Haste (Can I have it?) (Can you hear me?)

[Keon]

Recently I was in a pt in the level range 42-43 and camping at altepa. After a few mobs I noticed I was using Ichi more then usual and realised the whm wasn't using haste. I try addressing this by sending a /t to ask for haste. The whm answered that is cost too much mp... Cost to much MP???Had to sit back and laugh to myself.
I wear fuma's full time and marco in Quick Belt for shadow casting. That alone cuts my timer to 41 sec and with haste I believe the recast is down to 37 or 36 sec. Then I made the request public and the rest of the pt agreed. I had a few vets who wondered the same thing were very open about it.
This has happened more then once during the last few exp pt. Is this something to be expected with tanking as nin or am I just having a bad string of retarded whm. Your thoughts.

[Tsrwedge]

I would say poor WHMs.

In all fairness, Haste is a fairly expensive spell at that level (40MP, about 10% of total MP), and WHMs have just gotten it, so they're kind of trying to figure out how to best utilize it. That said, keeping it up on one or two people should not be a problem at all.

[Necropolis]

When I dinged 40 whm the haste cycle was something new that needed to be perfected. I found if I tried to haste all the melees that it would be MP draining, especially if I'm keeping a regen cycle up as well.

Many whm, or mages in generally, don't necessarily understand the value of spells like haste. And he probaly didn't think that hasting you would actually save him MP in cures.

After I got my haste cycle down I could actually rest a tick or two between cast and wasn't such a drain on the MP. I'd say your problem was a just a newer person in that level range with something new. Hopefully he'd get the hang of it after two long. But he should of certainly been told that haste is a requirement for nin tanks, and only helps the party be more effective if you haste all the melees (with the occasional except of mnks that will ripe hate of any tank).

[Nuriko]

One other thing, what other jobs did you have in the PT? I can certainly see the WHM doing all they can to cut back on MP usage if there's no refresh and nobody to take the healing burden to let them rest in a fight ... not hasting a NIN tank can be counterproductive, but sometimes something has to give, especially if the puller seems to think mages shouldn't need rest.

[Lmnop]

When dealing with mages who've just acquired haste, it's nice to keep it brief, friendly, and informative.

Tell them that it speeds up recasts and thus, saves mp by increasing damage mitigation (true with PLDs as much as NINs).

General rule of thumb: Haste the tank and screw the rest of the party. They pull enough hate anyway.

[Omni]

I would say poor WHMs.
In all fairness, Haste is a fairly expensive spell at that level (40MP, about 10% of total MP), and WHMs have just gotten it, so they're kind of trying to figure out how to best utilize it. That said, keeping it up on one or two people should not be a problem at all.

It is quite a lot of MP at the time but if anyone needs haste, its the nin.

with haste alone, it will bring his timer on utsusemi: ni from 45s to 37s and ichi from 30s to about 23s? (i forget). Think of all the more you'll be curing him when he keeps getting interrupted because both timers are down.

Especially with a nin tank, if you're a half decent nin, I dont think whm should be worrying too much about running out of MP.

[Necropolis]

Haste also prevents you from being slow'ed (in most cases, and I believe all cases in that level. Maybe spiders have a stronger slow?)

Which is also another plus. I keep all the DDs hasted in Dynamis, those damn demons and aoe slow is a pain. Easier to just haste everyone.

[Lmnop]

Spider slow is tier 2 -- overwrites Haste.

[Omni]

spider's web aoe slow is a pain. you will need to reapply like lmnop pointed out.
however, crawler's sticky thread does not overwrite and if you have haste up, you will get a no effect when they try to splooge over you.

[Taskmage]

It's worse than just reapplying vs spider slow. First you have to erase their slow effect away, then recast haste. Otherwise the Slow II effect will still override your Haste the same way Dia III keeps Bio II from taking effect.

Haste is very expensive. At 44 with no refresher in the party I have a very hard time maintaining hastes in addition to healing. It's worth it to speed up blink and flash timers, but a newbie whm might not notice the difference.

[Celeal]

It could be a less informed WHM. (Since he said Haste cost too much MP)

From my experience, there are chances for a tank parties with poor supports, like begging for erase, haste, silena... lack regen or debuff... nothing except cures only. The worst case is even with cures only, the healer still fails at his job. For NIN tank it is safer to assume Haste, Stun, Slow, Paralyze, Blind.... from party supports as bonus, instead of basic requirement.

[IfritnoItazura]

Haste was difficult to keep up due to MP and time usage when I first obtained it. Try not to be too demanding on mages at those levels (WHM40, RDM48)--WHM's then are more used to be healers than buffers, and the RDM's already have the Refresh cycle to juggle. Explain to them that the NIN and the party would benefit greatly if NIN has Haste on, but don't bite their heads off if Haste drops for 5 seconds.

* * *

NIN's should pack evasion gear to fall back on at those levels anyway. After all, it is possible one could end up in a party with no one able/want to haste the NIN. (e.g. NIN, THF, DD, COR, SMN, and BRD--looks like a good party, but you'd probably want BRD to use Minuet and Madrigal/Prelude over March.)

* * *

Nothing annoyed my RDM more than incessant demands for Haste from someone not tanking. If you're not getting Haste and you're not the tank, it means I need the MP or time for other things.

Tanks get top priority on Haste. DD's performing skillchains second. If you're just spaming WS, you're dead last on my list. Also, RDM needs an MP buffer to toss out emergency Cures and to Refresh himself, unless he plans to use Convert really soon. None of my last 100 MP will go to your Haste, without a WHM in the party I can trust. (And, no, it's not my fault you/leader didn't invite a WHM because you/leader thought RDM should be main healing on top of enfeebing. And Refreshing. And Hasting.)

[Celeal]

Unless I am mistaken, March (song) does not affect spell recast timer.

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. FFXIclopedia says it does (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/March). I've never tested it, so I don't know for sure.

[Necropolis]

March is a type of Enhancing Song used by Bards. It gives an effect similar to Haste to party members within range, reducing their attack delay and magic recast timers. (Refer to the Haste status effect page for more information.)
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/March

It does indeed, though I was unaware of it originally. It really helps with raising all the dead in dynamis wanting an R3 -.-;

[IfritnoItazura]

To my knowledge, HH Dynamis has a long standing policy of "If pressed for time, you eat R1". Sic Kirakun on them if they whine about the R1. =b

[Necropolis]

To my knowledge, HH Dynamis has a long standing policy of "If pressed for time, you eat R1". Sic Kirakun on them if they whine about the R1. =b

Haha, yea that is the general rule for both of my shells RMT (really mean tarus) and HH. Last night we wiped to Dynamis Lord at 1%. 1 freakin' percent!

But ya, 3 whms, 40 read bodies, nearly 2 minute recast while dead...you do the math >.>;

Haste and double march helps lower that significantly as well as 15% haste from gear.

[Taskmage]

I don't think I've ever tested myself, but I've been told repeatedly that neither Haste spell nor March affect recast timers while you're under the effect of weakness. Only the haste on your gear works then.

[Necropolis]

I don't think I've ever tested myself, but I've been told repeatedly that neither Haste spell nor March affect recast timers while you're under the effect of weakness. Only the haste on your gear works then.

I can say with 100% accuracy that it does in fact effect recast timers. I did run the test before, but don't have the numbers with me anymore. I will dig up that spreedsheet when I get home if I remember too.

[WishMaster3K]

Necro, he meant under Weakness.

Which, it doesn't. I've tried to Haste myself when I was weakened and refresh still was at a nice Looooong recast of about 40+ seconds.

On Topic:
I love hasting the Tanks, and I'm sure the tanks love me hasting them. Being level 45 again brought back OLD memories. PT dynamics are so precarious, that one wrong move spills disaster. There isn't a lot of room for error in PTs before level 73..

NO ONE (mages, melee or support) can appreciate that unless they've seen the worst and the best and were subject to the exp grind again.

I'm dreading the 60s, btw. I might need a static to keep myself interested.

[Necropolis]

Necro, he meant under Weakness.

Which, it doesn't. I've tried to Haste myself when I was weakened and refresh still was at a nice Looooong recast of about 40+ seconds.


That is what I meant as well. Perhaps the ratio it reduces is altered while weakened so you wouldn't notice lower recast spells, but I know that for Raise III it does make a difference, and fairly certain that it does effect Utsusemi.

I'll reconfirm when I get home tonight.

[Celeal]

March has an effect O.o? Wow, I never notice that one~

Let say Spider AoE Slow-aga on top of March, do they overlap? (which unlike AoE Slow overwirtes Haste?)

[Necropolis]

March has an effect O.o? Wow, I never notice that one~

Let say Spider AoE Slow-aga on top of March, do they overlap? (which unlike AoE Slow overwirtes Haste?)

Yes, just as Haste and March stack, so does Slow and March. I suppose the over all outcome would just be %March - %Slow = Your new % of haste/slow.

To my knowledge the only thing that removes Bard Songs is Erase (elegy and such) and Dispel. So you could also have elegy/haste on you as well.

[Aeni]

From many veteran WHMs and RDMs on my server: Haste tank, screw everyone else (Someone already posted this above)

And it's true. 40 x 6 = 240 MP out the door and you haven't done anything else yet. Even if you were to reduce this to just melee players, the haster must haste him/herself to even make the cycle worthwhile (To cut down the wait between each haste) and most parties are TP burn which means that 4 of your party members are melee. That is still 40 x 5 = 200 MP.

However, if a WHM is paired with a RDM, then they can split haste assignment, thereby making it extremely rewarding and increases the effectiveness of the party across the board. If paired with a BRD, then just haste the tank, since the BRD has the ability to haste them all in a single song.

I remember when I first got Haste on my RDM, I abused it and went to town with in that party after I dinged. After that I realized how much of an mp hog it was and only focused on the tank. In traditional parties, I can haste 3 and refresh 3 in each cycle w/o issues. It's when I have to main heal some TP burn party that it gets annoying. :/

[fallenintoshadows]

If you were the tank you should of been hasted if it were available, no questions asked. My main mage job is rdm, I always cast Haste on the tank, regardless of how short of mp I get, if I'm not using much mp because I'm not main heal or not refreshing many members I will generally haste the other DD.

However, in the case where the mage is really cutting it fine with their mp every fight and someone in the party other than tank wants haste I think it's understandable if they do not get it.

[Keon]

Wow, very nice repsonses. First, pt set was: NIN, MNK, SAM, SMN, BLM, WHM. The only healing outside of me was to the MNK due to raging fists, but once he slowed down we were good to go.
I am a vet rdm and fully understand the haste/refresh cycles and tried to address the issue through /t and you all read the response I recieved.
Alwasys haste the tank for they are the one that will die for you to escape...
I can't wait to the 60's... <sigh>

[IfritnoItazura]

I am a vet rdm and fully understand the haste/refresh cycles

I sometimes hated "veteran Red Mages" in parties. >_>; <_<;

They often forget it's not Lv.75, Convert won't give a Lv.50 RDM 800+ MP, and Fast Cast gear is the "hat" and only the "hat"--which isn't usable until Lv.60.

Had this one THF who wouldn't leave me alone in party... /tell after /tell of asking for Haste when I'm co-healer with a melee-Avatar SMN in a party which needed Refresh x4, and kept said stuff like "You still have 60 MP" in arguing for his 40 MP Haste. :vent: I seriously wanted to kill that "I'm RDM75, I can do it, why can't you?" THF.

Ended up leaving the party after he died and blamed me for it. (Guess what I just casted? Haste, to shut him up. And, why would a THF/NIN with Utusemi get beat down to 0 HP during the middle of a battle? Because he pulled without a /p macro before the current monster is dead, and I was too busy to notice and couldn't telepathically figure out what was happening.)

For a few days, I wouldn't put up seek flag until I put in the search comments "Showmo {No Thanks.}" :biggrin: Too bad a GM made me take it off. Who would have thought {No Thanks.} is language too harsh for FFXI? >_>;

* * *

I'm sure the OP isn't one of those kind of RDM75.

I guess my real point is just asking people to be a little more understanding of lower level mages when they recently received role changing spells. And, don't carry expectations from Lv.75 merit parties down to Lv.50 or something. ^_^;

[Keon]

I stated that asked through /t, not /p, about casting haste. I am not fond of the "vet rdm" as well and never mention it during play. I play to play, not to coach.
When my character is tanking I do expect the healers to know how to play their jobs. This is not a matter of knowing advance casting techniques. Haste should be used regardless of what you do. It is a great asset in exp pt, wether nin or pld tanks. The mp used to cast the spell clearly is justified by the effect.

[fallenintoshadows]

I sometimes hated "veteran Red Mages" in parties. >_>; <_<;

They often forget it's not Lv.75, Convert won't give a Lv.50 RDM 800+ MP, and Fast Cast gear is the "hat" and only the "hat"--which isn't usable until Lv.60.


I feel your pain, my red mage is only level 60 at the moment but sometimes I get really put off of leveling it. I don't mind people giving me helpful tips, red mage was my first mage I bothered to really level past 37 and when I had haste and refresh to handle with I wanted to make sure I cast on everyone I needed to and didn't miss anything. So I asked a 75 rdm friend who told me to Refresh > Haste > Refresh etc and then just start the cycle again when your own Refresh wears. However, I absolutely hate it when people decide to throw in their own opinion of your red mage skills, unasked and let's face it, most of the time they're just being arrogant. No one likes to be told how to play their job, no one plays a certain job exactly the same way. They have to learn what works best for them whilst leveling.

I once replaced a red mage in a level 55ish party, the leader spammed me with /tells saying I should be meleeing at the same time, to which I replied I wanted to rest as much as I could (especially seeing as they were pulling like it was a merit party) but he just complained how their last red mage, a taru red mage never had to rest. If I had the mp pool of a taru I would of gladly never rested :thumbsup: However seeing as I don't have uber mp he had to shut up and put up with me needing to rest. But not after trying to argue how him ( a pup) needed haste a hell of a lot more than the tank.

I think if someone asks for advice on their job, give it to them, if not leave them the hell alone unless they are seriously messing up big time.

[WishMaster3K]

People are retarded.

[Omni]

People are retarded.


I think this alone, is most accurate.

[hongman]

The only time I toss haste to other melee is if I have someone helping me cure (which means then, an additonal Refresh).

If I have a WHM in the party, I can normally spilt haste duties to help (2 each or something).

If something bad happens and I spend mor MP than usual, Haste on other melees is the first to be cut back on.

And I think this is the general concensus across the board, if it isnt, tough I'm not changing xD

[Omni]

u must haste everyone, rdm. EVERYONE.

[WishMaster3K]

u must haste everyone, rdm. EVERYONE.

Except for Omni.

He can rely on his gimp gear

/shiftyeyes

[Nuriko]

u must haste everyone, rdm. EVERYONE.

I hope you'll make an exception for RNG...

[Omni]

Except for Omni.
He can rely on his gimp gear
/shiftyeyes

/em slugshots Wiskmaster1k.

I love my gimp gear, thank you very much. It's well, so gimpy.

And I'm an og nin. Evasion gear build ftw.

[hongman]

Funny, I actuaklly had a meripo last night where this thread popped into my head.

Setup was RDM (me) SMN WAR WAR NIN RNG @ Mamool Ja.

I was the only heal as the SMN was busy doing Predator Claws at every chance (lol @ 58 PC...) Hastega DD, also eventually Earthen Ward after I asked.

One WAR dropped and another WAR replaced, first thing I get is "Haste Can I have it?" - 10s later same thing...

So I said "I cast Haste on Tank only, DD are getting Hastega when its ready"

WAR: "Haste please"

ME: "FFS STFU"(given, I dont normally bite, but I was annoyed)

SMN: "Ill use Hastega when the timer is up!"

NIN: "Baut just haste the fuckin WAR and not me so I dont have to listen to that all party long" (lol!)

War disbands.

Phew, thank god for that.

[WishMaster3K]

Yeah the WAR disbanded like he was so requested for.

I'm guilty of catering to the jobs I love, and I tell the mages if they're doing phenominal jobs.

But this WHM I had the other day... I swear he only had the necessary Cure spells to his name. No Erase. No Haste. No Poisona.

God, I hated him, and I made it painfully obvious that I didn't care too much for him, because me and the RDM were holding it down.

I wish I woulda taken the chance to BList his lvl-8gear-in-Crawler's-Nest-on-Soldier-Crawlers-havin behind, but I was preoccupied crying after the RDM said he needed to disband.

[hongman]

lvl-8gear-in-Crawler's-Nest-on-Soldier-Crawlers-havin behind

lol...

[Keon]

My string of exp pt with retarded mages ended last night! We camped in Quicksand Caves, eastern zone entrance, and pulled Beetles/Spiders. I didn't even have to ask last for haste OR erase. The DD melee's never complained about not getting haste or beg for it. Having my Ni back at 36 sec recast is very nice indeed, it is about frickin' time.

[Taskmage]

That is what I meant as well. Perhaps the ratio it reduces is altered while weakened so you wouldn't notice lower recast spells, but I know that for Raise III it does make a difference, and fairly certain that it does effect Utsusemi.
I'll reconfirm when I get home tonight.I had the opportunity to test this explicitly the other night while recovering from a wipe. I cast Haste, then Refresh. Recast on Refresh was 28 seconds. Then I canceled Haste and cast Refresh again. Recast was 28 seconds again. The Haste spell does not affect recast timers while weakened.

[WishMaster3K]

My Refresh is usually in the 40s when I'm weakened.

Or I might be mistaken.. Maybe different Raises have different penalties?

[Taskmage]

I did get an R3, but my understanding is that normal weakness gives a flat +100% slow effect regardles of the raise used. I did have Duelist's Tabard and Warlock's Chapeau on at the time, though I wouldn't have expected them to knock off a whole 12 seconds of recast by themselves.

The wiki lists a recast time on Refresh of 18 seconds. Taking that to be true, if base recast * fast cast mods * weakness effect = recast time while weakened, then

18 seconds * (100% - 20%) * (100% +100%) = 28.8 seconds

which the display probably truncated to 28. Seems to work out.