Hey. I have only been playing summoner for about a few days now, and i have been subbing black mage. My summoner level is now 15, but at level 12, i got invited into a party in the dunes. Being a galka i got some bursts of abuse thrown at mefor being a mage. That is not what botherd me. As soon as i got to the camp, one member of the party tells me to go back and sub white mage. Of course i say no but he then has a massive rant at me saying "Your not playing your job properly, Summoners are ment to sub white mage noob!"

This then led back to the point of me being a galka.
After this i lashed out in self defence saying "Well, Taru's arnt built to play a melee job!" This taru was a warior red mage.

My main rant realy is that many parties did not invite me in as i "not playing my job properly" Summoners in my opinion are not ment ot be white mages, were are ment to SUMMON avatars and spirits!

Yes i understand that most summoners do this to get party invites, but me personaly i hate the idea. And to get abuse thrown at me for not subbing white mage, i think is just plain wrong. This game can be played by anyone however they like, and i choose to sub black mage.

Ok, my rant is over thanks. :)

me personaly i hate the idea.
You may do what you want, but don't expect parties going /blm. SMN/BLM is next to useless in a party until SMN are actually invited as dd's, even then it's not an optimal setup. Before then, SMN is invited to heal.

Do what you want, but you can't get mad if you don't do what the party wants and they get rid of you for someone who does.

In my opinion ( level 75 smn )

Whm is the only viable sub job until end game.

I have tried to sub blm before, during my climb to 75, and believe me. there is more to contribute to the party if you are sub whm. (as sub blm, everything is way too gimped.)

But if you do not believe me, continue to use blm as your sub and see where it goes.

So, what do you do when you wait for the bloodpact timers? :rolleyes:

It is a long time solo to 75 unless you are prepared to work with parties. Smn is a good DD yes, and your time will come, but until you get there, it is often a support job.

Its not that they didnt want a sum/blm, its that i got abuse thrown at me for not wanting to change. Yea sometime i will change to whm if i want, but not if i get abuse thrown at me for not bacing it subbed in the first place.

So, what do you do when you wait for the bloodpact timers?

What i usualy do is throw in some nukes with the rest of my MP.

So, what do you do when you wait for the bloodpact timers? :rolleyes:

It is a long time solo to 75 unless you are prepared to work with parties. Smn is a good DD yes, and your time will come, but until you get there, it is often a support job.

Well that's obvious. You nuke as much as possible spending what little amount of mp you do have. Yay it's fun to nuke for 1 damage!

What i usualy do is throw in some nukes with the rest of my MP.
Hooray for no MP management and resisted nukes!

What i usualy do is throw in some nukes with the rest of my MP.At level 12 I'd believe that might be viable, but when you're level 30 and your nukes are as strong and accurate as a level 15 character I doubt you'll be impressed with them. Just leaving Carby out is probably much more mp-efficient damage.

Offensive magic granted by subjob is generally useless unless your main job naturally has skill in it. Same goes for most enhancing magic. That's why /whm is considered the only viable subjob for smn for most of the game. Curative magic doesn't drop significantly in effectiveness when used from a subjob.

This has nothing to do with smn/whm in general. It is the fact that i had abuse thrown at me for playing the job the way i want to. If i sub whm and get to summon aswell then yea thats ok, but most smn/whm i have seen are told not to summon with fear of being kicked from the party. I would not mind having to secondry/main heal, aslong as i can do what a summoner is ment to do.

To be fair, half healing skill isnt all that usefull to.

Significantly more useful then 0 damage stone. A SMN can keep a party alive with cures, they can't kill a mob with nukes.

But do whatever you want, just don't whine about it when others don't like it.

At level 12 I'd believe that might be viable, but when you're level 30 and your nukes are as strong and accurate as a level 15 character I doubt you'll be impressed with them. Just leaving Carby out is probably much more mp-efficient damage.


But then isnt that the same as a whm/blk throwing some nukes from time to time.?

Basically, i see it that at the dunes level ye are you won't be able to use Cure 2 whilst subbing, so ye useless as a main healer. I've been in a crappy party once where they wanted me as main healer...we died very fast...

Subbing blm has up's and down's too, advantages like higher mp pool are nice. But the lower dmg from magic spells sucks.

In the end it's your choice, just don't expect a party invite from those who can't find a competant whm to heal them...

To be fair, half healing skill isnt all that usefull to.No, actually it is. That's what I'm saying. The soft caps for healing magic aren't that hard to reach with a decent amount of mnd, even with halved healing magic skill. You might notice the difference on your Divine Seal + Curaga, but that's about it. And -na spells, the other important thing, can't fail except in extremely rare instances like Serket poison or Mortal Ray from taurs, so half skill doesn't affect it at all.

Sorry people were rude to you, but you're going to get that kind of crap if you insist on playing your job outside its accepted bounds. Not condoning it or anything, but if you insist on that playstyle you just need to develop a thicker skin about it.

And on a tangent, rdm/war really isn't that bad of a combination at that level. I wouldn't trade Red Lotus Blade access and the ability to tank for the extra mp from a mage sub at that point myself, but melee as a rdm is actually pretty viable up through at least level 30.But then isnt that the same as a whm/blk throwing some nukes from time to time.?whm/blm is the canon abbreviation. I've never seen a good white mage throwing nukes other than in a particular 2x nin party where practically no healing was required, and even then she only nuked as a magic burst. There's no way the spell would've landed for full damage without the magic accuracy bonus from an MB. A whm free-nuking in a non-PLed party is unacceptable and frankly stupid. The contribution you're making (generic you) to the party's kill speed is nothing compared to the downtime you're adding by frittering away that valuable mp. Conserve mp as much as possible to reduce the time the party waits for you to regain mp between chains as a whm.

As a RDM when i was starting the game i meleed all the way to 40 when i had the time ie. WHM insists he wants to enfeeble but i didn't melee things that had AoE WS so i didn't fight the flys my PTs normally said why are you just standing there start meleeing becouse of that i decided to keep my sword semi lvled and 'm glad i did as noy i'm only 3 skill lvls away from capped sword 19 from my dagger, when i first started the game they gave me a dagger as a starting weapon got to lvl 7 skill and then my friend upgraded and gave my his old sword and i used swords from then on till i got to 75 and lvled dagger

I think any smn who wants to play just for the purpose of getting avatars to use can agree that the "accepted" playing style is as far fetch'd as thf/pup tanking kirin in terms of being fun >_>; Anything really its that cure should be like the nukes and enfeebles for subbed skills. Though, then there is the issue of prep/bp cost and bp timers >_>;

All i was trying to say was that people should not be compleate jerks when something is not right in their party. Instead of showting abuse at me, he could have said "You know whm subed would be a little more usefull"

I think it's the other way around. Subbed magic other than healing magic should be good enough to at least be usable, or avatar melee should be worthwhile enough to leave the avatars out and forego /healing during combat to give summoners something to do between blood pacts. But the fact is it isn't that way, and until SE decides to change that I think it's pointless to argue the issue.All i was trying to say was that people should not be compleate jerks when something is not right in their party. Instead of showting abuse at me, he could have said "You know whm subed would be a little more usefull"That I'll agree with wholeheartedly, but like the other side of the conversation, unfortunately that's not the way it is. All we can really do about it is try to be less of a jerk to other people.

I feel as if subbing a certain job just cause "it works the best" is crap. If ye want to go and learn new styles of play in this game, and use the freedom it should give, you should experiment in parties with this kind of sub, hell ye could even try SMN/DRK for atk boost :P

The thing is, after 5 years of FFXI, all sub combos have been tried and tested to death. The ones that work are the accepted ones. It may seem harsh, but you have to ask yourself what is your sub bringing to the table.

And before you bring out the "It's my money per month" it is also the money of those 5 other party members...

While i have been leveling summoner, all i have recived is abuse. While soloing in the mines in the zone of N Gustburg (Cant remember the name) some random human warrior came and slaughterd all the enimies and shouted at me "lol level summoner now galka noob!"

Yes i know a galka is not built for a mage, but there is no need to fire abuse at me because of it. I have nothing against Taru melee's, i only said what i did as self defence.

Well if they didn't want a blm sub, then they shouldn't have added the guy! They had no right to complain after adding him.

Really, there's not a darn thing wrong with galka mages.

Again, sorry you keep running into jerks.

And I have no problem with trying unorthodox subs, but you need to be aware of exactly what your subjob is doing for you and why you're using the sub you're using.

The main reason i am using black mage as a sub, is the more mp. If my party gets agroed by something while we are not ready, the more mp lets me quickly summon a spirit to hold the beast, while we zone it. Also i know that my skills are half capped, but to me im doing that little extra damage to help kill it, Plus as Chro says, if they didint want me, why invite me.

To be honest, mp isn't the most important thing, it is how fast you get it back. I'd recommend you camp a Pilgrim's Wand (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Pilgrim%27s_Wand), and get some Baron's Slops (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Baron%27s_Slops) when you are 20 to help you regain mp faster. If you use a Rolanberry Pie, for mp +50 (they are nice and cheap) and maybe level cooking to 30 to be able to make pineapple juices on the hoof, all helps with mp regen.

Most people will invite smn/blm expected them to change to /whm.

If it helps, I know several Galka mages who do make it work for them. But it does take care.

There could be some benefits to using /BLM if you ignore the gimped nuking and the lack of /WHM.

Conserve MP: Occasionally reduces MP costs for spells.

Magic Attack Bonus: Improves power of Magic spells.

Elemental Seal: Enhances accuracy of next spell.

Blaze, Frost, and Shock Spikes: Could be used for those " :wtf: " moments.

Utility Spells: Mainly Warp or Escape.

And, last and least, those offensive spells: Optional Magic Bursts when you don't have the matching Avatar for the Skillchain. Pair these with Elemental Seal for maximum effect.

If I got something wrong, please inform me, but since everybody was shouting why SMN/BLM shouldn't be used, I figured "might as well look up any advantages there could be." The above list is what I got from it.

In a game where you solo, no one would care what you do. However, in FFXI, you don't solo, you party up... this means what you are and what you can do is very important to them. They want the party slot you take up to matter. This is why SMN/BLM fails. It fails at the very core of it's mechanics. You are failing your teammates as a SMN/BLM, this is why they are being rude to you.

The main reason i am using black mage as a sub, is the more mp. If my party gets agroed by something while we are not ready, the more mp lets me quickly summon a spirit to hold the beast, while we zone it. Also i know that my skills are half capped, but to me im doing that little extra damage to help kill it, Plus as Chro says, if they didint want me, why invite me.

As Kirsteena said, MP isn't going to be a big issue with SMN as much as getting it back.

Also, if you want to Summon something faster, /RDM has Fast Cast, as well as a few Healing spells to keep everybody alive.

Downsides? RDM doesn't have the best healing to begin with, as a matter of fact, thier Healing Skill is the worst in the game; subbing it could make it worse, but, as said earlier, Healing Skill is mostly just for show as far as actual potency of Curing goes.

Also, thier MP is the least out of the BLM, WHM, RDM trio. And while they have nukes, you'd be doing even worse than if you subbed /BLM for nukes, if it's even possible.

If I invite a SMN/BLM seeking party, I expect him to change to /WHM before joining. If he arrives as SMN/BLM intentionally, I'd kick him out of the party. Any SMN without that much understanding of party dynamics shouldn't even put up the seek flag.

Not that I would be abusive personally, but if you show up to party as SMN/BLM, you're asking for harsh language or /blist add.

To be honest, mp isn't the most important thing, it is how fast you get it back. I'd recommend you camp a Pilgrim's Wand (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Pilgrim%27s_Wand), and get some Baron's Slops (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Baron%27s_Slops) when you are 20 to help you regain mp faster. If you use a Rolanberry Pie, for mp +50 (they are nice and cheap) and maybe level cooking to 30 to be able to make pineapple juices on the hoof, all helps with mp regen.

Thanks for this advice. If i can get the cash i would get the slops. But i am quite straped for cash at the moment. :P


Blaze, Frost, and Shock Spikes: Could be used for those " " moments.

Utility Spells: Mainly Warp or Escape.


This is another reason i mainly want to sub black mage. As summoner is my main mage job, i belive that subbing black with it will make it a little more usefull.

In a game where you solo, no one would care what you do. However, in FFXI, you don't solo, you party up... this means what you are and what you can do is very important to them. They want the party slot you take up to matter. This is why SMN/BLM fails. It fails at the very core of it's mechanics. You are failing your teammates as a SMN/BLM, this is why they are being rude to you.


If they didint want a blm sub, why invite me THEN fire abuse at me. They saw my sub job when searching for me.


Also, if you want to Summon something faster, /RDM has Fast Cast, as well as a few Healing spells to keep everybody alive. Downside? RDM doesn't have the best healing to begin with, as a matter of fact, thier Healing Skill is the worst in the game; subbing it could make it worse, but, as said earlier, Healing Skill is mostly just for show as far as actual potency of Curing goes.

That could be an idea, i may try that sometime but seen as my RDM is level 1 i might not try it any time soon :P

I got a solution that would prevent further "fire abuse":

Level WHM and sub it.

Conserve MP: If I'm not mistaken, this would only apply to the initial cost of summoning an avatar, which is pretty small. It wouldn't do anything to mitigate the perpetuation cost and BP costs that chew up most of a smn's mp.

Magic Attack Bonus: Increases the damage of spells you do by 20% with the first trait, obtained at level 20/blm10. Again, about this time your elemental magic skill will be woefully behind due to its half level cap. While mainjob blms will be starting to notice their magic getting resisted a little more, you might not even know what full damage looks like. MAB has no effect on the potency of your avatar's attacks.

Elemental Seal: I suppose this could be used to push through a debuff or a full damage nuke, but it only works every 10 minutes. Something, but really not much to speak of.

Blaze, Frost, and Shock Spikes: At times where you take hate, a small amount of counter damage probably isn't going to save you. Paralyze from Ice Spikes may kick in and buy you an extra round of life, same with stun from Shock Spikes, but you don't get them until level 40 and 60 respectively.

Warp and Escape: There is that ...

If you don't have the right avatar for the skillchain ... go get it before you continue playing smn. You can be excused from having Fenrir and Diabolos until much higher levels, but if you're able to get one of the elemental avatars, getting any of the others isn't significantly different in difficulty.

I hope I'm not coming off overly negatively, but there's a reason why the standard subs are standard and the fringe subs are fringe.

Hey. I have only been playing summoner for about a few days now, and i have been subbing black mage. My summoner level is now 15, but at level 12, i got invited into a party in the dunes. Being a galka i got some bursts of abuse thrown at mefor being a mage. That is not what botherd me. As soon as i got to the camp, one member of the party tells me to go back and sub white mage. Of course i say no but he then has a massive rant at me saying "Your not playing your job properly, Summoners are ment to sub white mage noob!"

This then led back to the point of me being a galka.
After this i lashed out in self defence saying "Well, Taru's arnt built to play a melee job!" This taru was a warior red mage.

My main rant realy is that many parties did not invite me in as i "not playing my job properly" Summoners in my opinion are not ment ot be white mages, were are ment to SUMMON avatars and spirits!

Yes i understand that most summoners do this to get party invites, but me personaly i hate the idea. And to get abuse thrown at me for not subbing white mage, i think is just plain wrong. This game can be played by anyone however they like, and i choose to sub black mage.

Ok, my rant is over thanks. :)

You're both wrong, and for the same two reasons.

1. You're both judgemental idiots. Self-defense (which no, it wasn't) or not, "Taru aren't meant to play a melee job!" is the same god damned thing as "Galka aren't meant to play a mage job!". And you wouldn't say it if you didn't believe it.

2. You're both forgetting the primary purpose of a subjob: To bring additional USEFUL abilities to your main job. Personally, I wish SMN/BLM was more of an option. I understand why it's done, but I HATE SMN main healers. It's a waste of a great DD/support job. But...it's not. /BLM brings jack shit to the table, vs. the utility (main healer or not) of /WHM. Even if you're not main heal, you can still toss -nas, backup cures, etc., versus the 1hp nukes that everybody else has referenced. And a Taru WAR/RDM (If I'm understanding you correctly on that)...well, that's a double dose of lulz.

Life sucks. Shit happens. SMN/WHM is the standard, and until something in the game mechanics changes, the fact that it's the only subjob that's really useful isn't going to change. Learn to deal with it, or figure out what other job you want to level.

That is not what i am getting at. It is the fact of instead of providing advice of WHY summoner subbed with whm would be better, he invited me to the party, THEN had a go at me for not subbing whm when he saw i was subbed black. If he had given advice other than "SMN are ment to sub whm noob!" then maybie i would have changed.

It's a double sided blade really, ye got Vildar wanting to sub blm for his reasons which is fair enough. But ye got the "standard" crap you guys are talking about as well. I understand that whm sub is useful, but if he really wants to sub blm then that's his choice really, standard or not he'll help in a party. Summoner healing is stupid in my eyes, it takes valuable time away from levelling summoning skill so ye have to sit there for hours on end doing it on ye own. You can only use cure 1, which is good for 30 hp but when you have a party of melee they tend to get a bit arsey if you can't heal them enough, and using cure 1 to heal a party of people ain't easy at all, i tried and failed.

Conserve MP: If I'm not mistaken, this would only apply to the initial cost of summoning an avatar, which is pretty small. It wouldn't do anything to mitigate the perpetuation cost and BP costs that chew up most of a smn's mp.

Magic Attack Bonus: Increases the damage of spells you do by 20% with the first trait, obtained at level 20/blm10. Again, about this time your elemental magic skill will be woefully behind due to its half level cap. While mainjob blms will be starting to notice their magic getting resisted a little more, you might not even know what full damage looks like. MAB has no effect on the potency of your avatar's attacks.

Elemental Seal: I suppose this could be used to push through a debuff or a full damage nuke, but it only works every 10 minutes. Something, but really not much to speak of.

Blaze, Frost, and Shock Spikes: At times where you take hate, a small amount of counter damage probably isn't going to save you. Paralyze from Ice Spikes may kick in and buy you an extra round of life, same with stun from Shock Spikes, but you don't get them until level 40 and 60 respectively.

Warp and Escape: There is that ...

If you don't have the right avatar for the skillchain ... go get it before you continue playing smn. You can be excused from having Fenrir and Diabolos until much higher levels, but if you're able to get one of the elemental avatars, getting any of the others isn't significantly different in difficulty.

I hope I'm not coming off overly negatively, but there's a reason why the standard subs are standard and the fringe subs are fringe.

Okay, I figured most of these weren't BP compatable. Thanks for correcting me Taskmage :) .

Though, there is one thing I would like to correct here: when I said "don't have the correct Avatar," I meant, "don't have the correct Avatar on the battlefield at the moment of the Skillchain." I know it was worded weirdly, so I'll just save us from further confusion by saying "you can nuke for a MB if you don't have a (proper) Rage BP ready at the Skillchain."

i dont know about other people but when i am searching for a job, for example a tank, and i see a pld/blm i assume they are going to change they're sub to /war for the pt. I dont always specify to the player what i need them to come with, because i assume its understood. Some people like to try different things than the norm and that is ok when you solo, but when it comes to xp most of the time the tried and true method works best.

i dont know about other people but when i am searching for a job, for example a tank, and i see a pld/blm i assume they are going to change they're sub to /war for the pt. I dont always specify to the player what i need them to come with, because i assume its understood. Some people like to try different things than the norm and that is ok when you solo, but when it comes to xp most of the time the tried and true method works best.
Reminds me when i went to a jungles party pld/mnk and i forgot i was subbing monk cause of soloing the day before @_@; Barely manage to get hate, then run through the jungles I did to change sub >_>; yay for invis powders /wins

A PLD/BLM could work, but probably only on paper. In theory, what better way to take back hate from nuke-spammers than to nuke-spam yourself? And there's also the Elemental Spikes spells. And, really, you just apply all the benefits to /BLM I mentioned earlier to this one (Conserve MP, MAB, Ele-Seal, Warp/Escape, MB a Skillchain you helped to create).

Obviously, though, you lose any Spike enmity from a sub-job, not to mention your stats would be completely out-of-whack: a BLM is basically the opposite of a PLD statistically; probably even more so than a DRK.

/derail

It's hard to maintain mp for nuking, but Armando did an experiment with pld/rdm awhile back that held hate through flash, bind and blind spam - all have high enmity ratings and low enough cost that auto-refresh restores the mp used by the time the spell is ready to cast again. Also the combination of Flash and Blink mitigated a lot of damage, essentially negating 8 of the mob's attacks every fight. /rdm performed the necessary functions of holding hate and mitigating damage very well without adding unnecessarily to the party's downtime.

It just goes to show that unconventional subs CAN work, but you need to have an understanding of your job's role, its capabilities and what exactly your potential subjob can do to supplement that. It's not as simple as 1) Sub drk, 2) Get Attack Bonus, 3) ..., 4) Uber damage!

Here's the pld/rdm thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/58323-tanking-pld-rdm-works.html

Interesting stuff there :) .

I guess in this situation, it's not about the nuke-spamming as much as -which- nukes to spam. Though your advice on subjobs is pretty universal.

yep ive read those threads and while pld/blm or pld/rm is maybe viable for some situations and and level ranges its not the standard and as such not expected, being that way have my new tank show up as /mage would be a little suprissing and prob evoke some comment, personally i have no problems with allowing people to try different things and i've used the hate spike from a spell like bind to save a few mages before. The point is that when your using an unconvevtional sub some pt or players may like to be warned.

The point is you have to know what you're doing. Look before you leap!

Look. Everyone is telling you to sub whm. You don't like it. Too friggin bad. That's just the truth of things and how things work. The only reason someone would invite you in higher levels is for curing. Not for damage dealing. GET USE TO IT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T PLAY SUMMONER!

Oh yes I did try blm sub for smn at level 60. I subbed blm because I was warping to my home point and I forgot to change subs. You know how useful that sub was? Well let's just say it was damn lucky that there was a whm and a rdm in the party with me. Blm sub did maybe 30 damage on a magic burst. that's pathetic. I could melee harder with the staff.

You will be curing from level 1-69. If your lucky at level 70 your Avatars will start dishing out more damage, but still paultry compared to regular damage dealers. 600-800 on a IT isn't much. You can do 1k+ on easy prey or decent challenges, but that's pretty much it. That's with full physical accuracy and smn af2 gloves.

You came here to ask for advice, so here's our advice. go level whm. Get your avatars (because it doesn't seem like you have any besides Carbuncle and some spirits). Then go level smn. Don't bother leveling without Fenrir either. Because that's just sad. Your reputation will go through the mud, and no one would bother to invite you.

Well, if you don't want to put up with other peoples opinions you could solo. Then you won't have to care what other people think when they /check you :thumbsup:

I've been soloing as a SMN since I got the job. I started as a SMN/THF, then at level 20 I switch to /NIN for dual-wielding daggers. At level 20 you can solo worms in Korro(tab) tunnels till you are level 24-25, then head to the Ice Pond in Qufim. Good thing about SMN is that you get access to a lot of very nice +evasion gear which will help you dodge those hits and make every shadow last that much longer. If you can afford it, at level 25, try to get a pair of Bastokian/Republic daggers since they add +2/+3 evasions respectively.

Garuda will be your Avatar of choice for dealing against Worm mobs. If you haven't aquired Garuda, do the mini battle. Garuda was a push over when I did it :thumbsup:

Soloing with my Avatars actually gave me a sense of how a SMN was ment to be played, fighting along side one's Avatar and not just another /whm healer :vent:

Smn has an E class in dagger. The mobs you are fighting now may be ok, but as you get higher, your accuracy will plummet. They also have an E class in evasion. Meaning you have the evasion of a brick.

It may not be ideal, but it is how SE has made smn. Not us, SE. Avatar perp costs, plus limited mp pool, with BP timers means you can't do much. Like I say, it is a long way to 75 solo.

Oh, a little about SMN solo'ing. From what I can tell, it's mostly about killing bombs (and maybe worms).

What would be nice to have from your {Support Job} when solo'ing?
Reraise: No one else there to raise you when you die--solo'ing means by yourself.
MP: For keeping avatars out longer. That means /mage.
Damage Mitigation: Need this between Carbies. e.g. Blink and Stoneskin, basically.
Cure/Regen: Because not dying is good.
What can do all that? /WHM. Yep, solo'ing SMN's most often exp as SMN/WHM.

* * *

So, for party: they want /WHM. For solo'ing, you'd want /WHM. What does that mean? SMN's who want experience points, want /WHM.

It's just that useful. :P

SMN has a B+ in Staff and Dagger at E. At level 37, the difference is only 15 skill. At 75 it'll be 50 skill.

Evasion can be compensated with +evasion gear. Remember you aren't trying to tank these mobs, the Avatar are the ones that are taking most of the hits, evasion + shadows are just for those stray hits.

It may not be ideal, but it is how SE has made smn. Not us, SE. Avatar perp costs, plus limited mp pool, with BP timers means you can't do much. Like I say, it is a long way to 75 solo.

Yes, soloing to 75 is a long journey. But I rather enjoy the trip then to get to 75 on a job combination I detest. There is more to Vana'Diel then just the exp grind.

But there isn't more to leveling than the exp grind. Which is when you want /WHM, as Itazura pointed out above. It's the only sub that is going to do everything you need in both a party and solo situation.

Oh, a little about SMN solo'ing. From what I can tell, it's mostly about killing bombs (and maybe worms).

What would be nice to have from your {Support Job} when solo'ing?

Reraise: No one else there to raise you when you die--solo'ing means by yourself.
MP: For keeping avatars out longer. That means /mage.
Damage Mitigation: Need this between Carbies. e.g. Blink and Stoneskin, basically.
Cure/Regen: Because not dying is good.What can do all that? /WHM. Yep, solo'ing SMN's most often exp as SMN/WHM.

* * *

So, for party: they want /WHM. For solo'ing, you'd want /WHM. What does that mean? SMN's who want experience points, want /WHM.

It's just that useful. :P

Reraise: Reraise Hairpins/scrolls/go to besige /blm use reraise scroll then warp
MP: Yag drinks/Pies
Damage Mitigation: Shadows/Aerial Armor
Cure/Regen: Healing Ruby/Pamama Au Laits

Don't need /whm for any of that :biggrin:
Where there is a will, there is a way.:thumbsup:

Well, if you want to pay for all those items to do things that your subjob could do for free, have at it. But /THF certainly isn't adding anything to your performance.

Every Job is expensive, some more than others. Playing the job you want should be no different.

But since you are mainly soloing, every seal/item that drops goes straight to you.

I solo for seals when I want them. I get more than enough. If you can carry everything, and fork out for the reraise items, and the au laits, good for you. But believe me, you will burn out, especially when you watch linkshell mates go racing past you in levels. I soloed blm from 51 onwards, and that is hard to watch. And I was fighting VT mobs, which I doubt you will be able to do with /thf.

Also, are you going to carry remedies? A stoneskin gorget? Those things that can help keep you alive?

Reraise: Reraise Hairpins/scrolls/go to besige /blm use reraise scroll then warp
MP: Yag drinks/Pies
Damage Mitigation: Shadows/Aerial Armor
Cure/Regen: Healing Ruby/Pamama Au Laits

Don't need /whm for any of that :biggrin:
Where there is a will, there is a way.:thumbsup:

Er...
What would be nice to have from your {Support Job} when solo'ing?
I'm just telling you what is efficient.. Sure, you can solo on /BLM if you want, and pack all that junk and waste all that MP on Aerial Armor or Healing Ruby. Of course, it does seem more logical to leave most of that stuff behind, go /WHM, and carry an Instant Warp scroll instead.

You'd still want Stoneskin, BTW. Bomb explosions, you know. I supposed your plan would be to use Earthen Ward, wait a whole minute, then use Aerial Armor. If either wears while Carby is engaged, I guess you'd have a Blink Band, and RR if you eat a bad explosion.

Nothing you can do about bar- spells without /WHM or /RDM, but that's too bad, I guess. You also can't cure yourself much when Carby is busy fighting--unless you're willing to risk additional enmity by using BP next to monster. Just hope the bomb won't explode while you're low on HP and running toward it and Carby to get a Healing Ruby.

Despite all that, yes, you are right--iff you are willing, you can definitely exp without /WHM.

However, I recommend you stay away from exp parties; they'd hate your support job, and you'd hate being "hated on" or something.

* * *

Was playing with my sister's SMN75 (she solo'ed most of the levels after 60) a few minutes ago. Very nicely geared; she gains MP with Carbuncle out; she sure spent a lot of effort to set up her SMN. Of course, her solo work is always on /WHM, and the same for group events. (Oh, she has 10+ jobs which she can sub if she wants--/WHM is what works for her.)

She did this yesterday IRL when I mentioned "some dude insists upon using SMN/BLM on FFXIonline": :rolleyes:

I'd imagine that's what most other SMN75's would think of your plan, if they aren't busy blasting you for eschewing /WHM's obvious utility.

I solo for seals when I want them. I get more than enough. If you can carry everything, and fork out for the reraise items, and the au laits, good for you. But believe me, you will burn out, especially when you watch linkshell mates go racing past you in levels. I soloed blm from 51 onwards, and that is hard to watch. And I was fighting VT mobs, which I doubt you will be able to do with /thf.

Also, are you going to carry remedies? A stoneskin gorget? Those things that can help keep you alive?

I am the slowest leveler in my LS and I'm fine with that. Getting to level 75 isn't on my priority list, never was, never will.

What keeps me alive while soloing is Experience. Not the numbers you get when you kill a mob, but actual Experience. You can learn from dying, figure out what you did wrong and try not to repeat the same mistake. But most importanly, don't bite off more than you can chew :thumbsup:

Since you have been playing for a while, you should know that exp doesn't have to come in big chunks. I rather kill 2 EMs than take on a VT. Safer and offers the same Exp as the VT.

I'm just telling you what is efficient...

Hmmm. . . . .

Well if everyone want to do things the efficient way, why are people making babies the old fashion way when you can go to the doctor and have a test tube baby!? :eek:

Just because something is efficient doesn't nessicerily mean that it is enjoyable. :thumbsup:




**hope I didn't offend anyone with the baby analogy, was the first thing that pop to my mind :wtf:

That's a really bad analogy, considering not only the subject matter but the fact that the "old fashioned way" is the cheaper, easier solution.

**hope I didn't offend anyone with the baby analogy, was the first thing that pop to my mind :wtf:
I'm deeply offended.

As a counter analogy, why would you drive down the highway in first gear rather than fourth gear? Sure, you'll get to the same destination and maybe speed doesn't matter to you, but why would you spend more money (more gas vs more items) and put more wear on your resources (more engine wear vs more deaths from not being able to cure or buff at will) to accomplish the exact same goal? Nobody is going to respect you for making either decision, and I don't see why any right-minded person would make it. Just put the smn in gear and get the job done.

Just put the smn in gear and get the job done.Excellent analogy. The same could be said of any job, really.

I can guarantee that every single smn has asked the question "why can't I sub /blm for more mp?" Sure, you say that you would rather fight two EM instead of one VT, and that it is the experience of the situation that matters. But you can get that experience regardless. And two EM when your tnl is in excess of 35k seems a tiny tiny drop in a very large pool.

There is a reason that most bst when soloing will sub whm - for the survivability factor. Being able to run out of range, cast Stoneskin to give you that extra piece of protection... certainly it is the general sub when xping. There is a case for /nin yes, but whm is more often used for soloing.

Not sure if I it was already been stated but, why should jobs be broken in players eyes just from subs? Isn't the point mains should be good enough to last without one or that the sub in case of smn makes or breaks it on how its played?

The job/subjob system is what FFXI is based upon, so no.

Not sure if I it was already been stated but, why should jobs be broken in players eyes just from subs? Isn't the point mains should be good enough to last without one or that the sub in case of smn makes or breaks it on how its played?I would agree with you, but that's a philosophical issue between us and SE. They don't seem to agree and the game isn't designed that way, so unless they do an about-face and overhauls every job to be self-sufficient in their role, only changed in style or enhanced by their support job, it's rather pointless to argue the idea.

I would agree with you, but that's a philosophical issue between us and SE. They don't seem to agree and the game isn't designed that way, so unless they do an about-face and overhauls every job to be self-sufficient in their role, only changed in style or enhanced by their support job, it's rather pointless to argue the idea.

Quoted for SO much truth.

That's the main problem with Summoner, really, in that it isn't self-sufficient.

As a counter analogy, why would you drive down the highway in first gear rather than fourth gear? Sure, you'll get to the same destination and maybe speed doesn't matter to you, but why would you spend more money (more gas vs more items) and put more wear on your resources (more engine wear vs more deaths from not being able to cure or buff at will) to accomplish the exact same goal? Nobody is going to respect you for making either decision, and I don't see why any right-minded person would make it. Just put the smn in gear and get the job done.

Well guess I'll take the car analogy and run with it.

Lets compare SMN/WHM to a Hybrid that gets 60+ MPG and SMN/x as the big SUV that gets 2 MPG.

Why doesn't everyone drive a Hybrid? It could be that Hybrids are the leading cause of smug. :biggrin:

Freedom of Choice = Diversity

If /whm was the only way to go for SMN, why didn't SE just made a single class system?

. . . And therein lies another problem.

Well, if it was as simple as walking into their house and talking to a floating moogle, I suspect more people would be driving Hybrids. Or at least trying to figure out why they have a floating moogle in their house.

And therein lies a solution. I think.

Not that I like subbing /whm...I fact I hate it! I mean people say "oh a Summoner...he/she can main heal" when the truth is that a real WHM is much better.(I hate playing gimp WHM thank you very much...I'm a summoner and wierd buffs and semi-ok DD stuff is my game. I did not play this job to heal your stupid....well you know!)

The MP difference is minimal between the Blm and WHM subs...but also on low levels like you're on now...well you don't have very many fun bloodpacts. The teir 2 spells are the best DD(lvl 25+) followed closely by Levithain's tail whip(just abit higher). Most of the good buffs you get between lvl 30-50...like Ariel Armor and Earthen Ward.

Untill you get stuff that really cooks you'll be stuck playing gimp WHM...or even beyond that...I just hate the whole attidue that Blood pacts and summons are a waste of MP. I love Avatars...and anything they can do is very cool...I hate getting stuck as healer...it just makes me feel like a second rate WHM and not a Summoner....

Well guess I'll take the car analogy and run with it.
Lets compare SMN/WHM to a Hybrid that gets 60+ MPG and SMN/x as the big SUV that gets 2 MPG.
Why doesn't everyone drive a Hybrid? It could be that Hybrids are the leading cause of smug. :biggrin:
Freedom of Choice = Diversity
If /whm was the only way to go for SMN, why didn't SE just made a single class system?So you wouldn't drive a hybrid solely for the reason that you don't like the attitudes of other people who drive hybrids, even though you acknowledge they're the more responsible, ostensibly "better" choice? That seems like a really poor reason to make any kind of decision that you care significantly about.

As to your last comment, probably because they envisioned smn working in a way that didn't pan out in practice.

Like warriors for instance. Lots of their artifact and even relic equipment has +enmity on it on the theory that the mod would be useful to warriors acting as a tank. But the players determined that warrior is a decidedly sub-par tank compared to paladins and ninjas starting in the early midgame, and warriors stopped being invited for that purpose. Instead they found that a properly equipped warrior was one of the best damage dealers in the game, so they took the job in that direction instead. +enmity is bad news for a heavy damage dealer that isn't geared to take hits, so those warrior-only items go to waste.

Summoner, I imagine, SE envisioned as being a flexible support/DD character (which they may have only recently "gotten right" with blu and cor), able to shift between contributing to damage and supporting with song/spell-like effects depending on the party's needs. But whenever you make a job good at multiple things, to keep the jobs balanced you have to make sure that specialists in each of those things can ourperform the versatile character. So smn's DD ability was set at a level lower than dedicated DD classes, same as rdm's elemental magic is significantly weaker than a blm's. Because they're weaker than other options, parties stop inviting smns to fill DD slots, relegating them to a support-only role. But if you're not dealing damage, there's no reason to keep your avatar out between BPs, so what do you do with 50 seconds out of a minute when you don't need to rest? Well, the only thing you can do is heal, since the mainjob doesn't have any spells or abilities you can use during that interim time, and all offensive options are gimped by subjob restrictions. As I see it that's how the job has fallen from the expectations of its designers and the player base.

Another note, while mobs do resist your spells when you cast upon them, your allies and other players don't resist spells when you cast oh say cure on them. Wouldn't life be a bitch if your cures got resisted? Another reason to sub whm! wow the hits just keep on commin'.

Oh about the analogy to driving in 1st gear vs. 4th gear. You actually get more bang for the buck driving 35~ mph. It has been tested that driving slower = more milage. oddly enough. I don't think this has anything to do about it, but I just thought I'd put in some nonsense here.

Oh and Freedan, your an "person lacking in subnormal intelligence, borderlined between a half-wit & imbecile". That's just my diversified opinion.

Well this certanly has got popular. I just want to say that i have tried whm subbed, and the party died very fast. Not sure if this was due to me being inexperienced or the party as a whole. We did have an actual whm there but they wernt very good. Again i had abuse for not keeping them alive :P. They said nothing to the actual main healer.

Between all the flames back and forth I'll try to write my (hopefully) objective opinion about the smn job and subjobs.
I haven't read all replies so I might be repeating what other people may have said.

In exp summoner is mostly a healer or support class depending on partysetup and willingness of the other support job capable of healing to do so.
The reason we're alos more a support class is our limit of Blood pact timers and the inconsistancy of our Blood pact damage.

/BLM:
Although it gives you a bigger MP pool and at a certain level conserve MP, this subjob is not really worth it.
The spells are at the strength of the support job so on mobs with a higher level then you have they will get resisted a lot and mostly be a waste of MP even if you MB.
Ultimately this will be a waste of MP better used for other purposes.
Also the Conserve MP will only kick in on actual spells you cast, as our summoning spells vary between 5 and 18 MP this will not be very helpful on this specific class as that is only a very small portion of our MP pool at later levels.
Conserve MP does not affect Blood pacts or perpetuation cost at all.
More MP from the BLM subjob is about the only benefit you will have.

/RDM
As summoner is mainly a healer or support class in exp setups this could be a viable sub.
You get the cures until cure III and the fast cast trait which helps casting the cures a little faster.
The downside of this subjob however is that you will miss out on several spells which could immensely help out your party like the -na spells, Erase, Curagas, the Partybuffs like Protectra and shellra, and for when things go majorly wrong: Raise!

/WHM
The most common and widely accepted subjob for summoner, for a reason.
Both in solo and party situation the summoner can utilize their subjob like no other job can.
Next to our Blood pacts we have enough power and MP to keep the party up and going.
We can cast minor buffs like Protectra and Shellra upon our party, elemental buffs, we have -na spells in our repetoire for when someone gets inflicted by a poison or other ailment, we have cures and curagas we can buff ourselves, raise the downed, and at a certain level reraise ourselves without the usage of expensive items.
It also has the huge benefit of being able to teleport to the 3 main crags once you reach endgame levels.

/Melee
Situational, I will explain later on in the post.

In partysituation,
as I stated earlier summoner is mainly a support class here depending on the willingness of the other healer/support class to back you up on healing.
Summoner is blessed with loads of Blood pacts to make the job a lot easier as long as the assistant backs you up enough.
9 out of the 10 parties you join will be asked to heal, whm is ultimately the best subjob for this because of the spells and ablities it brings.

Solo situation,
As far as soloing goes it really depends on the stuff you solo, in most situations /whm stays the best subjob for this due to fighting mobs which can give status ailments through an unlucky AoE move or let it be hitting a few times when your avatar went down and you resummoned a new one which has to rebuild enough hate to get it off you.
On lower level mobs (Too weak up to Decent challenge) it could be viable to have a melee sub because in most cases the mob will die before your avatar does however your avatar has to be hitting hard enough so that you won't pull hate off it while you melee along with it.
(I use /thf myself when farming)

Of course I've seen come by that our Blood pacts can do a large amount of healing, whoever said that is right however we are still limited by our blood pact timers.
In partysituations you can toss out a quick healing ruby/whispering wind when the party is struck by an AoE however you'll have to wait one full minute (Depending on gear that reduces Blood pact timers) to repeat that action, within that time the party could wipe because you couldn't cure them in the mean time.

In solo situations you wouldn't want to use Blood pacts close to the mob when you already have a little hate built up as your avatar will have trouble getting the mob off you the next time you have to resummon if the mob won't be facing you already after giving the command.

Most of this comes from my own experience, I've soloed 90% of my levels from 51 to 75 and 75% of all my merits.
I only party with a select type of people.
(People that don't care about fast exp.)

Well this certanly has got popular. I just want to say that i have tried whm subbed, and the party died very fast. Not sure if this was due to me being inexperienced or the party as a whole. We did have an actual whm there but they wernt very good. Again i had abuse for not keeping them alive :P. They said nothing to the actual main healer.Unless you're leaving out major details, it sounds like you got partied up with a bunch of douchebags again. There's no reason a whm can't carry a party on its own. If you were a backup healer, there's no way they should have laid the blame on you exclusively. If they got into a situation where they were relying on you only to heal, that's a failure not only of your ability but of the communication and judgement of the puller and the white mage for not coordinating better with you and rationing mp.

That said, it's not that easy to main heal well, especially when you're casting purely from half level spells. If it was all your fault somehow, don't be too hard on yourself about it and just try to figure out what you can do to avoid it in the future. I've killed my share of parties with unfortunate "learning experiences" myself. >.>

And again, sorry you keep running into jerks. At another time I'd say that isn't representative of most of the playerbase and to just forget it, but really I'm not that confident in that statement anymore. I barely venture out of my linkshells anymore. If you find some good players, try to stick with them, get a pearl or /befriend them. Social ties are the bread and butter of this game. And the farther you get from Valkurm, the lower the general level of retardedness gets, so just bear it a little longer if you can.

I only party with a select type of people.
(People that don't care about fast exp.)

You never ask me ._.;

I've had a great time trying out COR in varying setups. I give all my SMNs BST roll (+attack for pet), but I would like to try others out. I want to to a pet PT sometime, actually (BST, PUP, SMN, DRG).

This has nothing to do with smn/whm in general. It is the fact that i had abuse thrown at me for playing the job the way i want to.
You can play the job any way that you like... if you play solo.

If you want to play in a group with other people, you have to be ready to compromise on personal preferences.

You never ask me ._.;

I've had a great time trying out COR in varying setups. I give all my SMNs BST roll (+attack for pet), but I would like to try others out. I want to to a pet PT sometime, actually (BST, PUP, SMN, DRG).

Hehe, I haven't played in a while except for Limbus.

As for pet parties, they're pretty fun.
I used to team up with beastmasters mid 50's which was a pretty fun experience.

I just want to say that i have tried whm subbed, and the party died very fast. Not sure if this was due to me being inexperienced or the party as a whole. We did have an actual whm there but they wernt very good. Again i had abuse for not keeping them alive :P. They said nothing to the actual main healer.

If you're SMN/WHM, and sitting on a lot of MP and didn't cure when the tank died, you're partly to blame. If you're SMN/anything-but-RDM-or-WHM, you're still partly responsible if party members die while you have MP.

Of course, main healer is more responsible, and tanks themselves have duty for damage mitigation and keeping others from getting hit. Doesn't mean the non-main healer SMN gets off free, though.

If you used up MP while curing and didn't waste the MP you had, then no, you're not to blame. Something else went wrong.

* * *

Don't get me wrong; I don't think SMN's should only cure. What they should do is prioritize and time the BP's and cures correctly; i.e. intelligently use their MP to help party achieve the goal of reasonable kill rate and safety while exp'ing.

* * *

To Freedan:

Again, just stay away from exp parties; don't leech from them. Keep solo'ing however (in)efficiently you prefer, and try not to corrupt up-and-coming SMN's too much.

Oh about the analogy to driving in 1st gear vs. 4th gear. You actually get more bang for the buck driving 35~ mph. It has been tested that driving slower = more milage. oddly enough. I don't think this has anything to do about it, but I just thought I'd put in some nonsense here.

Sorry to derail the debate but I wanted to clarify this since I have done a good amount of work in the mechanic department... A car's maximum fuel efficiancy is reached when the engine's suggested RPMs are being maintained. Meaning, each gear can hit the same MPG. Most cars advertise their MPG at 60 MPH in 4th gear.

But, but! What about drag from tire and air resistance? XD

Besides, I thought the MPG figures are determined by EPA testing methods, and the two numbers (highway and local) are actually computed from dyno testings at various speeds, using a secret math formula us mere mortals not privileged to know.

Getting rid of stop and go traffic during commute hours probably would do more for actual fuel efficiency of the U.S. fleet than anything else, I think. That, and make 90% of urban SUV drivers switch to a van/minivan/station wagon/hatch back instead.

I didn't mention how they came across the numbers, I said when they are reached on the road. Yes, there are many variables involved when you are driving, but they are just that, variable.

Edit: I should have mentioned the above is highway MPG... Stop and go traffic is more taxing on your engine, resulting in a lower MPG.

Can this thread beat a dead horse any further?

Really though, I post and peruse these forums due to the generally welcoming, anti-flame, educational atmosphere of the the community (as opposed to say KI or Alla) and the behaviour and commentary of some of the posters has been counter to the general attitude of the boards which (presumably) most folk here also gather for.

OP had a rant that started about /BLM and evolved into a rant about effectively abuse about that sub. Many have thrown out suggestions, explanations, condolances, and in general tried to help the OP in one of these ways. Kudos and awesome-sauce.

Really though, if you don't have anything else to say other than 'quit being an idiot', is it really neccessary to keep posting it? You can always PM someone to tell them they're a jack*** and no need to air dirty laundry in the street.

To the OP, I empathize that you had abuse hurled at you in game about your sub but as many here have already mentioned, do your research and realize it can/will happen. You have options of soloing, changing, or whatever. Really, nothing stops both you and them from just ignoring one another.

My 2 cents is really just to suggest the /WHM and either party with friends, ls mates, or search out good parties, ones with a dedicated WHM maybe. I'm only 31 SMN so far and I've never been main heal so far (I know that mostly comes later with Spring Water and Healing Wind or whatever Garuda's is). But Mp conservation and being able to back up your WHM is in general more helpful to your party and your personal survival.

As to the mindset of 'don't level SMN without Fenrir or Diabolos', well IMO they're luxuries. They won't make or break your party. At higher levels they going to be very useful, but not to the point where I'd neccessarily say level something else to 60-75 first so you can have them. I could be wrong and if anyone feels the need to educate me on it, sweets. All knowledge is worth having.

I'm starting to get rambly, so in short...boo to dead horse burgers, /joy to a haven of ventation and education. (yeah, I did just make up 'ventation' but it's about all I had atm >.> ) Apologies for the novel and no you can not have a Reader's Digest Version XD

Oh and Freedan, your an "person lacking in subnormal intelligence, borderlined between a half-wit & imbecile". That's just my diversified opinion.

Wow personal attack :thumbsup:

Just remember any idiot can level a flavor of the week/month job to 75. If I can do the things I want to do and still enjoy my time spent in Vana'Diel. Who is the bigger idiot, the person that is having fun or the one that walks the same path as hundreds of others?

Lemming Much? :wtf:

Who is the bigger idiot, the person that is having fun or the one that walks the same path as hundreds of others?

What if someone has fun while walking the same path as hundreds of others?

Wow personal attack :thumbsup:
Just remember any idiot can level a flavor of the week/month job to 75. If I can do the things I want to do and still enjoy my time spent in Vana'Diel. Who is the bigger idiot, the person that is having fun or the one that walks the same path as hundreds of others?
Lemming Much? :wtf:If none of your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump to be different?

I mean, any idiot can walk from one side of a bridge to the other, but I guess it takes someone of your superior creative spirit to think of crashing into the current and washing up on the opposite shore.

Do you realize that in your little one-man rebellion against the oppression of good, useful subjobs you're displaying the same smug, stubborn, self-righteous and unreasoning attitude that you characterize the users of mainstream subjobs as having?

Personally, I think if a person is having fun and enjoying their time spent here on earth by dashing his head into walls, that person is still an idiot. I don't care how mundane they feel it would be to walk right past the wall without any interaction. The fact that they're having fun doesn't make them any more intelligent for acting like a retard.

If none of your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump to be different?

QFT :rofl: .

Actually, not just quoted for truth, quited because it's so darn quotable! I think I'm even going to put this in my currently non-existant signature.

But it does make me upset that /WHM and /RDM are really the only viable subs for Summoner possible by most extensions of the imagination. The point is, you can't make a case for anything else! (Maybe /BLU, /NIN, and I've even heard of /SAM before in solo.)

With something like Red Mage, one could argue almost any job as a sub, minus pet jobs, plus maybe Puppetmaster. But with Summoner, you're on a one-way journey through the Valley of Searching for Group if you do anything other than /WHM, or /RDM, or /BLU if you're lucky.

If none of your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump to be different?

Base Jumpers do it all the time, if it wasn't fun they wouldn't be doing it.

Do you realize that in your little one-man rebellion against the oppression of good, useful subjobs you're displaying the same smug, stubborn, self-righteous and unreasoning attitude that you characterize the users of mainstream subjobs as having?

You know, I don't actually have a problem with /WHM, its the fact that /WHM being FORCED on the populace is what bothers me.:vent:
Siding with the majority and playing in a way that you don't want to is nothing short of a cop-out.

Just because one job combination isn't as "efficient" as another, doesn't make the less "efficient" playstyle any less valid.

Personally, I think if a person is having fun and enjoying their time spent here on earth by dashing his head into walls, that person is still an idiot. I don't care how mundane they feel it would be to walk right past the wall without any interaction. The fact that they're having fun doesn't make them any more intelligent for acting like a retard.

People do lots of things in this world for enjoyment that I find odd.
Jumping out of a perfectly good airplane?
Swimming with Sharks?
Eating Puffer Fish?
Snow boarding down an Avalanche?
And many many more activities.

But do I go out of my way to change them, tell them to lead normal lives? NO. I don't.
Why are /WHM users pushing their play style on to others?




**Puffer fish is highly poisonious if it isn't prepared just right

Just because one job combination isn't as "efficient" as another, doesn't make the less "efficient" playstyle any less valid.

In party play, yes it does ... a party needs people to pull their weight, or the person who isn't is leeching off the ones that are to a lesser or greater extent.

But, but! What about drag from tire and air resistance? XD

Besides, I thought the MPG figures are determined by EPA testing methods, and the two numbers (highway and local) are actually computed from dyno testings at various speeds, using a secret math formula us mere mortals not privileged to know.

Getting rid of stop and go traffic during commute hours probably would do more for actual fuel efficiency of the U.S. fleet than anything else, I think. That, and make 90% of urban SUV drivers switch to a van/minivan/station wagon/hatch back instead.

The epa standards are incorrect. They are being revised for 2008. Your current milage on all and or most vehicles are suppose to be lower than what they are being displayed at the seller's slip.

Check out http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

All vehicles are rated lower due to several factors. Some being engine and design, other being driving style of the driver, i.e. Jackrabbit starts, etc.

Oh and Freedan, go level SMN to 75, then come talk with the rest of us. Make sure you DON'T sub WHM. Ok pumpkin?
Same with Vildar. Look you have the entire friggin' community here telling you the pros and cons of what to sub. It's time to close this thread, and make your own decision. After 3 pages of argument "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" falls true to this. Sorry to be so harsh, but damn, you guys are so stubborn, fine, go solo for your exp, go do what you want.

Oh another suggestion Vildar, maybe you should level a more "galka type job" first, afford some astral rings, and wear them while leveling SMN. You never mentioned your equipment so I'll just make an ass-u-me and think that you don't have any astrals.

Wow Omniblast, you sound a little upset.

What does it matter to you how others chose to play? You found a comfortable, safe path that has been proven/beloved. Good for you. Now let others play how they want. If you don't like their choices, don't party with them.

As for telling a new player to go get 2 Astral Rings, or any equipment for that matter, before playing a certain job . . . . . . . . Wow, just wow :eek:

In party play, yes it does ... a party needs people to pull their weight, or the person who isn't is leeching off the ones that are to a lesser or greater extent.

If everyone in the party has to pull their own weight, then can you tell me why there are level 50+ parties with Power Levelers? :huh:

This thread needs to die, I think. I can make a summation that:

1) /WHM is generally considered, by the community, the best sub for SMN up to endgame
2) you can sub whatever you like under SMN but you shouldn't complain when people ask you to change, because they have just as much right to try to form a party which they consider most efficient as you do to experimentation
3) analogies can often be taken completely out of control and/or context.

Sub what you like but if it's not what people want then you have to make allowances for a lack of invites or requests to change. Either that or solo for your EXP. Whether or not people are rude about it is an entirely different matter - that's up to their personality.

On top of all that, if you still don't agree with Freedan and Vildar, then don't invite them. They have made it clear that they are sticking to their beliefs which should be fine frankly. Everyone's presented good arguments but in the end, it's their decision as to what they want to do.

As for telling a new player to go get 2 Astral Rings, or any equipment for that matter, before playing a certain job . . . . . . . . Wow, just wow :eek:

Way NOT to read what Omni put... he never suggested that at all.

Wow Omniblast, you sound a little upset.

What does it matter to you how others chose to play?
Um... Most of the upset people are angry (or disgusted) with you because you're not listening, and willfully ignoring sound argument of why /WHM is good by countering with such unimpressive idea as substituting 20MP Blink with a 95MP Aerial Armor, and packing inventory full of stuff you wouldn't need as much simply by using /WHM.

Yes, you're clever enough to come up with all sorts of qusi-workaround for most shortcomings of other support jobs. No, that doesn't mean you're smart to pick something other than /WHM--the SMART thing to do is to choose the support job with most benefits and the fewest pitfalls, THEN equip yourself to address the shortcomings.

The anger will die down fast if you can just admit this: "Well, with the game as it's designed, /WHM is better for party and most solo'ing--but if I solo on something else it's OK and won't hurt anyone else." Heck, if you do that, I'll /clap.

You found a comfortable, safe path that has been proven/beloved. Good for you. Now let others play how they want. If you don't like their choices, don't party with them.

Go back and read how many people say some variation of "fine, go solo that if that's what you want to sub". You're the one who keep picking fights with the forum.

Just don't mess up the newbies with your bizarre advocacy.

As for telling a new player to go get 2 Astral Rings, or any equipment for that matter, before playing a certain job . . . . . . . . Wow, just wow :eek:
See above about "you're not listening", and re-read Omniblast's post again--he said no such thing, and didn't even come close to implying it.

* * *

What I truly don't get is this: what's to hate about /WHM? Status removal -na spells, Sneak, Invisible, Cure, Blink, Stoneskin, Regen, Auto-Regen, and teleport all for you to use, for a little MP. If S-E didn't offer WHM for this game, I'd club them over the head to add it.

Don't like main healing? Fine, don't party. The BRD in my PLD's static party leveled his WHM to Lv.36 mostly solo with NPC Fellow. You don't have to be a cure bot to play SMN/WHM, or even WHM.

Way NOT to read what Omni put... he never suggested that at all.

Oh another suggestion Vildar, maybe you should level a more "galka type job" first, afford some astral rings, and wear them while leveling SMN. You never mentioned your equipment so I'll just make an ass-u-me and think that you don't have any astrals.

If that doesn't mean go play a more "efficient" galka type job, get Astrals before you play SMN, then I guess I don't understand English.

This thread needs to die, I think. I can make a summation that:

1) /WHM is generally considered, by the community, the best sub for SMN up to endgame
2) you can sub whatever you like under SMN but you shouldn't complain when people ask you to change, because they have just as much right to try to form a party which they consider most efficient as you do to experimentation
3) analogies can often be taken completely out of control and/or context.

Sub what you like but if it's not what people want then you have to make allowances for a lack of invites or requests to change. Either that or solo for your EXP. Whether or not people are rude about it is an entirely different matter - that's up to their personality.

On top of all that, if you still don't agree with Freedan and Vildar, then don't invite them. They have made it clear that they are sticking to their beliefs which should be fine frankly. Everyone's presented good arguments but in the end, it's their decision as to what they want to do.

Pretty much sums it up.

The anger will die down fast if you can just admit this: "Well, with the game as it's designed, /WHM is better for party and most solo'ing--but if I solo on something else it's OK and won't hurt anyone else." Heck, if you do that, I'll /clap.

Changing One's play style just because of the Many, is nothing short of a cop-out.
Could this be the root of all the hostility? SMNs that have reached "End Game" as a healer, I ask you, when you first read about SMN adv jobs, what did you think SMN was?

After you did get SMN and was told to heal, did it made you bitter? Could this hidden bitterness translate into, "How dare these upstart SMN have the audacity to play any other way than that of a healer!?"

If the SMN was defined as /WHM only, why not go play WHM main? Wouldn't that make more sense!?



And IfritnoItazura, I turn down every pt offer I get on my SMN/NIN. If you are on Hades, I'll show you what an Insane SMN/NIN can do. Trust me, I wish my DRK can do 1/4th what my SMN/NIN can do and survive.

Some SMN/WHM's i have met have said that they dont sub whm because they want to, they do it because they have to. Also i told a party i did not want to be a main healer, even though they had a perfectly good white mage in the party. I just got kicked straight out even thoug i had whm as my sub.

BTW, my eqpuipment is just basic level 11-12 stuff with a Gelong staff.

Actually before I hang up my hat I just wanted to add something:

Since when did subbing WHM automatically deny you of 'being a Summoner'? I've levelled SMN to 44 so far with WHM sub and it still didn't stop me from using my Bloodpacts whenever they were available. It's not like having an avatar out or ordering a BP stops you from Curing or anything. I never understood this argument that subbing WHM stops you from being a SMN.

The party has actualy said that if i summon, i will be kicked. They wanted me to be a healer even though they had a perfectly capable white mage.

Some SMN/WHM's i have met have said that they dont sub whm because they want to, they do it because they have to. Also i told a party i did not want to be a main healer, even though they had a perfectly good white mage in the party. I just got kicked straight out even thoug i had whm as my sub.
BTW, my eqpuipment is just basic level 11-12 stuff with a Gelong staff.

Gelong staff won't do anything for you, you would be better trying to get a staff with mp, or a pilgrims wand.

I have the feeling that you are not telling all about what happened in your party where you were told "if you summoned, you are kicked". Noone would say that without some kind of provocation.

Thats it, if i summoned i would have been kicked. They wanted me to use all of my mp for healing, even though the whm could handle it easy.

This thread needs sending to the depths of ..... erm.... somewhere
Seriously why are the arguments flying like mad here?
We ALL know how the game is designed and that the most common /subs are the ones that have been tested to great length not to mention the lvl 75 summoners that have said /Whm is the best way to go.
seeing as the op is a summoner, they had to go through at least 30 lvls of exping, plus gather the weather conditions. so some degree of knowledge "SHOULD" have been aquired.
The op should have noticed the lack of smn/blm and wondered why.

to the op, to be fair everything but whm is too handicapped to be usefull, be thankfull you can sub whm and you cant resist cures lol. /blm post 30 for certain your spells will practically suck donkey dick,

to th Op, yes its your fees blah blah blah but the people you play with also pay their hard earned money too.

please just accept what is the norm, and hope you find some people that are willing to experiment with the game mechanics.

and most of all good luck to you! :thumbsup:

AND PLEASE somebody with the power lock this silly tread down before we have another psa

lol :thumbsup:

As someone said earlier, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." I think all that can be said regarding this has already been said in widely varying tones of voice. I resolve not to post anymore on this thread. I'm not going to lock it, but I leave it to the other users posting on it to exert their self control and let the thread die.

I really feel sorry for those that are trying to tell op and all those that say "they can play whatever sub they want because they have the right to choose their play style" instead of what is accepted by most.

Reason why people are in a party is because they want to level up faster. In order to do so you need certain job with certain sub to do so. If I were in a party I wouldn't want to 1K/hr when I can get like 5K/hr. If I wanted 1K/hr I'll so and keep all the drops to myself. When you're in a party everyone needs to work together to make the party go smooth

I just think it's hilarious how adamant some people are in trying to get people to conform to what is "acceptable" and "un-acceptable". Perhaps a reflection of society? ;)

It is a game, after all...

Changing One's play style just because of the Many, is nothing short of a cop-out.
Cop-out? No. Compromise? Yes.

Compromise is not always a bad thing. If you join a 3-on-3 pick-up basketball game, and 5 people want to play half court while you want to play full court, it is not a "cop-out" to agree to a half court game.

I just think it's hilarious how adamant some people are in trying to get people to conform to what is "acceptable" and "un-acceptable". Perhaps a reflection of society? ;)

It is a game, after all...
Makes me think of this quote

My game will be completely unfair.
There was another one from that episode along the lines of, "Humans show their true nature when playing a game" or something to that meaning.

And IfritnoItazura, I turn down every pt offer I get on my SMN/NIN. If you are on Hades, I'll show you what an Insane SMN/NIN can do. Trust me, I wish my DRK can do 1/4th what my SMN/NIN can do and survive.

Rofl the only reason your getting invited because they want you to sub /whm so you can main heal because there's no other whm around! rofl!!!!

Rofl the only reason your getting invited because they want you to sub /whm so you can main heal because there's no other whm around! rofl!!!! Really, was that tone called for?

Really, was that tone called for?
Yeah it was a bit over the top, but honestly, is this thread is just too much.
I have to find some humor here. After all, you can't spell slaughter without laughter! hahaha~~!

I have found some humor in that a single person that simply does not want to conform to mob rule can cause a considerable amount of stress for others

:)

I truely wonder reading a couple of replies..

Hasn't the true discussion ended 7 pages ago?

I truely wonder reading a couple of replies..

Hasn't the true discussion ended 7 pages ago?

The true discussion didn't start until page 2 ;)

The true discussion didn't start until page 2 ;)
Since this is page 8 and the 'discussion' ended pretty much when it started, that would be 7 pages ago.

Page 8? it's page 4 for me., wth is going on with the paging system?

Since this is page 8 and the 'discussion' ended pretty much when it started, that would be 7 pages ago.

That depends on what you think the 8 pages worth of discussion is actually about.

The party has actualy said that if i summon, i will be kicked. They wanted me to be a healer even though they had a perfectly capable white mage.

If this is really true, I would leave the party faster than the party leader press the kick button. However, whenever I party with SMN in exp. parties, or any other jobs, I expect the party member understand his role and know what he is doing.

I may sound harsh, but how am I suppost to work with SMN/BLM as a team if the SMN/BLM does not even know his role and what he is doing?

Changing One's play style just because of the Many, is nothing short of a cop-out.
I guess I failed to convey yet again that you're free to solo as you see fit. :rolleyes:

Could this be the root of all the hostility? SMNs that have reached "End Game" as a healer, I ask you, when you first read about SMN adv jobs, what did you think SMN was?
WHM44 here. I happen to like main healing, among other things. SMN is not so much an "adv" job as an "Extra Job"--i.e. unlockable. What do I think it is? It's a hybrid job mixing support role and DD when used correctly, and can take on the healer role with /WHM.

If you're actually interested in my opinion (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/frequently-asked-questions/66059-job-should-i-play.html) of SMN:
Note that Jobs aren't very distinctive from one another at lower levels; many melee jobs especially suffer from that. That's why a "Suggested Lv." is given for each Job--how far to take a Job in order to get a feel for how it would be like later on.

The "Minimal Support Job(s)" are just the subjob(s) needed to reach the suggested levels; if taking the job to 75, likely others would be needed. (The major support job for each is listed under "Main Support Job(s)", and they are needed for exp'ing and/or end game.)

SMN ((Summoner (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Summoner)))
Suggested Lv: 25
Role(s): Support, Healer, Damage Dealer, Solo'er.
Minimal Support Job(s): /WHM
Main Support Job(s): /WHM
Description:
Summoner is difficult to get a handle on. It (slowly) gains many useful support Blood Pacts as it levels, but it does not have any Refresh like capability. Its Avatars can open/close any skillchain, but generally not for great deal of damage. It can also Magic Burst for respectable damage, but not at all levels. It has a huge MP pool for healing, but is capped at Cure III from /WHM. It's a good addition for a balanced party with everything already, though it's usually brought in as a main healer. It can solo ably on Bomb and Worm type of monsters outside of parties for experience points.

A long, rewarding growth curve and a diverse set of abilities makes SMN ideal for players looking for a challenge. Lv.25 is recommended; at that level, its ability includes tier II elemental magic BP's (Lv.10), Aerial Armor (Lv.25) buff, Lunar Cry (Lv.21) debuff, the ability to open and close all Lv.2 skillchain, and Cure II from /WHM (Lv.22). Those are just the tip of a SMN's eventual power, but already cover all the basics with examples of useful buff, debuff, healing, skillchain, and Magic Burst.

Since a SMN is overwhelmingly dependent on its Avatar, getting as many Avatar as possible before partying is a good idea. Certainly all the Celestial Avatars (Ifrit, Shiva, Garuda, Titan, Ramuh, and Leviathan) should be obtained, and Fenrir is highly recommend. Equipment wise, it's hMP/MP gear, and elemental staves (Lv.51) to save on perpetuation cost. Soloing SMN should obtain the HQ Light Staff, Apollo's Staff (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Apollo%27s_Staff), and enmity reduction gear as soon as possible.

Oh, I've taught a few SMN's to skillchain before I unlocked the job myself. I don't believe SMN's role is "cure bot only", and in fact demand they be more useful than that.

If the SMN was defined as /WHM only, why not go play WHM main? Wouldn't that make more sense!?
Again, it's just about efficiency. Same reason PLD go with /WAR for most levels, same reason BRD's tend to use /WHM for most situations. And again, solo as you please, just don't deny /WHM is good is, and it is what new SMN's should have ready for use.

And IfritnoItazura, I turn down every pt offer I get on my SMN/NIN.
Good.

If you are on Hades, I'll show you what an Insane SMN/NIN can do.
Oh, I think I can guess. Utusemi is more reliable than Blink, so you don't get hit much on carby/Fenrir re-summon. But, you'd have no Stoneskin, bar- spells, or Shell to mitigate bomb explosion/Goblin bomb toss, or worm's Stonega spells.

You'd also spend a little more money on consumables (Prism Powder and Silent Oil, for starters), and have a little less MP buffer. Likely, you'd also believe Utsusemi is terrific because you'd lose enmity for every shadow consumed. (While true, it's not much enmity.)

Did I leave out anything major? (BTW, I've duo'ed with a BST friend on WHM/NIN before--pretty sure I understand the basics of /NIN.)

IfritnoItazura

Nope, the main reason why I'm subing NIN for Dual-Wield, Utsusemi is just an extra bonus.

SMN gets access to very nice +evasion gears

Bastokan Dagger +2 acc/+2evasion
Republic Dagger +2 acc/+3evasion
Compound Eye Circlet +5
Scentless Armlets +5
Martial Slacks +3
Air Solea +4
Mythril Earring +1x2 +6
Jack-o'-Lantern +10 acc/+10evasion

My other equipment that are "odd" on a mage job

Spike Neclace +3 str/+3dex
Courage Ring x2 +4 str
I'll switch to Hume Male RSE (+3 str/+3 dex) gloves depending on how much the mob is hitting me. Same goes for the Mythril Earrings +1, I'll switch to Beetle Earrings +1 if the mob isn't hitting me much.

Reason why I don't use Astrals is that I rather have th HP and +4 str.

with /nin I don't need powder, Tonko does the job just fine and I can use it at level 18 SMN, compared to level 50 with Invis. You can use Uts at level 24, Blink at level 38.
You'll have to be level 66 to use Reraise, only 60 for reraise hairpin.

I've read all the guides for SMN, and I chuck them out the window. I'm making this up as I go because playing an unpopular job combination means that there aren't any guides I can follow.

You can't make a /NIN or any other combination and follow the path/gear of a /WHM, it just won't work.

My tactics:

Uts goes up
Summons Garuda
/Assult
/pet "Claw" <bt>
I join with daggers, yes daggers, swinging
If I lose 2 shadows, recast Uts
The mob is normally dead before it gets pass my second set of Shadows.

If the mob isn't dead when I have 100 tp and BP is up, I can SC with Garuda using Gust Slash.

As a new player, I soloed Rank 2-3 Dragon fight as a Great Sword War/Thf when others told me that it was "impossible". To most of you its just Rank 2-3 dragon fight, yawn. Do the fight solo and tell me how it feels.

Trail Blazing your own path is much more rewarding than simply following some one else path.

(Excitment) (Yes, please)

IfritnoItazura

Nope, the main reason why I'm subing NIN for Dual-Wield, Utsusemi is just an extra bonus.

SMN gets access to very nice +evasion gears

Bastokan Dagger +2 acc/+2evasion
Republic Dagger +2 acc/+3evasion
Compound Eye Circlet +5
Scentless Armlets +5
Martial Slacks +3
Air Solea +4
Mythril Earring +1x2 +6
Jack-o'-Lantern +10 acc/+10evasion

My other equipment that are "odd" on a mage job

Spike Neclace +3 str/+3dex
Courage Ring x2 +4 str
I'll switch to Hume Male RSE (+3 str/+3 dex) gloves depending on how much the mob is hitting me. Same goes for the Mythril Earrings +1, I'll switch to Beetle Earrings +1 if the mob isn't hitting me much.

Reason why I don't use Astrals is that I rather have th HP and +4 str.

with /nin I don't need powder, Tonko does the job just fine and I can use it at level 18 SMN, compared to level 50 with Invis. You can use Uts at level 24, Blink at level 38.
You'll have to be level 66 to use Reraise, only 60 for reraise hairpin.

I've read all the guides for SMN, and I chuck them out the window. I'm making this up as I go because playing an unpopular job combination means that there aren't any guides I can follow.

You can't make a /NIN or any other combination and follow the path/gear of a /WHM, it just won't work.

My tactics:

Uts goes up
Summons Garuda
/Assult
/pet "Claw" <bt>
I join with daggers, yes daggers, swinging
If I lose 2 shadows, recast Uts
The mob is normally dead before it gets pass my second set of Shadows.

If the mob isn't dead when I have 100 tp and BP is up, I can SC with Garuda using Gust Slash.

As a new player, I soloed Rank 2-3 Dragon fight as a Great Sword War/Thf when others told me that it was "impossible". To most of you its just Rank 2-3 dragon fight, yawn. Do the fight solo and tell me how it feels.

Trail Blazing your own path is much more rewarding than simply following some one else path.

(Excitment) (Yes, please)

Solo Rank 2-3 Dragon as Great Sword WAR/THF has nothing to do with the topic of this thread...

As for solo, SMN/WHM at your level can use the same gear, same food, same pet as your SMN/NIN is using. The only difference is instead of using Utsusemi: Ichi, /WHM use cures to migrate damage. SMN/WHM can solo just fine at this level.

Solo Rank 2-3 Dragon as Great Sword WAR/THF has nothing to do with the topic of this thread...

As for solo, SMN/WHM at your level can use the same gear, same food, same pet as your SMN/NIN is using. The only difference is instead of using Utsusemi: Ichi, /WHM use cures to migrate damage. SMN/WHM can solo just fine at this level.

Curing is a way to "migrate" damage at the cost of your MP, don't forget, your MP is also being eaten away. The gear I use doesn't have +MP, I depend more on Evasion to get me through the fight. If you went with +MP gear, you'll have more MP, but you'll get hit more because you won't have as high Evasion.

But how does any of you know what another subjob can do if you, yourself, has never tried it and only listen to others?

The Rank 2-3 Dragon fight was just an example of how you can accomplish things that others has deemed "impossible", not because they have tried it, but because of what "others" had told them.

Curing is a way to "migrate" damage at the cost of your MP, don't forget, your MP is also being eaten away. The gear I use doesn't have +MP, I depend more on Evasion to get me through the fight. If you went with +MP gear, you'll have more MP, but you'll get hit more because you won't have as high Evasion.

But how does any of you know what another subjob can do if you, yourself, has never tried it and only listen to others?

The Rank 2-3 Dragon fight was just an example of how you can accomplish things that others has deemed "impossible", not because they have tried it, but because of what "others" had told them.

You make a lot of assumptions, do you?

1st, I never say solo Rank 2-3 Dragon as Great Axe WAR/THF is impossible. Tools selection from Bloody Bolts ... to medicines like Icarus Wing and all kinds of Portions, I don't see any reason why it is impossible. Btw, instead of Great Sword, I prefer Great Axe... Might Strike + Sturmwind would end the fight sooner...

2nd, I never mention any +MP gear. For jobs that consumes MP, MP recovery is the way to go in long run, not maximum MP. Swap in gear for MP regeneration while healing, use food like cookies, or make juice in battlefield is common practice.

3rd, I never say /NIN is not working. As for using tools offer by NIN, a lot of posters on this thread had NIN leveled. I am not sure how much experience you have with NIN and /NIN, as a NIN approaching lvl 70 I well aware of the restriction of Evasion and Uts: ichi alone. There are mobs in that are designed to tear shadows apart... both /whm and /nin has their uses, it is situational.

Let's just leave him alone; he seems happy Dual Wielding an E rated weapon and patting himself on the back with how he manages to enhance his E rated evasion. Guess he doesn't exp off of exploding mobs like other SMN's.

He's not doing anyone else any harm anyway, since he only solo's on his SMN/NIN.

Hypothermal Combustion (Yes, please!) yay 500 exp.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/omniblast/525exp.jpg

You know... I can't even get that much exp anymore on bombs. *sigh* I miss those days of soloing bombs.

Hypothermal Combustion (Yes, please!) yay 500 exp.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/omniblast/525exp.jpg

You know... I can't even get that much exp anymore on bombs. *sigh* I miss those days of soloing bombs.

I do miss those days, however even if the exp rate on them has dropped a lot these are still pretty good to solo if you want to make the trip all the way up to that camp.
(I only do when I plan to stay up there for a couple of days.)
Otherwise I go to sea to solo Hpemde or Ghrah or when Caedarva mire is quiet the Imps also give pretty good exp.

With no disrespect to Freedan, If your character info under your name is correct.
At your current level nin sub might work out you, however you're now reaching levels where mobs get a lot more HP, attack faster, hit harder and you'll notice their accuracy has increased considerably.
You'll also start to notice the mobs you fight will have an increased rate of evasion of which your dagger skill won't be sufficient to get a good DoT on them.
Hate controll is also something you will learn pretty fast about when you keep soloing as it will become harder for your avatar to grab hate away from you as you melee alongside it casting utsusemi doing weapon skills.

Later on you'll also have to sacrifice a lot of that melee gear to maintain avatar upkeep as your avatars will become more expensive in perpetuation cost every few levels you get making meleeing alongside your avatar on anything higher then low decent challenge monsters less viable.

If it keeps working for you though I'd love to read some details on how you do it.

I just think it's hilarious how adamant some people are in trying to get people to conform to what is "acceptable" and "un-acceptable". Perhaps a reflection of society? ;)

It is a game, after all...
If anything, the people who consider themselves non-conformists are the ones who are most adamant about their position. They defend their position with a religious zeal, as if any criticism to their position is a threat to their very existence.

We "conformists" could simply post "yeah, just do what you want", rather than posting useful information on the pros and cons of the topic at hand. But what's the point in that? That adds nothing of value to a discussion.

Wow Omniblast, you sound a little upset.
What does it matter to you how others chose to play?
It matters when one of those beautiful and unique snowflakes shows up in one of his parties, or hurts the reputation of his job in the eyes of other players by their behavior in *their* parties. (How few bad DRGs did it take to create the impression that it was a weak job?)
You found a comfortable, safe path that has been proven/beloved. Good for you. Now let others play how they want. If you don't like their choices, don't party with them.
Sure, if they're going to be courteous enough to inform other players that their choice is going to be what is fun for them individually and not what is effective for the group, that's fine. I think Omni is reacting to the people who *don't* warn their group members of this, but then play however they want regardless of how it affects the other 5 people in their group. Such people do deserve condemnation, regardless of whether or not you personally are one of them.


If there really are parties that still tell SMNs not to summon at all, then they're... well, this board has anti-flaming rules so I won't give my full opinion of their intelligence and manners. And I have no quarrel with SMN who don't want to main heal (they should probably put it in their search comment to prevent misunderstandings, though).

But there are very few circumstances where *some* use of /WHM (in addition to whatever you're doing with your summons) isn't more beneficial *to the party* than what you can do with any other subjob, in a party situation. And if you're not going to play in a way that benefits the party, you have an obligation to warn them of that in advance, because the standard for party play is for everyone to contribute as much as they reasonably can to maximize the total effectiveness and success of the party.
As for telling a new player to go get 2 Astral Rings, or any equipment for that matter, before playing a certain job . . . . . . . . Wow, just wow :eek:
Well, as far as Astral Rings I agree, but... "any equipment"? You really don't mind if people show up naked, or with equipment that's totally unsuited to their job, much lower level than their actual level, etc.? I'm pretty generous in what I consider acceptable exp party equipment (I think), but to have no expectations at all is going a bit far, I think, even for mages.

Basically, I think that when you put on that LFP flag, you're saying that you're ready and willing to contribute to the success of a party. Therefore, other players have a right to be pissed if you're *not* ready and willing to contribute to the success of their party, and just intend to freeload and place your own fun ahead of the rest of the party's benefit.

It matters when one of those beautiful and unique snowflakes shows up in one of his parties

LOL Anna the WHM/THF. Nice reference.

LOL Anna the WHM/THF. Nice reference.

Oh god, I read about her and nearly died laughing...

SMN/NIN isn't really a bad solo option at lower levels. Utsusemi : Ichi is more reliable than Blink and is acquired much earlier, while costing no MP. I don't think boosting Evasion is the way to go, under that circumstance, especially at the cost of wielding such pathetically weak weapons as Bastokan Daggers with an E skill rank. If you absolutely must be in the middle of a fight when solo on Summoner, you should skip the whole dual wield and go with a decent staff, which at least gives you a reasonable chance to hit and build TP for a skillchain.

Later on, to emphasize what's already been posted, yes, you do get access to some reasonably good Evasion gear on Summoner even at higher levels. However, nothing can fix your E ranked Evasion skill (similar to WHM), and if you think loading up on Evasion + Utsusemi: Ichi will make you less squishy as a solo Summoner, I think cold hard reality is going to throw you a very strong right hook to the jaw.

Things change a bit at level 74+, as you get access to Utsusemi: Ni, which again gives you some new defensive options, depending on the enemy.

Even so, as long as you're solo, no harm, no foul, do whatever you like (but you might want to stay /anon to avoid trashing your own reputation when you actually do go seeking for parties). As pointed out above, though, the best way to solo isn't up front and in your face for Summoners at many levels; you're much better off taking on things that are high XP and blow themselves to bits.


Icemage

LOL Anna the WHM/THF. Nice reference.
Who's that? And, what is her reason for a WHM/THF? (Using the word "reason" loosely...)

Just some idiot from the Alla boards who became semi-legendary for her rabid defense of WHM/THF as an all around useful combo because she pays her money to play the game damn it, etc.

Just some idiot from the Alla boards who became semi-legendary for her rabid defense of WHM/THF as an all around useful combo because she pays her money to play the game damn it, etc.

Because it so awesome when its the only subjob you have.

Something like that, yeah.

Thank you Freedan.

Im a new/returning player at 26 blm right now and have been dabating with myself over wether to go smn/blm like i wanted or obey the SMN guides all over the internets. Luckily, i found this and now im not gonna' cop out.

FREEEEDOM!!!!1!


Also, I really don't understand all the personel attacks being thrown at the /blm in here. Try /grow-up

been dabating with myself over wether to go smn/blm like i wanted or obey the SMN guides all over the internets. Luckily, i found this and now im not gonna' cop out.

Go for it--outside of parties. No one would care if you're SMN/BLM as long as you're soloing.

* * *

Had a Lv.66-ish SMN in Colibri party who had avatar out melee'ing and doing (mostly) Blood Pact: Rage in party the other night. He and his avatars togather marginally to out damage the DRG's Wyvern (7% vs. 6%? lol), but lost out to the damage output of a PLD on mostly defensive gear, big time. That's a PLD who was nearly Flashed a quarter of the time, BTW, with the resulting terrible melee accuracy.

Later on, someone reminded him that a SMN/WHM can Cure. Then, he actually became useful. Would've been better if he also used support BP's more often, but at least he pulled his own weight.

How much more damage do you supposed a SMN/BLM can do compared to SMN/WHM at that level? :rolleyes:

* * *

Be different? Sure, why not.

Be ineffective? Get out of my party.

i am a lvl 31 SMN 15 WHM and yes i feel the stress of having to cure when you really want to summon, but in all fairness its tough shit. If you wish to solo then yes nuke what ever you want but when it comes down to it from 1-75 your pretty much a sub/main healer for parties. if you dont like that then you should change jobs because your in for one hell of a ride if you carry on the way you are.

I'm currently 24 SMN, and have been asked if I could main heal, but all it took was something like "well I don't have Cure II yet so that might be a problem" and they always responded reasonably. I've never had to actually play as main healer yet. Backup healer, yes, but that's something I can handle.

Just make it clear that even though you can heal (because you have an MP pool) doesn't mean you will be effective enough.

Thank you Freedan.

Im a new/returning player at 26 blm right now and have been dabating with myself over wether to go smn/blm like i wanted or obey the SMN guides all over the internets. Luckily, i found this and now im not gonna' cop out.

FREEEEDOM!!!!1!


Also, I really don't understand all the personel attacks being thrown at the /blm in here. Try /grow-up

The thread is dead. On another note, when you actually think about, no job subs blm over whm in a party except the White Mage itself. The reason people ~would like~ Red Mage, Bard, Summoner, and Black Mage (sometimes Corsair too) with White Mage sub is because they can backup the main healer. The same rules apply to tanks usually. People ~would like~ a war with a nin sub to backup tank (plus people like dual wield anyhow). People ~would like~ to have some of the melee jobs with war sub to backup tank. It's pretty much a battle between FUN and NEEDS FOR OTHERS.

Also...weren't you the person who bumped another dead thread that was about a guy who wanted to release his frustration a bit by telling us about a guy on his server named Fearkiller? Anyway, you have all the information you need on these posts + informative FFXI websites.

The thread is dead. On another note, when you actually think about, no job subs blm over whm in a party except the White Mage itself. The reason people ~would like~ Red Mage, Bard, Summoner, and Black Mage (sometimes Corsair too) with White Mage sub is because they can backup the main healer. The same rules apply to tanks usually. People ~would like~ a war with a nin sub to backup tank (plus people like dual wield anyhow). People ~would like~ to have some of the melee jobs with war sub to backup tank. It's pretty much a battle between FUN and NEEDS FOR OTHERS.

Also...weren't you the person who bumped another dead thread that was about a guy who wanted to release his frustration a bit by telling us about a guy on his server named Fearkiller? Anyway, you have all the information you need on these posts + informative FFXI websites.

Actually, I don't think this thread was dead, i mean there's hardly any info on these forums about smn subs besides whm so we should talk about it. Also, I feel like I had something to contribute to this discussion as a future smn facing this same dilemma.

And yeah that was me, but re-read the last 5 p