Is time mage a posibility in Wings of the Goddess?

[Shadowneko]

Ok almost nothing is known about the new expansion but I got to thinking that Time Mage could be a logical choice if you wanted to add a new job with the new expasion. I know that some of the spells exist under WHM and BLM but my thoughts are in are more of the cosimc spell archtype for party spells:

Stardust
Comet
Ultmia
Age (in FFXI as a debuff used by certian undead things)
Demisional-type spells

...ok so not much stuff(but it had the potential to become another support/DD job)...my main idea is that the job could have some sort of "Time Teleport". Say you needed to get to the past ares fast the could Time-tele-dem or something XD

I'm probabaly just being silly but if you feel like discussing this just write. I'd also like to see more funny exapsion questions XD

[Callisto]

The only problem I would see is the job taking away from RDM and BRD utility, but it would be fun to see some non-elemental nukes, and maybe have Meteor finally be a usable spell. Most of the debuff end that is usually associated with FF Time Mages(like in tactics/FFV) is already accounted for by RDM/BRD/WHM/SMN/NIN though, so they would have to be a bit creative to make it be functional in its own way without screwing over the existing jobs.

[Murphie]

So why is this in the question section then?

[LoneGamer]

Everything that is part of the usual Time/Space Mage, apart from Demi and Comet/Meteo, is already part of White, Black, and Red Mages. Why add a new class for it?

[KingOfZeal]

Also, requiring a specific job in order to access areas is just plain wrong. No other zone requires you to have a specific one to access, which shouldn't be confused with jobs that are preferred to make accessing the zone go easier (like SMN in promys)

[Malacite]

While the job is a possibility in the future (and admittedly, in perfect in a time travel expansion) I don't see it happening.

most of the jobs spells are covered by the mages we have now, and more importantly SE seems to have a formula they follow;

Assuming they stick to their formula, this expansion should be another CoP; lots of story content, new areas and items etc but no jobs.

[Lilani]

The only problem I would see is the job taking away from RDM and BRD utility, but it would be fun to see some non-elemental nukes, and maybe have Meteor finally be a usable spell. Most of the debuff end that is usually associated with FF Time Mages(like in tactics/FFV) is already accounted for by RDM/BRD/WHM/SMN/NIN though, so they would have to be a bit creative to make it be functional in its own way without screwing over the existing jobs.
I completely agree with you. RDMs and BRDs held their breath when COR was first described, with all its support and enfeebling spells. I can't imagine what another enfeebler would make them do.

And, honestly, we already have the basics of time magic covered. Slow, haste, bind, paralyze, stun...apart from those non elemental nukes, I can't see how much further they can go with it. The only other thing I can *possibly* see them doing is drastically lowering the level and MP cost of those spells for Time Mage, or some teleport spell that transports them a certain number of yards away.

I think that if they do add a new job, I'd say it would be either a strong DD that has soloing possibilities, or a full on solo job. And I would think it would have some roots in the new storyline.

[Shadowneko]

Also, requiring a specific job in order to access areas is just plain wrong. No other zone requires you to have a specific one to access, which shouldn't be confused with jobs that are preferred to make accessing the zone go easier (like SMN in promys)

Umm...I never said you had to have time mage...I just said it'd be fun if they gave the job an easy way to warp people into the past like Warp 2 or the teleports.


also for the rest of you: There's plenty of job overlaps so far...another one proabably won't hurt XD

[Mhurron]

It's just as possible as it is that you will now be able to play as the beastmen forces.

Hooray for wild, baseless speculations!

[Feba]

The thing is, a time mage wouldn't really bring anything new to FFXI. COR brought luck and gambling, BLU brought customization and learning, even PUPs are fairly unique.

[KingOfZeal]

The thing is, a time mage wouldn't really bring anything new to FFXI. COR brought luck and gambling, BLU brought customization and learning, even PUPs are fairly unique.
Feba, as much as I hate to say it, you are completely right in this.

[Taskmage]

Moved to general discussion.

Like others have said, Time Mage seems like a perfect fit given what we know about the expansion so far, but I don't really see what kind of unique niche it would fill. Overlap is one thing, but the mage jobs we have occupy pretty much every space on the DD-support spectrum.

[Amele]

there are two dev teams that work on content and programming for FFXI expansions.

one of these teams has added new jobs to the game.

one of these teams has not. guess which team was assigned wings of the goddess?


the likelihood of there being *any* new jobs in Wings is very low. the likelihood of Time mage being one of those jobs if they even add them is lower still (there's two or three other jobs in the classic FF joblist that would actually bring unique abilities to the table that I would expect to see first.)

that said: don't be surprised if they add blm/whm/rdm/brd/smn set and or a jse for one of those jobs that looks suspiciously like time mage AF or something.

[KingOfZeal]

I can see it now: a full green outfit with an hourglass on the front.

Also, I'm going to say that your comparison there is flawed. We can all agree that there are two dev teams, as you say, and that one has produced jobs and the other hasn't. However, keep in mind that only 3 expansions have been released (4 counting the original). Of those 4, only one hasn't had any jobs: Chains of Promathia. Just because the one expansion they worked on didn't have jobs, doesn't mean that they can't (or won't) add new jobs in this one.

Just don't read that as me thinking new jobs will be added. I am personally am of the opinion that there won't. I just think that the argument you use there is flawed, and I like playing Devil's Advocate.

[Mhurron]

Time Mage seems like a perfect fit given what we know about the expansion so far
Which is nothing, people have just assumed time travel.

[Malacite]

Or maybe that goofy costume from FFT?

[Shadowneko]

no no...didn't you hear red pointy hats are in this year XD

Seriously the uniquness of the job would probabaly be with Non-elemental nukes that get around the elemantl resiance factor. There's also room in the cosmic magic archtpye for new/different buffs and deuffs.

Wild speculation? Heck ya! we could use abit more of it!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Which is nothing, people have just assumed time travel.

I don't think they'd pan camera shots of current zones looking as they did in the past they didn't intend for us to go back in time or at least magically enter someone's memories of the past to explore them. That or the present is merging with the past and you've got to stop that.

Its one of those. I don't think the assumptions are entirely baseless,

I don't know what the hell you keep beating your dead horse. Let people have fun with thier imaginations. We get that you're an unimaginative grump, you can stop now.

[Feba]

I'm saying that the gameplay would be the same. BLU, COR, and PUP are significantly different. The big things time mage could do to be different would be impossible to implement without breaking the game.

[BurningPanther]

Odds are our amazing time magic will come from none other than Abdhaljs, that fella who seems to have mastered the Mini spell, bringing us Diorama-based Ballista, as well as perhaps mastering numerous other magic he's too boss to tell us about. I'm willing to bet that, through Abdhaljs' temporal manipulations, we do our time-hopping.

[Mhurron]

I don't think they'd pan camera shots of current zones looking as they did in the pastOr in the future. Its been what, 20 years since the Crystal war when you start the game, yet nothing is done about the ruin in these zones? Either is as possible as the other but people have fixated on one with no more proof then the other. That is by definition, baseless.

Hell it could be the beastmen forces are reorganizing and the various countries have to rebuild their fortifications. It could be any number of things that are not time travel.

Now this however:That or the present is merging with the pastIs new and at least a better idea then straight out time travel.

I don't know what the hell you keep beating your dead horse.
What else am I going to do with it?

[Feba]

What else am I going to do with it?

Necrozoophilia?

[Amele]

Also, I'm going to say that your comparison there is flawed. We can all agree that there are two dev teams, as you say, and that one has produced jobs and the other hasn't. However, keep in mind that only 3 expansions have been released (4 counting the original). Of those 4, only one hasn't had any jobs: Chains of Promathia. Just because the one expansion they worked on didn't have jobs, doesn't mean that they can't (or won't) add new jobs in this one.

not sure why you think it's flawed, except that maybe I was making the argument by implication and being somewhat Socratic; so here: likelihood of success scenario

you have two teams, one has already introduced 33% of the jobs in the game, via expansion, successfully (ok, so two of the jobs were/are huge jokes.) and have experience integrating extra jobs into content and storyline -and balancing them against other jobs already in the game-

the other team has never introduced a new job, focusing instead on storylines and challenging battlefields.

the first team is still busy working on toau. the second team is largely done except for the little NM we all adoringly call 'AV'.

the subscriber base for you game has held steady for ~3 years and your expansion sales have slowly risen, so it's safe to bet this is not your last expansion.

would you, as manager of this product, tell team 2 to do something they had no expertise in whatsoever, when you could instead wait 18 months and give the project to team 1, confident that team 2 will make a product that will sustain the line until then?

They won't add new jobs in the next expansion, I'll eat my hat if they do.

[Omniblast]

They won't add new jobs in the next expansion, I'll eat my hat if they do.

I'm going to quote you on that, just so you can't go a re-edit what you said.
BTW, what kind of hat do you have? I hope it's a big leather cowboy hat.

[Raydeus]

May I suggest buying a Sombrero made of nachos? :thumbsup:

[Sevv]

I'm going to quote you on that, just so you can't go a re-edit what you said.
BTW, what kind of hat do you have? I hope it's a big cheese cowboy hat.


http://wvls.lib.wi.us/Newsletter/heather_hats/CowboyCheeseHat.jpg

[Amele]

I'm going to quote you on that, just so you can't go a re-edit what you said.
BTW, what kind of hat do you have? I hope it's a big leather cowboy hat.

Wisconsin, so cheese *grins*

[Anaki]

how i see time mage is as a unique enfeebler and debuffer. one of there spells could be rust at which it lowers a target base damage. and then there would be a counter version of the spell that increases a weapons base damage. since really when a weapon is brand new it would be stronger then after being battle worn o.O

[Feba]

New spells != Unique job.

EDIT: Also, you basically just described Bio and erase

[Emerald Melios]

Everything that is part of the usual Time/Space Mage, apart from Demi and Comet/Meteo, is already part of White, Black, and Red Mages. Why add a new class for it?

Why did they add Dragoon & Samurai when there were already a number of DD classes in the original game?

[Feba]

Because they added new playstyles to the game. Having to manage hate and use your wyvern effectively is different, as is being a TP fountain that works for the rest of the party.

[Murphie]

Why did they add Dragoon & Samurai when there were already a number of DD classes in the original game?Because they didn't have classes that did what Dragoon and Samurai do. I'm not sure why you would think that DRG and SAM are anything like WAR or MNK or DRK.

[Malacite]

There was a quote from someone at the Square Enix party where they confirmed that yes, it is a time travel themed expansion.


Time mage would be nifty, but there's much better choices;

Geomancer, Dancer, Mystic Knight (dear god yes) and Chemist to name IMO the best/most unique choices.

I'm currently working on some builds for those classes I'd like to submit to SE, or at the very least get some public opinion on. Basically here's what I got atm;



Geomancer: Would either have a list of spells learned from battling in certain areas, or would simply have a geomancy command with a fairly low timer (30s to 1 min max) that would generate a random effect based on terrain. Weather will now affect geomancy as it is a new feature unique to FFXI (as a part of the FF series I mean) and adds a whole new dimension to the job. Bells could also be brought back as equipment (either in the weapon or ranged slot)

Dancer would work the same way as bard, but would equip whips and those weird clamp thingies gypsie (sp?) dancers use (sorry, the name escapes me but you can hold on in each hand and you clap them to make sounds). Maybe even maracas for fun. Their music would focus chiefly on debuffing the mob in unique ways such as MP DoT while possibly having the odd buff here and there (like how BRD has 3 enfeebs).

I'm amazed Dancer wasn't in ToAU (or Mystic Knight for that matter) given the arabian setting. But then I doubt SE would want to have any kind of Harem scenario in Alzhabi > - > (hello M rating, even if it's only implied)

Mystic Knight is a bit trickier, especially in terms of game balance. in FFV their spells were based on magic you already knew and your physical attacks were "converted" into spells. However, your STR and weapon damage rating still came into the damage calculation (unless it's an enfeeb, in which case you always do 0 damage and try to land the enfeeb)

RDM having enspells does not disqualify this class. Enspells are a complete joke by comparison, and I would deeply love to have this classic Tank/DD class come back. The trick would be in balancing it's MP and spell blade costs/recasts so that you can't abuse the inherent power of the job.

Basically the job would have A+ enhancing magic, and each spellblade would be made into new scrolls (with the exception of Ga spells; no AoE melee that's a bad AoE melee!) I think it would give all the people (like myself) who are craving for a real mage-fighter what they want. BLU is already a very good mage-fighter, but it doesn't use it's magic to directly enhance it's melee.


Lasty there's Chemist.

Basically a "money WHM", the job would have limited access to guns (ala COR) but without any inherent DD traits to back it up, so as not to rival RNG or COR in terms of DD. The main purpose would be to act as a substitute for WHM/RDM who can also do some damage on the side if s/he isn't busy.

This job would be ideal in a TP burn setting I think, and best of all it would drive up the demand for medicines and give all us starving alchemists a nice cash flow. It would also give SE an excuse to make potions cheap and/or stack to 99 and finally add Phoenix downs as an item (usable only by CHM)

[Lunaryn]

Because they didn't have classes that did what Dragoon and Samurai do. I'm not sure why you would think that DRG and SAM are anything like WAR or MNK or DRK.
I think this speaks more to the implementation of mages as being relatively flat compared to melee. The expansion's new mage jobs have avoided similarity problems in part by introducing entirely new mechanics and in part by hybridizing them with existing melee mechanics (Blue Mage being a far more capable front-line DD than Red Mage, Corsair sharing in the marksmanship proficiencies of Ranger).

The viability of a new mage job is going to be less a matter of what spells that job can bring to the table and more a matter of what mechanics are invented to give that job a unique method of operation.

[Murphie]

I think this speaks more to the implementation of mages as being relatively flat compared to melee. The expansion's new mage jobs have avoided similarity problems in part by introducing entirely new mechanics and in part by hybridizing them with existing melee mechanics (Blue Mage being a far more capable front-line DD than Red Mage, Corsair sharing in the marksmanship proficiencies of Ranger).

The viability of a new mage job is going to be less a matter of what spells that job can bring to the table and more a matter of what mechanics are invented to give that job a unique method of operation.True. But then again, I wouldn't exactly consider COR to be a mage. Still, they were able to create a new job that did things in a new way, and thus avoided making COR redundant. If they can manage to do that in the future with any other new jobs, great. If not, then I'd rather they didn't bother.

So many people seem to offer up these job ideas without first answering the question of whether or not their idea is really needed. Do we need a mage that specializes in time magic? Not really. As has already been pointed out, other mages that currently exist can do most everything that a Time Mage could, with a handful of exceptions. I know people like the idea of new jobs, and new AF, and all of that, but there isn't any reason why every single job that has ever existed in a Final Fantasy game has to be in FFXI.

[Lunaryn]

True. But then again, I wouldn't exactly consider COR to be a mage. Still, they were able to create a new job that did things in a new way, and thus avoided making COR redundant. If they can manage to do that in the future with any other new jobs, great. If not, then I'd rather they didn't bother.
So many people seem to offer up these job ideas without first answering the question of whether or not their idea is really needed. Do we need a mage that specializes in time magic? Not really. As has already been pointed out, other mages that currently exist can do most everything that a Time Mage could, with a handful of exceptions. I know people like the idea of new jobs, and new AF, and all of that, but there isn't any reason why every single job that has ever existed in a Final Fantasy game has to be in FFXI.
I think the best way to examine it is not so much testing the absense of the basic themes of a particular FF job wrt FFXI's job collection overall, but rather exploring what new themes that job can inspire and some proposed mechanics to carry those themes and how those proposed mechanics would complement or overlap the existing job implementations. So far I haven't seen any real speculation on this point, only a simple listing of traditional spacetime spells citing which have or have not already been implemented in FFXI. I believe the OP was hoping to inspire some creativity, even though not very much was offered to start with; even less has followed, with the exception of some suggestion of possible implementations of other jobs.

The biggest obstacle to some of the more obvious ways to provide a unique implementation is that FFXI is a realtime game, so things that would make the flow of combat significantly non-linear would not seem particularly feasible. Even though a time-travel-oriented expansion might provide ways to bend this a little, job abilities which are mission-specific are an obvious non-starter in a game where jobs are leveled individually.

However, on the time side of things, there might be some options to consider with regard to producing effects on a time delay, with consequences as rudimentary as being able to magic-burst two spells on the same chain (one of which was cast in advance but delayed) to more sophisticated options such as THF-style hate control (e.g. a time-delayed spell could momentarily turn a mob in the direction you previously were standing after you moved, or even look like it came from another person standing near where you were).

On the space side of things, the most obvious option that seems particularly viable would be along the lines of the ability to decrease or increase a target's AoE ranges by a certain factor. Non-elemental damage has also been mentioned (and I think DoT may be more appropriate than nukes for a lot of this), and there may even be something to be said for the kiting potential of a job capable of producing prepared distractions along their path. Erecting barriers or obscuring battle is also a thought, perhaps in terms of link/aggro control/avoidance, or perhaps even in protecting the back line from stray hate, though care would need to be taken to avoid damaging the game balance or allowing this job to become a perceived absolute necessity by way of too perfect a defense in either role.

This is not meant to represent how I think Time Mage will or should appear in FFXI, but rather in the hopes that it might be a springboard for greater discussion of what the job could or could not be and what it might represent as a concept.

[Murphie]

Personally, I'm not of the opinion that further discussion is at all necessary. I guess for fun, but honestly, I don't find it all that engaging.

Then again, it's clear that a lot of other people do think it's both enjoyable and necessary (for some reason), so I'll leave them to it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think this speaks more to the implementation of mages as being relatively flat compared to melee. The expansion's new mage jobs have avoided similarity problems in part by introducing entirely new mechanics and in part by hybridizing them with existing melee mechanics (Blue Mage being a far more capable front-line DD than Red Mage, Corsair sharing in the marksmanship proficiencies of Ranger).

The viability of a new mage job is going to be less a matter of what spells that job can bring to the table and more a matter of what mechanics are invented to give that job a unique method of operation.

First you call COR a mage... (Support class=/= mage)
Then you call it a hybrid... (its gambler)

/gets out the Coffinmaker.

Run.

[Emerald Melios]

Because they didn't have classes that did what Dragoon and Samurai do. I'm not sure why you would think that DRG and SAM are anything like WAR or MNK or DRK.


....because they fight on the front-lines and (normally) use weaponskills?

[Murphie]

....because they fight on the front-lines and (normally) use weaponskills?Is this a question? If so it's not a very well thought out one. If it's an attempt to give a snotty reply, it's also not very well thought out.

If the only thing that defined the various melee jobs was fighting on the front line and using weapon skills then you might have a point, but it's not, so you don't.

Try again.

[DieselBoy09]

Honestly I can't see them add any more jobs. We already have a lot, and many of them are being wasted.

[robinkle]

Does Time mage need to be just like in FFT?

I think time mage can be a success in the game, they just got to make it suitable for the game.

By thinking of the word "time". I think teleport, time machine, clock, slow, haste.

Time mage could for example be a healer. where by casting a spell on a party member, it would put you back in to an earlier state lets say 10 sec ago or back to the HP the pt member had before he got hit last time. Means the TIM (Time mage :P) gotta pay attention.

Or maby a spell to put the mp back to earlier state too. maby status effects too.

An ability or spell that makes you pop up behind the enemy.
Maby good with thf sub. what if time mage could use a decent weapon for that. Maby an entierly new weapon., a sledge hammer maby sort of a 2 handed club/hammer. where the WS can have temporarily effects like: "Stop" "Death" "Lvl Down." on top of the regular WS dmg.
When you pop up behind enemy you can loose emnity for example, so its usefull even without THF sub.

An ability/spell that boost the lvl of party a member temporarily.
Would be fun to see lvl 78 on the menu once in a while.
With a penalty for exp. Hoping it will go back before enemy dies.. or so that the pt member can cancel it on top of the screen.
Could be usefull against other things, like gods or something else big.

A spell/ability called rush or something, that cuts down ability timers unlike haste that cuts down magic timers.

Slow Cast. a spell that makes the magic casting time of the enemy go slower.

2hr could be anything: Haste and Rush the party. Or Make party pop up behind the enemy and loose emnity, so enemy despawns. endless possibilities.

I dont think this would have any effect on WHM and RDM. well at least not more then what BLU did. At least if TIM can work as both DD and mage. (players would like to be DD anyways).

[Lunaryn]

First you call COR a mage... (Support class=/= mage)
Then you call it a hybrid... (its gambler)
/gets out the Coffinmaker.
Run.
I'm attempting to draw a broad distinction between melee and mage/caster jobs (similar to the rough and somewhat imperfect distinction in FFT between jobs descended from Squire vs. jobs descended from Chemist). COR represents a caster job in that its primary mechanic is a form of spellcasting (in this same vein, BRD and NIN are also caster jobs, despite having radically different roles from each other and significantly different implementations from the classic mage jobs). This is imperfect in pure mechanic terms since rolls are accessed via a JA rather than the magic menu, but the implementation is still significantly reminiscent of spells (and the restriction imposed by JA activation is reminiscent of bloodpacts).

NIN would of course be an example of a hybrid here that comes down pretty heavily on the melee side in terms of effective focus (despite having only one unique melee mechanic, dual wield), but its caster component is still absolutely vital to effective use of the job.

[Shadowneko]

Lasty there's Chemist.

Basically a "money WHM", the job would have limited access to guns (ala COR) but without any inherent DD traits to back it up, so as not to rival RNG or COR in terms of DD. The main purpose would be to act as a substitute for WHM/RDM who can also do some damage on the side if s/he isn't busy.

This job would be ideal in a TP burn setting I think, and best of all it would drive up the demand for medicines and give all us starving alchemists a nice cash flow. It would also give SE an excuse to make potions cheap and/or stack to 99 and finally add Phoenix downs as an item (usable only by CHM)

If you wana do Chemist/alchemist you forgot about the "mix" command(used in many an FF game). Instead of just medicines(although I can see using things like poision pots and Anima) you just have this as a JA with a recast time of like say a cure spell. Then you can just have tools and/or special items that stack to 99. A smart chemist would mix up some fun combination effects such as casting 2 buffs at once or even mix up thing like Anima with tools to hurt the mob. A mix list would be neccary to learn the right combinations, but I would also put level limits on certain combos...say a lvl 1 chemist can't mix up the same killer combos as a 75 chemist...but that's entirely posible ^^



For the rest of you: fun discussion ^^(I need to come up with weird stuff more often)

[Ziero]

First off, in answer to the OPs question, yes Time Mage is a possibility. Right now everything is possible because we know so little. Time Mage being probable is another story all together.

To those who say it's 'not needed', well Blu isn't needed, Cor isn't needed, Smn isn't needed, Sam and Drg weren't needed. And yet, here they all are. Because they were *wanted*. There's absolutely no reason not to add new jobs into this game because being able to be every job with one character is one of it's biggest features. Not adding new jobs over time is basically ignoring that feature while telling it's players, who are specifically asking for these jobs, to f' off. There will be new jobs in time, whether it's this update or the next, it's all a matter of time.

And to the one who said new spells didn't make a job unique, Blm, Whm and Rdm all work the same *except* they each have unique spells to let them do something different then the others. Having a few spells overlap, and really the only spell I see causing any trouble towards having a Time Mage in game is slow II, does not mean a new job who focuses and excels in said type of spells can't exist. Every job added will fall into only so many categories, it will either cause large amounts of damage, keep the monsters attention to protect other classes or support the other jobs. Some classes may overlap between those three functions, but every job does at least one of those things.

Melee DDs are interchangable, a Drg can replace a Sam who can replace a War. Mages have a bit more desirability because there are so few who can replace each other, but if need be a Whm can be replaced by a Smn who can be replaced by a Rdm who can even be replaced by a willing Blm if need be. Because there are only so many functions needed in a party to be filled, and far more jobs that can fill that slot, overlapping of functions is gaurenteed to happen. So in that sense, not being 'unique' in function does not automatically disgard a job's viability to be added in this game.

And though it hasn't been said yet, it's almost inevitable that it will be in topics like this, current in game job imbalances should not prevent new jobs from being added. If a perfect measure of job balance were needed before adding a new job, then we would never get any new jobs because they can never be perfectly balanced. There will always be a 'better' class and there will always be a 'worst' class as determined by the players themselves. Even if it's only by a slight margin, players will always be able to tell which is the strongest and which is the weakest.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

RDMs and BRDs held their breath when COR was first described, with all its support and enfeebling spells. I can't imagine what another enfeebler would make them do.
If SE added another support job along the lines of what a RDM or BRD could do, it really wouldn't affect the usefulness of RDM and BRD. It's not like all the RDMs and BRDs out there would start losing invites because of the new job. You never lose an invite to another job... you lose it to another player.

The reason there are always so many DDs seeking and not enough supports isn't because there aren't enough support role jobs in the game. It's because most players find those support jobs to be boring, and just don't want to play them.

[Feba]

Blm, Whm and Rdm all work the same *except* they each have unique spells to let them do something different then the others.Uh-huh, they're starter jobs, they're supposed to be simple. Like someone else mentioned, SE really has worked themselves into a corner with the way mages work in FFXI.

Look at the nonstandard jobs, they are significantly different.
BRD- Buffs the party without using MP, uses a wide collection of instruments to enhance it's spells
BST- Controls animals to help them fight
PLD- Uses spells to keep the monster on itself while mitigating damage
DRK- Does a lot of damage, but at the expense of generating a lot of hate which it can't manage, so has to be used carefully.
NIN- Spells without MP, but at the cost of items (money), uses shadows to mitigate the hate it earns (of course, this is exploited, but still)
DRG- Uses jumps to control hate, uses subjob to manage a Wyvern
SAM- generates a lot of TP for the party to use
COR- Buffs without MP, but at the cost of randomness, or even harming the party.
BLU- Has to change it's spells around and plan out what it wants to cast, it able to change it's abilities to perform a wide collection of tasks
PUP- Has to change out items to affect the way it's pet will act

As you can see, yes, there is a lot of overlapping, like BLU PUP and DRG all being able to customize themselves, or BRD COR and NIN casting spells without MP, but they all play differently. As to jobs performing the same function, in a simplified way yes, but they accomplish that function in different ways. The second you start releasing jobs that are just recycled RDMs with different stats and spells is the second you might as well replace the Job system with a skill tree.

[Amele]

The reason there are always so many DDs seeking and not enough supports isn't because there aren't enough support role jobs in the game. It's because most players find those support jobs to be boring, and just don't want to play them.

well.. yes, and.. no.

waaaayy back in the day (pre-bard acceptance) the standard exp party in the 50's was:

tank DD DD DD healer support (with one of the DD frequently being a blackmage for crabs).

then bards got accepted as omg awesome by the NA player base, and gradually the 'standard' exp party in the 50's started to look more like:

tank DD DD healer support support. - when two support weren't available, (and at endgame) it was more common to go: tank DD DD DD support/healer, support.

in the brave new world of AU (in the 50's) you now have 33% more jobs available to fill support roles, so the tank DD DD healer support support pattern is more prevalent. - I've even been part of parties that were - nin/war sam/war cor brd brd smn which was highly successful - but basically excludes a very large swath of DD and healer jobs.

this means that a significantly smaller number of DD are being invited to exp than before, even in areas that aren't Colibri/Puk. etc.

add *another* support (and one which would presumably have both haste and hp/mp recovery abilities) and the number of DD invited will be even lower, because the 3 support party will be even more viable.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Feba, since when do CORs buffs "harm" a PT? Its not like SE gives the PT Joker Doom if we bust.

The bust only affects the COR and the Bust effect is opposite that of the unlucky number's buff. Unlucky = weakest buff is reversed on COR, a busted Hunter's Roll would result in slightly diminished accuracy).The PT misses a buff for a minute, that's the negative for them if that's really a major negative at all.

As for the "support classes are boring" bit... how so? They're by far the busiest jobs in the game.

[Callisto]

Feba, since when do CORs buffs "harm" a PT? Its not like SE gives the PT Joker Doom if we bust.

The bust only affects the COR and the Bust effect is opposite that of the unlucky number's buff. Unlucky = weakest buff is reversed on COR, a busted Hunter's Roll would result in slightly diminished accuracy).The PT misses a buff for a minute, that's the negative for them if that's really a major negative at all.

Correct. And no comment on RDM being a 'simple' job lol, my macros and 50+ pieces of gear I lug around would indicate otherwise. :wasted:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah just because RDM gets easy invites doesn't make it simple.

RDM is like running around with a stack of plates, trying not to drop them while you run. Except what you are running on is hot coals and you are being chased by cannibals unaffected by the hot coals. If you drop one plate, someone starts yelling "Dispel" or "refresh."

That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.

[Feba]

And no comment on RDM being a 'simple' job lol, my macros and 50+ pieces of gear I lug around would indicate otherwise.I'm saying the concept is simple, not always playing it.
Feba, since when do CORs buffs "harm" a PT? Its not like SE gives the PT Joker Doom if we bust. A support job that isn't supporting the party (as in a bust) is effectively dead weight, so you're holding the party back and harming it's experience. Of course, I actually do like the COR job, but saying that it doesn't harm the party at all to bust is incorrect.

[Ziero]

Look at the nonstandard jobs, they are significantly different.
BRD- Buffs the party without using MP, uses a wide collection of instruments to enhance it's spells
BST- Controls animals to help them fight
PLD- Uses spells to keep the monster on itself while mitigating damage
DRK- Does a lot of damage, but at the expense of generating a lot of hate which it can't manage, so has to be used carefully.
NIN- Spells without MP, but at the cost of items (money), uses shadows to mitigate the hate it earns (of course, this is exploited, but still)
DRG- Uses jumps to control hate, uses subjob to manage a Wyvern
SAM- generates a lot of TP for the party to use
COR- Buffs without MP, but at the cost of randomness, or even harming the party.
BLU- Has to change it's spells around and plan out what it wants to cast, it able to change it's abilities to perform a wide collection of tasks
PUP- Has to change out items to affect the way it's pet will act

As you can see, yes, there is a lot of overlapping, like BLU PUP and DRG all being able to customize themselves, or BRD COR and NIN casting spells without MP, but they all play differently. As to jobs performing the same function, in a simplified way yes, but they accomplish that function in different ways. The second you start releasing jobs that are just recycled RDMs with different stats and spells is the second you might as well replace the Job system with a skill tree.

And a Time Mage could be a strong damage dealer using non elemental spells (something no other job has making them different) while using unique debuffs to weaken the monster and have a few buffs for pt members. The type of spells it would use would make it more then unique enough to be included in this game, while being MP based would keep it similar to it's classic incarnations.

And again, the only thing that makes Whm, Rdm and Blm different from each other is the spells they can cast. Regardless of when they're available, that's all that makes them different. War, Thf and Mnk are all starter jobs too, but they're much different then each other. And though Sam, Drk and Drg are all 'advanced' jobs, they're all basically used the same exact way as War and Mnk. Drk, Mnk, Drg, Sam, and War don't have anything too drastically different about them other then their main weapon choices and a few JAs. They all focus on the same stats and the same goal in the pt, to kill the mob. The only differences is a few JAs and JTs, which is differences enough. Just like unique spells would be enough to make Timemage unique.

For a new job to be added sucessfully imo, it would need three things:

Functionality: It would have to be able to hold it's own in a party slot.
Balance: It couldn't be too overpowered or too weak.
Uniquness: It would have to have something that sets it apart from other jobs.

A Timemage could be functional by giving minor support, with decent enfeebling and Dmg dealing capabilities. Sort of like Cor does by being a decent DD and buffer with minor enfeebling abilities. It would be balanced similar to all other 'mage' jobs by having an MP pool, recast timers and soft caps on spell potency. And it would be unique by having it's own list of JSE spells as well as some 'repeat' spells already in game, while also having some unique JTs and JAs. Though it would work as other mages work, by casting spells based on spell timers and MP costs, it's effects would be different from other mage jobs.

[Murphie]

That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.No, that sounds about right.

Saying that support jobs are "boring" is probably not the best way to get the point across. Saying that support jobs don't do WTFPWN damage in a genre where a lot of people like to do WTFPWN damage is more accurate. Many people don't play support jobs because they don't like support roles. It's not a lack of jobs, it's a lack of interested players.

[Mhurron]

Yeah just because RDM gets easy invites doesn't make it simple.
RDM is like running around with a stack of plates, trying not to drop them while you run. Except what you are running on is hot coals and you are being chased by cannibals unaffected by the hot coals. If you drop one plate, someone starts yelling "Dispel" or "refresh."
That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.
I admit, I laughed. That was funny.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm saying the concept is simple, not always playing it.
A support job that isn't supporting the party (as in a bust) is effectively dead weight, so you're holding the party back and harming it's experience. Of course, I actually do like the COR job, but saying that it doesn't harm the party at all to bust is incorrect.

There a lot of BRDs in a constant state of Bust then.

Busting a roll just means ther isn't another buff for 30-45 seconds. That's hardly a deadweight. Double busts happen, true, but they are rather rare.

[Murphie]

I have to agree with BBQ here. I wouldn't say busting on a roll is analogous to a detrimental effect on the party. It doesn't make things better, but it also doesn't make the situation worse.

[Amele]

There a lot of BRDs in a constant state of Bust then.
Busting a roll just means ther isn't another buff for 30-45 seconds. That's hardly a deadweight. Double busts happen, true, but they are rather rare.

not sure why you're singling out bards here - honestly.

there's a difference between a bard picking the wrong song and a cor busting. the bard can replace that song - at will - 1 to 75. (which takes 8 seconds tops)

assuming you meant it as: "they aren't supporting the party (not singing songs)" then that's no different than a cor who doesn't make rolls, or a redmage who doesn't cast spells, or a tank who doesn't try to hold hate. that's not "Bust" (being a job issue making the party less effective) that's a deadweight player that should be dropped.

30-45 seconds without a buff is enough to possibly kill chain in some circumstances (I know I know, one buff shouldn't make the difference between infy chain and killing too slow for 6+ but if your kill times are close, the lost buff plus time lost rolling again could potentially put you on the wrong side of it) and double busts shouldn't happen unless 6 is unlucky on the second buff (are there any where six is unlucky?)

[Feba]

Busting a roll also means that you only have one buff on until Bust wears off, though.

Again, I'm not saying that COR is a deadweight job, I'm saying that when a COR busts, they aren't achieving their full potential (and same when they get anything other than a lucky roll or an 11), which changes how the job is played compared to a buffing job like BRD, where there's no real chance of failure. Not doing the maximum possible lowers the amount of EXP gained, which is harmful to a PT. Of course, nobody wants COR to get perfect rolls 100% of the time, as it would break the game and make the job bland.

[Callisto]

Yeah just because RDM gets easy invites doesn't make it simple.

RDM is like running around with a stack of plates, trying not to drop them while you run. Except what you are running on is hot coals and you are being chased by cannibals unaffected by the hot coals. If you drop one plate, someone starts yelling "Dispel" or "refresh."

That's what RDM is like, or maybe I was on drugs at the time.

You sir, win. You are awarded one(1) internets.

[Murphie]

Well, a RDM might not land an enfeeble, or a BLM might get resisted on nukes, or a BRD might not hit everyone with his songs, but I wouldn't accuse those people of being a drain on the party. It happens sometimes. Mind you, if it happened on a consistent basis, that's another story altogether. But that's not what we're talking about here.

[Feba]

Exactly, I'm not saying COR is a bad job class, I'm just saying thatthere's an uncontrollable element of luck. The BLM and RDM can increase their likelyhood of landing a spell through equipment, the BRD will be more consistent when he has more skill playing the job, but the COR has no way to control how the dice fall, which makes it's job significantly different.

[KingOfZeal]

You sir, win. You are awarded one(1) internets.

And a Cookie. Maybe even a dozen.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Busting a roll also means that you only have one buff on until Bust wears off, though.

Again, I'm not saying that COR is a deadweight job, I'm saying that when a COR busts, they aren't achieving their full potential (and same when they get anything other than a lucky roll or an 11), which changes how the job is played compared to a buffing job like BRD, where there's no real chance of failure. Not doing the maximum possible lowers the amount of EXP gained, which is harmful to a PT. Of course, nobody wants COR to get perfect rolls 100% of the time, as it would break the game and make the job bland.

Let me put it this way:

Let's say I roll a 1,2,3,6,7 or 9 on Evoker's Roll. This would land me the 1 MP per tick buff. 5 would give me MP a tick, which 8 and 10 would give me 2. 11 would get me.

But let's take it a step further and say I rolled the Unlucky 9: Crappy 1 MP a tick. Here are my options:

(1) I can bust outright and wait to roll again
(2) I can wait until just before the Recast on Double-up expires, then bust and only leave only 15 seconds of downtime before the next roll.
(2a) I might get lucky and land a 1 or 2 to get me a better buff and the mages still benefited from the 45 seconds on the 9 and now have a better MP a tick.
(3) Ghetto Fold - Run out of mage AoE range to bust myself, mages don't lose roll, but I risk missing out on the possibility of example 2a.
(4) Fold (75 meritted option) - I use Fold similar to how I busted in example 2.

Unless we're talking Double Bust status - which is at most 4 minutes where no Rolls are possible - its hard to gain downtime on COR.

Exactly, I'm not saying COR is a bad job class, I'm just saying thatthere's an uncontrollable element of luck. The BLM and RDM can increase their likelyhood of landing a spell through equipment, the BRD will be more consistent when he has more skill playing the job, but the COR has no way to control how the dice fall, which makes it's job significantly different.

We can't control the numbers, but there are noticablely different odds for different rolls and you can get a feel for the patterns as you level up. Some might study the statistics of it, but I don't bank on it too much now that I've come to understand the odds through play.

Additionally, most of the data on roll effects are out there, so all that's left to do is recognize what the best, worst and acceptable buff values are. Pet buffs are really the only ones that haven't been properly documented, but I know a 10 will take a 50 damage hit and raise it to 80 damage and that the lucky 4 will take it to 85-100

[Ziero]

What Feba's trying to say is the luck factor makes Cor unique in that it's the only job affected by that 'stat'. Where as the mage jobs can increase their chances of their buffs/spells landing, Cor can't and must rely on the 'roll of the dice' so to speak.

But the luck factor has always been what makes the Gambler Class unique. It's a nod to Cors previous incarnations through out FFXI history more then anything else. And what made Time Mage so unique when compared to White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage and Blue Mage through out the history is the *type* of spells they cast, not *how* they cast them. Time Mages don't need a revolutionary system of casting their spells, they just need a unique list of spells to cast.

[Feba]

What Feba's trying to say is the luck factor makes Cor unique in that it's the only job affected by that 'stat'. Where as the mage jobs can increase their chances of their buffs/spells landing, Cor can't and must rely on the 'roll of the dice' so to speak.

Thank you.

[Malacite]

>. > late reply I know, but I didn't forget about Mix. I was just giving a simple example of what the class could do. I've got a fully detailed post in mind that I'm in the middle of working over. I want to finalize everything before I post it on here.


That said, TIM is somewhat hosed by other jobs, most notably WHM. That is, unless SE wants to change the exclusivity of certain spells.


Spells TIM should have (if it were implemented)

- Refresh, Haste, Hastega, Haste II, Hastega II, Slow, Slowga, Slow II, Slowga II, Dia, Dia II, Dia III, Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Choke, Rasp, Shock, Drown, Burn, Frost, Diaga, Diaga II, Bioga, Bioga II, Comet, Meteor, Regen, Regen II, Regen III, Refresh, Teleport-(place name), Protect, Shell, Regain, etc...


Anything that relates to time/space (durr) such as DoT spells and even protection magic. But then the job would be stepping on the toes of quite a few other jobs so I don't know. If COR couldn't already reset 2 hours (by luck) I would have made TIM's 2-hour do just that, but it's already been done.

Instead maybe it could cut all recasts (abilities and spells) for 30-45 seconds? This would be freaking amazing for job's like SMN or BLM. A spell to hasten JA timers would rock too, but they'd have to be careful with that since we don't want people breaking two-hours.


It's up in the air, and we'll just have to wait and see what SE does. But I'm betting we won't see new jobs until the next expansion after WotG.

[Hantz]

Spells TIM should have (if it were implemented)

- Refresh, Haste, Hastega, Haste II, Hastega II, Slow, Slowga, Slow II, Slowga II, Dia, Dia II, Dia III, Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Choke, Rasp, Shock, Drown, Burn, Frost, Diaga, Diaga II, Bioga, Bioga II, Comet, Meteor, Regen, Regen II, Regen III, Refresh, Teleport-(place name), Protect, Shell, Regain, etc...

Now why include those? Elemental enfeebles should rightfully stay BLM exclusive, seeing as they have nothing to do with time/space. And the Dia and Bio families are light and dark elements, not time/space/nonelemental.

Just because they cause damage over time, doesn't make them "Time Magic." It doesn't make sense to include them, apart from beefing up their spell list.

[Feba]

Not to mention all of those spells are elemental. It would be a giant change to a lot of fundamental parts of the game to change that all around.

[Malacite]

Mainly because they're all damge over time spells. That's my only reason. Like I said, the job would potentially be stepping on the toes of other jobs.


Hey, in FF5 WHM couldn't get haste or regen, they were time spells. I forget about FFT...

[Feba]

Uh-huh, and this is FFXI, not FFV.

[Raydeus]

Meh, just give me Draw/Junction, GF summoning and a Gunblade. :thumbsup:

[Malacite]

Uh-huh, and this is FFXI, not FFV.


So what? They're still time-related spells. Besides, there's no official word on the job from SE so this is all speculation. I say have fun and run with it, it's the best way to get ideas on the table.