Ouch.

[WishMaster3K]

I want to take PLD to 75. It's an awesome job. Right now I'm 40, and I was in Gustav tunnel for a few hours with a pt (used empress band in town to 0/7, recharged, exped, used it again then used Anniversary ring to last usage).

BTW, Refresh, when someone casts it on you = AWESOME! I know why PLDs love RDMs so much now.

Anyway, MNK hit's 41, and what do you know, I kan't keep hate through Raging Fists.

:(

Effing Galkas. Effing MNKs. I heard it only get's worse as you level up..

My gear is pretty basic. @ 40 I upgraded to that VIT helmet and that body piece with 32 Defense. Still rocking the lvl 36VT rings, HQ Arms legs and feet on the Kamp, Drone Earrings, Warrior's Belt, Medieval Collar and the High Breath Mantle. I thought I was the shyt when I got that lvl 39 Enmity+1 sword (name escapes my mind right now.)

But I know PLDs in general have more Enmity than other PT members, and thankfully, as I leveled up, monsters have hit me harder (for once.) and I can now Cure myself for decent hate and be able to keep up a good supply with Auto-RF, Refresh and resting inbetween fights (I love the new Signet).

So maybe this is an isolated problem? I'm sure that without a THF in the PT, keeping hate off the MNK would have been hard. :( As it is, I use Flash and Provoke whenever up and with my MP pool I can cure for a while..

Anyway, I just want some feedback. (*glares at Weeeekujata..*)

I intend to get the Brigidiane(sp?) at 45, and upgrade my earrings to the VIT earring (from WAR sub) and the Buckler Earring.

And also, since a few points of Defense are a drop in the bucket, would getting that Gaia's bodypiece (a lil less Def than what I have now, but +4 VIT) be good, or should I just hold out for the Brig @ 45?

And what about that JSE body at lvl 50?

I'm going to look into Taru RSE stuff kause SE gives us Free VIT :-/..

Ah, I just don't wanna suck!!! Help!!!!!!! *Calls the Elite Beat Agents...*

[Omni]

its just mnks in general. when in kuftal at 41, thats like the upper end of that camp. mnks will be laying the hurt and bats/gobbies are the toughest of mobs in terms of defense either.

i had a pt in mire last night and even at 71, pld can still have trouble keeping hate. especially when i eat meat and get haste.

its not you.

[Tokitoki]

Gustav Tunnel?

[Omni]

gah, right. gustav. cant do kuftal till lower-mid 50s.

i always get those 2 mixed up.

[WishMaster3K]

No it was my Typo, I'm a retard >_>;

Well what gear should I be looking for? There isn't really a PLD gear guide.

I mean, for the most part, PLDs wear AF, and if given a chance, Macro in Relic etc etc, and there are MP recovery things that are pretty much required..

But damn, I figured that PLD tanking was easy. And here it seems that it's very friggin hard. I think I'm going to start working on that Aegis.

[Tokitoki]

MNKs are just a**holes. No tank ever likes PTing with a good MNK, because a good MNK will pull hate no matter who's tanking.

Though then again I guess a good MNK would realize when they have to calm down a minute and let the tank establish more hate.

You can grab some extra enmity where ever possible, but either way there are going to be people that take hate from you.

I would say try to get a Parade Cuirass though, yea.

[Omni]

its hard sometimes, when auto-attacking pulls hate.

[Mhurron]

I figured that PLD tanking was easy.
All I have to say is, what made you think it was going to be easy?

[Feba]

But damn, I figured that PLD tanking was easy.

name one thing in FFXI that is.

[Mhurron]

name one thing in FFXI that is.
BLM.

[WishMaster3K]

Well the transition from being a RDM to PLD isn't that severe. Thinking about it, it's probably the most logical and skill swappable change to make from being front line to back line. It's Mob mitigation, from a different direction.

But unlike RDM, a PLD only has 1 main function, and their job depends on whether or not the majority of the party is competent...

[Cotners]

BLM.

Wrong, it's easy to be a retarded BLM.

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. Sounds like your equipment is fine.
- Consider using Dorado Sushi when the monsters are VT and lower.
- Stack Flash and Provoke at the very beginning of the fight, if you don't already.
- Ask for no WS before 2nd Provoke.
- Make sure the healers don't over-cure; you want a "buffer" on your HP bar so you can drop a full Cure II on yourself at any time.
- Haste. Yeah, yeah, "You PLD's don't need it blah blah blah"... Get it anyway; shortening the recast time for Flash is very helpful.
- Make the overzealous DD's get behind you, so you can Cover easily.

[WishMaster3K]

Oh, well the MNK was the 1st voke, but I'll keep that other stuff in mind. I HATE being over cured. Nothing worst than Me doing a Cure II at the same time as the WHM and mine procs for like 50 some odd health back. -_-

I guess WHMs get a little touchy with that kinda stuff, so I kan't blame them for the enthusiasm.

[Jarre]

I was wondering why Mnk had first voke? surely that gives him a starter for 10 in the emnity stakes? Also What are you hitting mobs for? The difference between a Galka PLD and a Taru pld (dependant on str and attack stats) can be noticable in the keeping of emnity comparing it to the Mnks attack rate/damage dealing.

As mentioned get the monk behind you and use cover to snatch some emnity and if possible have a thf who can SATA and push extra emnity onto you. Thats been my experience around lvl 38 (though I am a galka PLD)

[Tokitoki]

Probably had a THF to open fight with SATA.

[Armando]

Regarding Gaia Doublet: Yes, you could get it. You could also not. The difference is small. It's all personal preference, looks, costs, and a little bit of superstition. Seriously, whichever you use is fine.

And yeah, it's pretty much a MNK problem. But, just to make sure you aren't missing any tricks: Are you making full use of Cover? How about Sentinel? Sentinel almost ensures hate is on you for the rest of the fight. Are you using your WS as an extra hate tool? Are Woodsman Rings (or a Woodsman + Venerer) within your budget? That extra 4-5% hit rate will help your hate. Also, like Itazura suggested, if the mobs aren't high IT, you could try the Sushi route. I don't have experience with using sushi this early but considering Refresh is at its strongest right now, it could work.

Also, for whatever it's worth, (in my opinion) PLD tanking is easy when people aren't total retards. And even when people do stupid things it's still easy, even if frustrating. A PLD can only do so much, and there's not that much for a PLD to do.

[WishMaster3K]

Didn't use Sentinel at all for the duration of the PT. The only times I had/noticed "problems" - if you want to call them anything - were when the THF did SATA at the end of the fight off the MNK, and I had to first voke at the start of the next.

I noticed that the MNK and I had similar hate values bekause after one WS from him, and maybe a few missed Cures on my part and the mob was facing him.

But for the most part, the THF was able to SATA off the MNK a few times for damage/TP or whatever the freak THFs do, and the mob wouldn't turn. So it's all ok, I suppose, but my concerns were what would happen if a THF wasn't there.

MNKs are a friggin broken job. Them and SAMs. -_-;; But I guess more enmity in the front, no matter who, gives less to the back.

Or maybe he had Merits, because he was definitely doing Raging Fists before 41...

[Yellow Mage]

As mentioned get the monk behind you and use cover to snatch some emnity and if possible have a thf who can SATA and push extra emnity onto you. Thats been my experience around lvl 38 (though I am a galka PLD)

Nit-picky thing, but Cover doesn't "snatch" enmity (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Cover).

Also, and I'm going to be cautious about this, but why does the OP spell "can't" as "kan't?"

[Armando]

Doesn't sound like you had "problems" often. You should be able to fix it up with Sentinel (the ultimate hate-grabber...just slap on a Cure and/or a Flash after it and watch the mob stay on you) or Cover. If you can anticipate the situation, that's great. If you can actually coordinate with the MNK so he lets you know beforehand when he's going to WS or whatever, then you're set.

Hell, you should always strive to use those abilities even if you manage to hold hate fine without them throughout all the party. They (especially Sentinel) let DDs periodically do something that would normally be extremely reckless and get away with it (I'm looking at you, DRKs.) That and 30 secs of practically 0 damage is incredibly sexy.

It'll get "worse" as you go up in the sense that you'll start seeing crazier numbers each time, but you'll be able to stay on par. If you do the DD PLD thing in the 60's (not possible in every party, but in many it is) you can practically hold hate with Autoattack and Flashes.

[Jarre]

Why was the thf SATA'ing with the mnk and not you the tank? In Crawlers nest Thf always SATA'd with me and I hardly lost hate. Thf SATA I provoke then flash and I get the mobs attention for a long time.

[Armando]

He's saying sometimes the THF would use SATA at the end of the fight, and since the mob was already on him, the THF would SATA the MNK instead, presumably finishing off the mob.

[Akashimo]

Hmmm, like some of the previous statements I follow in the same jobs there

As a monk focusing on maxing out DoT and WS, I'd generally wait until the mob is 60-50% in hp before ws, unless in a sc with a SATAer. Though i can still steal hate w/o having to ws >_>;; And no, I don't have enmity gear/merits.

Thf, SATA at start, preferrably w/ ws, otherwise, like the others said, as finisher on the other dd.

Pld. Start with Flash, followed by Voke and either Shield Bash or Sentinal, which ever is up. Cure III and just voke and flash when needed, saving the 5 minute JA for the next mob at the start. Which unless my static samuria 2 hours or the blu goes apesh*t on casting headbutt and other enmity spells -.-;; Other than that its really hard to loose hate unless someone really wants to pull it off you.

[Ameroth]

the blu goes apesh*t

Good thing that asterisk is there so I don't know what that word is supposed to be.

------

On topic:

I see that you mentioned rarely using Sentinel. That's not so much that it's bad... It's just not good at all. Sentinel is an incredible JA that not only decreases damage you take, but also gives an incredible spike in enmity. Using Sentinel as often as possible will surely make your life easier.

Shield Bash is another helpful tool. It's uses include interrupting an enemy before it casts a big spell, stunning an enemy, turning the mob if you have just barely lost hate, or just a useful tool to help keep hate in between cures, flash, and JAs. Use it.

Then there's the obvious use of Provoke, Flash, and cures. Voke as often as possible (an exception would be near the end of a battle if you're the first provoke and the puller doesn't like to rest), and flash the mob when you can. I generally don't use flash while Sentinel is in effect. Seems pointless to blind the enemy if it hitting you for low damage increases hate.

Another helpful bit of advice is to use the /recast macro command. I have one macro that I filled all 6 lines with /recast. One for provoke, flash, sentinel, shield bash, cover, and rampart (Awesome ass JA when you get it).

Oh also, make sure you are using Defender. It lasts as long as the recast timer is and gives a pretty good boost in defense. Very helpful.

Lastly, unless you're fighting Colibiri (which you aren't yet), food is veeeeery helpful. I've been using boiled crab, tavnazian tacos, and any other food that increases DEF and/or VIT.

Hope I didn't forget anything. My main job is Paladin and I love it. I strive to be the best tank I can be. In reality, it's not all the difficult of a job as long as you know what you're doing and have a competent party. And remember that a good Paladin knows that they can't keep hate 100% of the time. Do what you can though. When that damage-happy mnk pulls hate, use Cover. When a DD does a WS and starts getting hurt, throw a Cure II or III at them (I have macros for targetting party members with Cures) to not only help the main healer, but to pull more hate. Use you're head and you'll do fine.

[IfritnoItazura]

One of my past static party had PLD, THF, and MNK, for the front line. What the PLD did was to Flash as the MNK used Provoke to set up SATA, to reduce the damage the MNK takes, as well as to make sure he doesn't fall behind in enmity too much. Curing the MNK while he's taking a beating setting up SATA is also helpful.

Also, if the MNK is that damaging, he might as well Provoke-Boost again if the THF wants to use SATA mid battle, so the THF can SATA on you instead. Heck, you may be able to go easier on enmity food/gear and use more defense or offense orientated gear or food if the THF can SATA mid battle on you.

* * *

I generally don't use flash while Sentinel is in effect. Seems pointless to blind the enemy if it hitting you for low damage increases hate.
Hmm. I do it a lot on PLD, actually. It's just easier to pile up enmity when you can (Sentinel increases actions' enmity), instead of struggle to get the monster back after the DD's use WS.

In the OP's case, where he had a THF who would SATA off the MNK, I'd say it'd be a good idea to make sure he can toss in Provoke, Flash, and a full strength Cure II or two while Sentinel is up.

[Ameroth]

Hmm. I do it a lot on PLD, actually. It's just easier to pile up enmity when you can (Sentinel increases actions' enmity), instead of struggle to get the monster back after the DD's use WS.


I find that using sentinel, then a cure II or III shortly after, and finally a Voke before sentinel wears is just as effective and saves flash for slightly later. Honestly though this all really depends on your play style. Figure out what works for you in different situations and work with that.

[WishMaster3K]

Oh sheesh, I didn't want to give EVERY detail, but ok..

For the most part, after SATA lands on me, I Voke, flash, use whichever 5 min ability is up, and I start curing when necessary. Repeat as timers go down or based on party flow.

Over long fights, I find that it's generally impossible for hate to be ripped from me, but on short quick ones, the Melee's are usually going batshyte crazy.

Sentinel is AWESOME. Shield Bash is usually saved for Goblin Bombs, but I generally use it and Sentinel based on what's up.

I also throw on Berserk while Sentinel is active and usually try to capitalize on that with a WS at the time. Holy Circle I only use if I'm bored.

Yellow Mage, me spelling "can't" as "kan't" sometimes is an old habit (just something I picked up from being a NUPE) that I try to avoid doing on forums where people might generally not understand why the fudge I'm doing so. Essentially, it's not uncommon to see me replace the sharp "c" sound with a "k".

[IfritnoItazura]

For the most part, after SATA lands on me, I Voke, flash, use whichever 5 min ability is up, and I start curing when necessary. Repeat as timers go down or based on party flow.
It's better to Flash even before the SATA, to reduce the damage on MNK/first provoker. (MNK can hold the critter with Provke and punches.)

I also throw on Berserk while Sentinel is active and usually try to capitalize on that with a WS at the time.
One trick I learned from Armando: when you're not using Defender full time, you can use Berserk, WS, then throw up Defender. Next time you have enough TP, click off Defender, WS, then click off Berserk. (Doesn't work for Spirits Within, obviously.)

I've combined Sentinel and Berserk as well, but for some reason I tend to forget to click off Berserk or throw up Defender afterwards, so I tend not to do it very often. :wasted:

[Armando]

Too tired to write a full post right now. Regarding Flash and Sentinel, though - keep in mind that you can always just cast Flash a few seconds before Sentinel wears, and you get the best of both worlds.

And Berserk + Sentinel + WS is lovely. Just wanted to say that.

[Akashimo]

Berserk and sentinel for ws, hmm i gotta try that next time i level pld.

[Celeal]

To OP:

IMHO, if there is no downtime or death, it does not really matter if the mob turns to the MNK in your party (to a certain extend). If your presence as a PLD tank provides a safe environment to your party, then your basic role is fullfilled.

All the posters in the above posts already give good advices and tactics, so I am not going to repeat. My suggestion is consistency in your hate management. If you cure the MNK when the MNK has hate, be consistently cure the MNK (if your MP is allowed). If Cover is what you use when the MNK spike hate, be consistent with Cover. As long as your hate is consistent over time, the hate of your party members will also be consistent over time. However, I am not saying to have a flat-rate hate level all the time. What I mean is to have hate goes up-and-down consistently over time. For example, if the PLD uses Sentinel in every exp. chain #4 battles, the DDs may eventually flow with the PLD and go crazy in every exp. chain #4. Either the PLD set the up-and-down of the hate threshold, or the PLD adjust the hate routine according to the flow of the party.

[Tokitoki]

I don't think ever in my 4 years of playing have I ever paid enough attention to the tank for my PT to notice any patterns... The only thing that a DD is concerned with is WS (since Skillchains seem to have died out along with the release of ToAU), using their own JAs, and making sure their attacks land. The only time you notice the tank's pattern of hate is when you yourself have hate and you want them to take it back.

[WishMaster3K]

Yeah, we definitely had a DRG and THF there, but I never noticed Distortion. Not once. -_- And Distortion is the most common sound I've heard before everyone and their dog wanted to start Light and Dark.

[Tokitoki]

Distortion was the reason THF were invited to PTs. Now THF don't know what it was really like to be a THF. I feel bad for them.

[WishMaster3K]

Distortion is awesome because even a bad THF can get 400 off of VB, bursting for at least 200, and the resulting MB would most assuredly kill the mob or at least have it REALLY pissed at the tank.

Skillchains just ain't been the same. I would love to have SATA+SC go off on me, but I hate when other ppl get hate, even for a second. Makes me nervous..

[Omni]

tanks are lazy these days. (not saying you wishmaster2.5k).
the idea of getting great xp has spoiled people so no one takes the time to line up, sata, etc.

its sad.

[Aeni]

WM~

Dude, I feel your pain. I know of many good pallies who were good at 75 but let me tell you, at 41, with a monk or two or sometimes three, they will all tell you that it was hell.

1. Get a THF to SATA on you.

2. Tell MNK to hold off on RF. No need to spam that everytime it's up 100% unless you're doing TP burn at 40sh... which you should not be doing.

3. Tell your healers lay off on petty healing (towards you)

4. Spam your WS (if you have it, don't bother participating in renkei)

5. Spread out your JAs as much as possible. Heal the monk, tell healer, again, lay off petty heals (They should be spot healing with a pally, not power healing)

6. Use Flash a few seconds after provoking, not the other way around. Reasoning is you need it to keep from casting interrupts. Don't "waste" it on the get go when mob is still trying to get to you :P Front loading enmity is nice and all, but remember, you're only spiking the enmity and putting all of them on cooldowns while the MNK is providing a good and nice steady DPS which will nullify all that front loading after a few seconds. You need to pace your enmity with the MNK's DPS.

Those are the only tips I can provide. Worked in unison, you shouldn't have issues.

[Vyuru]

My own personal thoughts on the matter:

There is always the special circumstance, but no thief should ever be finishing off the mob with SATA, why you ask? Because they should be planting a SATA+WS at the start of the fight, if they use SATA to end one fight then they have to wait a full minute before pulling, or pulling and letting hate bounce all over the place.

Also, a thf should not be planting SATA onto a high hate job such as monk, in most situations.

And if you have a drg and thf in the party why are there no nice Double/Raiden Thrust > SATA Viper Bite SC going off? Even at that level I was able to manage my hate well enough with High Jump to allow thfs to SATA+Viper Bite for a SC onto me mid fight if they so wished, it just got easier with Super Jump. But then I did have an exceptional Pld and Thf to party with.

I mostly party with thiefs, so I would say that once the SATA+WS lands on you your party can go wild without too much worry, a simple Flash and Provoke afterwards is just gravy.

If the whm has to heal someone, say thf is low on hp after pulling or something, either toss on a regen I/II onto the thief before he heads out, or toss out the heals before the thief comes back into hate generating range. There does seem to be a distance factor into how hate works, and I've seen whm drop Cure IV with no ill affects while a mob was being pulled.

[IfritnoItazura]

6. Use Flash a few seconds after provoking, not the other way around. Reasoning is you need it to keep from casting interrupts. Don't "waste" it on the get go when mob is still trying to get to you :P Front loading enmity is nice and all, but remember, you're only spiking the enmity and putting all of them on cooldowns while the MNK is providing a good and nice steady DPS which will nullify all that front loading after a few seconds. You need to pace your enmity with the MNK's DPS.

I static'ed with PLD, MNK, and THF before, so I can tell you that a normal decent MNK in Lv.50's will NOT be able to "nullify all that front loading after a few seconds", not if the PLD is any good, since he should be generating his own enmity nicely. (MNK's with lot's of merits and best of the best equipment may be different, of course.)

When we first started, the PLD would wait until SATA to Provoke and Flash, and that didn't work out very well for the MNK's HP, and his WS's were often self-MPK attempts. I suggested to the PLD to Flash and cast Cures on the MNK as soon as the MNK used initial Provoke, and that turned out very well for us.

Having tried both ways, we liked the the early Flash and Cures much better--it worked so well that the MNK could open fights with his WS, then the RNG-THF made Distortion, and BLM (me) could MB with Freeze without too much concern. That's like 80%+ of a typical IT monster's health gone 4 seconds after the PLD's first Provoke.

"Saving" Flash for when you want to Cure yourself is a very bad tactic in my book; it greatly waste one of PLD's best enmity tool, and causes the party to take on lot's of unnecessary damage.

Timing is the key to getting large Cures through (and Shield is your second best friend in reducing cast interrupts). The only time Flash should be saved for more than a few seconds is toward the end of the battle in fast pull situations, so you'd have it up immediate at the start of the next fight.

* * *

I'm also a PLD64, and I've tried both Provoke-Flash and Flash-Provoke, and ended up liking Flash-Provoke at the start of the battle more, because Flash has longer timer than Provoke, and the sooner I use it the sooner I get it back. (I don't have much haste gear. lol. >_< )

[Murphie]

I preferred to front load my hate as well as a PLD (way back in the day). Sure, I saved a couple of tricks for those moments of panic, but with my static setup, hate was rarely an issue. But really, use your best judgement. By the time you're moving into the 40s, you should have a pretty good idea of what tools you have available, and how best to use them.

[Armando]

As far as I can tell enmity from Flash isn't going anywhere fast (i.e. if it even goes away with time at all, it does so slowly.) Using Flash earlier just means you start with pretty much the same enmity you would've if you had used it later, but you reach that enmity value sooner.

I usually do Provoke -> Flash for three reasons. 1) Since Provoke is a JA then there's practically no delay to wait before I can use Flash after it. 2) Less likely to "waste a hit" due to the mob being Flashed for 4 secs before getting to me. 3) It gives me better cover if I'm going to open the fight with a WS (Berserk + Sushi Vorpal Blades ftw.) To each his own, though. In the grand scheme of things it shouldn't make too big a difference.

[Aeni]

I static'ed with PLD, MNK, and THF before, so I can tell you that a normal decent MNK in Lv.50's will NOT be able to "nullify all that front loading after a few seconds", not if the PLD is any good, since he should be generating his own enmity nicely. (MNK's with lot's of merits and best of the best equipment may be different, of course.)

You misinterpreted many things in my post.

1. No, you don't save Flash (Please point out where I said to "save" it)

2. You will most likely need to heal yourself in the first 5 seconds. DO NOT LET HEALER HEAL YOU. Having Flash here will help immensely to reduce casting time (from interrupts) and you do not want a Stun here either (Same reason as being healed by someone else)

3. You're already in your 50s. By then, more equipment options as well as a bigger MP pool. I believe we're talking at level 41? When MNKs have Raging Fists (Merited MNKs with the right accessories can get it in level 40 cap areas)

Once you get off a Flash in the first few seconds, you will not get it back for another 45sec (Unless SE changed this since the time I've been away) I'm not sure about you, but 45 sec is eternity. Provoke is on a 30sec timer, a bit less of a wait, but it's a wait nonetheless.

Here's the thing. If your party takes so long to kill ONE mob that you end up using more than 2 flashes ... something is wrong. Thus, the "need" to have another Flash up right away is misleading. Mobs should not take longer than 90sec to down or you're having some issues with some or all of your party members (Or you're fighting the wrong mobs for your setup or one of great difficulty)

I do not like this "one-size fits all" mentality of play. As someone wise once told me, it's far better to kill 3 High Ts in the same time it takes to kill 1 IT.