Things that should be improved about FFXI...

[PhiberOpticks]

I figured a place to discuss possible gameplay improvements would be a good idea. Not technical, though, as I believe there is another place for that.

But I find the character design to be a bit lacking and I would love to see some more player support on revamping that. There could be many features to character design that would make players more unique. I'll put my ideas into bullet-points to better organize my thoughts:

Make character heights scalable instead of having preset heights.
Instead of having two versions of each face, a color palette would be good. (electric blue hair, anyone?)
More faces. I find the range of choices to be very lacking.
Make a body type variable portion. You could choose between making your character muscular or obese. Although the range of how far this would go could be limited to how the races would look, logically.
Eye color palette would be a pretty nice feature. But not completely necessary.Also, for post-creation I have a few in-game ideas:

Facial expressions! Not to be taken too seriously. But just have an option for mood in your menu and you can choose how you want your character to look.
More linkshell supporting content. Whenever I played FFXI, I always felt that the linkshells lacked that fun experience of kinship that makes grouping more fun. There could be a linkshell moghouse, possibly.That's all the ideas for now. Feel free to share yours as well.

[Murphie]

PS2 limitations, blah blah blah.

Not that your ideas aren't interesting.

[Taskmage]

I think for your character creation enhancements, the scalable height and hair color palette would have been pretty doable, but adding in more face types and body structures would involve putting new geometry in the game, and might require too much of the PS2 limited memory to load in all those models and textures at once. Eye color is probably pretty doable too, but that level of roleplay/personalization is something that I think would appeal to a relatively small segment of the playerbase.

Facial expressions probably would be struck down for the same reason as new face/body types, but maybe the overhead would be lower and it would be possible. Personally, I'm happy enough with the in-game emote animations for expression, but I could see the desire to not have the same expression perpetually on your character's face.

I think there could definately be a lot done to improve the linkshell system, and some SE employee actually said once how much they'd like to overhaul it, but in the same breath he said that because the LS system was one of the first things they designed, it's so deeply embedded in the code that they would have to rewrite significant chunks of the game system to make any modifications to it. :(

[Lmnop]

even City of Heroes doesn't have a direct means of controlling eye color (you can make glowing white or blue or emenating black from the sockets, but you can't make "normal eyes, but blue instead of green"). And I think that says a lot, since if you've ever seen the character creation engine of CoH....


I guess the point is: it's a detail not worth the memory usage since in-game graphics would make it hardly ever noticed.

[PhiberOpticks]

Personally, I never caught on to the idea of playing FFXI on the PS2. But perhaps there will be an install base shift to next-gen consoles that would allow Square-Enix to make changes without sacrificing the gaming experience of players.

I wouldn't put off the idea of revamping the LS system because it's so embedded, though. I'm sure there's some way of doing that without changing game mechanics. I think a patch would be the best way to do that. That way, it's available to everyone to download and is mandatory, so everyone must undergo the change and would prevent technical conflicts.

[Murphie]

Personally, I never caught on to the idea of playing FFXI on the PS2. But perhaps there will be an install base shift to next-gen consoles that would allow Square-Enix to make changes without sacrificing the gaming experience of players.Until a majority of their playerbase isn't using the PS2 (which most of their JP player base is), it probably won't happen.

That said, I don't have a problem at all with the graphics. FFXI looks better on my PC than many of the newer MMOs out there. I love the look and feel of this game.

[Taskmage]

I'm not an SE programmer so I can't tell you exactly what the problem is, but they made it seem very unlikely. For now we can hope and try to make use of the workaround (http://fanzone.playonline.com/lscom/index.do) they made.

[PhiberOpticks]

Perhaps in the future, they'll take the Everquest approach and just make a second one to address these issues. Although I hope they don't sacrifice the look of the game, which I've grown to like.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

The Linkshell Community thing appears to be a step in the right direction, as far as communication and organization of events, etc. The Kokba Hostel is probably the closest thing we'll get to a "Linkshell Mog House".

[Murphie]

Perhaps in the future, they'll take the Everquest approach and just make a second one to address these issues. Although I hope they don't sacrifice the look of the game, which I've grown to like.There has been some vague talk about another SE MMO, but from what I've seen here and at other forums, the general feeling is that a direct FFXI sequel wouldn't be ideal.

But maybe I misread. Personally I'm ambivalent about the idea.

One thing I like about playing on the PC is my ability to tweak the registry so that the game looks better than it does for PS2/3 and 360 users. Honestly, I can't complain once I crank up the settings a bit.

edit: I kind of wish the LS Community was sort of a cross between what it is now, and WoW's Armoury system (of course, a lot of people aren't fans of that, so you never know). One of the biggest failings I see with the LS community is the lack of options for non-shelled individual players, and the fact that it's opt-in, so you don't really get a comprehensive look at the LS situation on your server.

[PhiberOpticks]

I've seen screenshots of the new MMO they're working on and I hate it. It's too cutesy for my tastes. The FFXI-2 idea was more of a spontaneous idea, that I don't personally like. I find a patch would be more appropriate after the install base of the game has changed.

I would much rather see a whole new FF MMORPG. And that one could simply be titled Final Fantasy Online. FFXI is always a title that has urked me, since it's basically, a different genre. But I've thought about new ideas for an FF MMORPG so many times before.

[Irisjir Callard]

I think for your character creation enhancements, the scalable height and hair color palette would have been pretty doable, but adding in more face types and body structures would involve putting new geometry in the game, and might require too much of the PS2 limited memory to load in all those models and textures at once.
A-men.

Eye color is probably pretty doable too, but that level of roleplay/personalization is something that I think would appeal to a relatively small segment of the playerbase.

That relatively small segment being me. I wanted my character to have vivid knock-your-boots-off green eyes...
.dat for the win. I don't notice the eyes on other characters except very occasionally, since they are such a minor detail, but knowing they're there for me...I can't explain it. I think the playerbase has a suitable means of altering hair-eye color, at least for PC.
*Personal opinion time* I played on a game that allowed eye color/shape to be selected. Everyone picked the one shape that was cat-eyed and they all picked the color red for it. I think the same thing would happen in FFXI...everyone would decide that one particular setting looked "badass" and they would all have the same thing anyway, end of story.

What I WOULD like to see, in this vein, is hardware/software that enables personal .dat upgrades to be made available to ps2/xbox users. I agree that .dat swaps and other 'borderline' infringements like TPparty that a lot of people are divided on are only REALLY unfair because they're only available to PC users.


Facial expressions probably would be struck down for the same reason as new face/body types, but maybe the overhead would be lower and it would be possible. Personally, I'm happy enough with the in-game emote animations for expression, but I could see the desire to not have the same expression perpetually on your character's face.

Actually...

This sub-divides the .dats we have right now. Instead of one head .dat, we would have a face .dat and a hair .dat. Infact, we might even have a head .dat and a hair .dat that was optional, given the "bald" option hume male has.
So REALLY, it would just be one more visible .dat per character model loading. Considering that right now there are six per char, bumping up to seven, I don't think the load would be that much greater. I beleive we would still have the same number of facial expressions as we have head .dats right now.

Unfortunately, this, even more than linkshell, is something embedded so deeply into the game coding that changing it would be nigh-impossible. This would be more than an update, more than a patch, this would be FFXIv2.0...giving us the opportunity for...



I think there could definately be a lot done to improve the linkshell system, and some SE employee actually said once how much they'd like to overhaul it, but in the same breath he said that because the LS system was one of the first things they designed, it's so deeply embedded in the code that they would have to rewrite significant chunks of the game system to make any modifications to it. :(

Having not played any MMO's except FFXI, I really cannot propose any alterations to the current linkshell system. I think, though, with the beta LS community, they had a good idea going. The community would have done much better say,

Without the word limit on posts
With the ability to edit first post for a topic
With the ability to post images/links/downloads

Basically, if it was more like one of the fifty billion standard, normal forums just like this one.

A linkshell armory, though, sounds intriguing. Would it be possible to drop rare-EX items from monsters the linkshell killed straight into the armory for a time and then distribute them to players? Or even have players "withdraw" EX items from the armory and then the item would automatically return after a set time period? The possiblities are fascanating.





Oh, one more update that I think would be interesting...

Reservations for Dynamis. Just like the hostel, you can reserve your room ahead of time, I think it would be nice if Dynamis could be reserved ahead of time. Nothing stinks more than having a zone stolen from you, or having to steal it from someone else really isn't that much better. It would also help players mobilize and organize on time...my current LS is drifting 'backwards' and out of my time slot because people are having trouble organizing on time. Message says gather together at ten, we enter at ten thirty, and people actually gather at ten thirty, etc.

[DakAttack]

I've seen screenshots of the new MMO they're working on and I hate it. It's too cutesy for my tastes. The FFXI-2 idea was more of a spontaneous idea, that I don't personally like. I find a patch would be more appropriate after the install base of the game has changed.

I would much rather see a whole new FF MMORPG. And that one could simply be titled Final Fantasy Online. FFXI is always a title that has urked me, since it's basically, a different genre. But I've thought about new ideas for an FF MMORPG so many times before.

What?

[Murphie]

A linkshell armory, though, sounds intriguing. Would it be possible to drop rare-EX items from monsters the linkshell killed straight into the armory for a time and then distribute them to players? Or even have players "withdraw" EX items from the armory and then the item would automatically return after a set time period? The possiblities are fascanating.That wasn't exactly what I was referring to.

Basically the WoW Armory (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/) (link not working atm) is a database of every character playing WoW. All of their stats - searchable, sortable, etc.

[Lmnop]

FF8 Online.

Ok, my personal dream aside...

I was under the impression that the only screenshots they've released were solely means of showing off their intended game engine. Not actually of what the final product will be like.

[Irisjir Callard]

That wasn't exactly what I was referring to.
Basically the WoW Armory (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/) (link not working atm) is a database of every character playing WoW. All of their stats - searchable, sortable, etc.


Oh...that's a cool idea...I like mine more.





On second thought, it would solve a lot of problems farther into the linkshell system, when you get to the point where there are one or two key people you do NOT want to share a linkshell with. If you could just "Google" the expanded linklist to see if that person had a pearl to the shell you were thinking of joining.

Conversely, it would make it easier to apply to a shell with friends/people you know are competent in it.


Again, though, isn't the beta community a sort of echo of this? Granted you only see members that sign up, and you only see limited data about them, but it gives you a basis for further research.

[Murphie]

The beta community is sort of like that, but not really. It's of virtually no use to people who aren't already in a linkshell, and it's totally opt-in, meaning that people have to actively use it for it to be worthwhile. And since most don't, it's not.

What you're thinking of is a guild bank, by the way. Some games have them.

[Hershies]

More character customization and more monster variety. I think the PS2 really hurt this game in those areas, and it's a shame too.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Perhaps in the future, they'll take the Everquest approach and just make a second one to address these issues.
I like how making a sequel in order to enhance the original game is being called "the Everquest approach", like no other game has ever had a sequel in order to improve upon the first until EQ 2 came out. :P

[Irisjir Callard]

The beta community is sort of like that, but not really. It's of virtually no use to people who aren't already in a linkshell, and it's totally opt-in, meaning that people have to actively use it for it to be worthwhile. And since most don't, it's not.
What you're thinking of is a guild bank, by the way. Some games have them.


Most don't because it sucks, and I already made my argument why it sucks.

As far as guild bank, I've experienced guild banks that stored gil, not guild banks that could store items as well. I think it would be nice if they could, and that it would probably free up some extensively camped NMs. Not a LOT of them...but...some.

[IfritnoItazura]

Some of the character customization can be added without affecting PS2--by having PS2 client ignore the customization. >_>;

Basically, stick with "basics", but allow small degree of customization to be displayed, optionally, for clients with the memory and CPU power. (Kinda of like how you can turn off weather effects on PC client.)

Body shape changes would be a nightmare, though, since S-E would have to go through all the armor art assets to make sure things don't look horrible on fat and skinny characters, and fix anything which look bad--which could be a huge number. I can't think of an easy way to accommodate more faces, either.

However, I'd guess hair/skin dye and color "contact lenses" can be more easily shoehorned in. Scalable heights can be done, just on PS2 clients they would be resized to nearest three default sizes when displayed. Facial expression should be possible, just have PS2 clients ignore those.

Unfortunately, S-E has stated that that they want the clients to be pretty even across all platforms, so it's unlikely we'd see anything which cannot be implemented on PS2. Whether that's because they don't want PS2 users to feel left out, or because they're too cheap/stretched thin to further develop the engine and create the additional art assets, I would not know. >_>;

Of course, would you rather S-E spend their resources on those cosmetic things? Or on another expansion pack? Or, do neither and just lower the price of the game a bit?

p.s. I actually think customization would have a great deal of appeal; I spent hours and hours making characters on Soulcalibur 3. If the customization options are rich enough, it just may make the JP players buy new client software and move from PS2, making sunsetting of PS2 client more of a possibility.

[kyosak]

FF8 Online.

Ok, my personal dream aside...

I was under the impression that the only screenshots they've released were solely means of showing off their intended game engine. Not actually of what the final product will be like.

Hey we both share the same personal dream~

[Irisjir Callard]

Skin color changes would require altering of all the subligar and harness armors, since the character skin color is written right onto those dats. Your legs are part of your bone subligar, incase you didn't know. That's why they change coloring when you swap to capricorn subligar.

So even such a minor change as skin color is actually just as labor-intensive to alter as being obese or anorexic.

[PhiberOpticks]

What?
I can't give you a link to the article, but look for Fantasy Earth: Ring of Dominion on IGN.

I like how making a sequel in order to enhance the original game is being called "the Everquest approach", like no other game has ever had a sequel in order to improve upon the first until EQ 2 came out.

It was a good example for articulating what I was getting at. Besides, I don't know of any other MMORPGs that have done it.

[PhiberOpticks]

Basically, stick with "basics", but allow small degree of customization to be displayed, optionally, for clients with the memory and CPU power. (Kinda of like how you can turn off weather effects on PC client.)
That is a great idea, actually.

EDIT: My bad for double posting. I was using the quick reply box to put my extra stuff in while I typed it up, but I accidentally hit quick reply. I'm not used to being unable to delete posts >.<

[Murphie]

Lineage II and Asheron's Call 2 are the more well known examples.

[IfritnoItazura]

Skin color changes would require altering of all the subligar and harness armors, since the character skin color is written right onto those dats. Your legs are part of your bone subligar, incase you didn't know. That's why they change coloring when you swap to capricorn subligar.

Hmm. I had forgotten about that, but it should be manageable, right? Maybe by manually masking the skin area (alpha channel or something?), then programmatically apply skin "tanning" to generate the appropriately colored skin part of the textures? (Would require engine changes, of course, for PC and xBox360 clients.)

I would really like to have darker skin with my white hair Mithra. Or, better yet, a glossy, black panther coat of fur with white mane. =^.^=

[Evion]

More character customization and more monster variety. I think the PS2 really hurt this game in those areas, and it's a shame too.

I totally agree... I mean, come on!? Wurm/Bee/Crab/Gob/Orc/misc. flier... Rinse, zone, repeat.

[Taskmage]

Hmm. I had forgotten about that, but it should be manageable, right? Maybe by manually masking the skin area (alpha channel or something?), then programmatically apply skin "tanning" to generate the appropriately colored skin part of the textures? (Would require engine changes, of course, for PC and xBox360 clients.)
I would really like to have darker skin with my white hair Mithra. Or, better yet, a glossy, black panther coat of fur with white mane. =^.^=I'm all for that change if it means I can wear Republic Subligar and Wonder Clomps and not see a seam on my leg where my skin changes color and thickness. ><

[Mhurron]

I say we just get rid of subligar entirely. And Elvaan's wearing subligar.

And Elvaan's entirely.

[IfritnoItazura]

Aw, Elvaans are OK. Just stop cross breeding them with giraffes. ._.

[Taskmage]

gk'ahg >< mental image!

[PhiberOpticks]

I hate the subligar so very much.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

More character customization and more monster variety. I think the PS2 really hurt this game in those areas, and it's a shame too.

PS2 had nothing to do with that. The rehashing/repainting of monster models with new names is as old as the series itself... or any game, for that matter. I can't even think of a game where the town NPC models weren't recycled except for Zelda N64 games onward.

I think you're just used to seeing specific models. Dig a little deeper into the game and you'll find the beastiary is quite respectable.

[Irisjir Callard]

PS2 had nothing to do with that. The rehashing/repainting of monster models with new names is as old as the series itself... or any game, for that matter. I can't even think of a game where the town NPC models weren't recycled except for Zelda N64 games onward.
I think you're just used to seeing specific models. Dig a little deeper into the game and you'll find the beastiary is quite respectable.


I would like to see more color variety in monsters. It doesn't bother me that all crabs are shaped the same, what bugs me is it's the same bright blue everywhere I go (Except for a very few brown ones). Same with the damselflies, and those ungodly pink birds...why aren't there more of the brown skin.

I think there should be more color skins for monsters, the way animals in the outside world blend in with their surroundings. It can be fun to try to pick out a couerl in meriphad mountains from however many ilms, ESPECIALLY with names turned off.

[Mhurron]

I would like to see more color variety in monsters. It doesn't bother me that all crabs are shaped the same, what bugs me is it's the same bright blue everywhere I go (Except for a very few brown ones). Same with the damselflies, and those ungodly pink birds...why aren't there more of the brown skin.
I've always wondered why Ravens aren't black.

[Aeni]

That wasn't exactly what I was referring to.

Basically the WoW Armory (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/) (link not working atm) is a database of every character playing WoW. All of their stats - searchable, sortable, etc.

Actually, Blizz is moving forward with the next phase of the Armory, which will include an option for guild bank. Now members can withdraw repair expenses for guild sponsored events (i.e., Dynamis) and there might even be an option for consumable storage through which withdrawals can be made either through gold payment or even a Blizz-created DKP system. The myraids of possibilties for this is endless as well as for abuse. Right now, obviously, the design team is making sure they don't open any avenues for abuse, but you know hackers, always looking to find it.

Some of the additions will also include a voice-over-ip built into the game.

These kinds of possiblities exist because with a PC you're not restricted to limitations of some pre-fabricated system like FFXI is.

But that's neither here nor there...

As for improvements in FFXI, much of it is unfortunately tied to the PS2 architecture. Believe me, if it wasn't for the PS2, S-E would've made all of these suggestions into reality with tons of their own. FFXI would be a whole different beast than it is today. Right now, S-E is trying to squeeze every ounce of creativity out of this tight restriction to make the game interesting and unique today as it was when it first came out. And that's not an easy task by a stretch of the imagination. I have to applaud S-E for making this effort. But at the same time, reality will tell you that it's near time when you wanna push (nudge) PS2 users to other systems and eventually "force" them to upgrade.

This won't be a hard thing to do actually, considering Sony has stopped developing HDD capable PS2s for a while now and it's so hard to find replacement HDDs for the existing ones that are probably near failing (HDD lifespan is not long, and if you look at how old FFXI already is, you will see the problem that lies just on the horizon for many PS2 players...)

[Malacite]

PS2 had nothing to do with that. The rehashing/repainting of monster models with new names is as old as the series itself... or any game, for that matter. I can't even think of a game where the town NPC models weren't recycled except for Zelda N64 games onward.

I think you're just used to seeing specific models. Dig a little deeper into the game and you'll find the beastiary is quite respectable.

The PS2 has everything to do with that. System memory limitations really hurt what SE can do with the game, but they can't afford to just cut off PS2 support either. The game's top developers themselves came out and said in an interview a month or so back (it's on POL.com somewhere) that they couldn't create the Vana'diel they wanted to due to technological limitations.

The PS2's system memory is probably the biggest one. All the same they did a damn fine job.

[Aeni]

The PS2 has everything to do with that. System memory limitations really hurt what SE can do with the game, but they can't afford to just cut off PS2 support either.

In my post above, I did warn everyone that once the HDDs start dying and Sony can't service these customers (Obviously) and also for the handful of customers looking to buy a replacement PS2 for the one that died ... there really is no choice but to move to another platform to continue playing, right?

This trend is likely to pick up steam in another 2 years or so, as the average life expectancy for the HDDs that Sony had used for the PS2 were estimated to be around 5-6 years. FFXI has already been out for 5 years...

Personally, my own PS2 is on its last leg. The DVD drive servo motors are not happy and my hard drive has already crashed at least 6 times in the past month (It's not even FFXI related since I haven't played FFXI in nearly a year) Once that happens ... well, at least I was wise enough to also invest in the PC version with all the expansion upgrades for it before I left.

[DakAttack]

Fantasy Earth is old news. www.feonline.com

We're now looking forward to their next-gen MMO, which they have been extremely quiet about.

[Raydeus]

Things that should be improved?

FFXI download, bought from the SE store, and expansion download, both charged directly to your POL account.

The same way you buy content IDs, you create a POL account, then buy the game and expansions you want without having to import a disc. You can get the codes via POL mail so it's all within the system.

I mean, zomg buying online games at a store is too 90's. :P

(And importing if you live outside the US is a pain. :cry: )

[PhiberOpticks]

Fantasy Earth is old news. www.feonline.com (http://www.feonline.com)

We're now looking forward to their next-gen MMO, which they have been extremely quiet about.

Ah. That makes a lot of sense now. Haha. 'Bout as quiet as Blizzard was about Starcraft 2. I guess I'll be following it until release like I did with FFXI.

Being able to charge updates to FFXI through POL would be great.

[Aeni]

Things that should be improved?

FFXI download, bought from the SE store, and expansion download, both charged directly to your POL account.

QFMFT!

Final Fantasy XI Online Download crits Aeni for 7.5 hours of patch downloads.
Aeni died.
Aeni falls 70 levels to level 1.

[PhiberOpticks]

Of course it could be optional, though. That way, those of us with above average internet connections don't have to leave our homes more than we already do XD

[Hershies]

Here is what I'd love to see.

PS2 no longer supported (so we can advance the game a little). Release an expansion that rebuilds the game from the ground up visually. Allow for much greater character customization (vs NONE currently available... don't give me that hair A hair B crap), more friggin' beasties (someone above said the game has a respectable beastiary which I don't wholely agree with.. definitely needs more variety), retooled graphics engine (more polys, better textures, less seam tearing, lets shed off that nasty PS2 crap for good), and JUMP! I hate being glued to the ground in mmorpgs ; ;

[Sevv]

Here is what I'd love to see.
PS2 no longer supported (so we can advance the game a little).


This hurt i love my ps2 its so much easier to just say when your old hnmls tells you to bot sorry i play on ps2 if you want me to bot buy me a 5k computer and ill think about it. They never buy the comp it was much easier to live with it lol.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The PS2 has everything to do with that. System memory limitations really hurt what SE can do with the game, but they can't afford to just cut off PS2 support either. The game's top developers themselves came out and said in an interview a month or so back (it's on POL.com somewhere) that they couldn't create the Vana'diel they wanted to due to technological limitations.

Did you even listen to what I said?

The beastiary sees repainted models/rehash in every Final Fantasy game. By your logic, FFXIII should have a larger and more diverse bestiary due to PS3 being a more powerful system.

Its not going to happen. You want to know why?

Its not practical, cost-effective or sane to roll out a new mob model all the time. You have to pay people for design concepts, 3-D imaging, AI, and so on. Hell, FFX was one of the smallest FF games ever in terms of world design and it was on a more powerful system than its predecessors. All the design money went into making linear, on-rails maps and there was no overworld to speak of, nor were there as many dungeons as prior games.

There are repeated models all over the FFXIII already. You will walk into towns and see NPC models repeated not only to cut corners in making the game, but to let it run smoothly.

Everyone wants more out of a game they made than they were able to do. Only 1/4th of the original scenario made the cut for Final Fantasy IV on the Super Famicom. Now they're remaking it for the Nintendo DS and they'll be able to have the full scenario because the memory limitations aren't the same.

But will character and enemy models be repeated? You can bet on it.

As for Dropping PS2, I don't think any MMO developer in their right mind would drop support for a certain system or processor ever again. Sony burned a load of EQ players when Ruins of Kunark REQUIRED a new PC processor.

Sorry, I already pay $12.95 to play a month. I will not buy a new system or graphics card just because somone paid your company to dick over your customers. PC gamers may be used to getting screwed over a barrel every few months just to play a new game, but console gamers are not as stupid, we want the most milage for our dollar, which is why we got a console in the first place.

[Hershies]

mmmmm, grilled kitten with BBQ sauce *drools*


....ummm seriously though *shakes head* I know where you're coming from, bbqkitten. I just see the potential Vana'diel has, and it's annoying to see it squandered because of hardware limitations (PS2). Hopefully their next MMORPG will be able to be what they wanted for FFXI.

[Sevv]

mmmmm, grilled kitten with BBQ sauce *drools*
....ummm seriously though *shakes head* I know where you're coming from, bbqkitten. I just see the potential Vana'diel has, and it's annoying to see it squandered because of hardware limitations (PS2). Hopefully their next MMORPG will be able to be what they wanted for FFXI.


You do know FFXI was designed for the ps2 originally and not the pc right?

[Omniblast]

Tweak The Hands Of All Humes, Mithras And Elvaans So That They Aren't So Freakishly Huge!

Huge Hands != Sexy!

WTF I HAD EVERYTHING IN CAPS!

[Mhurron]

WTF I HAD EVERYTHING IN CAPS!
Ya the board software stops that.

[Sevv]

Ya the board software stops that.

Really does it now?

[Olorin401]

Body shape changes would be a nightmare, though, since S-E would have to go through all the armor art assets to make sure things don't look horrible on fat and skinny characters, and fix anything which look bad--which could be a huge number. I can't think of an easy way to accommodate more faces, either.
Elvaan Males already look fat in cloaks and tunics..

What I'd like to see is the ability to change something like hair color/length or facial hair at any time.

[Sevv]

Elvaan Males already look fat in cloaks and tunics..


And thats why the humes get the ladies (^.^ )b

[Malacite]

And thats why the humes get the ladies (^.^ )b


We're dead-sexy in all the heavy armors and MNK/NIN/SAM gear though :3


PLD AF anyone?


Seriously though, I'd love to see what SE could do to FFXI given the time and resources with PS3 and Blu-Ray. It won't ever happen, but it's fun to dream.

[PhiberOpticks]

If they would split the head .dat file into a face and hair .dat files, that would be great. That way, they could open up barber shops in all the towns and cities for some cool creativity. And they could dye hair there as well.

I really hope that this new MMORPG that they're working on, if it's worth a damn, will go to the PS3.

[Aeni]

You do know FFXI was designed for the ps2 originally and not the pc right?

Moot point, however, seeing how their income is generated through the PC side of the business. In fact, when NA version was released, within just a few months, the number of PC accounts surpassed their total PS2 accounts by far.

[Hershies]

Yeah so there! ; ;

[Hershies]

Moot point, however, seeing how their income is generated through the PC side of the business. In fact, when NA version was released, within just a few months, the number of PC accounts surpassed their total PS2 accounts by far.

Yeah so there! ; ;

sorry double post *dies*

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Moot point, however, seeing how their income is generated through the PC side of the business. In fact, when NA version was released, within just a few months, the number of PC accounts surpassed their total PS2 accounts by far.
What exactly are the numbers that you base that on? Even if PC has twice as many players as PS2, that still means one-third of revenue comes though PS2 accounts. If I were SE, I wouldn't easily part with that much cash flow. Especially not over a costly overhaul that might not bring in enough new business to justify the loss of a very safe revenue stream.

[Jrgsubzero]

I really hope that this new MMORPG that they're working on, if it's worth a damn, will go to the PS3.

Then won't we have the same 'problem' we are having now when we will start being limited by the PS3's technology?

*shrugs*

All I want to know is why the hume male has to have a goofy look on his face for the hair I actually liked (F4).

[Murphie]

Then won't we have the same 'problem' we are having now when we will start being limited by the PS3's technology?Exactly. When FFXI was first created, the PS2 was a pretty nifty piece of hardware.

[Raydeus]

Be mindful of the future, but never at the expense of the present.

[PhiberOpticks]

Then won't we have the same 'problem' we are having now when we will start being limited by the PS3's technology?

Good luck trying to reach that barrier. No game for it thus far has utilized even half of it's power yet.

[Feba]

So? The PS2 games at the time FFXI came out were nowhere near what we saw near the end of it's life with games like Okami and GOW, but FFXI is still held back by the PS2.

[Murphie]

Good luck trying to reach that barrier. No game for it thus far has utilized even half of it's power yet.The PS3 isn't even a year old. Of course the games coming out right now aren't going to push it's limits. If they did, then the PS3 would be a pretty huge failure.

As I said above, when FFXI was first developed, the PS2 was quite the fancy piece of gaming technology. But years later it isn't, because a console isn't going to evolve and grow with the games like a PC can.

[Feba]

the PS3 would be a pretty huge failure.

Knock on wood eight months ago?

[Murphie]

I was trying to be nice. Sometimes it comes off wrong though, because I'm not used to it.

[PhiberOpticks]

The PS3 isn't even a year old. Of course the games coming out right now aren't going to push it's limits. If they did, then the PS3 would be a pretty huge failure.

As I said above, when FFXI was first developed, the PS2 was quite the fancy piece of gaming technology. But years later it isn't, because a console isn't going to evolve and grow with the games like a PC can.

But do you really think that SE can effectively develop an MMORPG that could use that much power and not have serious lag issues? Besides, graphics can only go so far before games become almost exactly like real life. And judging from the power of these next-gen consoles, we're pretty close. So I highly doubt that SE would run into the same kind of barrier with PS3 as they did with PS2.

[Murphie]

It's sweet that you think that highly of the PS3's capability, but the fact remains that it's a static piece of hardware. Technology will move forward. The PS3? Not so much.

[Malacite]

It's sweet that you think that highly of the PS3's capability, but the fact remains that it's a static piece of hardware. Technology will move forward. The PS3? Not so much.

Making a PC-only title the most logical. However, that would mean losing one of FFXI's merits (multi-platform)

[Sevv]

Moot point, however, seeing how their income is generated through the PC side of the business. In fact, when NA version was released, within just a few months, the number of PC accounts surpassed their total PS2 accounts by far.


It happens to not really be a moot point. FFXI created for the PS2 graphics wise to run and not crash the ps, S-E decided to move it to the PC and then the 360. Everyone bitches about the ps2, but w/o ps2 FFXI you don't have the game you play.

[Murphie]

Making a PC-only title the most logical. However, that would mean losing one of FFXI's merits (multi-platform)Oh, absolutely. But I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing, personally.

[Mhurron]

So I highly doubt that SE would run into the same kind of barrier with PS3 as they did with PS2.
This is funny. Allow me to share some other 'insightful' posts regarding computers:

640k ought to be enough for anybody - unknown

I think there is a world market for about five computers" — Remark attributed to Thomas J. Watson (Chairman of the Board of International Business Machines), 1943

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC

"But what...is it good for?"
- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip

Care to restate your position that SE wouldn't be limited by the PS3 in the future? The PS3 exists and hits specs are written in stone, people will find ways of using its power but the abilities of the PS3 will never change. It is a foregone conclusion that games released late in the PS3's lifetime will be pushing the abilities of the platform and any cross platform game like FFXI in 5-7 years will have the same complaints levied against it if the company that created it maintains the PS3 as a fully supported platform along with the PC.

[PhiberOpticks]

This is funny. Allow me to share some other 'insightful' posts regarding computers:

640k ought to be enough for anybody - unknown

I think there is a world market for about five computers" — Remark attributed to Thomas J. Watson (Chairman of the Board of International Business Machines), 1943

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC

"But what...is it good for?"
- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip


Are you comparing me to people who thought the PC would be useless? If that's the case, then that is the worst analogy I have ever seen.

Care to restate your position that SE wouldn't be limited by the PS3 in the future?

No.

The PS3 exists and hits specs are written in stone, people will find ways of using its power but the abilities of the PS3 will never change.

Most PCs aren't even near as powerful as the PS3. It would take much longer, than the time it took the PS2, to expire in the MMORPG market. Notice my phrasing and how I made a comparison to the PS2.

And considering that the power of the average console used rises far greater than the rate at which people upgrade their PCs, I find it extremely unlikely that the PS3 would run into the same problem as the PS2 did for MMORPGs.

So? The PS2 games at the time FFXI came out were nowhere near what we saw near the end of it's life with games like Okami and GOW, but FFXI is still held back by the PS2.

I just noticed something here that I'd like to touch base on. FFXI was released very close to the time that the PS2 came out. And if it was already pushing the PS2 that hard that soon, I hardly see how you could make the same conclusion for the PS3.

[nickofearth]

I'd prefer they fix the broken dual wield vs 2 handed mechanics first. >.>

I do like the chaning of colored eyes and hair though. ^^

[Murphie]

It wasn't at the time, but it is now.

edit: I should have quoted. But maybe not, since I am so tired of this particular discussion.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There isn't much room left to go on graphics and realism at this point, if that isn't obvious to people now, I have to feel sorry for those people. Any leap we take beyond PS3 is going to be marginal and unimpressive. Its going to be things like framerate and diversifying models and the size of zones that matters beyond the graphics.

But then, look what handheld is owning the world right now. The graphics are just a cut above what N64 could do and even then its mostly just used for 2D games, which are still alive and kicking. Kicking ass, at that.

I personally think FFXI would loose a lot of its visual charm at this point where an engine upgrade to take place, in addition to a major consumer burn.

Its cute PC gamers think they're the center of the industry. Sadly, its not true, console gamers are. More and more, development focus shifts away from PC development more and more every day. A lot of good PC Devs have either dried up and died, moved on to console game development, multiplatform development or stick to making RTS and MMOs.

Bioware is now making a Sonic the Hedgehog RPG on the Nintendo DS.

Think about that seriously, because I'm not making a joke. They really are making this game. This after Mass Effect, Jade Empire and Knights of the Old Republic.

Sign of the times.

[Hershies]

There isn't much room left to go on graphics and realism at this point, if that isn't obvious to people now, I have to feel sorry for those people. Any leap we take beyond PS3 is going to be marginal and unimpressive. Its going to be things like framerate and diversifying models and the size of zones that matters beyond the graphics.

But then, look what handheld is owning the world right now. The graphics are just a cut above what N64 could do and even then its mostly just used for 2D games, which are still alive and kicking. Kicking ass, at that.

I personally think FFXI would loose a lot of its visual charm at this point where an engine upgrade to take place, in addition to a major consumer burn.

Its cute PC gamers think they're the center of the industry. Sadly, its not true, console gamers are. More and more, development focus shifts away from PC development more and more every day. A lot of good PC Devs have either dried up and died, moved on to console game development, multiplatform development or stick to making RTS and MMOs.

Bioware is now making a Sonic the Hedgehog RPG on the Nintendo DS.

Think about that seriously, because I'm not making a joke. They really are making this game. This after Mass Effect, Jade Empire and Knights of the Old Republic.

Sign of the times.

I agree with you completely. PC gamers tend to be elitest and lash out due to the fact that their platform is an ongoing battle just to keep a pulse. PC gaming gets a difibulator whenever releases like Half-Life 2, WoW, Crysis, and Starcraft 2 come about and keeps it on life support that much longer. Will it ever die? Of course not! However, bbq is absolutely correct is saying that console gaming has a MUCH larger marketshare when it comes to gaming.

FFXI is an aging title, and there's no way around that. I was pretty much dreaming when I wished for dropped PS2 support and a graphics overhaul to take advantage of new hardware (ala EQ). You can tell I was blowing steam especially when I added I'd like to see a jump button ^^;

I didn't mean to offend console owners with my wishes... I am a 360 gamer afterall. It urks me slightly to see the game held back because of the PS2, though.. I won't lie. I believe that if it WAS a PC title, we would have very possibly seen greater leaps in technology that FFXI uses for better PC and 360 clients. Obviously an assumption.

[Feba]

The thing is, the MMO market *is* owned by PCs, and the PS2 is a dead system. The 360 can do better, the PC can do better, and if they release it on the PS3, that can do better. A graphics overhaul isn't too much to ask, CCP has done it with a game of similar size, popularity-wise, in fact I believe they're overhauling to to DX10 AND OpenGL. I've read that they're planning on having clients that take full advantage of Mac, Linux, or Vista, while of course keeping their older (DX8 I believe) client functioning as well. Keep in mind this company has basically started from scratch, not from a huge empire. Hell, I think they're still hiring, and growing.

A better looking game isn't too much to ask for. SE could EASILY do it, they just don't want to.

There isn't much room left to go on graphics and realism at this point, if that isn't obvious to people now

Sure there is. Games have barely begun to cross the uncanny valley. Physics in most games have much room for improvement, as does interactivity. Even Shenmue's FREE system, which was way ahead of it's time (personally I still think it's better than any game I've seen) wasn't fully interactive. In the future, a game might let you pick up a box, put it down outside your garage, and climb onto the roof. Not because you need to to be able to progress in the game, but because you can. AI has a huge way to go, you can bet your hide that AI will take a lot of processing power in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if 15 years from now we weren't using our headsets to issue commands Ala SOCOM, but we use them to have a chat with NPCs. Of course the date sim market in Japan will take advantage of this. Look at dead rising, at how many different items there are to use as weapons. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's played something such as a Zelda game, where I wonder why the character doesn't just get through something with brute force, or ask someone a question about something to save a bunch of time. Games are still very very rigid, whereas reality is far more fluid.

Let's compare two things you might do in a video game and in real life.

using Shenmue as an example, you find a letter that has some weird symbols on it. Normally, you have to track down a specific character to figure it out. But in reality, you could go to a library, spend time searching for a book, and figure it out. You could take it to a university professor who deals in cryptology.

Think about how many times you've shown an item to a character in a video game only to get "No Response." Or "Sorry, I don't know anything about that."- in a more fluid game, they'd be able to say "Hm...I don't know. It kinda reminds me of <totally incorrect suggestion to follow" or "Why don't you take it to <random person who knows nothing about the subject, but has a side quest". Not characters you have to talk to to further the story.

In a future video game, it might have an online element... but it would be nearly impossible for you to tell an NPC walking down the street from a fellow human. The game itself might just be an empty planet, and people can work the land themselves. Not by manipulating 3D elements, but by building it. Not by synthing it, but by showing your character how to build it.

For example, you're stuck on an abandoned island. In a current game, such as MI, you'd hunt down whatever you need to solve a puzzle to further your quest to get off it. In the future, you might go looking along the beach for a rock you could use to cut down a tree, when you find it, you cut down a row of trees, eat some of the fruit off the ends of them to satisfy your hunger, and then use the trees themselves to build a makeshift shelter. Once you've done that, you go out fishing with a spear you made by taping a pen to the end of a stick, you bring it back to your shelter, and again decide to eat. You gather up some wood and start a fire... your fish cooks nicely, and the fire keeps you warm as the night starts to chill. Which is good because it's getting windy... wait... the wind blows the fire onto your shelter. As it starts to burn, you realize you've got nowhere to stay again. And the best part is, none of this was scripted. None of this was a character telling you "Hey, go here so we can continue with the story". The only part that happened that was out of your control, something that you didn't want to do, is that your pilot, a fellow human, was new to flying, and panicked when an engine failed. Before that, you were chatting it up with the cute little red head across the isle. Now you just realize you forgot to see if she was human or not.

Games have much, much farther to go in terms of graphics and realism. The sky is the limit. Comparing what games COULD be to what games are now is like comparing Oblivion and Spore combined to a choose your own adventure novel.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm actually kinda happy to see PC devs branching out like the are now and console developers are doing the same. I don't know if many forthcoming console action games will appear on PC, but things like Devil May Cry 4 are a lifeline to PC gaming, I was happy to get a change to play the Deus Ex games because I never have a good PC.

FFXI was made for the PS2, Square had multiplatform intentions behind this at first. It was Sonys screw-up on FFXI and the HDD - which was a rather large one screw up as they go - that made Square stop being Sony's lapdog, let Enix buy majority shares and really get moving on being a premiere third party again. Now Nintendo, MS and PC gamers get thier games.

I have every intention on moving to another platform and new graphics would be cool, but i don't think its fair to the PS2 for SE to abandon support of PS2 just for the sake of a new graphics engine.

Go look at the summer releases for PS2, there's are some damn good games still on the way. I'm amazed that some of the forthcoming PS2 games rate higher my most-wanted than the 360 and PS3 ones.

Sure there is. Games have barely begun to cross the uncanny valley. Physics in most games have much room for improvement, as does interactivity. Even Shenmue's FREE system, which was way ahead of it's time (personally I still think it's better than any game I've seen) wasn't fully interactive. In the future, a game might let you pick up a box, put it down outside your garage, and climb onto the roof. Not because you need to to be able to progress in the game, but because you can. AI has a huge way to go, you can bet your hide that AI will take a lot of processing power in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if 15 years from now we weren't using our headsets to issue commands Ala SOCOM, but we use them to have a chat with NPCs.

...

I talk about there not being much further to go with graphics and your counterargument is AI and gameplay devices? Technology can lift the thresholds of some game designs, but ingenuity and thinking out of the box has almost as much to do with it.

We've hit photo-realism with PS3. The human eye can only percieve so much further and its going to be art direction - not graphics technology itself - that drives the visual. But we were kinda already there.

I mean, Tekken characters look like the concept art now, they no longer are blocky, polygonal visages of the concept art. If you've seen Fire Emblem for Wii, you can't get much closer to the art concepts than they have in-game. Its pretty impressive stuff. Even the FFVII PS3 tech demo wasn't too far-removed from Advent Children visually.

Will animations, framrate, AI and such improve? Sure, that's a different matter. But are people going to drop $700 on the future consoles when the graphics just don't leap ahead the same way they did this time?

I doubt it. Just look at PS3 now and look what's outselling it - a weaker, cheaper system. Apparently people can live without the graphics, it was proven several times over with Game Boy, now DS and Wii are proving again that you don't have to be cutting-edge and blinged out to be top dog.

[nickofearth]

As far as I know/am concerned. SE delayed the HDD to keep FFXI from owning EQOA:Frontiers for the holidays. They decided against giving us what they said we'd get (internet browser and demos) Then it didn't get much support. End result HDD dies. ><

[Feba]

I talk about there not being much further to go with graphics and your counterargument is AI and gameplay devices? You said graphics *and realism*. Big difference. I touched on the graphics point, but my main point was realism.

We've hit photo-realism with PS3.
I disagree. PS3 games look pretty, yes, but they're still notably different from real life. Remember that most games look good by using shortcuts, like matchhead crowds, not actually being detailed. Like I said, we've barely reached the uncanny valley. Between that and realism is a giant gap. When your character's haircut doesn't change it from HAIRSTYLE_AFR to HAIRSTYLE_MHK but changes the hairs according to how it's cut, have some realism in it. I'm sure we've all had a time or another where we go in for a hair cut, it looks fine when we get it, then we wake up the next day and it looks like crap- that's realism.

How many times in video games do you walk into a building that really seems realistic to you? offices with nearly clutter free desks except a book here or a notepad there. Cabins with the same foldout posted up next to each other a few times in a row. Lockers that have one or two things in them, compared to how many things you'd actually have in a locker. I know I've personally never wandered into a room in video games that looks anywhere near a room someone other than a clean freak would actually live in. I also know that if there's something on the floor, I don't jump over it, I make a big step. Yes, this isn't all due to graphics power, but a lot of it is, and there's a huge way to go until you're able to walk over to a magazine on a desk, open it up, and feel like it's an actual magazine.

[Murphie]

My hair cuts always look awesome.

[Akashimo]

I'm surpised the topic of realism hasn't turned to good old scifi dreaming yet(*cough*holodeck*cough*) Far as I see,(demos in store alone & drooling at them), PS3 and 360 both look like they can push the borders of what games can/can't do in terms of graphics, but whats the point if the price and quaility of game play isn't there? When I first gotten FFXI on the pc, the opening movie won me in an instant and peaked my curiousity. Character creation was, amazing, at that time. Entering the game for the first time and exploring all the areas, I absolutely loved it all. With exception to majority of Sea areas, Salavage and Enj thingy, there is little areas I haven't gone to just for graphic curiousity. But things such as the Missions, af quests and story behind ballista/brenner is what really hits and keeps me playing(assuming social element is completely agreeable therefore didn't need to metion). Content > graphics.

[Kailea]

As far as I know/am concerned. SE delayed the HDD to keep FFXI from owning EQOA:Frontiers for the holidays. They decided against giving us what they said we'd get (internet browser and demos) Then it didn't get much support. End result HDD dies. ><


Thats Sony's doing not SE's

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

As far as I know/am concerned. SE delayed the HDD to keep FFXI from owning EQOA:Frontiers for the holidays. They decided against giving us what they said we'd get (internet browser and demos) Then it didn't get much support. End result HDD dies. ><

HDD was Sony's product and Sony treated EQOA like a red-headed stepchild in order to make FFXI look way more appealing. EQOA was actually a pretty fun game once you got past the graphics and a lot of what EQ2 players enjoy now came out of the trial and errors of that product.

Sony dropped the ball in acquiring the resources to make the HDDs, they failed to support the product and give developer incentive to take advantage of its games. FFXI, the Resident Evil Outbreak games and Sega 2k Sports title were the only games to really take advantage of the HDD's features.

When Sony stopped supporting the HDD, thus not supporting a huge project Square created exclusively for thier system, Square stopped being 100% exclusive with Sony. They made a studio with Nintendo, let Enix become their main shareholder and moved into PC and multiplatform development. I'm sure the Enix side had much to do with it as well, as did Nintendo's dominance in the handheld market.

What boggles my mind is even after the HDD mistakes made last generation on Xbox and PS2, HDD support remains optional on 360 and PS3. Pretty stupid, if you ask me, not many developers will take advantage of the HDD for the reason of it being optional.

[nickofearth]

Gah, I havne't been getting much sleep lately. I meant Sony lol. I really hope you knew I meant Sony too giving what my post said( FFXI vs. EQOA:Frontiers.) Of course from the sounds of your posts, you didn't.

[PhiberOpticks]

I highly doubt that PC gaming will ever die. This is because the direct of consoles is going more towards multimedia, and becoming more like specialized PCs every generation. Shit, you can already surf the internet. That's a start, at least.

the PS2 is a dead system.
Hardly. Most playstation gamers aren't taking the next step up because of the ridiculously high price. Besides, the PS2 is still getting hot titles. In fact, I just picked up God of War 2 last month. Great game. It's not quite dead yet.