Why can't SE let us reserve Dynamis?

[Shadowneko]

I just thought this up this morning since I'm not sure SE can make Dynamis an instanced zone because of the way it's set up. Why can we have a reservation system similar to the way you can reserve a Brenner or a Balista field? I mean this would solve alot of conflicts with 10 sets of Linkshells trying to do the zones all at the same time. I know that some servers have their own makeshift reservation system but this does not always work out.....

[Gyotsha]

SE made the dynamis system the way they did on purpose. They gave a reason behind it at one point, but I have forgotten what it is. Something like it adds to the experience, by having to compete to get in or whatever. Or perhaps it stops people from going in as much as possible. Something like that. All that you need to know is SE made it like that, and they won't be changing it any time soon however inconvenient it may be for the players.

[BurningPanther]

I actually posed a similar concern previously in this forum, to be found here. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/february-2007-earlier/59916-event-scheduling-through-official-pol-site.html?highlight=dynamis)

I can live with the 72-hour stopgap, I can live with the 1 million gill entry fee. What I can't live with, and continue to rage against, is the fact that they gave us Dynamis, this sweeping, costly event, and left it's management in the hands of the players. Over the three or four Dynamis shells I've been in, I've seen numerous planned runs stepped on, either because the violating shell simply doesn't schedule through the same website, or because the violating individuals simply chose to ignore the rules set by their peers, such as RMT shells are often wont to do. What is worse, every time this happens, there is not a single thing that can be done about it. Because all management is handled by the players "off the books," GMs aren't beholden to stop it; not in their jurisdiction. In every case, if Dynamis had been scheduled in-game, or better still, reserved a la Brenner/Diorama Abdahljs, interrupting peoples' scheduled runs could have been punished, or sidestepped completely. Best yet would be to simply instance Dynamis, keeping each entry on the 72-hour timer, but instead allowing multiple shells to enter without fear of being interrupted.

I don't care what excuses the developers had in mind, losing your run to another shell because management isn't centralized, or because there will be no accountability is simply unacceptable, and I'll continue to crusade until S-E wakes up to their short-sightedness, or until they discontinue Dynamis.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Best yet would be to simply instance Dynamis, keeping each entry on the 72-hour timer, but instead allowing multiple shells to enter without fear of being interrupted.

While I agree Dynamis should be re-worked to be instanced, I highly doubt its "simple" to make such a change. There really wasn't true instancing in FFXI or MMOs in general at the time Dynamis came out.

[Shadowneko]

While I agree Dynamis should be re-worked to be instanced, I highly doubt its "simple" to make such a change. There really wasn't true instancing in FFXI or MMOs in general at the time Dynamis came out.

What I'm thinking of is an internal scheduling system...so you can say XXX's group has it at 7:00 PM EST or something like that. All other rules still apply and if the reserving party does not trade the hourglass with a certian period of time (say 15 minutes) the zone becomes available to anyone.

It'd be pretty hard to rework it to be instanced but an internal scheduler would be pretty easy to set up....

[Kirsteena]

www.dynamiscalendar.com

If everyone used a central calendar, you would get what we have on Bahamut - civilised Dynamis. Hardly anyone gets their zone jacked.

[Amele]

except that dynamis-calendar is english onry pretty much and not every server really uses the same calendar.

( a few of the groups list on both english and japanese calendars - which is the best way to go about it really).

SE implemented a calendar system of their own which would work fine if people actually used it.

[Aeni]

SE made the dynamis system the way they did on purpose. They gave a reason behind it at one point, but I have forgotten what it is. Something like it adds to the experience, by having to compete to get in or whatever. Or perhaps it stops people from going in as much as possible. Something like that. All that you need to know is SE made it like that, and they won't be changing it any time soon however inconvenient it may be for the players.

One of the dumbest reasoning ever.

The reason why it worked at the beginning was the fact that there weren't very many organized HNM LS that could participate in the events. Many LS were very small, usually centered around 20 players who could sufficiently handle HNMs, but were not prepared to take on bigger challenges.

With advent of Dynamis, linkshells were forced to expand and recruit. This caused some problems, particularly with HNM LS. The solution? Form co-op Dynamis Onry LS with each other.

What eventually made this hard to pull together was the introduction of DKP into FFXI (where it was non-present beforehand) There were many controversies of who the tallying would be left to and much problems arose.

When the co-ops collapsed, there were left many players who now had enough knowledge and strategy of Dynamis. Eventually Dynamis was becoming "easier" to complete and required fewer and fewer players to run.

Eventually, HNM LS could now do these w/o having to form co-ops with other LS and without need for additional recruiting.

As the server population continued to mature and more and more players started to cap at level 75, the pool of players interested in participating in Dynamis kept increasing. The catch? Dynamis remained the same and thus the problems arose from this.

1. You can't extend a 24 hour day anymore than it is (Law of Nature)
2. You can't arbitrarily decide on how many Dynamis LS can be created on each server.
3. You can't predict when members of each LS can be available for what days a run can be scheduled.

********************


I believe that an instanced Dynamis can be easily created which will retain participation information and thus still retain the present 72 hour rule, but allow for any number of groups to enter at anytime.

[Omniblast]

I agree dynamis is stupid, in that way. I also wished there was another way to obtain additional AF or allow you to trade AF from one set for another. This way, no AF goes to waste.

For example. I have whm af2 feet, I'd rather get the smn af2 feet. I could just trade it + some dynamis currency to someone for the other type of AF. Though, this probably wouldn't be implemented...

[Shadowneko]

www.dynamiscalendar.com (http://www.dynamiscalendar.com)

If everyone used a central calendar, you would get what we have on Bahamut - civilised Dynamis. Hardly anyone gets their zone jacked.

Except for the fact that there are probably thousands of LS's per server and not all of them can use sites like yours. Some of them aren't even english speaking...if something like that were made internal to the game then it'd work out. If it's just a group of people with a message board + public calender then you're still gonna have problems....

[Amele]

Except for the fact that there are probably thousands of LS's per server and not all of them can use sites like yours. Some of them aren't even english speaking...if something like that were made internal to the game then it'd work out. If it's just a group of people with a message board + public calender then you're still gonna have problems....

thousands is a big overestimation.

I'd can name only about 8 active dynamis linkshells on my server at this time, and allowing for EU and JP linkshells I can't see; I'd estimate the number of active linkshells to be about double that. 16 - then there is usually 1 or 2 linkshells per primetime that are just getting started and will scrub out in a month, so 18ish total.

so you're looking at communication lines between 18 people, spread out over 7 days. (the issue comes up in that approximately half of these shells run on saturday and the other half on sunday, except for the one odd shell who does monday/thursday or tuesday/friday etc) but even split down the middle on a weekend, you have 10 dynamis zones to run - so you could still *ALL* go at the same time.

[BurningPanther]

If I had to throw around numbers, I'd guess as far as active Dynamis linkshells, there'd be about 6-10 JP, 8-10 NA, 8-10 EU. Roughly 30 shells spread out over 7 days, not counting the RMT shells(number varying to the amount of companies I'd guess).

In a perfect world, there'd be no problem. Everyone would use the same site, which catered to multiple languages, nobody would change their runs last-minute, and there would be no RMT to juke the rules.

But the world isn't perfect. People don't use the same site, not all sites cater to other languages, people do change runs on the fly, and RMT will still step on your run regardless of whether you scheduled it or not.

In-game reservation, or S-E based scheduling(and enforcement), would take the negative variables out.

[Amele]

your server may perhaps be quite different than mine then BurningPanther :)

I'd guess you're close on the JP numbers, you're a little high on NA for my server (there's 6) and you're definitely high on EU - since most of the active EU players on my server either shift to JP or NA prime time for larger events like dynamis.

we also have no RMT shells that run dynamis (I have some guesses why but in the meantime I'll count my blessings.) or if there are any that do, they go during the off time when none of the active shells is running.

[Grizzlebeard]

If I had to throw around numbers, I'd guess as far as active Dynamis linkshells, there'd be about 6-10 JP, 8-10 NA, 8-10 EU.

I'm willing to bet there aren't more than 10 EU Dynamis shells on all the servers let alone one.

[BurningPanther]

I don't think I'm high at all on the NA Dynamis shell numbers, I'd guess at about eight NA shells at the least on my server. Though, my EU estimations might be exaggerated, but definitely more than one, as I know of at least two Spanish shells, and a possible third or fourth floating about.

All the same; a lot of people, far more jacked runs than there should be, and there should be absolutely none at all.

[Raydeus]

Question, how would you manage time extensions if a LS reserves the same zone to start 1-2 hours after another LS went in?

[Amele]

zones could only reserve in max time blocks.

yes. this means that areas that don't get max timed frequently ('sup icelands / outlands) will result in fewer runs being possible on the same night, rather than more.

[Murphie]

Yeah, that's what I was going to suggest. Just reserving with maximum time extensions considered.

[Raydeus]

I don't like it.

I hope if SE ever considers doing this they will go with instancing instead.

[Murphie]

Instancing would likely require a lot more work than merely allowing for the maximum possible time when scheduling slots.

[Raydeus]

The only way I could even think about this working is if the requisite for reserving an area was actually trading a glass or two, that way you'd know the player who made the reservation is at least serious about using that time slot.

Otherwise if a LS didn't make it to their reservation time then the slot would be lost (and it wouldn't cost a thing to the offender LS), imagine all that time wasted because a LS reserved the place and couldn't make it in time, what happens to all the other LSs that could be actually doing Dynamis in that time slot.

And I still don't like it, if instancing is too much for SE to implement then things should remain the same as they are now. Also, having a bunch of players reserving Dynamis just to block everyone else wouldn't be a rare occurrence either.

[Murphie]

Well, there's not really anything stopping people from abusing the system currently in place, but at least on Bahamut, that doesn't really happen. While I'm sure some LS's would try and take advantage, I'm willing to bet that most would play by the rules.

[Aeni]

thousands is a big overestimation.

I'd can name only about 8 active dynamis linkshells on my server at this time, and allowing for EU and JP linkshells I can't see; I'd estimate the number of active linkshells to be about double that. 16 - then there is usually 1 or 2 linkshells per primetime that are just getting started and will scrub out in a month, so 18ish total.

so you're looking at communication lines between 18 people, spread out over 7 days. (the issue comes up in that approximately half of these shells run on saturday and the other half on sunday, except for the one odd shell who does monday/thursday or tuesday/friday etc) but even split down the middle on a weekend, you have 10 dynamis zones to run - so you could still *ALL* go at the same time.

I'm on Hades and I know your estimate is FAR FAR low. In fact, I'm still pearled into a JP LS that has members active in Dynamis. Even amongst the JP community, there is disagreement in how Dynamis is being scheduled and just recently, an AU/NZ community was expressing interest in forming a Dynamis LS which would *step* on JP time (A few KOR players are also trying to get something)

Right now the reason why there aren't MORE *active* Dynamis LS on Hades is simply that it's not worth it. Forming one will almost always cause issues with scheduling. It is therefore far easier to attempt to get into an existing one than form a new one, but I bet you a million dollars that given the opportunity to do so, MANY will form overnight if SE puts in the Instanced Dynamis idea into play.

[Raydeus]

Well, there's not really anything stopping people from abusing the system currently in place, but at least on Bahamut, that doesn't really happen. While I'm sure some LS's would try and take advantage, I'm willing to bet that most would play by the rules.

1 million gil for 1 hour reservation Dynamis is ok, zero gil for 3 1/2 hours reservation is not, and even with the glass being a requirement it's still too much of waste of time to be worth it.

[Murphie]

Well, that's subjective.

[Amele]

I'm on Hades and I know your estimate is FAR FAR low. In fact, I'm still pearled into a JP LS that has members active in Dynamis. Even amongst the JP community, there is disagreement in how Dynamis is being scheduled and just recently, an AU/NZ community was expressing interest in forming a Dynamis LS which would *step* on JP time (A few KOR players are also trying to get something)
Right now the reason why there aren't MORE *active* Dynamis LS on Hades is simply that it's not worth it. Forming one will almost always cause issues with scheduling. It is therefore far easier to attempt to get into an existing one than form a new one, but I bet you a million dollars that given the opportunity to do so, MANY will form overnight if SE puts in the Instanced Dynamis idea into play.

is it really though?

I mean: how many active NA linkshells are there? DD, BMO, AS, DI, HB, GreenerGrass, GH, Cadecus, Hybrid, Aristocrats, Intrepid - am I missing any?

of those, GreenerGrass is less than three months old, and GH, hybrid, and Cadecus can't be much older than 3 months since I know I don't remember them running pre-marchish.

so that's 8 primary shells with 3 shells that are 'new' and maybe won't last, so I'm one shell low in my estimate. (I'm probably forgetting one or two, so I'll give you 3 shells - I am *not* counting hnmls who only do dynamis once in a blue moon and otherwise just have members going in other shells)

and as far as I know, the NA side *still* doesn't have any shells that run M or F, so there's room for a good six or seven more shells on our end if people stay out of the weekend time slots.

speaking for JP; last time I checked a JP calendar it was about the same number of recognizable groups, with ~3-4 scrub shells, just like us. what the japanese are concerned about is that the logical EU start times would have end times running into their logical start times - which is a HUGE hassle but not the same as being overcrowded (and reservations would actually exacerbate this issue since it's rare for shells to max time farm - especially the new scrubby shells that people are worried about in the current system.)

so I guess I could give you 24 instead of my 18-20 but that's hardly 'FAR FAR low'.



the other issue with reservations is: When was the last time any of you saw a linkshell actually enter the area immediately on their start time? I know my shell is notorious for late starts (BMO) but none of the others I've been is was particularly good at it either.

[Kirsteena]

I guess this is where Bahamut's large JP population comes into play - I think I worked out in a week, over 40 different shells do dynamis on our server - do that twice a week and you need that scheduling. But apart from a few minor hiccups every now and then it all works very well.

For once, we are drama free in something!

[Amele]

bahamut drama free? lies and slander!

that's like midgard actually keeping the candesence for more than two weeks.

[Aeni]

is it really though?

I mean: how many active NA linkshells are there? DD, BMO, AS, DI, HB, GreenerGrass, GH, Cadecus, Hybrid, Aristocrats, Intrepid - am I missing any?

There's at least 3 your missing from that list, I will have to go look it up. One is running purely based on CST participation (Will have to check in on my former Sky LS for that info)

speaking for JP; last time I checked a JP calendar it was about the same number of recognizable groups, with ~3-4 scrub shells, just like us.

What calendar? AFAIK, there was no official community sponsored events calendar for Hades (Not counting that informal one on Yahoo JP) I did see a few like Siren, Quetzlcoatl (sp?) and Titan.

what the japanese are concerned about is that the logical EU start times would have end times running into their logical start times - which is a HUGE hassle but not the same as being overcrowded (and reservations would actually exacerbate this issue since it's rare for shells to max time farm - especially the new scrubby shells that people are worried about in the current system.)

Right now you have 2 sections of Asian "start" times. One begins early Oceania (This includes the players from NZ, AU and the Phillipines as well) and the other starts a few hours, which is based on the southeast asian regions (Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam ... many FFXI import players from that area)

We're not including our friends in Hong Kong, Taiwan and of course China ... they should also be added in here (Korea/Japan)

In this sense, your assumptions are fairly off mostly because (a) you are only using visual data, "what you see" and (b) you don't have any reliable source from the internet as well.

I'm not making any assumptions. Most of the concerns I have heard come from long time "JP" players (Some of them are Koreans whom I have made friends before my year long hiatus) What they see is what I'm talking about here ... a plethora of level 75 players with no other time sink besides meriting. Sky is so "last year" and aside from a couple of items, do not hold any interest for anyone outside of the "newbies" and RMT.

Let's not forget the Americans in Alaska, Hawaii and Guam. Small contingent, but far from "non-existent" ;)

so I guess I could give you 24 instead of my 18-20 but that's hardly 'FAR FAR low'.

It's more around 30 with upwards of a potential 30 more with "on the fence" LS looking to move on to Dynamis status.

[Amele]

There's at least 3 your missing from that list, I will have to go look it up. One is running purely based on CST participation (Will have to check in on my former Sky LS for that info)

CST participation shell is fairly new then; since when I last went shopping the only NA shells were either EST or PST based.

What calendar? AFAIK, there was no official community sponsored events calendar for Hades (Not counting that informal one on Yahoo JP) I did see a few like Siren, Quetzlcoatl (sp?) and Titan.

http://g-shell.net/sche/sche32.cgi this is the one that BMO and DD also post to, since we overlap slightly with the early start JPN shells on weekends.

currently there's about 25 shells that use this - of these, approximately 6 are less than 3 months old (ok, so I'm low on the number of scrub shells that exist on hades. - looks like I agree that there's 30 active shells currently) I predict of these 30, 10 will be dead in the next 4 months.


obv. there's not 100% participation on this or dynamis-calendar; but afaik all the major asia time shells post here. (that is, I don't know of any asia time shells that don't post here, and before you dismiss that as me not knowing who's running during JPN times, I actually considered several of them before deciding on a late night EST shell, so I did my homework.)

Right now you have 2 sections of Asian "start" times. One begins early Oceania (This includes the players from NZ, AU and the Phillipines as well) most of the AU players I know who run dynamis either do it with a JPN prime time shell (1800-2200 start JPN time) or a PST based english shell.
and the other starts a few hours, which is based on the southeast asian regions (Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam ... many FFXI import players from that area)
We're not including our friends in Hong Kong, Taiwan and of course China ... they should also be added in here (Korea/Japan)

again, in my experience these players gravitate toward shells that are in JPN prime time. when an event is 3-4 hours long, you don't mind shifting schedule slightly to accommodate: this is why 90% of the NA primetime shells are either EST or PST based.

In this sense, your assumptions are fairly off mostly because (a) you are only using visual data, "what you see" and (b) you don't have any reliable source from the internet as well.

so because my assumptions (backed up by two calendars) are in disagreement with yours, my assumptions are off? where's your 'reliable source' for 30 serious shells?

I'm not making any assumptions. burden of proof then, I guess. I still don't see where you get 30 more potential shells from either way.

Most of the concerns I have heard come from long time "JP" players (Some of them are Koreans whom I have made friends before my year long hiatus) What they see is what I'm talking about here ... a plethora of level 75 players with no other time sink besides meriting. Sky is so "last year" and aside from a couple of items, do not hold any interest for anyone outside of the "newbies" and RMT.

kings, salvage, einherjar, sea, - dynamis is so last year too except for that small handful of items for each job that are actually unique. same story as sky, basically.

Let's not forget the Americans in Alaska, Hawaii and Guam. Small contingent, but far from "non-existent" ;) while I don't know of any players from guam, to a person everyone I know in alaska and hawaii runs with a PST shell.

It's more around 30 with upwards of a potential 30 more with "on the fence" LS looking to move on to Dynamis status.

as I said, I'll concede 30 active shells. we still fit just fine, considering there's 10 zones to choose from and we're spread out over a 16 hour period.

are your character info and sig up to date? if they are, I'm not sure why we're even discussing it since you can't even be active in the scene at that level...(unless the 72 dark is still active and not a retired character?)

[Aeni]

http://g-shell.net/sche/sche32.cgi this is the one that BMO and DD also post to, since we overlap slightly with the early start JPN shells on weekends.

That one did not exist when I was active at the time. Back when the leader in aQuarium had asked if there were any of us looking to do Dynamis, that they would be forming one, but some of the members were saying that there were two others that were planning to do at roughly the same time they wanted to (This would be about 3AM PST~5AM PST on a TBD weeknight)

but afaik all the major asia time shells post here.

None of them are beyond JST time zone. I do know there are at least 6 major HNM shells that sit towards EU "start" time and that one is run by someone who said he's currently working in Qatar (middle east)

most of the AU players I know who[quote]

You know a lot? I'm being serious here. If you say 10 is a lot, you're wrong.

[quote]again, in my experience these players gravitate toward shells that are in JPN prime time. when an event is 3-4 hours long, you don't mind shifting schedule slightly to accommodate: this is why 90% of the NA primetime shells are either EST or PST based.

And this is the problem with the current scheduling.

You cannot assume that a group will start on time. NO ONE IS PERFECT. I have yet to find anyone who actually started on TEE. Yet looking at those posted scheduls they are stacking on each other with barely room for delays (i.e. server disconnects, people coming home late from work due to traffic, etc.)

Also, I was in one Dynamis shell and the leader, LordKaija I believe, didn't even schedule runs on any system. Maybe that has changed since.

while I don't know of any players from guam, to a person everyone I know in alaska and hawaii runs with a PST shell.

I'm from Hawaii :) And I know for a fact you're assuming here that everyone is running with a PST shell when that assumption is not correct. (Some of us choose JP because PST run too early ~ 6pm PST starting time is 4PM Alaska/3PM in Hawaii/Noon Guam -- however JP start at 11PM Alaska/10PM Hawaii/7PM Guam)

are your character info and sig up to date? if they are, I'm not sure why we're even discussing it since you can't even be active in the scene at that level...(unless the 72 dark is still active and not a retired character?)

Like I said, I have not been active in nearly a year. Also, I have had two other accounts, although not mine, I have done a lot of end-game content with LS and friends.

[Amele]

None of them are beyond JST time zone. I do know there are at least 6 major HNM shells that sit towards EU "start" time and that one is run by someone who said he's currently working in Qatar (middle east)

EU 'start' is on the other side of JST from NA though.. so I'm not sure how this is an issue beyond late starts, and in any case, JST and PST were able to work things out and the gap between JST and GMT isn't too different.

You know a lot? I'm being serious here. If you say 10 is a lot, you're wrong.

coming from HI, you know more :) I know about 15, and I don't know the ones who run in JST prime - but the general point probably still stands, there's not exactly alot of activity sitting on the AUS time zone.

And this is the problem with the current scheduling.
You cannot assume that a group will start on time. NO ONE IS PERFECT. I have yet to find anyone who actually started on TEE. Yet looking at those posted scheduls they are stacking on each other with barely room for delays (i.e. server disconnects, people coming home late from work due to traffic, etc.)

This is actually a better argument against mandatory scheduling, since entry windows can't shift a half hour that way - also, if no one enters on time then it doesn't matter if you're running late (within a reasonable average) because the group after you will be running late too. - this is sort of built into the calendar concept both at dynamis-calendar and at g-shell.

Also, I was in one Dynamis shell and the leader, LordKaija I believe, didn't even schedule runs on any system. Maybe that has changed since.

how long had the shell been around? most people don't start using a major calendar until another shell in their time slot suggests they do.

I'm from Hawaii :) And I know for a fact you're assuming here that everyone is running with a PST shell when that assumption is not correct. (Some of us choose JP because PST run too early ~ 6pm PST starting time is 4PM Alaska/3PM in Hawaii/Noon Guam -- however JP start at 11PM Alaska/10PM Hawaii/7PM Guam)

nice to meet you :) Wisconsin here: I'm jealous of your ocean view - and thanks for the info, are there any shells that are based in HST? I've a friend who would probably join if there are.

Like I said, I have not been active in nearly a year. Also, I have had two other accounts, although not mine, I have done a lot of end-game content with LS and friends.

it's settled down alot in the past year. a year ago the dynamis-calendar wasn't heavily adopted on hades. (DD, DI, HB, and Exc were scheduling among themselves, but most of the other LS's active at the time weren't privy to all of their schedules. I believe DD and DI were posting on the calendar though.) and the active JP calendar was.. a joke, since the site was down half the time. - since then it's gotten better for both JST and EST/PST. give it another 6 months and I think that GMT will have it worked out too.

but regardless, the level of saturation is alot lower than this thread makes it out to be (how often does anyone in here, -really- get bumped? I'm honestly curious)

BMO runs on solid primetime saturday and wednesday and we've been bumped less than three times in the last calendar year. I actually have more issues with limbus than dynamis (and the price drop didn't help.. lol)