Haste vs Refueling

[Kasandaro]

Question for y'all, and I can't find it previously answered in the /search.

Haste is 15% over three minutes, while Refueling is only 10% over five. In a party with RDM + WHM, which I've had a lot of lately, I'm finding that I'll have mp to spare. So I ask the BLU in the party if they'd like Haste (I've played BLU, freeing up set points and mp is a good thing). The responses? I've been told everything from "No thanks" to "h3ll no".

So why would a BLU (assume he's fighting colibri, puk, and eruca) prefer Refueling to Haste?

[Armando]

I'd guess it's most likely because if he had left the Hasting to you, then he's got no guarantee he'll get Haste 24/7. I mean, no offense to you, but let's face it - not all mages are good, and it's not uncommon to see a mage that doesn't keep up a consistent Haste cycle.

Still kinda stupid though.

[Murphie]

I've always gotten the same sort of responses as well. I definitely understand not wanting to trust the mage to keep haste up (because really, if I'm hasting almost the entire party, which I often was/am in meripo, sometimes someone's haste might have to wait a cycle to come back), but if I've got the MP for it, I'm happy to give it t them.

[Malacite]

Can't you just override it anyway, given that Haste is a stronger spell than Refueling? It wouldn't be very practical in terms of MP conservation but you could still do it right?

[Armando]

Not necessarily...a spell's priority and its potency don't always go hand in hand. Acid Bolts (-12.5% Defense) can overwrite (and be overwritten in return) by quite a number of absurdly powerful Defense buffs, Cocoon included. I mean, you could try, but it might not work.

[Hyrist]

I play both a BLU and a RDM so I'll respond.

40 MP form a WHM or a RDM can be spent in much better ways to assist the party then to hast a BLU who's already providing his own. Remember that a BLU's primary weakness is his short MP pool. Truthfully we'd rather a RDM prioritize Refresh on us than haste. (Remember, a RDM's 40 MP used in refresh translates to 160mp for another job, if you have it spare, refresh a job on a lower priority of the scale, like your DRK.)

40 Mp for 3 minutes vrs 29 mp for 5 translates into a large amount of MP saved over time on account of whoever is in charge of hasting. ( 40 MP 3 times in the course of 10 minutes is 120 MP spent or the equivalent of all the MP a RDM would get form a single Refresh duration, while on the other hand a BLU only casts a 29 MP buff twice, or 58 under half the amount another class could cast.) Sure, a BLU mage looses 5% in the trade off, but towards endgame that does not become very important with a haste gear setup.

With 120 MP saved over that course of time, you can spend such MP in other beneficial ways. Using that MP wisely can equate to far more than 5% haste on a BLU, especially if you are aware of the circumstances closely.

There is also the aspect of the time saved. Casting Haste 3 times in the same course of time a BLU could cast it twice can also allow for better focus. The time (thought admitingly small) you cast on Haste could be spent on another spell, such as a needed cure.

In the end it is just more MP convenient for all that BLU does it himself, and it's best not to argue their personal wishes on the matter.

[Malacite]

Cool. Also, Armando brought up something off-topic that's been bugging the hell out of me;

Do Dia and Acid Bolts stack? What about Armor break? I'm confused about stacking def-down abilities, assuming you can.

[Armando]

You can only have one "Defense Down" effect on the mob. And by "Defense Down" I mean the actual status ailment officially recognized by the game as "Defense Down." This includes the procs from corrosive/acid weapons, Armor Break, and apparently Frightful Roar. For that matter, Defense Down and Defense Boost can't coexist. One will always overwrite the other. All Defense Down effects are Wind-based.

Dia/Dia II is its own effect, and on top of that is Light-based so there's no elemental conflicts. You can definetely have both on the same mob. They'd probably stack by multiplication rather than addition just like food and berserk/defender stack by multiplication.

Armor Break is -25% Defense
Full Break is -12.5% Defense
Acid Bolt is -12.5% Defense
Frightful Roar is -10.15% Defense

If you have a Great Axe WAR and a BLU/RNG/THF in the same party, it's preferable to use Shield Break and let the other person take care of Defense Down. Better to have -40 Eva and -12.5% Def than just -25% Def. (For that matter, Shield Break is also preferable due to it's a flat -40 Eva that Sushi can't match in +Acc until MUCH later on, and the fact that Eva Down will help you get TP faster for the next Shield Break, while -Def won't give that benefit.)

Interesting side-note, Berserk/Defender and Cocoon stack by addition. Berserk + Cocoon yields +25% Defense and Defender + Cocoon yields +75% Defense.

[IfritnoItazura]

(Remember, a RDM's 40 MP used in refresh translates to 160mp for another job, if you have it spare, refresh a job on a lower priority of the scale, like your DRK.)
Minor correction: Refresh (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Refresh) gives the target 150 MP, not 160 MP.

[Vyuru]

Do Dia and Acid Bolts stack? What about Armor break? I'm confused about stacking def-down abilities, assuming you can.

Like Armando said, think of it as how the games interprets the effect's symbol.

Def down effects cover: Armor Break, SS+Jump, Full Break, Acid Bolts, and Frightful Roar. You can only have one of these on at any one time, I don't know the overwrite order.

Dia is it's own seperate symbol, Dia II overwrites Dia

Blm elemental enfeebles have their own symbols, opposing elements cancel/overwrite each other. So like you can stack Burn, Choke, and Shock together. Choke is wind based and overwrites Rasp, earth based, and Frost, ice based, overwrites Choke.

And you can stack two Dark Knight Absorbs on a target as I recall.

So to my knowledge, all the vit/def debuffs that you can have on a target at any one time are:

Acid Bolts
Dia II
Choke
Absorb-VIT


Get those all on a mob and rip them apart, I really love having a Thief and a Dark Knight in my parties :) Good skillchain partners for a Dragoon and the mages can cover the Dia/Choke aspects of it.

[Armando]

The Stat-Down series (VIT-Down, STR-Down, etc.) stacks with the BLM DoTs, too, for whatever it's worth. I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time (I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time fightning worms.) So you can throw in some VIT-Down from Wild Oats on the mob as well.

As for overwrite order, I tried to find a pattern for Armor Break and Acid Bolts in Brenner but I couldn't find anything at the time. I'd apply one first, sometimes the other would overwrite, sometimes it wouldn't. The same thing would happen inverting the order. I don't know about Frightful Roar, and I've never had Full Break. No clue on SS Jump either (thanks for reminding me of that.)

[VZX]

I prefer to do refueling for myself rather than telling the RDM to haste me everytime the buff wears off.

[Murphie]

I prefer to do refueling for myself rather than telling the RDM to haste me everytime the buff wears off.Any RDM or WHM that is even halfway capable should know when your Haste wears off. The same with any other buff we give you.

[VZX]

weird, I rarely found those

[Hyrist]

About Stackable Debuffs.

Each section of a major stat aspect have 3 factors to consider.

First and most easily altered is the Resulting status. In this case attack, defense, accuracy, and evasion. (There are variants of these on the magical spectrum as well.)

Most monster attacks work to reduce these primary factors. As far as players go, various jobs have skills spells, or status items that will directly influence these factors. (For example, Shield Break, Dodge, Acid Bolts, etc.) Spells of direct opposite nature tend to over-write depending on last order used. For example, Cocoon will overwrite Frightful Roar's defense down, and can be overwritten by any Defense Down attack. Noted, effects like Defender and Berserk are unique effects and do not function in the same manner.

The secondary factor directly deals with the modification stats. These are the base stats of any creature, STR, MND, etc, and can also be directly influenced through a different line of abilities. However, it is noted that not many job classes can raise their base stats through an ability. (( Noted spells an abilities is Hasso, Lunar Roar, and the Absorb line.))

The third and final section is the "element enfeeble" status effects. This is Shock, Rasp, Choke, Frost, Burn, Drown, Dia, and Bio respectively. These are generally magical in nature and effect the status that their element is dominant over, for example Choke, which is wind based, will lower Vitality, which is Earth based.

The thing to be noted on these kinds of enfeebles is that they overwrite and prevent each other if the spells conflict. For example Shock will Overwrite and prevent Drown form being recast, unless it is overwritten by Rasp. This groups spells into their light/darkness in manners of being stackable.

For example, the light based debuffs. Shock, Choke, and Burn, can all be stacked together, as can drown, frost, and rasp, which are the darkness end of the elemental spectrum.

Dia and Bio work in paclular way. Bio will overwrite and prevent Dia of the same Tier, and be overwritten by Dia of a higher tier. A good way to display this is as follows:

Dia < Bio < Dia II < Bio II < Dia III < Bio III

It should be noted that there are no elemental debuff enfeebles for accuracy or evasion that deals DoT.


Stacking these buffs and debuffs can be the key to shifting the tide of a battle.

For example, grouping Defense Down with Dia effect, Vit Down, and Choke, will severely hamper a monster's defensive capabilities. While casting Attack Down, Bio, Drown, and Str Down can incredibly hamper a monster's total damage, which is extremely good for endurance battles with a Paladin tank.

Knowing which debuffs (and buffs) your party can inflict and how they relate can be extremely useful in many situations. I'd recommend going to the FFXI Wiki site to explore what abilities inflict what status effect if you are interested.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Main_Page

[IfritnoItazura]

Hyrist, your classification system seems a little iffy to me. I'll just raise two points:

1. Gravity is evasion down (and movement speed down). Is there an evasion up move which overrides it, like the Frightful Roar vs. Cocoon scenario?

2. Elemental Ninjutsu and Bard's Threnodies are left out of your schema; those are debuffs as well. (There are funny interactions between those Ninjutsu and COR's Quick Draw, which need to be accounted for, if you mean to cover the entire "debuff stacking" topic.)

[Hyrist]

You are right in one aspect. I was overzelious in grouping certain examples into the first catagory. There is a forth catagory. I was referring to the status effects that directly influence the key stats of a player's or mob's performance during attack.

[However, Gravity CAN be over-written, but not with a direct evasion up aspect. (Simply because the primary debuff of gravity is movement speed.) Flee, directly opposes and overwrites Weighted down. (however it cannot be reversed.) Some of these player abilities do work differently as they have no opposition, I believe I noted that.]

The forth catagory is additional status effects. These add additional aspects to the equation separate from the usual damage calculations. They also come with their own oppositions. For example. While Haste and Slow Oppose, they do not influence Bard equivalents effects.

However, while some of then can influence similar status buffs and damage effects, they are, in fact, not direct modifications in the same sence as the "Attack down/UP" status effects, and therefore can fall in a different place in the final calculations.

For example Protect is a status effect that raises Defence. However, "defense Bonus" such as Cocoon and that provided by Reactor Cool, exist in the same place, in the calculation. Therefore, as Cocoon is more powerful, a Blue Mage can cast Cocoon to overwrite the defense up effect of Rector Cool. If Valor Minuet was cast afterwards it would fall in the line of "Additional Status effects" and fall somewhere else in the category, alone with protect.

A simple way to think of this aspect is that effects that share the same name conflict. Such as Ninja's Jakbu and the white magic Paralyze. They both inflict the "Paralyzed" status effect, and therefore, conflict. (I believe it goes Ichi < Para I < Ni < Para II, but I am not sure.)

So as far as the additional effects go, you can stack non/conflicting ones for additional effect. Such as Slow and Elergy, Blind and Flash. Paralyze, Terrorize, and Stun. Etc.

On the issue of the elemental wheel, Quick Draw, and Theodys, I have little to no experience in. Theody seems to deal directly with our elemental resistant stats (which serve as our 'magical' type evasion.) However as there is no direct indicator for the effects that the Ninjitsu Wheel and Quick Draw effects, I'm rather stumped on the relations.

[Icemage]

Any RDM or WHM that is even halfway capable should know when your Haste wears off. The same with any other buff we give you.
Truth.

In actuality, although a RDM's MP is more useful than a BLU's in any given Blue Magic point configuration, chances are that a Blue Mage will be able to use their MP offensively in an attack spell much more efficiently than a RDM. It also leaves the BLU a couple more seconds to continue attacking, which is a small perk (since RDMs generally aren't swinging their swords by the time they're casting Haste anyway).

Same goes for a WHM, too, only more so.

As long as the RDM or WHM has the MP to spare, you should always allow them to cast Haste on you as a BLU. Use the MP spent not casting Refueling to cast something more interesting that puts some hurt on the monsters instead. :)


Icemage

[Armando]

Hyrist's description is dead-on but I think it complicates the matter more than necessary. The best way to approach it is by the names if you ask me.

If two *effects* share the same name, you can have only one. Dia is its own effect so it stacks with Defense Down. Gravity is its own effect so it stacks with Eva Down. Elegy is a different effect than Slow and so they stack. Flash gives Flash status, not Blinded status, so it stacks with Blind or the Ninjutsu version. The Paralyze spell and Jubaku both give the same status of "Paralyze" so they don't stack (that aside, having two Paralyze effects at the same time would be ridiculously broken.) Hojo gives "Slow" rather than "Hojo," so it can't stack with Slow.

On the other hand if the effect has a direct opposite, they can't coexist. Slow vs Haste, Defense Down vs Defense Boost...of course there are some awkward ones like Gravity vs Flee but like Hyrist said the general idea is Movement Speed Down vs Movement Speed Boost; the Eva down is just a side-bonus much like Dia's defense debuff is considered a side-effect (and thus doesn't conflict with Def Down or Def Bonus.) The other series notorious for conflicts is the elemental DoTs, but I think this is the only series that actually causes elemental conflicts. At the very least I know that STAT-Downs and Absorb-STAT don't conflict with each other elementally and you can have as many as you like on the mob, as well as stacking them with compatible Elemental DoTs.

As far as I know, songs don't have opposites so they neither conflict with nor have the ability to overwrite most other things. The main exception would be Lullaby, but the reason for that is obvious. I can't remember how Mazurka and Flee interact but I believe Flee was already the maximum movement speed the game allows either way, so even if they stacked you'd be hitting a cap.

The most troublesome effects tend to be JAs. Some are just plain weird. Boost and Warcry conflict with each other for no apparent reason. Berserk and Defender don't conflict, but actually "merge" and add up their effects (+25% Attack -25% Attack isn't the same as Attack * 1.25 * 0.75) and for some reason also "merge" with Cocoon's Defense Boost. If I remember right from my old MNK days years ago, I think Dodge doesn't count as "Evasion Down" and you could have both up at the same time.

[Hyrist]

Truth.
In actuality, although a RDM's MP is more useful than a BLU's in any given Blue Magic point configuration, chances are that a Blue Mage will be able to use their MP offensively in an attack spell much more efficiently than a RDM. It also leaves the BLU a couple more seconds to continue attacking, which is a small perk (since RDMs generally aren't swinging their swords by the time they're casting Haste anyway).
Same goes for a WHM, too, only more so.
As long as the RDM or WHM has the MP to spare, you should always allow them to cast Haste on you as a BLU. Use the MP spent not casting Refueling to cast something more interesting that puts some hurt on the monsters instead. :)
Icemage

Both your and my argument are situational and really depend on the circumstances to heavily to make an overall call.

For instance I can easily Refueling between fights with a casting timer that's far shorter than a WHM's and debatebly the same as a RDMs. In which case I'd rather the WHM cycle on Regen on me and Haste on another member.

Also, if I'm being refreshed as a BLU, I seriously do not miss the 29 MP spent for Refueling I have that back in 1.5 minutes of Auto Refresh, which I get at 58. This isn't even including sanction, MP drain spells, or other Refresh effects.

However, in a situation which something turns wrong, it's the WHM's and RDM's support that's going to get us through, as I may not have the proper spells equipped to handle the situation if it goes ary. With the Static spell list that RDM and WHM have, they most likely will. In those circumstances, the 40 MP loss 3 times per 10 minutes from them can be sorely felt.


The situation would have to be quite ideal to justify the use of TWICE the MP cost in the course of 10 minutes for a 5% increase. In situations like those, perhaps there is something else you should look at, like the use of Dia III or Paralyze II as opposed to a lower tier. These spells may do more than a mere 5% increase for the MP spent.

Speaking honestly though we're getting into a rather small rutt. Most Burn style parties are RDM, BRD, or BRD, WHM. Red and White don't see each other as often as they used to, and in situations like the above, the haster/healer can use the most MP leeway they can get.

[Vyuru]

I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time (I've had Rasp and VIT-Down at the same time fightning worms.) So you can throw in some VIT-Down from Wild Oats on the mob as well.


So wait, is the Vit Down effect from Wild Oats different from a Dark Knight's Absorb Vit spell?

If so then damn that's sick, if you toss on the four debuffs I mentioned above, Acid Bolts, Dia II, Choke, and Absorb-VIT, then toss on Wild Oats... =o.0=

The four debuffs already are very potent when stacked, not too much of a noticable difference by themselves though, except for maybe the Acid Bolts, I'd be interested in seeing just what all 5 debuffs could do.

[Armando]

Well, all the melees would gain about 7-8 DMG and the mob's Defense would suck ;3

[Kyrial Arthian]

It is sort of a dilemma. On the one hand, the RDM or WHM could be very good about keeping you hasted, and you'd have a more potent haste, and could even free up the 4 spell points that Refueling takes to spend them on something else. But even in this situation, something could go wrong (they happen to forget, or they are busy with healing someone or taking care of a link or whatever) and you'd stuck with no haste. I know that, speaking as a WHM, I'm often good at keeping people hasted at the start of a PT, but as the PT drags on, I get bored and start paying less and less attention to keeping people hasted.

In any case, I don't turn down haste, though I do kinda get annoyed when they haste me like 10 seconds after I just cast Refueling on myself... I don't often get hasted anyway, though. They see that I'm keeping myself hasted and worry about others, which is fine by me. Hell, as a WHM, haste cycles were one of the big things that drove me to quit the job and take up BLU. Ever since ToAU, it began to seem like PTs were only inviting me for 2 things: Haste, and Curaga spells (well, and maybe R3 in case they happened to die >.>), with the priority being on Haste. People who haste themselves would have been a welcome thing to me. :P

[LilithAngel]

I do kinda get annoyed when they haste me like 10 seconds after I just cast Refueling on myself

Heh, you and me both. I often find myself having to explain to a lot of WHMs and RDMs what Refueling is (among other spells); it seems, with even the overabundance of BLU on Kujata, people *still* aren't aware of what BLU can do (e.g. after a party I had last night, I began to walk out of Aydeewa Subterrane because I stupidly forgot a Warp item, when I came across a LS BLM that was out soloing not too far from my camp. Since he was only two levels above me, I invited him to duo with him for a bit before I asked for a D2. During that time, I spammed a few Frenetic Rips, Dimentional Deaths, and Mandibular Bites to help his exp along, and he was shocked at how fast I belted out twice the amount of damage he was in half the time.)

I get even *more* confused looks and questions when I play my COR. :wtf:

[Jei]

Normally, I let BLU refuel themselves. If they ask me to haste them, I'll do. But from a rdm's perspective, BLU not hasting themselves kinda feel just like Rdm not keeping refreshing up : /

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. I still have questions about stacking enfeebs.

Is the effect from Ancient Magic the same "type" as BLM's elemental magic enfeebs (e.g. Burn, Frost, etc.)?
How many Ninjutsu elemental enfeeb can be stacked on one target? Does it work like elemental magic enfeebs? Or just one at a time?

* * *

I'm going to need a "cheat sheet" to keep all this straight. x_x; If I make one, maybe I'll post another "guide" up. (Yep, taking credit for other people's insights is my specialty. :biggrin: )

[Armando]

No, it's not the same as elemental enfeebles. Ancient Magic has the same effect as Ichi/Ni/(San?) Ninjutsu. -30 resistance for 15 seconds. This effect *always* happens, and *never* varies. That means even people subbing /NIN can take advantage of it. It's much like Dia in that respect (the initial damage can get resisted, but its DoT and Defense Down will never change.) I haven't done much testing on it but I believe that if you use a new spell before the previous one's effect runs its course, the new resistance down overwrites the previous.

Threnodies on the other hand give -50 resistance (-55 with a Threnody +1 instrument, -60 with +2) and they have a longer duration. However, the effect CAN be resisted.

An odd thing about the effects of Ancient Magic and Ninjutsu is that they're a statusless debuff. When they hit, you don't receive a debuff icon, and in the case of the mob, you never get a "the mob's Resistance Down effect wears off" message. You'll just have to keep track of the time yourself.

To give you an idea of how powerful -30 resistance is...players have a base amount of elemental resistance equal to the value of a C-ranked skill at any given level. E.g. at level 20 any given player has 58 resistance to all 8 elements. The number shown in the equipment screen is simply an amount relative to your base (i.e. 58 +10, 58 -30, etc.) However, due to the testing method involved there's no way to know if it's C-, C, or C+. I'd assume it's simply C. If you compare melee to magic, each job gets an A- or A+ offensive skill and the default evasion for a close-range melee (except for THFs and the oriental jobs) is C. Elemental resistance is sort of like magic evasion.

Of course, since their duration is so short the ninjutsu is hard to use. The best applications in my opinion are ensuring unresisted skillchain damage or help land key enfeebles during NM/Mission/BC fights. By the way, Skillchains follow the "path of least resistance rule," so debuff the weakest element. Try doing a Fragmentation skillchain on a too weak Thunder Elemental and see how the Thunder Elemental's -90%-ish resistance to lightning damage doesn't affect the skillchain.

[Karinya]

How much good does haste do a BLU anyway? Their normal swings aren't likely to be even 50% of their damage, and reducing their recast timers doesn't help much considering how MP-heavy most of their attack spells are.

15% haste on a DRK can make them do 15% more damage (assuming it's a low enough level that they don't have access to haste gear yet), but I don't see 15% haste on a BLU increasing their *total* damage output by even 10%. And it's basically no help at all to their non-DD functions. So it seems rather silly to spend that much extra MP to go from 10% to 15% haste.

[Hyrist]

Karinya

For BLU Mage, haste means more than just Sword DoT, our ability and spell timers also get reduced by such haste effects, which really helps in the long run.

Also, depending on the job combination and the situation, a BLU may be sword swinging more than he is casting, dispite the obvious balance towards magic casting as a primary source of DD. This is do to may issues, MP management, hate etc. In which case, haste helps the BLU's DoT by a enough to be noticeable.

However 5% can be negatable if the situation calls for it.

[Icemage]

From outside observation, it's not so much the DoT from the sword strikes that's noticeably improved by Haste, but rather the frequency and consistency by which Chain Affinity can be used due to more consistent TP gain. Maybe it's just the BLUs I've partied with, but some seem to struggle to get to 100+TP within the recast timer on Chain Affinity, so in that sense it improves their performance.

I agree it's probably less overall effect than it would be when cast on other DDs, but if the MP's there to spend... why not?


Icemage

[Drive]

Unimportant post coming up:

I normally do not ask for haste. I use refueling more often then not to save the mages mp and shit well I went through hell getting the spell I might as well abuse it.