 2 less seconds duration. I'll mess around with it, but not today. Today is write a lab report day.

And personally, I really enjoy the Smn skill update. Being able to have merits in Avatar Attack and Magic attack, while keeping acc high with skill gear, is such a nice thing.

EDIT: Totally forgot to include this. Don't really bother with Hastega until you've either capped your skill and hit the +30 skill mark, which is pretty impossible until you are 75. Most skill you can get mid lvls is +15, so its not really worth it to use.

[Malacite]

The problem with the Tier 2 and 4 nukes from avatars is that BLM still out damages them easily with some of their tier 1 and 3 nukes respectively.

That IMO, is BS. BLM doesn't have the 1 minute time restriction, nor are they gods of the elements. So would it kill SE to strengthen bloodpacts directly, or have summoning magic skill boost them? (And not by going over the cap like that stupid update; I mean scaling power based on level that can occur naturally and not just with gear and merits)

[Vyuru]

Totally forgot to include this. Don't really bother with Hastega until you've either capped your skill and hit the +30 skill mark, which is pretty impossible until you are 75. Most skill you can get mid lvls is +15, so its not really worth it to use.


And perhaps I'm missing something here.

Reading the descriptions on FFxiclopedia, it sounds like the buff avatar pacts work like this:

You get Hastega at summoning skill level of say, 144.
Base duration is 1:30, +3 seconds for each summoning skill point you have over the level that you learn the ability at.

So say you level up, and your summoning skill goes up to 145, Hastega now lasts for 1:33, when it goes up to 146 skill the timer increases to 1:36.

Or is it the case that regardless of level, when your summoning skill is capped Hastega will last 1:30, and any additional +skill over the current cap is what adds to the buff's duration? So like, Austere/Penance, merits, etc?

[Malacite]

You don't get blood pacts at skill levels, your avatars learn them as you hit specific levels of SMN.

In order to get any kind of bonus on blood pacts, your skill has to be a certain level (I really don't know how much) above your current skill cap to see any kind of benefit. That means if you had more than your skill cap, but then level up and have to skill up again, you lose those benefits until your skill catches up again.

[Gobo]

Got to test out Crimson Howl vs Warcry.

Crimson Howl overrides Warcry, which I assume is because Crimson Howl is a stronger buff. So why don't people use it. Got me, though I guess it has to do with Warcry giving Enmity, which can be very useful. Plus, you would have to reapply it every time your Ward timer was up, to keep the effect going, forgoing other Ward BPs that might be better to use. Each to his own I suppose.

Also Mal, don't forget to take into consideration that all BPs give the target 0 TP, while BLM nukes give 10.

[Rain_Blade]

This is mostly dealing with the buff bloodpacts, and a few specific questions and general questions I have on them.

Whispering Wind vs Spring Water:

Almost every summoner I know uses Whispering Wind instead of Spring Water, why is this? Looking at the ffxiclopdia info on them, Spring Water is stronger, and has an AoE Erase effect, and costs less mp to cast:

Whispering Wind: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Whispering_Wind

Spring Water: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water

And this is lvl 50+ I'm talking about, so they have access to both Leviathan and Garuda and both of these bloodpacts.


Next big question, why do hardly any summoners ever use Garuda's Hastega in exp parties? It's a 15% haste effect, which is the same as the spell Haste correct? It won't last as long as normal Haste, at least not until you get a bit more summoning skill and higher level, BUT it's cheaper to cast if you want to haste 3+ party members. It just seems odd this isn't used more. I always see Aerial Armor being used, and I would think that an AoE Haste effect would be much better than an AoE Blink effect.

And at high levels, (70+), is Crimson Howl worthwhile? Just eyeballing it, it looks like it would last about 2:30 at lvl 75, which would be a hefty boost IMO.

Hmm. I've never seen anyone prefer Whispering Wind over Spring Water. For Hastega, Haste lasts longer. Basically, it's like you could be using something else. Not everyone in the party will be asking for Haste so Hastega isn't necessary. For Aerial Armor, that's pretty much just for protecting the party if they seem to get hit a lot. Mostly Ecliptic Howl and Growl are used. I also use Earthen Ward if there's a lot of /nins in the party.
For Crimson Howl, I think it's still like around 30 seconds.

[IfritnoItazura]

Crimson Howl overrides Warcry, which I assume is because Crimson Howl is a stronger buff. So why don't people use it. Got me, though I guess it has to do with Warcry giving Enmity, which can be very useful.

According to FFXIclopedia, Crimson Howl is Attack+15%, lasts for 30 seconds (without going over Summoning skill cap), for 84 MP. Warcry is Attack+5.25%, lasts for 30 seconds, for 0 MP.

MP usage aside, Crimson Howl is definitely a stronger buff than Warcry... About the same as Last Resort, but not nearly as nice as Berserk's Attack+25%.

[Gobo]

According to FFXIclopedia, Crimson Howl is Attack+15%, lasts for 30 seconds (without going over Summoning skill cap), for 84 MP. Warcry is Attack+5.25%, lasts for 30 seconds, for 0 MP.
MP usage aside, Crimson Howl is definitely a stronger buff than Warcry... About the same as Last Resort, but not nearly as nice as Berserk's Attack+25%.

Main reason I was testing to see which, if any, overrid (thats not a word but w/e) the other was because the game classifies both effects as Warcry. I'm going out on a limb here and will say there are 2 types of warcry, player warcry (the ones WAR get) and mob warcry, since according to THFs, mob warcry is a much larger boost than player warcry.

[Armando]

I'm going out on a limb here and will say there are 2 types of warcry, player warcry (the ones WAR get) and mob warcry, since according to THFs, mob warcry is a much larger boost than player warcry.Minor nitpick here, but it's impractical to think of it as "two types of Warcry." It isn't really that there's different types of buffs/effects; it's just that any given effect can have variable potency and variable (overwriting) priority, and these two factors are totally independent to boot. (For example, Armor Break's Defense Down is stronger than Acid Bolt's, but they have the same priority.) Fenrir's Warcry isn't necessarily the same as the beastmen's just because it's not the kind players use.

[Malacite]

Fenrir's Warcry isn't necessarily the same as the beastmen's just because it's not the kind players use.



Ifrit actually.

[Armando]

Ah, right. Thanks XD

[Malacite]

np ^^

Also, in my experience Crimson Howl only lasted for 20 seconds, not 30 but I could be wrong. Either way it's a waste of MP unless you're about to skillchain I find.

[Gobo]

Still there are 2 different types of Warcry. One that produces a decent amount of enmity and one that doesn't.

[Armando]

That's a variable of the move itself, it's not that there's two kinds of Warcry. S-E can make a move's enmity whatever they want. They could make twelve different JAs that each give you Warcry with the exact same Attack buff, yet have different enmity ratings. Ifrit's doesn't necessarily have to be like the WAR JA or like beastmen version, because there aren't really specific versions, just a bunch of variables.

[Karinya]

It's interesting that THFs reported monster Warcry is stronger than player (I assume through Aura Steal, why else would it be THFs reporting it). It certainly supports the idea that monster Warcry is worth dispelling.

Anyway: some BP's I would say are "not useful" are:
Megalith Throw (almost always misses or hits for very low damage)
Rolling Thunder (additional effect does very low damage no matter how high your level and summoning magic skill are)
Frost Armor (ditto)
Lightning Armor (ditto)
Glittering Ruby (too random; may affect stats you don't care about; even if you're lucky the effect is rather small)
Ultimate Terror (ditto)
Whispering Wind (very MP inefficient; Curagas are almost always better if you're /WHM, until well after you have Spring Water)

several of which are clearly bugged, although they've been unfixed for years. For Glittering Ruby and Ultimate Terror it's just impossible to predict whether they will affect a stat you care about, and even when they do, the effect isn't that big.

Increasing buff duration for merited summoners with +skill gear is nice, I guess, but summoners still leveling up needed the boost just as much if not more, and they didn't get it. Too much of the last few years' improvement of the job was aimed exclusively at the endgame SMN and not enough for the leveling SMN, I think.

[Gobo]

That's a variable of the move itself, it's not that there's two kinds of Warcry. S-E can make a move's enmity whatever they want. They could make twelve different JAs that each give you Warcry with the exact same Attack buff, yet have different enmity ratings. Ifrit's doesn't necessarily have to be like the WAR JA or like beastmen version, because there aren't really specific versions, just a bunch of variables.

Ok, I see you point. I'm more curious now as to why they decided to give Ifrit a more powerful warcry. Its more "usable" than before, but when it was released, and the BPs we're split, it was really impractical.

[Feenicks]

I really don't know why people rip on Megalith Throw, it nearly always lands for me for full damage ... it's quite nice as well, about 270 damage at Lv40.

[Karinya]

Really? When was it fixed? When I was leveling SMN I tried it when I got it, and got miss, miss, miss, 9 damage; whispered a SMN friend who told me that it had been bugged for years.

[WishMaster3K]

SMN Bloodpacts have their places..

Frost Armor is "ok" at best. In the pt I was in last night, we weren't starving for MP (PLD SAM SAM COR SMN SMM), and Frost Armor was a decent paralyzing factor. Rolling thunder didn't add enough damage to really matter though, but I saw some interesting things from the SMNs yesterday :)

[Eiyoko]

I always like using Frost Armor for defense tanks. As for Crimson Howl, I never liked it - it was a waste of MP in my eyes and I hardly ever used it, personally @.@ I always prefer Spring Water over Whispering Wind, but the latter comes at a lower level, so people must automatically think that that makes it a lower MP cost.

Some people also must think Garuda looks better using an aoe healing move...yes, there are people like that...oh well.

As for Rolling Thunder, I like to put it on a monk who uses his 2-hour just for laughs.

Megalith throw hates me. Then again, Titan himself hates me. His only blood pact that ever cooperates with me is Earthen Ward ; ; Everything else never wants to hit.

I'd like to point out that Carbuncle's Healing Ruby is VERY MP-efficient, especially at high levels.

[Feenicks]

Really? When was it fixed? When I was leveling SMN I tried it when I got it, and got miss, miss, miss, 9 damage; whispered a SMN friend who told me that it had been bugged for years.
Don't know when it was fixed but it works very nicely for me, it's more or less my main damage bloodpact (currently Lv48) outside of Tail Slap. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Armando]

By the way, Lmnop told me that he heard Rolling Thunder's Enthunder damage is based off of the receiver's Enhancing Magic (i.e. a PLD with capped enhancing magic would actually do damage with it.) Can anyone shed some light on that?

[Malacite]

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Armando]

It would explain why it's usually so weak though.

[Rain_Blade]

I agree with Malacite. Rolling Thunder pretty much is only effective against monsters weak to thunder which is the only time I use it. I wonder if Suiton + Rolling Thunder will be effective for monsters that aren't weak to thunder.

[Armando]

Suiton wouldn't make it hit harder, just get resisted less.

[Gwynn]

Whispering Wind vs. Spring Water - O.o; People like WW over SW? Thats just nutty. Only time that I have replaced SW is with Healing Ruby II, mainly because I can keep out Carby while I'm main healing for nothing in case I need an emergency hate-free AoE Cure.

BPs I have found useful:

Healing Ruby- Most people might overlook this, but having Healing Ruby I can be a really nice boost when main healing. When main healing I usually keep Carby out for Healing Ruby (until Healing Ruby II), and for a spare Meteorite when I have excess MP.

Spring Water- Doesn't really need explaining does it?

Crimson Howl- Some people might look over this, but I have actually used it in a party before when I was DDing. I'd use Crimson Howl when the mob was at about 50% HP, then the melees would do their Skillchain and I'd pull out a 200-350 damage Double Punch. Ifrit can actually be fairly useful for DDing post- Crimson Howl in the right party set up (namely one where you don't have to do much healing).

Hastega- Actually just had a party last night in Mt. Zhayolm where I found myself using Hastega. Party setup was NIN, WAR, DRK, RNG, BRD, SMN (me). We were fighting Magmatic Erucas, party level range was 64-66. In this situation, normally I would be using Ecliptic Howl with an Earthen Ward tossed in every now and then, but the problem was that the Moon phase was about 15%, so Fenrir isn't very useful. Earthen Ward was decent, but the NIN was tanking so well it wasn't being used to its fullest potential. Wracking my brain for other buffs I could do, I finally decided to try out Hastega. I was able to keep up Hastega reliably while curing at the same time, and even had enough MP to toss in an Aero IV every now and then for extra damage. Worked out pretty well, have to admit.

Ultimate Terror- For me, this BP shined around level 40 or so when I wasn't needed as a healer. I could reliably drain about 4+ stats from the mob. Not exceptional, but options are somewhat limited at that level. Not saying I'd use it now, but at that point in time it had its uses. I have heard that Ultimate Terror can be useful in Dynamis, but couldn't expound upon that personally.

Shining Ruby- Towards the lower levels, and mid levels when I was keeping Carby out when main healing, Shining Ruby was decent. Doesn't really cost that much MP, AoE Def and MDef buff. Fairly useful.

Aerial Armor- Incredibly useful in PLD parties, particularly in the 20's and 30's. Doesn't really need explaining, but loses a lot of its effectiveness at higher levels when over 1/2 your melees are NIN or /NIN.

Sleepga- I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet. I've been saved by Sleepga many times, mainly due to lazy BLMs in mission fights and on NMs like the Dobsonflies and such. Very useful to pop a Sleepga before using Diamond Dust.

Crescent Fang- The Paralyze proc rate on this attack is actually fairly high. Coupled with it being Fenrir's highest damage attack until Eclipse Bite, I used it a lot from 20-65. Can reliably hit for 100-200+ damage in the 50's and early 60's.

Ecliptic Growl/Howl- Towards Full Moon, they rock for exp. Towards New Moon, lol. But then again, everyone knows that :P

Other BPs:
Frost Armor- I've never really felt the urge to use this, really. There have always been better options open. I suppose it might be somewhat useful with a PLD tank, but thats about it.

Megalith Throw- I've experienced about a 50% Acc rate (roughly) with this BP. Only time I really used it was when I was popping Titan out for Earthen Ward and wanted to toss in some extra damage as well. Haven't used it since I've gotten Stone IV though.

Noctoshield- Haven't ever really seen much use in this. Even with a PLD tank, Fenrir's BPs and Earthen Ward are usually my buffs of choice. Just costs too much MP to be valid. Might be useful in certain situations at higher levels, but I have yet to see them.

Dream Shroud- Don't party with too many BLMs nowadays, so right now its just a minor buff to Nether Blast. I have seen this work well in Dynamis, however.

Nightmare- Haven't really used this much. For AoE Sleep I usually use Sleepga as I've personally found it tends to have a better stick rate. But like I said, I haven't used it a lot, so I can't say for sure.

Rolling Thunder/Lightning Armor- lol >_>;