why so many WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations?

[Kisshu]

With the introduction of the two new abjuration sets, the number of WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations has been increased.
Previously those jobs had three abjuration sets each to choose from, BST/BRD/DRG had two sets and all the other jobs only had one set to choose from.

Of all the melee jobs, WAR/PLD/DRK already dominated the abjuration selection, yet with the introduction of Einherjar they were given yet another set to a total of four while alot of melee still only have and one job, PUP, do not have a single set.

Why did you decide to make a new abjuration for WAR/PLD/DRK instead of one for more neglated jobs?

Edit: Forgot BLU had Wyrmal set

[Sevv]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Crimson_Armor_Set

there is blue

only pup fails

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

With the introduction of the two new abjuration sets, the number of WAR/PLD/DRK abjurations has been increased.
Previously those jobs had three abjuration sets each to choose from, BST/BRD/DRG had two sets and all the other jobs only had one set to choose from.

Of all the melee jobs, WAR/PLD/DRK already dominated the abjuration selection, yet with the introduction of Einherjar they were given yet another set to a total of four while alot of melee still only have and two jobs, BLU/PUP, do not have a single set.

BLU has access to Wyrmal set.

[Malacite]

I'd like to see DRG get it's well-deserved spot among the hauberk sets (and haubergeon) but it ain't gonna happen... SE seems dead-set on not allowing DRG to wear all the heavy armors it used to ; ; (in past games I mean)

[Sevv]

i beat ya bbq.


Ok but to the issue at hand, yes their is some jobs who could use a ramp up on abj.

But seriously what abj. can you add that will be good for brd but you can tack on other jobs to? Brd is already good enough without a fix. Yigit Body, Sha'ir and Zenith is very nice on a brd.

Bst again, they get some very very nice abj. heca and adaman is a good set to have access to. Abj. for beast with solo abilites again you lose the ability to make it outside jse.

Drg has heca and its amazing for Ws, we get heca amazing for tp.

Pup is the only job in need of a abj. set, Personally i wouldnt mind seeing them on shura.

[Aeni]

Well ... when you think about it, not very many classes can really use what those 3 can and then vice versa.

You have multitudes of drops for casters and other melees. Notice that those kinds of drops have more than just a couple of classes that can use them.

Some classes can perform at a high level with mediocre gear (i.e., BLMs & BRDs)

Some classes are already innately powerful that adding additional gear upgrades would pose balance issues (i.e., SAMs)

One of my mains is a DRK, so I can understand why SE has done this. DRKs face a dearth of upgrade options and the abjuration pieces needed to create it for them are usually given to other classes that can also make use of it first (priorities within the Linkshell)

Given the multitude of "other" jobs within a guild framework, you can see that there might've been complaints by those players over this.

WARs and PLDs just naturally benefit from this, because they are the "plate" classes or the jobs that can make use of heavy armor (Even if there is no such distinction made within the system with regards to this, it is a commonly accepted understanding) So if any move was made to help out a certain job class, the related parties involved (PLDs/WARs) get the side benefit as bonus.

All IMO of course...

[seq]

the problem as i see it is that they keep giving DD equip the the jobs that have no problem DDing, neglecting DRG,THF and PUP as if this jobs have special damage formulas that doesn't require attack bonus stats..
you should have noted that WAR have access to gods's gear, which is eastern gear... so heavy armor or not...the development team never cared (hey Ares's set) why should they now?

[Lmnop]

My thoughts on the new war/pld/drk set is that they're for a more hybrid PLD. Pure DD-wise, they're nothing spectacular. But for a meat tank who wants to contribute to the party damage pool, it's pretty decent or... something. Still though, they made the new abjurations on a power level of the old stuff, which isn't nearly good enough to be considered incredible. Basically, Koenig is becoming quite useless, so they wanted to give PLD something decent.

And Wyrmal is worse than not having any Abj gear whatsoever -- because whenever you complain about it, people will say "nuh uh! you can wear crimson!" which is, of course, a complete joke.

All the same, I'd very much like to see a cursed Jerkin sort of set. Especially when you think of that Feral Jerkin that looks pretty cool but never gets worn... you could make a cursed set look pretty cool (or it could just be AJ in hot pink).

[Sevv]

Hmm crimson is a joke:


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/8/87/Crimson_Finger_Gauntlets.png

No rng or cor would ever use these, bunch of junk amirite? Macro piece fo dark magic cast nah wouldn't want to uses there.


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/9/93/Crimson_cuisses.png
These would never help on pulling or kiting complete junk.

Yup crimson gear blows!

[Lmnop]

I stand corrected... the legs are swell.

I'm no ranged combatant, but the hands have alternatives, right? Really, all five pieces are good, but - with the exception of +movement speed - the all have non-cursed alternatives that are at least as good. Probably a lot cheaper, and none compare with Adaman Hauberk.

You were a DRG first. Let's say someone told you that RNG were gimp because they could only wear one set of cursed gear and that you as a DRG were not -- on the basis that you could equip the same set as them AND a rediculous WS set. Would you say their argument was justified? When they got a sweet pair of hand gear out of it while you got umm.... dex/agi+3?

Yes, the fact that BLU can wear Crimson is a joke. (Not that that bothers me, being that they're the only job that can equip homam and nashira. -- both sets being better than Cursed anything 9/10.)

And do I really have to bicker with you in every thread these days, Sev? You know very well that Crimson wasn't the aim of my previous post, nor this thread at all.

[Aeni]

you should have noted that WAR have access to gods's gear, which is eastern gear... so heavy armor or not...the development team never cared (hey Ares's set) why should they now?

My response to this is ... why not? Remember, warrior's are masters of weapon proficiency as well as armor proficiency. They better damn well be able to equip whatever they feel like! It's in S-E's own job class description.

[Malacite]

I still would like to see DRG added to the list of 'hauberk' jobs. I'm sick of the whole "they have a pet so we have to town them down" mentality SE seems to carry.

I just want the DRG of old that I loved oh so dearly in FFIV and V... (IV more so, and not just because Kain ruled)

[Vyuru]

Well, drg does get a good set of endgame gear, Ares, but it is rather hard to obtain, nothing wrong with that though.

And really, Hecatomb is a joke, a bloody joke, especially compared to the stuff that war/drk/sam get.

On the one hand I agree I'd like to see dragoon be able to wear the plate/hauberk line of gear, on the other hand, I look at a melee job with:

No access to what many players consider the best DD gear (Hauberk, RK, etc)
The fewest DD traits
Something else and now I've forgotten it >.>

And I have to admit, they keep up pretty well with the other DD, especially since rdm for instance get to wear all of our exp gear, well most of it.

So for a job that wears combat mage armor we do pretty good.

And actually, instead of gaining access to heavy armor, I think I would favor access to the light sam/nin/mnk line of equipment.

No it's not exactly *SandO'rian approved* but you see a ton of Sandy NPCs wearing it and using drg only lances, so from a storyline aspect I don't see why not. From an equipment aspect, it's lighter than Plate armor, most of it is not as good as the heavy plate armor.

Furthermore alot of it is +att/acc gear, and just what has SE been giving us all this time?

So yeah, I wouldn't mind if the Kenpogi/Kote/Hachiman/Kabuto/Sun-ate and the rest of that line of gear available for drg.

[Tipsy]

Want some cheese with that whine?


Dragoon cannot wear Haubergeon because it is not purple.

And...



And really, Hecatomb is a joke, a bloody joke, especially compared to the stuff that war/drk/sam get.

Hecatomb a joke? That just might be the most stupid, naive, statement I've ever read.

WAR/DRK/SAM wear Hecatomb, Adaman gear is nothing special.

Shura is nice. Not for DRG. Medieval warriors do not run around in loin cloth.

[Grizzlebeard]

Want some cheese with that whine?

Before posting stupid shit like this read the posting guidelines (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/site-news/announcements.html).

Dragoon cannot wear Haubergeon because it is not purple.

I'm not sure if this was just a poor attempt at a joke, it's hard to tell taking the rest of your post into account.

Hecatomb a joke? That just might be the most stupid, naive, statement I've ever read.

Again, posting guidelines.

Medieval warriors do not run around in loin cloth.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here seriously. I just hope you're not trying to use RL examples to support equipment decisions in a fantasy MMOG.

[Feba]

Dragoon cannot wear Haubergeon because it is not purple.

If that was a joke, you should just be deadly serious from now on.

Medieval warriors do not run around in loin cloth.
Medieval warriors do not get swallowed by a pillar of flames and shrug it off either. Nor do they have to wait for a blue gauge to fill up to use their most powerful attacks, and nor do said powerful attacks, when combined, do extra damage to the opponent. Don't even get me started on medieval warriors not exploring other dimensions...

[seq]

My response to this is ... why not? Remember, warrior's are masters of weapon proficiency as well as armor proficiency. They better damn well be able to equip whatever they feel like! It's in S-E's own job class description.
because:
1) WAR can't equip any other easter gear set.
2) it isn't just WAR, RNG and *Cough*BST*Cough*.

and heca is a complete joke, alot of work for what? a WS swap gear? for the time spent getting it, and the competition on loting it off the other jobs that want it too it's a complete joke.

[Lmnop]

I thought the purple haub joke was kinda funny >.> Kinda an odd thing to attack him about.

<.< And SAM can't equip Heca.

[nickofearth]

My thoughts on the new war/pld/drk set is that they're for a more hybrid PLD. Pure DD-wise, they're nothing spectacular. But for a meat tank who wants to contribute to the party damage pool, it's pretty decent or... something. Still though, they made the new abjurations on a power level of the old stuff, which isn't nearly good enough to be considered incredible. Basically, Koenig is becoming quite useless, so they wanted to give PLD something decent.
And Wyrmal is worse than not having any Abj gear whatsoever -- because whenever you complain about it, people will say "nuh uh! you can wear crimson!" which is, of course, a complete joke.
All the same, I'd very much like to see a cursed Jerkin sort of set. Especially when you think of that Feral Jerkin that looks pretty cool but never gets worn... you could make a cursed set look pretty cool (or it could just be AJ in hot pink).

Paladin gets Homam too. That and Wyrmal is pretty sex depending on your job. The Body would be good for RDM (better then errant (shudder), both RDM and PLD can use the pants for kiting. If you don't got anything else DRG can use the boots decently to solo in for the better def then hecat/amir and the bonus to HP and MP. But ya, nothing really DD about it outside of RNG/COR and the gloves (i use them for drain and aspir on RDM).

I'd like to see DRG get it's well-deserved spot among the hauberk sets (and haubergeon) but it ain't gonna happen... SE seems dead-set on not allowing DRG to wear all the heavy armors it used to ; ; (in past games I mean)


Amen! I want Adaberk! I never actually understood the hauby line. Why can't we wear it? Because we gotta jump over tall buildings? Then why do NINs get hauby? Don't they have to be quick and stealthy to avoid being hit? SE... j00 got some 'splanin' to do.. -.-;

((Dragoon
-SpecialAttack: "jump" When the Dragoon jumps, she jumps so high that he will be missing from action for one turn. Nothing can hit her while she is in the air. With this attack, she will never miss, even those enemies with the highest agility, and if (and only if) she is equipping a spear, the damage done to the enemy when she lands on it will be double that of a regular, land based attack.
-ClassAbility: none
-Armor: heavy <---- ZOMG
-Weapons: spears, knives
---Description: Although her defense ranks with that of the Knight, her attack power is consistently slightly lower than the Knight. Her jump attack, especially when battling dangerous bosses, more than makes up for such weaknesses though. Not only does it double the attack power, but it is also the ultimate form of defense, since no attack can reach the Dragoon in the sky. Also, the jump attack's strength isn't affected by whether the Dragoon is in the front or back row, so if you find yourself consistently jumping in battle, you can put the Dragoon in the back row and half any damage that befalls upon her. However, when she is in the air, no beneficial things (potions, healing magic) may reach her either.))

Drg has heca and its amazing for Ws, we get heca amazing for tp.

Hoping you mean Homam to TP ^^

Want some cheese with that whine?
Dragoon cannot wear Haubergeon because it is not purple.
And...
Hecatomb a joke? That just might be the most stupid, naive, statement I've ever read.
WAR/DRK/SAM wear Hecatomb, Adaman gear is nothing special.
Shura is nice. Not for DRG. Medieval warriors do not run around in loin cloth.

Don't quit your day job. >.>

[Vyuru]

I thought the purple haub joke was kinda funny >.> Kinda an odd thing to attack him about.


While I wouldn't attack him over it, but I'd point out that our Relic armor is blue, and the Adaman line has blue in it :P

And really, I'd be surprised if any dragoon would want a Hecatomb piece other than just for looks, the new Ares set far outstrips it in ability AND it has no +43% slow on it. You get to melee and WS in it, win win ^^

Now, my earlier post was dealing strictly with dragoon, but getting back to the original topic:

How many of these neglected jobs really need something new?

It's been awhile since I last looked at the armor for various jobs, so I may be a little off.

Pld and Drg can wear Ares and Askir armor sets, for pseudo tank/DD/support, these really look like the best gear out there.

Whm for example, has a plethora of AF+1/relic/crafted gear that gives them all sorts of nifty boosts, as does Blm, and I'm not too clear on Smn and Rdm, it is my impression that they do as well.

And just in general, there is alot of good gear out there that you could mix and match to get a gear setup that is pretty good. For example, I may not like every single piece of the Askar set, but the Askar Korazin certainly has my attention.

And then player preference plays a large role in this as well. The Dragoon Relic armor has little attraction for me beyond the Wyrm Armet, AF+1 however holds huge appeal to me. I would much rather wear, Drachen Finger Gauntlets +1, then say, Alkyoneus's Bracelets, but my personal preference is to wear gear that gives me stat boosts, my wyvern stat boosts, and enhances my job abilities.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that this is the case for most, if not all of the jobs.

[Tipsy]

xD you guys are so funny lol

alot of the game's dynamics (jobs, armor names, styles, god names, etc) are based off rl/history. though the gameplay, of course is not, alot of aspects are ;)


Before posting stupid shit like this read the posting guidelines.
lol ok mr. mod

[Karinya]

In about 2005, it would have been right to complain that DRG didn't have enough endgame armor choices. But now they have the following endgame full sets: drachen+1, wyrm, homam, askar, ares, hecatomb, crimson, amir, pahluwan. And that's not counting non-ex sets like barone, or non-set pieces (assault jerkin, ace's helm, galliard trousers, tarrasque mitts). DRG is the *only* job that can use both Assault melee sets.

If you can't find at least a couple good TP pieces and a couple good WS pieces for each slot in that many sets, you're not really trying. If you don't like the abj pieces, do more Limbus, Salvage or Assault (regular and Nyzul). There's more than one way to get high level gear, and has been for several years now.

[Vyuru]

In about 2005, it would have been right to complain that DRG didn't have enough endgame armor choices.

Agreed, but I think the OP's original topic was more towards say, bst, thf, sam/nin/mnk and some of the mage jobs who I can't think of anything really good besides AF+1, which for alot of jobs isn't bad at all.

I think some mage jobs get use out of the Salvage gears, but I'm not sure how it stacks up with other gear choices and which jobs find which gear the most useful. I don't really know how the sam/nin/mnk gear stacks up to their other choices either.

And I thought that the prior drg comments about heavy armors was more towards mid game gear, such as Royal Knight's armor, Hauby, stuff like that. Which, yeah, we got the Peti line of gear, but a little more options would be nice. I'd really like say, RK breeches until I get my AF legs, maybe I'd still wear 'em.

Endgame gears though we have plenty to choose from as you say. I didn't know about the Galliaard trousers, those are kinda interesting.

[Malacite]

Just give DRG the freaking Haubergeon already (maybe Thick gear too?) and I'll be happy with that.

If freaking NINJA can wear a haubergeon, there's no reason DRG can't.

[seq]

In about 2005, it would have been right to complain that DRG didn't have enough endgame armor choices. But now they have the following endgame full sets: drachen+1, wyrm, homam, askar, ares, hecatomb, crimson, amir, pahluwan. And that's not counting non-ex sets like barone, or non-set pieces (assault jerkin, ace's helm, galliard trousers, tarrasque mitts). DRG is the *only* job that can use both Assault melee sets.
you are right, but this sets are not as easy to get as say buying a haubergeon off the AH? killing a Lv40 NM (Fuma kyahan/o.kote's R/EXs)? Brown belt(hey, i didn't say black belt ^^)?
it isn't about how easy to get only, but the level you get them at.. currently DRG is fine at 70+ but pre70 gear options suck.

Haubergeon's STR/DEX+5 Attack/Accuracy+10 beats homam body yet the effort on getting homam is greater..

[Lmnop]

-I'd rather see DRG get access to Byrnie than Haub (Byrnie's a dead piece of equipment which makes me /sad. Also, DRG can take the dex penalty/lack of +10 acc better than most DD jobs).

-this game has enough equipment as is. In fact, look at Karinya's list. All that incredible shit of gear a DRG can wear, and honestly, I think the best DRG would still be the one with 5/5 Homam. It's actually kinda a waste that it's so good -- hard for some of the other nifty stuff to have a place in today's world. Especially when the effort involved in getting say... askar head is actually more than the effort for a lot of people to get Homam stuff (if still less time consuming).

The only gear I think I'd really like to see is stuff to enhance some of the new aspects of the game. And by this I mean things that enhance job abilities/traits of the 3 new jobs and especially the new Samurai abilities. Nothing that enhances Seigan or Hasso, which I'd quite like to see.

-Btw, Homam body is +2.5% triple attack? You do realize that's the equivalent in strength to Brutal Earring, right? That in addition to acc+15... I don't see how that's topped by Haub stats for a DRG. (Unless you're one of those rare level 75 Sushi addicts).

[Vyuru]

I think I agree with Lmnop, Byrnie looks more attractive to the two handed weapon users with it's +20 att.

Interesting, Shadow Breastplate looks like it has almost exactly the same stats as a Byrnie.

I'd also like to point out that +12% haste is a bit better than Hasso's +10% haste, and believe you me, I feel like I'm swinging a scythe now whenever I sub something other than samurai on drg, it makes a surprising difference.

As a haste/acc setup I think Homam is great, but between that and the other +att/str/acc gears like Askir/Ares/Assault stuff, I find it hard to decide which would be the better setup for my dragoon.

And 2.5% triple attack, while low, is still pretty nifty.

[seq]

-Btw, Homam body is +2.5% triple attack? You do realize that's the equivalent in strength to Brutal Earring, right? That in addition to acc+15... I don't see how that's topped by Haub stats for a DRG. (Unless you're one of those rare level 75 Sushi addicts).
no, actually brutal's 5% double attack have more chances than homam's 2.5% triple attack so it isn't that good (Triple's 5% on my THF is rare enough).
you don't see how Acc/attack+12.5 STR/DEX+5 is better than Acc+15 Triple attack+2.5%..?

[Vyuru]

Well, I think you have to ask, how much damage will 10att and str/dex+5 contribute over the long run, when compared to when Triple Attack goes off?

Let's say you do 100 damage per swing and gain 13tp per swing. When TA goes off, you do 300 damage and have 39tp. I might take that chance over the hauby's stats, since it could always activate during a jump or WS.

[Kirsteena]

WAR/DRK/SAM wear Hecatomb, Adaman gear is nothing special.

Er - since when did sam get to wear Heca?

And no, this isn't special at all...

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Adaman_Hauberk

[Lmnop]

no, actually brutal's 5% double attack have more chances than homam's 2.5% triple attack so it isn't that good (Triple's 5% on my THF is rare enough).



Ummm. They both give 5% more attacks. That means they're the same.

If you attack 100 times, 2.5% 3A will turn that into 105. 5% 2A will turn that into 105 as well.

you don't see how Acc/attack+12.5 STR/DEX+5 is better than Acc+15 Triple attack+2.5%..?

No.

[KoukiRyu]

While small, I'd think the HP/MP+ on Homam would be great for a DRG/Mage, and then you're not even considering the fact that Haub has -stats...that would hurt you while solo'ing anyway. I don't see how you can think that Homam < Haub, at all. Especially if you're comparing it with DRG.

And also, don't even say that you can just macro it in for a ws, that's what you can already do with Heca. ^^

[seq]

Ummm. They both give 5% more attacks. That means they're the same.

If you attack 100 times, 2.5% 3A will turn that into 105. 5% 2A will turn that into 105 as well.

no they are not ^^, a 5% chance to DA is going to procs more often than the too low to be counted on homam's 2.5% rate.
while playing THF, i can tell you TA kicks in 2 WSs every 2 hours >_>, that's with double homam's TA rate too.

[IfritnoItazura]

no they are not ^^, a 5% chance to DA is going to procs more often than the too low to be counted on homam's 2.5% rate.
while playing THF, i can tell you TA kicks in 2 WSs every 2 hours >_>, that's with double homam's TA rate too.

If you're saying either the 5% or the 2.5% figure is inaccurate, you should be more clear. Otherwise, one may have to question if you know what "%" means...

Double Attack = 1 extra attack.
1 extra attack * 5% = 5% extra attacks

Triple Attack = 2 extra attacks.
2 extra attack * 2.5% = 5% extra attacks

[Malacite]

Haub would be such a major help to DRG though for the trip to 75.

If nothing else, it simply just deserves to be able to use it regardless of how beneficial it may be over other options...

The truth is SE is gimping DRG's options somewhat from past FF's purely because it has a pet now and they don't want to make the DRG "all that" just on it's own and I hate that.

It's crap like that makes me wish SE had just focused more on jumps and forgone the wyvern entirely, much as I love the cute little guy <( ; _ ; )>

Other than the pet, there is *no* good arguement for the job not to have access to it, especially when Ninja shouldn't.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

It's crap like that makes me wish SE had just focused more on jumps and forgone the wyvern entirely, much as I love the cute little guy <( ; _ ; )>

Other than the pet, there is *no* good arguement for the job not to have access to it, especially when Ninja shouldn't.
But if SE had gone that route, DRG wouldn't be able solo any better than most of the other DD jobs. If you want a powerful party DD job that lacks solo capability, there are plenty to choose from.

The only real problem DRG suffers from is an inaccurate public image. Two and a half years ago, WAR suffered from the same problem. WAR was viewed as a mediocre DD with mediocre tank capabilities. Today, it's viewed as a top DD job. What changed during those 2 years? It wasn't the job itself. It wasn't even the preferred DD subjobs (the only one to really change is SAM, and it's still seen as an offbeat DD sub). Pieces of wonderful DD gear has been added here and there that WARs can use, but that's true of DRG and other DD jobs. The only thing that has really changed with WAR is how people view the job.

What would have happened if SE had tweaked WAR several years ago due to the poor reputation it had among the player base? We'd have a real problem on our hands today (that's if you don't already think WAR is over powered as it is).

One last note about DRG and Haubergeon: DRG natively gets both attack bonus (+10 attack) and accuracy bonus (+10 acc) job traits. None of the jobs capable of wearing Haubergeon have that luxury. For any of them to have both, they would have to sub either DRG or RNG. NIN has neither job trait natively.

Given the applicable job traits:
NIN/WAR + Hauby + Life Belt = +22.5 attack, +22.5 acc
DRG/anything + Assault Jerkin + Life Belt = +28 attack, +23 acc
DRG/anything + SH + Swordbelt +1 = +22 attack, +20 acc

Yes, I ignored the 5 STR and 5 DEX from Hauby, though their impact to attack and accuracy have been noted. Just the impact of 5 STR and 5 DEX shouldn't be enough to "gimp" DRG.

[Malacite]

One last note about DRG and Haubergeon: DRG natively gets both attack bonus (+10 attack) and accuracy bonus (+10 acc) job traits. None of the jobs capable of wearing Haubergeon have that luxury. For any of them to have both, they would have to sub either DRG or RNG. NIN has neither job trait natively.



That argument is BS. Complete god damned BS, and here's why:

WAR: Already gets Double Attack, Berserk and Aggressor, so it can gain a multitude of other benefits from sub jobs without sacrificing any of this. WAR is the last job on the list that "needs" it, but deserves it purely because it is intended to be the master of arms.

SAM: SAM is pretty damned gear dependent I'll admit, but it does have Hasso now for a good boost to STR Accuracy and Haste. SAM is probably one of the only jobs on the list that actually needs this.

NIN: No passive job traits for attack or accuracy to speak of, but NIN is already borderline broken as it is. A job like NIN shouldn't even be able to wear such a heavy body armor in the first place (which is what pisses me off about DRG not having it; it should be the other way around)

BST: I'm still not entirely sure why SE gave BST the option to wear the big hauberk types instead of PLD or DRG, but BST takes so much crap from SE I'm not going to argue it.

DRK: Four passive attack up traits, Absorb Spells and Two A-class weapons to use (granted their both two handed). No, DRK sure as hell does not need the Haub but it rightly gets to wear it as it's one of the 3 "knight" classes.

PLD: No DD traits to speak of, but like DRK it's a heavy armored knight and as such deserves the Haub.


So DRG gets +10 accuracy and attack. Big deal. It doesn't make a large enough impact like the abilities that the other jobs get to warrant getting screwed out of the haubergeon. The wyvern apparently does however, and that's what ticks me off. BST pets are arguably much stronger than the wyvern (in terms of raw damage, not utility) and yet it still gets to wear the heavy stuff. Bull crap.

Don't get the wrong idea, I love the wyvern and certainly wouldn't want to lose it for anything, but I just can't agree with SE's ideas of game balance from time to time. NIN should seriously have the same restrictions in terms of armor as THF, and yet it doesn't...


In short: SE is on crack.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

So DRG gets +10 accuracy and attack. Big deal.
If +10 acc and +10 attack at the same time isn't a big deal, why do you even care that DRG doesn't get to wear Haubergeon? After all, that's basically what Hauby has over SH and Assault Jerkin. Or is 5 STR and 5 DEX that big of a deal? Or did you just feel the need to climb up on a soapbox and rant about your favorite job?

[nickofearth]

Amen Malacite, I've always wondered wtf is wrong with SE.


If +10 acc and +10 attack at the same time isn't a big deal, why do you even care that DRG doesn't get to wear Haubergeon? After all, that's basically what Hauby has over SH and Assault Jerkin. Or is 5 STR and 5 DEX that big of a deal? Or did you just feel the need to climb up on a soapbox and rant about your favorite job?

*moves his hand over his head*

whoosh.

[IfritnoItazura]

whoosh.

Hmm. Didn't think DRG's would "whoosh" much, given native Accuracy Bonus +10 and "A+" skill rating in their primary weapon. (At least, not compared to WAR's, with no build in Accuracy Bonus and merely "A" skill in their weapon of choice.)

You must be special. =b

[seq]

If you're saying either the 5% or the 2.5% figure is inaccurate, you should be more clear. Otherwise, one may have to question if you know what "%" means...

Double Attack = 1 extra attack.
1 extra attack * 5% = 5% extra attacks

Triple Attack = 2 extra attacks.
2 extra attack * 2.5% = 5% extra attacks
the 2.5% is just too too too low to activate, as i said before.
swinging a delay:492 lance takes 8.2 seconds to swing once, so 820 seconds to swing 100 times that's 13.66 minutes.
so in 13.66 minutes you'll have a 2.5% Chance of triple attacking VS brutal's 5% chance it's true BS..
comparing it to pahl.body's ~3.5% (wiki said it's 1-5%) Critical hit rate that can be increased through merits to ~7.5% while still having Accuracy+10 (5 points less than homam, no big deal) where crits usually do double DMG?
so? homam body is overrated, and is good only for the HP/MP+28 >.>

[Karinya]

What would have happened if SE had tweaked WAR several years ago due to the poor reputation it had among the player base? We'd have a real problem on our hands today (that's if you don't already think WAR is over powered as it is).
WAR isn't overpowered. Multihit WS are overpowered against enemies weaker than the normal level of exp mobs, or when you have a lot of extra stats from merits and high-end gear making you stronger than your level alone indicates; and mobs that are weak compared to a 75 party give too much exp and are therefore hunted preferentially. This leads multihit WS, such as Rampage, to be far more powerful against merit targets than they are against, say, level 60 exp targets (both absolutely and in comparison with single-hit WS).
One last note about DRG and Haubergeon: DRG natively gets both attack bonus (+10 attack) and accuracy bonus (+10 acc) job traits. None of the jobs capable of wearing Haubergeon have that luxury. For any of them to have both, they would have to sub either DRG or RNG. NIN has neither job trait natively.
Given the applicable job traits:
NIN/WAR + Hauby + Life Belt = +22.5 attack, +22.5 acc
DRG/anything + Assault Jerkin + Life Belt = +28 attack, +23 acc
DRG/anything + SH + Swordbelt +1 = +22 attack, +20 acc
Yes, I ignored the 5 STR and 5 DEX from Hauby, though their impact to attack and accuracy have been noted. Just the impact of 5 STR and 5 DEX shouldn't be enough to "gimp" DRG.
It gets better though, because DRG can actually have a subjob too. DRG/SAM + AJ + Life Belt is +28 attack (more when you count Hasso's STR), +33 acc and 10% haste *plus* jumps, Store TP and Meditate. NIN can't begin to compare. Even if they voke constantly, plus use ninjutsu, plus the DRG's hate-reducing jumps they *still* often have trouble keeping above me on the hate list if I don't hold back. A lot. SAMs may have needed the help or they may not, but SE kinda created a monster with DRG/SAM.

When you compare it to WAR/NIN the difference is even bigger because WAR/NIN is using an A- weapon; they need hauby's att/acc just to make up for the skill difference, let alone the traits and whatever the DRG is subbing. (WAR/SAM has an A+ weapon and Hasso, but even after the SAM changes I don't see many of them around. Probably they draw too much hate to be comfortable giving up Utsusemi.)
comparing it to pahl.body's ~3.5% (wiki said it's 1-5%) Critical hit rate that can be increased through merits to ~7.5% while still having Accuracy+10 (5 points less than homam, no big deal) where crits usually do double DMG?
First of all, crit merits and your base crit rate will still work with Homam (in fact, you can crit *during* a triple attack for even more damage), so you can't really count them in favor of Pahluwan. The number of *extra* crits you'll see from Pahluwan is about the same as the number of TAs you'll see from Homam, in a given time period.

Second, and potentially more importantly, crits do extra damage but they don't give you extra TP. A TA swing (or TA jump) will return about 40 TP if you get all three hits, depending on weapon and subjob. And DRG is one of the few jobs that can get a TA with a 2-handed weapon, immediately use the TP to WS... and live even if the monster doesn't instantly die, because of hate-shedding jumps.

[Sevv]

I'm sorry but this is one of the reason i retired my drg, was thinking of bringing it back but...


Drg will never be war, no matter how much you all cry about: I want hauby/more att/Aberk/New Ablities.

Yes you cant tp in heca, but we get homam, which is great to tp in, what's wrong with homam? I don't have sea, even tho cop battles are easier now I still don't have sea And to those with sea and people before you the game is about work you have to put some in before you can just get any piece.

If you think heca is really shit then you shouldn't do sky/kings because there is nothing for you spend all your time farming get Conte Peices some Homam from sea, and get out damage by drgs who macro in heca.

It comes down to this any time any job gets any boost/new gear/etc their is always the why me card played. Your all spending too much time crying and not enough time getting any closer to V fork.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

... comparing it to pahl.body's ~3.5% (wiki said it's 1-5%) Critical hit rate that can be increased through merits to ~7.5% while still having Accuracy+10 (5 points less than homam, no big deal) where crits usually do double DMG?
so? homam body is overrated, and is good only for the HP/MP+28 >.>
A critical hit raises pDIF by 1.0 (to a max of 3.0), and the non-crit pDIF can go up to 2.4. It'll roughly double the damage if your attack is close to the mob's defense. If you're up closer to having twice as much attack as the mob's defense, it'll only raise damage by 50%, etc. Crits will probably be double damage if you're eating sushi, don't have access to Berserk, and don't have BRDs in your party to give you madrigal. If, however, you're eating meat (which a job with an A+ rating should be able to manage at most merit camps) and/or have a BRD or two in your party, the benefits from crits will start to diminish percentage wise.

Just for a moment, lets go with crits being double damage, and that Pahluwan Body actually gives 5% boost to crits. So over 100 attacks, Pahluwan Body gives an additional 5 crits, which does damage equal to 5 melee hits. You get that extra damage, but no extra TP. Meanwhile, the Triple Attack from Homam would give 5 extra attacks during that same 100 attacks. But along with the damage from those 5 extra attacks, you also get extra TP. By those numbers, I would say that Homam is better than Pahluwan body.

And please stop saying that 2.5% is "too low to activate". You didn't seem to think 3.5% (the estimated crit rate on Pahluwan Body) was too small to dismiss. So why is 2.5% so easy to dismiss? The only percentage rate that is truly too low to activate is 0%.

[Malacite]

(At least, not compared to WAR's, with no build in Accuracy Bonus and merely "A" skill in their weapon of choice.)

A little thing called Aggressor

If +10 acc and +10 attack at the same time isn't a big deal, why do you even care that DRG doesn't get to wear Haubergeon? After all, that's basically what Hauby has over SH and Assault Jerkin. Or is 5 STR and 5 DEX that big of a deal? Or did you just feel the need to climb up on a soapbox and rant about your favorite job?


It's not a big deal when you compare it to the bonuses other jobs get. It would be an entirely different story if DRG gained tier 2 bonuses in those stats, but for me, it's more of an image thing and not just the stat ups.

DRG are supposed to wear heavy armors. NIN don't. SE has to pull it's head out from it's own ass.

[Omni]

I stand corrected... the legs are swell.
I'm no ranged combatant, but the hands have alternatives, right? Really, all five pieces are good, but - with the exception of +movement speed - the all have non-cursed alternatives that are at least as good. Probably a lot cheaper, and none compare with Adaman Hauberk.


Crimson gloves in my mind are probably one of the best gloves around for rng, if not the best.

rng atk and rng acc. nothing more i could ask for. some might say seiryu's kote is nice but +15 agi is no where as nice as +10 rng atk.

[Sevv]

DRG are supposed to wear heavy armors. NIN don't. SE has to pull it's head out from it's own ass.

Oh come on, are you being serious?

IF DRAGOONS WERE SUPPOSE TO HAVE HEAVY ARMORS SQUARE-ENIX WOULD HAVE GIVEN THEM ACCESS TO HEAVY ARMOR. SERIOUSLY!!!!!!

http://web.mit.edu/mokang/Public/fail.jpg

Nin gets access to a few heavy armor yes, and thats a hug deal how its ground breaking, no it isn't.

S-E has better things to do then what you feel should be done to a job they created.

so seriously enough of this "suppose to have" bullshit

http://www.aoaforums.com/forum/attachments/mookydookys-just-for-laughs/16788-sandwiches-facepalm.jpg

[Sevv]

Crimson gloves in my mind are probably one of the best gloves around for rng, if not the best.
rng atk and rng acc. nothing more i could ask for. some might say seiryu's kote is nice but +15 agi is no where as nice as +10 rng atk.

He was talking more for blue then all the jobs i missed that at first as well.

[Karinya]

A little thing called Aggressor
+25 acc half the time isn't that much better than +10 acc all the time. Arguably it's worse because you have to gear to perform reasonably well when Aggressor is down, which may lead to an overemphasis on accuracy when it's up (unless you swap gear when it goes on and off).
It's not a big deal when you compare it to the bonuses other jobs get. It would be an entirely different story if DRG gained tier 2 bonuses in those stats, but for me, it's more of an image thing and not just the stat ups.
The big bonuses DRG gets are the two free extra attacks that give you more damage and TP, hate reducing JAs (this is HUGE for a DD) and that little guy following you around. Attack Bonus and Acc Bonus are nice extras.
DRG are supposed to wear heavy armors.
In previous games, maybe. In FFXI they wear medium armor - heavy armors are for WAR, PLD, sometimes DRK or BST. But in previous games Jump wasn't always instant (I think it was in FFT, but not in 4 and 5), delayed your next normal attack (instead of being extra damage in addition to full normal attack speed) and DRG didn't have pets. They still use spears and jump, but many other things about the job are different from previous FFs. Heck, in some games spears were one-handed weapons unless you had the special ability to use them 2-handed, and dragoons could use shields.

You might as well complain that SAM can't throw gil anymore, or that FFXI PLDs don't get Esuna like Cecil, or any number of other changes between old FF jobs and the "same" job in FFXI.

[Lmnop]

As a Warrior, I think I'd trade Aggressor for Accuracy Bonus trait any day of the week.

It is kinda irritating that DRG can't wear haub but nin can. I have an awkward position and a hard one to explain, but I'll try: there's "Heavy" Damage dealers. I don't mean "Big effing numbers" as much as how you'd imagine them fighting. Warrior and Dark Knight are the embodiment of this. But I think Sam, Drg, and Pld fall into this category as well. It's nice that at least one of them wears a different body armor.

[Grizzlebeard]

I seriously wouldn't try to rationalize S-E's gear itemization. For instance, what would be the reasoning for not allowing Drg and Thf to wear a Kirin's Osode?

Oh, and Sev, this isn't KI so we really don't need images like those belittling other posters.

[seq]

And please stop saying that 2.5% is "too low to activate". You didn't seem to think 3.5% (the estimated crit rate on Pahluwan Body) was too small to dismiss. So why is 2.5% so easy to dismiss? The only percentage rate that is truly too low to activate is 0%.
because Pahl.'s can be increased through merits, weapons and you'll already have a natural % on crits.
i'll try to explain it in another way, log in ffxi and do /random
how often you'll get numbers less than 25 (homam's TA rate), how often you'll get numbers less than 105 (3%+ 4% merit+3.5% pahl.body) ? throw in a Gondo-Shizunori and you'll have a critical hit rate of ~15% increasing not only DoT, but WS numbers aswell.
after all this is just my opinion on homam, and we can agree to disagree :)

[IfritnoItazura]

because Pahl.'s can be increased through merits, weapons and you'll already have a natural % on crits.
i'll try to explain it in another way, log in ffxi and do /random
how often you'll get numbers less than 25 (homam's TA rate), how often you'll get numbers less than 105 (3%+ 4% merit+3.5% pahl.body) ? throw in a Gondo-Shizunori and you'll have a critical hit rate of ~15% increasing not only DoT, but WS numbers aswell.
after all this is just my opinion on homam, and we can agree to disagree :)

It's not a matter of agreeing or not agreeing. It's simply mathematically wrong to say "Double Attack + 5%" is more damaging than "Triple Attack + 2.5%".

Whether Pahluwan Khazagand is better than Homam Corazza or not doesn't change the validity of the statement.

Oh, and Sev, this isn't KI so we really don't need images like those belittling other posters.
Well said. ^_^

[Feba]

Oh, and Sev, this isn't KI so we really don't need
Sev

Agreed. Waste of bandwidth.

[Lmnop]

Seq, I understand your position, but it doesn't take everything into account.

Let's say you have a base 5% crit rate (we pretty much all do). That's a roll of 50 on /random. But if you have TA 2.5%, that's a roll of 25 on a second /random.

Meaning, in order to stay accurate, you now need to type /random twice. And that triple attack roll can crit, so you should probably roll a 3rd and 4th time. With all these /randoms, you're bound to get one of the low numbers every once in a while.

so in 13.66 minutes you'll have a 2.5% Chance of triple attacking VS brutal's 5% chance it's true BS..

In those 13.66 minutes, the pahl. body will give you 1-5 more crits than homam. Possibly no extras, since those 7 extra swings (statistically 2.5 X 3) are 7 extra chances to crit. And Homam user still has ~9% crit rate (base 5 + merits 4).


--------------------

Seq, I don't think Homam body is the end-all-be-all for DRG. I think it's hard to compete, but I'm not going to call you gimp for not using it. The difference is probably less than the difference of using an Amemet mantle and an Ame +1. If you want to focus on a crit build, I'm glad it's working out for you. And I guarantee you're doing more damage than the people who just use the most expensive stuff possible w/out regards to gearing towards a goal.


My original point was that these days, people aren't treating Homam body with the respect it deserves.

Also, it doesn't help my argument at all but THF 3A is 5% base rate, not 2.5%.

[Sevv]

meh ethier way ppl stopped saying omg i needz heavy armor for drg it just isnt right....

[nickofearth]

Hmm. Didn't think DRG's would "whoosh" much, given native Accuracy Bonus +10 and "A+" skill rating in their primary weapon. (At least, not compared to WAR's, with no build in Accuracy Bonus and merely "A" skill in their weapon of choice.)
You must be special. =b
Whoosh not wiff :P
Real warriors use a Great Axe.
Yes you cant tp in heca, but we get homam, which is great to tp in, what's wrong with homam? I don't have sea, even tho cop battles are easier now I still don't have sea And to those with sea and people before you the game is about work you have to put some in before you can just get any piece.
Yes, because if you have Sea you automatically get homam. I've yet to get a single piece.
If you think heca is really shit then you shouldn't do sky/kings because there is nothing for you spend all your time farming get Conte Peices some Homam from sea, and get out damage by drgs who macro in heca.
I never personally said hecatomb sucks, I'm eagerly awaiting next kirin fight cause the harness is mine guarenteed when it drops.

[Malacite]

It just doesn't make sense mechanically or flavorfully though. And MMO or not it's still an FF game and you don't screw the basic fundamentals of the jobs. I find FFXI's Samurai more closely resembles FFT's to be honest >.>

I really just don't like the way SE's handled one of my all time favorite job classes in any RPG series. When I first heard of DRG coming to the game some 5 years ago, I thought "Awesome! I'll be able to wear all the awesome armors and leap into the sky!"

Hello reality check ; ; Jump isn't nearly as good as it used to be, but then because of how the battle system works in FFXI (TP gain and all) they very well couldn't have DRG's leaping away to safety and coming back down for double damage every other attack round. That would be mad broken in XI (not that DRG's were ever invincible in previous games either for that matter)


It's just not the DRG I've grown to love from the series is all. It's a neat take on it and I like it, but I got my beefs with it too... and I'll leave it at that. I just figured that, you know, a "Dragon Knight", the most elite of the San d'Orian forces, would be able to wear at least a half-decent suit of plate.