Cor/brd??

[Kailea]

Ok I know before I left this was a bad idea, but with the new changes to that combo, is it a good idea? What makes me think about it is 2 dice and one song

[CalamityKate]

There are two good uses to cor/brd:

1. in Valkurm Dunes, when your job isn't really defined yet. You aren't shooting, so what are you doing between rolls ?
- You can go cor/whm and backup heal. That's what a lot of people are doing; the problem is that you will have very little MP.
- You can go cor/war and backup tank. Dunes parties lack hate control more than anything else, including healing power; one more Provoke might be more useful than one more /whm. I did just that, because I'm Elvaan, and I have the HP to take hits more than the MP for a whm sub.
- Or, you can go cor/brd and play complete support. Minne, Minuet and Paeon (especially Paeon) can really help your party there and reduce downtime a lot. The half potency of songs isn't too noticeable at those low levels; cor/brd is a serious option, and might be the best one depending on the party setup.

2. when you're pulling in manaburns. 5xblm, 1xcor/brd.
In a manaburn, subbing Ranger is totally pointless: you're not supposed to do damage, you're just supposed to refresh and buff the blms, and pull and Light Shot the mobs for them to kill.
So, of course you can always sub Ninja, it's the safe option, but if you know how to shoot from a distance, you shouldn't need those shadows. What sub can offer a better performance for your job ? Bard ! 1 more MP/tick of Refresh for those blms is nothing to laugh at, especially when your Evoker's Roll is so unreliable. Roll Evoker's, roll Wizard's or Warlock's, and sing Ballad. It can make or break your chain #5, which makes a noticeable difference on experience gained.

Apart from those situations, and maybe other ones that I have overlooked, Bard doesn't really make a good sub for Corsair. With half-level skill and no instruments, you probably won't stick any debuffs, and the potency of your buffs will be halved. You won't be adding that much support compared to your native rolls ; chances are you'll be more beneficial to your party by simply dealing damage, which is half of what a Corsair is for !

Conclusion: situational sub. Good to have. Don't use it by default (the default should always be /rng), but exert your judgment, there might be special settings where /brd competes with other subs.

[LilithAngel]

I'll have to disagree with Kate over the "situational" status of COR/BRD. As soon as I hit 50 COR, I immediately subbed BRD (had been using /NIN up to that point). There was an initial adjustment period to my combat prowess, but as soon as I got over that, I found that my damage output was only reduced due to the amount of buffing I was doing, not because I didn't have a DD sub, while my buffs were more reliable and effective overall. I took COR/BRD all the way to 60, and my DD never suffered to the point where it mattered at all.

COR/BRD is a really strong combo as a support set-up, and yes, it *can* still do a good job DDing on the side. Its focus is support, though, but regardless of half level skill and no instrument, remember this: some buff > no buff. Always.

I completely enjoyed COR/BRD, and would pick that as my sub as much as /NIN or /RNG any day.

(the default should be /nin, /brd, *and* /rng)

Fixed. Have all three.

[Vyuru]

COR/BRD is a really strong combo as a support set-up, and yes, it *can* still do a good job DDing on the side. Its focus is support, though, but regardless of half level skill and no instrument, remember this: some buff > no buff. Always.


Well, not just that, but look at the +att/acc songs (I always forget their names)

With a bard subjob, and using the best +acc or +att song, would that be equivilant to the Hunter's or Chaos Rolls with or without their respective jobs in the party?

I would be very curious to know if you could use other corsair rolls because bard song X was as good, almost as good, or even better than a particular corsair roll.

[LilithAngel]

I've found that using the Acc/Att songs have let me experiment with other rolls without sacrificing too much efficacy as a buffer. I generally tend to enjoy tossing out an Acc song with Fighter's and Rogue's Rolls, and watch the damage fly. :thumbsup:

And not a single party has *ever* complained about my base 2(3*)mp/tick Refresh cycle. Just by that fact alone I had a repeat invite at least twice.

*-Summoner was the main heal a couple of times.

[IfritnoItazura]

With a bard subjob, and using the best +acc or +att song, would that be equivilant to the Hunter's or Chaos Rolls with or without their respective jobs in the party?

I would be very curious to know if you could use other corsair rolls because bard song X was as good, almost as good, or even better than a particular corsair roll.

Attack songs (Minuets) from /BRD gets less impressive as the level goes higher since they depend on singing skills, I think. COR50/BRD25 gets:
Lv.23 Valor Minuet II (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Valor_Minuet_II):
Caps at +32 Attack.
+14 Attack with 105-108 Singing Skill on support job.
+15 Attack with 109-114 Singing Skill on support job.
+16 Attack with 117 Singing Skill on support job.

So, assuming comparing COR50/BRD25 vs. BRD50, then the BRD would have:
Lv.43 Valor Minuet III (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Valor_Minuet_III):
Caps at +48 Attack.
Cornette +1 adds +5 Attack.


Every little bit helps, I guess, but /BRD's best asset is Ballad (and possibly Finale), with the melee buffs being minor perks on the side.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Ok I know before I left this was a bad idea, but with the new changes to that combo, is it a good idea? What makes me think about it is 2 dice and one song

What "new" changes are you referring to? /COR got stealth boosted, otherwise SE made it so you can have two rolls and one song as COR/BRD and two songs and one roll as BRD/COR. The song for COR/BRD would still be less than half the power of BRD main (halved singing skill and no access to instruments)

2. when you're pulling in manaburns. 5xblm, 1xcor/brd.

In a manaburn, subbing Ranger is totally pointless: you're not supposed to do damage, you're just supposed to refresh and buff the blms, and pull and Light Shot the mobs for them to kill.

So, of course you can always sub Ninja, it's the safe option, but if you know how to shoot from a distance, you shouldn't need those shadows. What sub can offer a better performance for your job ? Bard ! 1 more MP/tick of Refresh for those blms is nothing to laugh at, especially when your Evoker's Roll is so unreliable. Roll Evoker's, roll Wizard's or Warlock's, and sing Ballad. It can make or break your chain #5, which makes a noticeable difference on experience gained.

You have quite an active imagination, but this isn't how COR manaburns. COR/NIN all the way here. Even as obscenely accurate and potent as Light Shot is for sleep, Light Shot alone does not make COR cook in manaburn, /NIN is a big part of it.

COR doesn't have the luxury of two sleeps like a BRD, so COR usually is playing decoy and manaburn targets usually consist of BLM mobs. Hence, COR requires the shadows /NIN provides with Utsusemi. It can also be used for light blink tanking when Light Shot is down.

Sure, you can pull from a max safe distance, but that does very little for claim when you're in competitive camp. You have to be fast, aggressive and must be willing take the heat of an AM or Tier IV so your BLMs can get the drop on a mob and keep chains high. You'll need Utsusemi to do that. The only thing you'd ever run from is a -aga spell.

When Light Shot isn't available, COR uses bullets to play Decoy Tank. I have to actually tell my BLMs to not stun Tier IVs and AMs, I'll take those if it means they can kill the mob without distracting it. Its a very solid approach so long as you stay mindful of your shadows

Additionally, you must use Light Shot as a means of gaining a pre-emptive strike or stopping a mob from going after a BLM in the mist of a Tier IV cascade. And more often than not, you're after the next mob when one is already pissed at you and the BLMs are nuking it..

Furthermore, give your BLMs some credit. They don't come unprepared for MP recovery. They keep +hMP gear, they keep vermys or black cloaks, they probably came with Sanction, too.

Evoker's Roll is usually more than sufficient and when you take that chain #3 pause, Healer's Roll is very powerful as well. Most of the time, though, its just Evoker's Roll and Wizard's Roll.

I soooo need to do a manaburn topic, I keep slacking. I can elaborate better elsewhere.

Anyway, /BRD for Ballad here is just overcompensating and worse, wasting valuble time you could be claiming the next mob and push that chain higher.

That aside, I just see /BRD as overcompensating in general, its not a standard sub, its fringe at best. It could be nice for endgame BLM PTs for HNMs and such, but much like /WHM in the core EXP levels, it serves no real purpose and does nothing for COR's DD abilities.

[Spider-Dan]

I think /BRD and /NIN are both good for manaburn. Shadows are nice to have, but not necessary... and, strictly by the numbers, any damage you take via your lack of shadows is more than made up for by the extra MP you're generating via Ballad.

In manaburn, I always roll Evoker's + Corsair's... Wizard's/Warlock's simply don't increase kill speed enough to be worth it. With BLMs, kill speed is not an issue.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think /BRD and /NIN are both good for manaburn. Shadows are nice to have, but not necessary... and, strictly by the numbers, any damage you take via your lack of shadows is more than made up for by the extra MP you're generating via Ballad.

Can't agree.

I can't trust BLM/RDMs to focus on curing people consistantly enough to consider subbing /BRD for one more MP a tick. /BRD isn't going to help me stay competitive on claim, either. Manaburn is no less competitive than TP burns half the time.

By the time you hit the teens in a chain everything is dead anyway and its time to rest up. BLM's equipment + Rolls covers all MP needs. /BRD is just overkill.

Plus, in the event I do die, I can just get up and start pulling again without waiting if I go /NIN.

In manaburn, I always roll Evoker's + Corsair's... Wizard's/Warlock's simply don't increase kill speed enough to be worth it. With BLMs, kill speed is not an issue.

Depends on the BLMs. If they've got AM2s and lots of merits, there's no point to Wizard/Warlock's at all. But if they're new and adapting to high level manaburn, I'm more inclined to get them in the zone with Wizard's/Evoker's before I start tossing Corsair's Roll in there.

I start off with Wizard's to Evoker's, at chain #3 we rest and I roll Healer's Just as we're aiming to start #4 I roll COR roll, they Evoker's again. This should hold out to chain #13 at least.

[Kailea]

ok I see alot of people talking about end game, but lets just say this is for only 37 and below

[IfritnoItazura]

ok I see alot of people talking about end game, but lets just say this is for only 37 and below

Umm.... It's good in Valkrum Dunes for Paeon. Provided that there's no BRD in party who wants to use it, and the healers aren't too dumb to over cure and top off everyone at the end of battle?

The attack/accuracy boost is likely to be minimal, from my experience as DRG/BRD. It was barely worth the effort to use melee buff songs...

When does COR get decent bullets? That's when /RNG will beat up most support jobs, unless the party needs some backup cures from /WHM (bring juice). Or you can go /NIN; the COR in my LS said around Lv.30 there's some r.acc dagger or something for Dual Wield, which puts you about on par with /RNG and provide safety for the "average" puller. (Feeling too lazy to look it up right now.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

ok I see alot of people talking about end game, but lets just say this is for only 37 and below

/BRD will work OK at lower levels because the singing caps aren't so restrictive to your buffing ability, but the loss is felt over time and generally /BRD is just for ballad when you get past 50.

Honestly, I don't see why RDMs or even CORs rave about one more MP a tick. There's so many ways you can grab more MP and with todays update, COR could stand a shot at being the most solid refresher in the game. On top of that, there's just so much more to gain from other subjobs.

Another issue I take with /BRD is the same I take with /NIN - no JAs or Traits I can take advantage of for COR main. Nothing to lend to my abilities and its mostly for the sake of charity. /WHM, at the very least, makes more sense to me in that regard since I'll get MP returns than enable me to help others without become an easier target (Blink/SS).

/BRD may as well paint a bullseye on themselves. But as I said, high level BLMs have it good on MP recovery, so I fail to see the point in /BRD.

When does COR get decent bullets? That's when /RNG will beat up most support jobs, unless the party needs some backup cures from /WHM (bring juice). Or you can go /NIN; the COR in my LS said around Lv.30 there's some r.acc dagger or something for Dual Wield, which puts you about on par with /RNG and provide safety for the "average" puller. (Feeling too lazy to look it up right now.)

The good bullets start at 22, but /RNG's accuracy bonus isn't really felt until archer's knives and noct armor come into play. So you can pretty much sword it to 22 and sword + gun it to 30. After 30, no point in sword melee again til 70.

[wrongfeifong]

out of curiousity how much dmg you even contribute to the party overall?
Have anyone even consider that before? Measure it at least?

Personnally, i still can't look at how much corsair does in dmg compare to the party. Assuming, guns are extremely slow and missing rate higher then a rng would even do. My expectation is not high.

At a TP burning or Mana burning party, would you even have a chance to fire off your guns? (i have yet to try burning party but i heard enough details) Consider, it is competitive and such.

Nothing wrong playing a complete support job, since even the lowest brd buff is comparable to ours without job bonus. It wouldn't hurt to have the buff in. Considering if the party of drk could be benefit having more ACC which allot 1 extra hits, that hits would already cover the dmg lost by /rng or /nin. Not to mention you still have ballad to give out.

I would love to see a log of corsair @ 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75 (don't talk about endgame :P most people here only care about leveling it)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

out of curiousity how much dmg you even contribute to the party overall?
Have anyone even consider that before? Measure it at least?

I don't run a parser, but at my level I can do 400-600 on Barrage with /RNGand 500-800 on Slug shots. At low level you pretty much TP with a gun getting about 14-16 TP per shot, but later COR can equip a Joyeuse and TP fairly quickly, so I can get 100 per fight with little issue.

Plus the majority of mobs fought these days are weak to piercing damage, which is exactly what guns do.

Personnally, i still can't look at how much corsair does in dmg compare to the party. Assuming, guns are extremely slow and missing rate higher then a rng would even do. My expectation is not high.

There is a high delay, yes, but you also get more TP in return for that high delay than you would just by poking a mob with a dagger. we're talking 14-16 TP per hit here. and with /RNG's traits, /RNG latent gear, sushi and all the ranged accuracy you can equip, its not that hard to land a shot on the average mob.

Put simply, a good COR can put up good numbers, they'll get supassed by dedicated damage dealers in the long run, but they'll contribute more to the damage pool than a RDM could ever hope to by melee. Parties don't invite CORs to DD per se, but they'll still expect it from you, with the exception of manaburn and TP burn (sometimes).

At a TP burning or Mana burning party, would you even have a chance to fire off your guns? (i have yet to try burning party but i heard enough details) Consider, it is competitive and such.

Yes and no. If no BRD is in PT, a COR can expect to be asked to pull if no other job is willing to. To be perfectly honest, in that scenario, even with a THF present, a COR should be pulling. At 72+ - the prime TP burn levels - COR gets access to the lowest delay gun in the game, the Peacemaker, making them a very competitive puller. Its also our best gun for Quick Draw accuracy.

And pulling as COR at this level is very similar to how BRD does it. You go /NIN and use Light Shot to sleep mobs during the current fight to stage the next fight. If there are enough DD in PT to quickly kill the mob, a COR's DD is not needed.

But if you do have a BRD, then COR can kick back and mix it up on the frontlines, which is where /RNG is back in the picture kicking ass.

Manaburn is similar, but you're not gonna DD here at all, even with a BRD.

COR is versitile, so it doesn't have to be played one way.

Nothing wrong playing a complete support job, since even the lowest brd buff is comparable to ours without job bonus. It wouldn't hurt to have the buff in. Considering if the party of drk could be benefit having more ACC which allot 1 extra hits, that hits would already cover the dmg lost by /rng or /nin. Not to mention you still have ballad to give out.

Rather than downplay /RNG and /NIN from your lack of experience, you could give them a fair shake, level them and apply them to the main job. /RNG adds signifigant damage to the DD side of the PT, COR doesn't need to sit back and let /BRD Minuets make it up for him because the damage isn't THAT vicarious.

I would love to see a log of corsair @ 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75 (don't talk about endgame :P most people here only care about leveling it)

There are plenty of Corsair forums out there with CORs posting thier parsers, I don't know why you doubt our capability to do damage. I think you just keep fishing for excuses not to level a proper sub. /BRD is more of a fringe endgame subjob. Its hardly the best EXP sub, I'd even rank /WHM and /NIN over it.

/BRD isn't useless, but its not exactly needed, either.

[IfritnoItazura]

out of curiousity how much dmg you even contribute to the party overall?
Have anyone even consider that before? Measure it at least?

Don't get to exp with COR's much, but I do remember being very pleasantly surprised by a COR/NIN during Lv.40's a long while back. No clue what I did with the parses, but he definitely nailed the Phantom Rolls and contributed much to the damage output himself (herself?). (The player had very good gears; everything Blue and White bordered. @_@ )

Put it this way, the COR/WHM in my LS regularly managed to take the mobs away from NIN tanks when using Slugshots after the second provoke. There's little doubt COR is designed to contribute substantially to a party's damage output.

At a TP burning or Mana burning party, would you even have a chance to fire off your guns? (i have yet to try burning party but i heard enough details) Consider, it is competitive and such.
Hmm. What do you expect COR's to pull with? Darts? If they are not pulling, then they would have the time to get in a few shots during the 1 minute cool down time between Phantom Rolls.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

It is ever-so-fun to still be able to pull hate, even as /WHM. Not that I try to intentionally, it just happens.

[IfritnoItazura]

I'd imagine it would be great fun, if done in moderation. (OK, it's probably not "efficient", but there should be room for fun in this game.)

My PLD's damage output is about 1/4th of either of two SAM's in the static party. My RDM's damage output is... negligible at best. Every so often, I do get the damage-envy, and wish I have time to resume my DD jobs.

COR is looking to be the one and only job which and sate the yearning to be useful and sought after (support role job) by everyone, and the lust for big numbers (damage). It surprises me so few people play it...

* * *

Was MB'ing tier II nukes for kicks on my RDM while trying to get a Jelly Ring earlier tonight. Made me wistful; I sorely missed MB'ing Freeze on BLM.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

COR is looking to be the one and only job which and sate the yearning to be useful and sought after (support role job) by everyone, and the lust for big numbers (damage). It surprises me so few people play it...

Its cost-prohibitive to many. I'm not sure why, I'm absolutely terrible with gil in this game, but I get by and have extremely respectable equipment.

I don't complain, though, less endgame competition for me.

[wrongfeifong]

I was really expecting to pull with darts, Guns are extremely slow to pull, in an area with alot monster running around. I would not endanger my self or my group sitting around waiting for the gun to even fire.

[IfritnoItazura]

I was really expecting to pull with darts, Guns are extremely slow to pull, in an area with alot monster running around. I would not endanger my self or my group sitting around waiting for the gun to even fire.
I'm not a COR, but what about:
1. Peacemaker (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Peacemaker): Lv.72 (COR) Dmg:13, Delay:270, AGI+5, Enmity-2
2. Go pull while party is still killing stuff (i.e. BRD style pulling in meripo), then either Light Shot or someone else in party sleep the critter once it's near camp.

[Hantz]

I'm not a COR, but what about:
1. Peacemaker (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Peacemaker): Lv.72 (COR) Dmg:13, Delay:270, AGI+5, Enmity-2
2. Go pull while party is still killing stuff (i.e. BRD style pulling in meripo), then either Light Shot or someone else in party sleep the critter once it's near camp.

That AGI+5 will help your QD stick as well. Pulling/Sleeping is what that particular gun seems designed for IMHO.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I was really expecting to pull with darts, Guns are extremely slow to pull, in an area with alot monster running around. I would not endanger my self or my group sitting around waiting for the gun to even fire.

I pulled most of my RNG career with higher delay weapons than COR uses. High delay weapons are counterproductive to pulling if and only if there's too much camp competition or link potential.

I mentioned the Peacemaker as the lowest delay gun, other folks listed the stats. At high level, it honestly levels the playing field quite considerably. If you're still consistantly beaten to claim while you use this gun, you're either not talented with pulling or you need to resort to a few QD pulls for instant claim. Nasty hate spike when you use elemental QD on pull, though, better to use Light Shot. Peacemaker is our best gun for QD accuracy, I never leave my MH without it.

At low and intermediate levels, competition shouldn't be as fierce as it is at high level, so pulling with 480 or 600 Delay gun shouldn't be a major issue. If it is, again, you're just not talented in pulling.

And Darts.... why? I'll admit I'm making it a point to level my throwing skill, but I'd rather level Marksmanship at the expense of throwing skill than vice versa. How do you hope to learn Slug Shot if you don't use marksmanship?

[wrongfeifong]

why darts ? it is cheaper, but i have already decide to go with cor/brd as i level from (currently 30) to 75.

I asked many people what they want low level and high level, many feel cor/brd would benefit more assuming you are one hard working buffer that willing to give specific buff to the group.

I am talking about SPECIFIC brd buff. such as when you grouping with classes like
PLD, RNG, DRK, BLM, WHM
you would land ballad on pld, blm, whm, ACC on drk, and Rng acc on rng.
Even the buff might be gimpy, it still better and add up to it. I feel losing some DD will benefit everyone is a good effective way.

No hard feeling, i felt people should do cor/brd more to increase number of corsair in the community, most people felt they should NOT play corsair because of the cost of managing alot DD on the job.

[Callisto]

Its cost-prohibitive to many. I'm not sure why, I'm absolutely terrible with gil in this game, but I get by and have extremely respectable equipment.

I don't complain, though, less endgame competition for me.

Same, I have a large hole in my pocket and don't quite have the time to put into farming that I used to. Still, I manage COR/RNG pretty easily. Once a week I go farming in Ifrit's Cauldron for bomb ash, use it to cheaply make 3+ stacks of firesand. From there I just need to come up with 90k for iron ingots, which is pretty much 2 stacks of tree cuttings, or 9 stacks of silk(both easily done with a few hours a week devoted to farming). This gives me enough ammo to last the week.

And as far as the alchemy skill required to make bullets, I've gotten to 51 with little to no expense, easily breaking even on most alchemy bridges, and profiting on others. One of the bridges in the 30's is polyflan paper, and now I have enough paper to last until forever making QD cards. I go up to sky for maybe 20 minutes once a week and sleep > nuke a couple of light eles, kill Gazers in the Necropolis for 1-2 stacks of Mercury(another 30-45 minutes maybe), and voila, with about 5 hours farming tops and 30 mins of crafting, I have ammo for a week and cards for a month.

I'm also pretty lucky that I have my 70+ set pretty much ready to go already, I just have to spend 400k~ and get 2 assault rank ups at lvl 60.

As far as pulling in parties, you really shouldn't have any problem with a normal gun, plus I think the gun gives slightly more range than darts, allowing you to pull from further back and get hit on the way to camp less.

And for sub jobs, if /brd floats your boat go for it. I personally prefer /rng because the rng-style gameplay is more fun to me, and I think my added DD adds just as much to helping the entire pt as a couple of nerfed songs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

why darts ? it is cheaper, but i have already decide to go with cor/brd as i level from (currently 30) to 75.

Its a brilliantly cheap plan until you get to Quick Draw, which requires the use of a gun and will be a permanent part of your arsenal from 40 onward.

QD damage is calculated by Gun and Bullet damage, in addition to standard elemetnal magic rules.

Guess what swapping out darts for the gun does? It makes you lose TP. No weaponskills will come of this approach. QD does not stack with Darts.

I asked many people what they want low level and high level, many feel cor/brd would benefit more assuming you are one hard working buffer that willing to give specific buff to the group.

Who did you ask? I don't know anyone that would reccommend COR/BRD off the top of their head. If anything, such players are the minority. Its a fringe sub mostly used for endgame and RDMs desparate to experience a manaburn.


I am talking about SPECIFIC brd buff. such as when you grouping with classes like
PLD, RNG, DRK, BLM, WHM
you would land ballad on pld, blm, whm, ACC on drk, and Rng acc on rng.
Even the buff might be gimpy, it still better and add up to it. I feel losing some DD will benefit everyone is a good effective way.


As a RDM, BRD and COR I refuse to PT in such MP-heavy setups unless its a manaburn because otherwise I'm reducing a 4 buff cycle from COR or BRD to a 2/3 buff cycle, a /BRD buff isn't really going to make up for the lack of efficency already there. And 5 people to refesh is a headache from the RDM's perspective, /BRD for ballad hardly lightens the load.

You NEVER Prelude a RNG pre-endgame, either, any BRD that does gets a very dirty look from my RNG. RNGs only want Attack buffs from BRD in EXP, buffing them with anything else is only slighting them. Preluding a COR is fine due to the B rating in gun, though.

Hunter's Roll is different, because the Accuracy Bonus there is universal to both forms of melee accuracy and beneficial to the melees in PT.

No hard feeling, i felt people should do cor/brd more to increase number of corsair in the community, most people felt they should NOT play corsair because of the cost of managing alot DD on the job.

Explain how this makes it more appealing, I think it just makes the job seem dull. Were I to look at the pros of COR/BRD vs. BRD/WHM, I'd level BRD instead (well, I already have, but you get the point). Even COR/WHM would be more useful to you long term.

In my opinion, a subjob should not be a charity, it should provide something the main job can benefit from directly in addition to benefitting the PT. Let's look at the subs I use:

/RNG - Accuracy Bonus 1 and 2, Sharpshot, Barrage, Scavange, Camoflauge
Benefits: Best overall accuracy and abilities to add to the damage pool, the ability to find firesand and invis up on occasion. The ability to use /RNG latent gear.

/NIN - Utsusemi for shadows, dual weild to make up loss of accuracy for not using /RNG. Benefits: BRD-style pulling with Light Shot. Good for mission BCs and BCNMs.

/WHM - Evoker's roll refreshes MP, Cures and status cures.
Benefits: Aids allies and restores MP for itself

I plan to add /BLU to my list later, possibly /RDM as well.

The reason I don't favor /BRD is because it only benefits the PT, it doesn't do anything for COR itself, really. The problem is opposite for /BLM, because while it does boost COR's QD damage, it has nothing more to offer its allies.

Subjobs should be a two-way street, both the PT and the player should be able to draw benefit. You can't buff the PT the way you'd like to as BRD and take time to Prelude/Hunter's yourself separately, you'd still have to rotate them out and those songs/buffs would not always be good for a PT.

/BRD is for specialized situations like a mage PT in endgame if mages really have a problem keeping MP up for prolonged fights. I've yet to encounter a mage in my LS that gets so low on MP, however. March or minuet might be nice for melees if no BRD is present. There you can make sacrifices if you they they're worthwhile.

But pickup PTs want what is the most effective, they'll invite a COR for thier buffs with the expectation of also gaining a damage dealer more often than not at EXP levels. At high levels, you'll be expected to pull as well, perhaps at the expense of damage completely. /BRD will just eat up time you could be doing either at the cost of not moving the PT any more quickly.

You might think that just because you're 30 now that your combination is fine and it will get you invites. It may. But I can tell you that if somone is looking for a support slot to be filled in PT, COR will fall behind RDM and RDM will fall behind BRD.

This is why COR needs to be a little more flexible than just one subjob. BRD/WHM won't get fewer invites than BRD/NIN, but RDM/BLM-only might and a COR/WHM-only certainly will.

[wrongfeifong]

The problem with your expectation is everyone who leveling is actually on a 5th-7th main classes. Everyone is rich enough to get 6 million in gear so they don't even want your buff.

I am leveling corsair as my 1st job, and i still see alot people leveling on their first job as well. Giving Prelude would help a ranger without the best gear in the world. Not to mention, our buffing is limited, very limited. Having more buffing power will help the party more.

and how you say:

The reason I don't favor /BRD is because it only benefits the PT, it doesn't do anything for COR itself, really. The problem is opposite for /BLM, because while it does boost COR's QD damage, it has nothing more to offer its allies.

I don't like that type of thinging when we are a party class and you only want it benefit you and yourself. While most of you even think /whm is bad, have you ever consider the fact that 100 MP could give allot transitions fully be done effectively ? Like BRD/whm, cor/whm is just similar.

Of course, i don't blame you, the game lately making partying so easy unlike what it was 4 years ago. Everyone is so rich now-a-day, they could all afford food and super gears.

And I am not talking about endgame here, since endgame is a whole different level. But as a class that trying to reach 75, i believe giving first piority thinking to the party is more then giving to individual benefit. I still have yet to see how much DD does a corsair does, but i could expect fairly 6 out of 10 misses already.

As for pulling, Quick draw is nice to have but i still doubt the fact corsair as puller when any class that could use a Range could also pull. I rather let them pull giving me extra minute to provide 1 more buffs in my order.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The problem with your expectation is everyone who leveling is actually only a 5th classes. Everyone is rich enough to get 6 million in gear so they don't even want your buff.

As I've stated here and elsewhere, I'm terrible at making gil. I had to sacrifice my BRD, RDM and DRG gear to get RNG and COR started and this was back at the height of inflation when ToA was introduced. The HQ Noct set that ran me a million because "zomgCORcanuse/gouge" now is barely a tenth of the cost. Peacock charm I BCNMed for was worth 5 million and now doens't go for more than half that on my server.

Everything is much cheaper now, so I don't see what the difficulty is here other than somone trying to play a job even more cheaply and less effectively. Worse is that they do it with the intention of being cheap and less effective.

I am leveling corsair as my 1st job, and i still see alot people leveling on their first job as well. Giving Prelude would help a ranger without the best gear in the world. Not to mention, our buffing is limited, very limited. Having more buffing power will help the party more.

You can't say what helps the PT more, you don't have /RNG levelled. I have BRD levelled and can tell you as RDM and COR, its very low on my list as a choice for an EXP subjob. For anything I'd want BRD buffs for, I'd rather have it from a full BRD. I have a full BRD if its needed anyway.

COR was the first job I wanted to 75 on this character, I still took RNG to 75 first because I wanted my skills capped out and gear readt. It wasn't that hard. I practically got all my gear through quests, NMs and paid for my ammo with Conquest points and imperial standing.

And even without the best gear, Prelude is still insulting to a RNG. RNG's Accuracy bonuses more than cover their needs.

I am not talking about endgame here, since endgame is a whole different level. But as a class that trying to reach 75, i believe giving first piority thinking to the party is more then giving to individual benefit. I still have yet to see how much DD does a corsair does, but i could expect fairly 6 out of 10 misses already.

You are underestimating /RNG's benefits in a poor attempt to justify your decision.

I'm not strictly talking about endgame here, either, but what you're hoping to level to 75 with is an endgame subjob, which is not always practical or very sensible for EXP PTs. You don't see MNKs with /WHM subs in EXP PTs. You think just because BRD was all buffs that COR can be the exact same, that is not exactly what COR is about. Again, you are invited for buffs, but almost always expected to DD as well.

COR without /RNG in EXP is like a PLD tanking without /WAR in EXP. COR was not given native Accuracy Bonus for a glaringly obvious reason - to make you use subjobs to gain the max benefit for guns.

As for pulling, Quick draw is nice to have but i still doubt the fact corsair as puller when any class that could use a Range could also pull. I rather let them pull giving me extra minute to provide 1 more buffs in my order.

And what are you going to do for the rest of that minute? Doubt the job to death in front of the mob and hope it dies?

I don't get why you're playing this job.

[IfritnoItazura]

The problem with your expectation is everyone who leveling is actually on a 5th-7th main classes. Everyone is rich enough to get 6 million in gear so they don't even want your buff.

I am leveling corsair as my 1st job, and i still see alot people leveling on their first job as well.
Personally, I hate that as an excuse for nothing having decent gears.

It's a player's choice to spend his three hours leveling or farming/crafting/HELM'ing. If he choose to level with outdated gears instead of getting Gil and deferring leveling for a bit, then I have the right to make fun of him.

I don't expect HQ gears except in very limited cases. (Yes, farm for that Beetle Earring +1 and Spike Necklace, please. -_-# They are not that expensive.) Just good enough to do the job well is all I ask.

Giving Prelude would help a ranger without the best gear in the world.
Or, replace a gimpy RNG with a well equipped COR... If there's already a COR, save the spot for a better player. Coming to party with decent gears and the right food is part of being a good player. (You don't need your plumber to look like GQ model with a shiny utility belt buckled around his designer uniform, but he better have all the tools needed to fix your problem, and know how to use them.)

Not to mention, our buffing is limited, very limited. Having more buffing power will help the party more.
I'll let BBQ vivisect you and your statement on this subject. :rofl:

But as a class that trying to reach 75, i believe giving first piority thinking to the party is more then giving to individual benefit. I still have yet to see how much DD does a corsair does, but i could expect fairly 6 out of 10 misses already.
Do you have marksmanship capped? Are you using decent guns and bullets? Do you adjust distance between you and the monster to balance range accuracy and power? Are you using range accuracy/attack food?

What you see in your performance is completely opposite of what I see when a good COR is in the party.

* * *

Anyway, above Lv.30, between weak /BRD buffs and R.Acc+10 or +20 from /RNG's Accuracy Bonus, I'd take the R.Acc. Above Lv.50, Ballad is nice, but not every party needs it. (If you have a BRD or RDM in party already, for example.)

BTW, I have used /BRD on a support job: RDM. However, I only go out on RDM/BRD if the party looks like this:
Tank, melee DD, Mage x3, my RDM/BRD. (This is what I call a 2+4 party, with two frontline jobs, and four backline jobs.)
It happened a handful of times between Lv.50 to Lv.69, at most. Basically, the reduced MP pool means I can cast fewer spells duo to gimped Convert, but Ballad gave more MP to other mages, so they are happy to do more work. Every party I tried that in, people were quite happy with my odd choice.

I would not take that combination to a standard 3+3 party with three melee and three backline jobs, though, much less any 4+2 party. It's also pretty pointless whenever there's a BRD in the party.

If you can hit three mages with Ballad, I'd say COR/BRD is viable. Using /BRD for melee buff is pretty pathetic, though, and doesn't really justify taking the time away from shooting most of the time.


As for pulling, Quick draw is nice to have but i still doubt the fact corsair as puller when any class that could use a Range could also pull. I rather let them pull giving me extra minute to provide 1 more buffs in my order.
Since you don't believe COR's should be DD'ing, I'll just ask this:

Wouldn't it be better for a "real" DD to be hitting the mob and have your "don't want to DD" COR go pull, instead of making the better DD run away from the battle to bring in the next mob? All you have to do is to time things right, and come back before your Phantom Roll timer is up.

You got one minute.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'll let BBQ vivisect you and your statement on this subject. :rofl:

There was so much to dissect that I missed that one. Your priority should usually be to buff based on the jobs there with the intent of benefitting the side of the PT you buff for. It doesn't work so well when you have a DRG, PLD and BLU, cuz their buffs suck, but there's still other options.

If I have a THF and WAR, I buff with Rouge and Fighters roll because those jobs grant a bonus for everyone in AoE of that roll. And if you have those rolls and jobs in PT, you will notice a difference. COR's buffs are nothing to sneeze at and not all of them go bad just because the matching job isn't present.

I'm just amazed that, for somone who wants to take this as his first to 75, Wrongfei totally sells this job short when he's hardly levelled it. If you want to be so snotty toward COR, just go back to BRD. Get your Captain Jack Sparrow fix somewhere else.

[pounce321]

I dont think subbing bard is a bad choice at all. I wouldn't use it as my main subjob choice, but it can be quite useful.

For example, your PT setup is a Lv range of 52s with PLD, BLU, DRG, Mage, Mage, COR. Our favorite rolls are now next to worthless compared to the buff rate of a bard. The % rates on Double Attack and Critical Hits from their rolls are next to nothing w/out those jobs present. Lucky number on Attack/Chaos Roll is only 12% (which will make roughly +30-ish with average gears) when a Bard's Minuet III caps at +48 (w/out instrument?). IMO, at this point i'd rather have a Bard. But you can combine Minuet II with Chaos Roll to make up for the low %. (My singing skill is 83 with merits as Lv52 cor/brd and i come up with +11 attack from Minuet II). I think this is a great way to play around a corsair's rolls when the setup is awkward. And on top of this, you can add 1 MP Tic to the non-lucky Evoker's Rolls, because I know damn well that I don't get V, VIII, X, or XI every roll.

Subbing RNG or NIN are by far a better sub job choice in most cases, but some times you have to work around the PT to do your job as a support job, even if that means lowering your acc on your r.att. You are a support role 1st and a DD 2nd.

Thank you for considering my views.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I dont think subbing bard is a bad choice at all. I wouldn't use it as my main subjob choice, but it can be quite useful.

For example, your PT setup is a Lv range of 52s with PLD, BLU, DRG, Mage, Mage, COR. Our favorite rolls are now next to worthless compared to the buff rate of a bard. The % rates on Double Attack and Critical Hits from their rolls are next to nothing w/out those jobs present. Lucky number on Attack/Chaos Roll is only 12% (which will make roughly +30-ish with average gears) when a Bard's Minuet III caps at +48 (w/out instrument?). IMO, at this point i'd rather have a Bard. But you can combine Minuet II with Chaos Roll to make up for the low %. (My singing skill is 83 with merits as Lv52 cor/brd and i come up with +11 attack from Minuet II). I think this is a great way to play around a corsair's rolls when the setup is awkward. And on top of this, you can add 1 MP Tic to the non-lucky Evoker's Rolls, because I know damn well that I don't get V, VIII, X, or XI every roll.

Subbing RNG or NIN are by far a better sub job choice in most cases, but some times you have to work around the PT to do your job as a support job, even if that means lowering your acc on your r.att. You are a support role 1st and a DD 2nd.

That PT setup is ... ugh. Nothing can save it. I drop from this PT each time I get invited to it because I refuse to comprimise a four buff rotation for an MP-heavy set-up.

Biggest disservice being done here is to the DRG. PLD needs MP, BLU needs MP, Mages need MP, where the hell does that leave the DRG?Getting something he doesn't need - MP.

Even with /BRD or a BRD main in the COR's place, the EXP per hour is going to be a unacceptable slog. I'd leave in a heartbeat, I have, people should know better than to build a PT like that. Its EXPing for the sake of EXPing rather than EXPing efficiently. Its not even about the EXP I could get in a burn, I ditched this setup in the RoZ/CoP days as a BRD.

Its not the jobs per se, its just those jobs gathering as a PT that makes it that bad. Weed out a MP user or two and replace them with DDs, or at least have a RDM to cover the frontline, don't as a COR or BRD to comprimise thier potential for the PLD and BLU's sake.

If the DRG asked a PUP to replace him in this PT, the PUP would lol and turn it down.

[IfritnoItazura]

For example, your PT setup is a Lv range of 52s with PLD, BLU, DRG, Mage, Mage, COR. Our favorite rolls are now next to worthless compared to the buff rate of a bard. The % rates on Double Attack and Critical Hits from their rolls are next to nothing w/out those jobs present. Lucky number on Attack/Chaos Roll is only 12% (which will make roughly +30-ish with average gears) when a Bard's Minuet III caps at +48 (w/out instrument?). IMO, at this point i'd rather have a Bard. But you can combine Minuet II with Chaos Roll to make up for the low %. (My singing skill is 83 with merits as Lv52 cor/brd and i come up with +11 attack from Minuet II). I think this is a great way to play around a corsair's rolls when the setup is awkward. And on top of this, you can add 1 MP Tic to the non-lucky Evoker's Rolls, because I know damn well that I don't get V, VIII, X, or XI every roll.

While another attack+11 is pretty nice compared to Chaos Roll alone w/out DRK, it has to balanced against what /RNG can do for COR's damage output--is the party better off with COR doing more damage or another Attack+12 on PLD, DRG, and maybe BLU?

Ballad is pretty neat, though, and I would definitely go for /BRD in such an MP heavy party myself as RDM/BRD. Which, begs the question; would it be better if one of the mages is using /BRD instead of the COR?

[pounce321]

^^; Sometimes it is not a matter of whether the PT setup is good or terrible. If you have an opportunity to make a bad situation slightly better, then suffer the -R.Acc. To some people, crap exp is better than no exp at all.

[IfritnoItazura]

>_>; Would someone explain to me why that would be such a horrible party?

PLD is a good tank, DRG is naturally a good DD, BLU can be a good DD (if used skillfully), and COR is a solid second tier DD. Depending on which mages, this looks fun in my eyes, especially as a SC+MB party. (I'd want BLM + RDM for backline, but almost any two backline mages would do except WHM x2.)

Pretty good safety, too, since BLU, PLD, and presumably both mages can cure. (If there's a RDM to give PLD Refresh, the PLD wouldn't need Evoker's Roll, and frontline can have two offense rolls while PLD shoulders half or more of the curing himself.)

Maybe I'm just a sucker for not-flavor-of-the-month party setups, but PLD, BLU, DRG, mage x2, and COR together looks like a party with both adequate damage and above-par safety in my eyes... <_<;

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

>_>; Would someone explain to me why that would be such a horrible party?

PLD is a good tank, DRG is naturally a good DD, BLU can be a good DD (if used skillfully), and COR is a solid second tier DD. Depending on which mages, this looks fun in my eyes, especially as a SC+MB party. (I'd want BLM + RDM for backline, but almost any two backline mages would do except WHM x2.)

Pretty good safety, too, since BLU, PLD, and presumably both mages can cure. (If there's a RDM to give PLD Refresh, the PLD wouldn't need Evoker's Roll, and frontline can have two offense rolls while PLD shoulders half or more of the curing himself.)

Maybe I'm just a sucker for not-flavor-of-the-month party setups, but PLD, BLU, DRG, mage x2, and COR together looks like a party with both adequate damage and above-par safety in my eyes... <_<;

Well the subject is COR/BRD, is it not? The point of a subjob is to main job to benefit the sub and the sub to benefit the main. Here we have a subjob compensating for a poorly balanced PT because there is no RDM. COR/BRD is a charity that gets no returns. No benfits for melee/gunplay, no manapool to get MP on Evoker's Roll.

You're not sacrificing melee abilities to make a PT better, but slightly more tolerable.

And again, its not the jobs, is the combination. Even you're conceding the need of a RDM here, if that's one of the mages then that's not so bad. But if you had a RDM, then there's no reason to be sub /BRD to compensate for the need of refresh on the BLU and PLD.

And while you'd still have to work with non-bonus rolls, subbing /RNG would add to the damage that you're missing more than Minuet II would. If a RDM isn't in this setup, I go home. Simple as that. I've done this kind of setup over and over again and its more of a headache than worthwhile EXP.

[IfritnoItazura]

Well the subject is COR/BRD, is it not? The point of a subjob is to main job to benefit the sub and the sub to benefit the main. Here we have a subjob compensating for a poorly balanced PT because there is no RDM. COR/BRD is a charity that gets no returns.

Hmm. The point of your (or my, or anyones) main job is to benefit the party. Which support job you use is subordinate to that purpose, ultimately--pick the one which best help you to help the party.

Whether that means going /RNG to increase damage output, /NIN for safer trip back to camp for not-so-great pullers, /WHM for party lacking backup healer, or /BRD for MP heavy party, it all comes down to helping the party get experience points. As long as the support job you pick for the day does that well, it benefits your main job.

Saying COR/BRD is usually not optimal is one thing; calling it never good seems somewhat narrow minded. Insulting it? Well, you'd also insult players who decided upon COR/BRD after careful consideration, especially people like pounce321 who have reviewed the game mechanisms involved in detail.

p.s. The party still looks balanced to me (depending on the backline mages), though not exactly where a COR would shine above BRD. Not ultra optimal doesn't mean broken, though, and bad players can more easily ruin exp/hour and fun than any "imperfect" setup.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Hmm. The point of your (or my, or anyones) main job is to benefit the party. Which support job you use is subordinate to that purpose, ultimately--pick the one which best help you to help the party.

Whether that means going /RNG to increase damage output, /NIN for safer trip back to camp for not-so-great pullers, /WHM for party lacking backup healer, or /BRD for MP heavy party, it all comes down to helping the party get experience points. As long as the support job you pick for the day does that well, it benefits your main job.

Saying COR/BRD is usually not optimal is one thing; calling it never good seems somewhat narrow minded. Insulting it? Well, you'd also insult players who decided upon COR/BRD after careful consideration, especially people like pounce321 who have reviewed the game mechanisms involved in detail.

p.s. The party still looks balanced to me (depending on the backline mages), though not exactly where a COR would shine above BRD. Not ultra optimal doesn't mean broken, though, and bad players can more easily ruin exp/hour and fun than any "imperfect" setup.

:rolleyes:

How, oh, how many times have we discussed it?

What's the role of BRD and COR in a PT? To enhance, to augment thier abilities.
What's the role of a RDM in a PT - To survive, to give them endurance.

Thing is, RDM can compensate in ways BRD and COR just can't and still offer a party endurance. COR can't sub BRD can give a PT endurance, because that's not what BRD was made to do. Same thing for BRD/COR.

The PT setup is a poor one, again, even you concede a RDM is needed here to be a better PT. A RDM is all I'd want from that PT or I'd leave it.

Chaos+Minuet II sounds nice on paper, but think about in play. Phantom Roll > Song > Song would be the main function. That's 30-40 seconds of buffing per minute every other minute. Now lets contrast this to COR/RNG giving one buff a minute and melee/bullet damage.

I think COR/RNG is going to offer more to a PT, if you think Chaos+Minuet II would make up for the absense of the COR's DD, you underestimate COR/RNG.

If you like COR/BRD in this setup, knock yourself out. Its your time to waste. But its still a poorly-built PT and anyone with a shred of sense would leave it were there no RDM there already.

As far as insulting goes, my only insult is for the person who uses /BRD as a means to get out of /RNG and /NIN and tries to save gil. People who do this waste time with COR and should have just levelled BRD as a main in the first place, because they're not serious about being a COR. If you don't want to spend gil, don't level RNG, COR or NIN.

As I've said before, and apparently some seem to have already forgotten, /BRD has a place, its just not very effective in EXP PTs in contrast to what's been proven by /RNG, /NIN and /WHM. /BRD is a fringe endgame sub with possible (though not terribly practical) manaburn applications. I'd put /RDM and /BLU heads and shoulders above /BRD and /BLM as far as the fringe subjobs go, too.

If you want to piss away your time in an MP-heavy PT and go /BRD, knock yourself out. Its your time to waste. If I see 4-5 MP users in a PT, it damn well had better be a manaburn.

[Callisto]

I have to agree with OWBK on this one.

The point of the argument I can see is if COR/BRD would do enough good to a party relative to a COR/RNG, /NIN, or /WHM. There's 2 ways a COR is going to help the party(3 if you count looking cool in a pirate getup, even xp pts need aesthetic appeal :P): Buffs and DD. Yes, not having a DRK in the party would kill Chaos a bit, and having Minuet would make up for that, and the additional 1/tick from ballad can make a big difference to the mages(200mp in 10 minutes is nothing to scoff at). However, using both rolls and songs in a party, the COR would be able to fire maybe 2 bullets a fight, and the racc you'd lose from being /RNG for Accuracy Bonus/Sharpshot, or /NIN for dual archer's/trailer's means you'd be likely to miss an IT mob. Compare that to a /RNG, who is going to give a modest boost from Chaos to the DDs, and then plug away shots for decent damage, and fire off 500+ Slug Shots. Do you really think the boost from Min 2 will make up for losing that?

As far as the Ballad end goes, consider that if you are using evoker's you're 40+. This means SMNs and PLDs will have 1/tick already. If you're 54+ you're most likely xping in ToAU zones, where if your mage/pld is not functionally broken, they will have Refresh sanction on. Even a crap Evoker's makes 2/tick for a WHM or BLM, 3/tick for the PLD or SMN. If your 2 mage/1 PLD setup can't survive w/ a minimum 2/tick for the 2 mages and 3/tick for the PLD/SMN, then they don't know how to manage their MP for beans anyways, and your party is most likely not going to be very good as is. Giving up the above average DD of a /RNG, the pulls without taking damage of a /NIN, or the utility of a /WHM is not worth giving another 1/tick of mp to mages who cannot use their MP efficiently. Not trying to sound like an elitist, but at lvl 50+ you should know how to do this already.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

As far as the Ballad end goes, consider that if you are using evoker's you're 40+. This means SMNs and PLDs will have 1/tick already. If you're 54+ you're most likely xping in ToAU zones, where if your mage/pld is not functionally broken, they will have Refresh sanction on. Even a crap Evoker's makes 2/tick for a WHM or BLM, 3/tick for the PLD or SMN. If your 2 mage/1 PLD setup can't survive w/ a minimum 2/tick for the 2 mages and 3/tick for the PLD/SMN, then they don't know how to manage their MP for beans anyways, and your party is most likely not going to be very good as is. Giving up the above average DD of a /RNG, the pulls without taking damage of a /NIN, or the utility of a /WHM is not worth giving another 1/tick of mp to mages who cannot use their MP efficiently. Not trying to sound like an elitist, but at lvl 50+ you should know how to do this already.

This more or less goes back to what I said about BLMs in manaburn. /BRD is over kill there and if you're assuming they need more MP from Ballad, you're underestimating their ability and thier ability to be prepared, mage jobs pretty much are always prepared to regain more MP.

I'd hope that a PLD or Mage would have Vermillion, Parade Gorget or Sanction going on top of jobs with Auto Refresh kicking in at 50+ or much sooner, yet I've found many times the BLU and PLD would forego Refresh Sanction buff for ... the food buff. That BLU won't have a vermy at all, PLD didn't quest the parade gorget, etc, etc.

Its pretty clear to me that most PLD, BLU and DRKa wish to pass the buck to RDM, BRD and COR for things they can be doing, which makes working with them a chore because you now have to pick up for the things they should have been doing. This shouldn't be the case at all. So, this is why COR and BRD in particular want a RDM in PT with them in such a situation. You get a healer and somone that can refresh the frontline so you don't have to limit your buff/roll potential to make up for things those frontliners lack.

Now, if your PLD, BLU and mages have all these buffs and nifty toys and STILL need COR to go /BRD, there's just a serious problem in how the people are playing. COR shouldn't be needed on the frontline for Evoker's or Ballad at that point and, as such, there's no reason not to go /RNG for DD or /NIN to pull.

450-800 damage per slug shot is hardly anything to call "second-tier," either. Its not RNG damage, sure, I can surpass my COR easily on RNG, but that's still a nice chunk of mob HP.

[IfritnoItazura]

What's the role of BRD and COR in a PT? To enhance, to augment thier abilities.
What's the role of a RDM in a PT - To survive, to give them endurance.
You tend to carry your own good ideas too far; while those two points do highlight the difference between RDM and COR or BRD in some sense, they also exaggerate it. Don't tell me Ballad I + II, Healer's (or Evoker's and Healer's Rolls) do not add to a healer's endurance, or that a RDM's Haste and Dia do not enhance the performance of melee DD's.

The PT setup is a poor one, again, even you concede a RDM is needed here to be a better PT. A RDM is all I'd want from that PT or I'd leave it.
You're accusing me of something, but I don't really understand what. The party member list included the unspecified "... mage, mage ...", and what I said to that is I'd like RDM in one of those slot, but almost any two mages except WHM x2 would do.

Chaos+Minuet II sounds nice on paper, but think about in play. Phantom Roll > Song > Song would be the main function. That's 30-40 seconds of buffing per minute every other minute. Now lets contrast this to COR/RNG giving one buff a minute and melee/bullet damage.

A COR have to use the Rolls and Double-Ups anyway, so you cannot count the time those take up against COR/BRD. Also, some of those songs singing can be done between fights. The two songs are 8 seconds each, for a total of 16 additional seconds every two minutes, and not all of it during "fight time". Yes, it's detrimental to the COR's DD output, but not exactly a gigantic reduction, esp. before Slugshot--this is a Lv.52 party we are talking about here.

I think COR/RNG is going to offer more to a PT, if you think Chaos+Minuet II would make up for the absense of the COR's DD, you underestimate COR/RNG.
And, what about Ballad for the BLM(s)? Wouldn't that add to their ability to output damage, if one or both of the mages are BLM? I'd think the BLU could use the extra MP for DD, too.

We can both argue until we're blue in the face, but this theoretical debate won't produce a clear winner between COR/RNG and COR/BRD for such an MP heavy party.

If you want to piss away your time in an MP-heavy PT and go /BRD, knock yourself out. Its your time to waste. If I see 4-5 MP users in a PT, it damn well had better be a manaburn.
So, "MP-Heavy" is the reason why it's bad? lol. Wish you'd just say that in the first place.

I don't agree MP heavy is necessarily bad, and I still see plenty of damage potential in this particular party, even without RDM--and, with a COR/BRD. SC+MB party is not all that bad at Lv.52, and quite fun, too. Hopefully, we can just agree to disagree on the "MP heavy = bad" idea.

If done without a RDM, the main problem I see is that it'd be a pain in the rear to setup PLD, BLU and mages so they all get Evoker's Roll while leaving the DRG out of it.. Of course, that means they'd also line up right for Ballad, making /BRD even more effective.

That is, unless one of the mages is already on /BRD.

I'd hope that a PLD or Mage would have Vermillion, Parade Gorget or Sanction going on top of jobs with Auto Refresh kicking in at 50+ or much sooner, yet I've found many times the BLU and PLD would forego Refresh Sanction buff for ... the food buff.
Your server must be very different than mine, to expect PLD's and all things mage would have Vermillion Cloak (1.5mil on Ifrit), yet forgo Sanction Refresh. (I've never even met one PLD not on Sanction Refresh in ToAU area.) :P

most PLD, BLU and DRKa wish to pass the buck to RDM, BRD and COR for things they can be doing, which makes working with them a chore because you now have to pick up for the things they should have been doing.
Or, if there's a "refresher", they can free up the equipment slot for better defense gear like Shield Torque instead of Parade Gorget as a PLD, or Optical Hat instead of Vermillion Cloak as a BLU. The flip side of your complaint is that those jobs can perform their role better if the refreshers take care of refresh for them, as much trouble as it may be for your RDM, BRD, and COR.

450-800 damage per slug shot is hardly anything to call "second-tier," either. Its not RNG damage, sure
You just said it's a level from RNG's damage output; that makes it second tier.

Also, a good COR would also run back and forth between frontline and the backline for rolls, as well as spending times on rolls and double up's, during which time it's not DDing, which further limiting DoT output and TP gain. A COR played right is often a worse DD than a COR played wrong--the good one is often busy keeping the buffs up instead of being absorbed in some self-indulging, narcissistic shooting session for the entire fight.

Besides, if we're still talking about that Lv.52 setup, there would be no Slugshot involved at all.

[Kailea]

since I started this thread I have tested /NIN/RNG/BRD while leveling COR

at level 30 with all the noct gear and sushi and others I do just about the same damage as COR/BRD COR/NIN and COR/BRD

COR/NIN gives me shadows for pulling and an extra 10+R.ACC (dagger)
COR/RNG, does nothing but Sharpshot, and honestly is not really needed with the gear I have
COR/BRD is a nice choice for me.....
what do I do as COR? support what do I do as BRD? support, sooo what do I do as COR?BRD??? Support, and that is what COR was made for anyway, suport.

Not trying to say BRD should be the only sub for COR, but its not a "bad choice" like many think.

[Callisto]

since I started this thread I have tested /NIN/RNG/BRD while leveling COR

COR/RNG, does nothing but Sharpshot, and honestly is not really needed with the gear I have


/RNG also gives Acc. Bonus trait, which is about as big of a difference as the 2nd archer's from /NIN, and /RNG will give you a higher base AGI rating than /BRD, which at 30 isn't as important, but once you hit 40 it will be. Also, once you hit 40-50, mobs start having higher def/eva, the disparity in your racc will start to stand out more and more.

Also taken into account is the level 30 subjob-specific gear. Gun Belt is a huge boost at mid levels, before the disparity between A and B ranking grows increasingly larger, and the /RNG earring doesn't hurt either w/ +3 racc. The /NIN earring gives +4 AGI, which is the highest AGI boost you can get in the ear slot, important once QD comes into play. /WHM earring gives emnity-1(this may not sound like an issue, but when you start using slug shot, expecially if you have an emnity merit like I do, not dying in an xp party b/c you stole hate isn't a given anymore), in addition to the utility spells.

I'm not going to go out and say /BRD is terrible, and it does have its applications, but I really do believe that compared to your other options you'd be limiting the capabilities of your COR, both in support and DD roles.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You tend to carry your own good ideas too far; while those two points do highlight the difference between RDM and COR or BRD in some sense, they also exaggerate it. Don't tell me Ballad I + II, Healer's (or Evoker's and Healer's Rolls) do not add to a healer's endurance, or that a RDM's Haste and Dia do not enhance the performance of melee DD's.

There's a difference between enhancing abilities and not giving your own party members credit, which is overcompensating. I won't tell you that Dia won't enhance the performance of melees, but i've had a fair share of RDM ignorantly state that Acid Bolts don't do as much as Dia when they drop mob DEF by 12%. Considering Dia STACKS with the Acid Bolts or Angon, I'd have to humbly disagree.

You're accusing me of something, but I don't really understand what. The party member list included the unspecified "... mage, mage ...", and what I said to that is I'd like RDM in one of those slot, but almost any two mages except WHM x2 would do.

I'm "accusing" you of agreeing with me, apparently. You concede that a RDM would be best in one of those mage slots. I would just leave the PT were there not a RDM present at all. Maybe you want to stick with a subpar EXP PT out of sympathy for the guy that made it, but not all of us want to and maybe that's your whole problem with my stance. I'm not as nice as you are.

Someone was trying to make a point for COR/BRD in that scenario where there isn't a RDM as a passable substitute. If by "passible" you mean "crap" then I'll agree with you. COR/BRD at that point is COR trying to make up for something a party doesn't have and there aren't jobs that can really do that save for RDM.

A RDM can make up for the abscence of a WHM and, to a degree, a BLM as well, but COR and BRD cannot make up for the lack of RDM where its needed and PLDs prefer RDM for very a very specific reason - single target refresh.

A COR have to use the Rolls and Double-Ups anyway, so you cannot count the time those take up against COR/BRD. Also, some of those songs singing can be done between fights. The two songs are 8 seconds each, for a total of 16 additional seconds every two minutes, and not all of it during "fight time". Yes, it's detrimental to the COR's DD output, but not exactly a gigantic reduction, esp. before Slugshot--this is a Lv.52 party we are talking about here.

Um... try shooting a gun and you'll see why /WHM and /BRD are problematic in EXP for COR.

There's a reason RNGs are percieved as "slow" in today's TP Burn world. No amount of Haste will change the delay of a ranged attack. 480 and 600+ Delay are a considerable amount of time to shoot and long casting times don't help. BRD is the slowest support caster in the game. 8 seconds per song is a huge amount of time.

Also, in the proposed PT setup, COR would clearly be the puller, as no one else has ranged, two frontliners require resting for MP and DRGs pulling just never happens unless the DRG is a complete idiot. The COR would pull, there would be no songs in between fights. That is, unless, you're looking for a total anti-chain PT here.

And, what about Ballad for the BLM(s)? Wouldn't that add to their ability to output damage, if one or both of the mages are BLM? I'd think the BLU could use the extra MP for DD, too.

Well since you want to be so picky about the level, BLM would have access to Dark Staff, possibly Sanction Refresh and the standard ginget/wizard cookies. This on top of the Seer's set they should still be carrying around and the fact that EVERYONE can make Orange Juice with no skill in cooking.

If we're talking Signet zones, PLD and BLU have no excuses not to rest for MP and if we're talking Sanction zones, there's Sanction Refresh - MP recovery is of paramount concern to those jobs. BLU and PLD would both have access to Dark Staff. BLU would have access to Clear Mind II at this level, too. BLM would have Clear Mind III. Oh and they could make juice, too.

Now, I haven't gotten to Refresh, Ballad and Evoker's Roll yet. It should be pretty obvious why I haven't. This level of MP recovery can be acheived on one's own. God only knows why people won't bring juice materials when that refresh stacks with Evoker's and Ballad. Hmmm.

This is what I mean when I say COR/BRD is compensating for things thing PT lacks. Not only are the compensating for the lack of the RDM here, they're also (usually) compensating for a lack of preparation on the part of the party, which just isn't acceptable to me.

I don't agree MP heavy is necessarily bad, and I still see plenty of damage potential in this particular party, even without RDM--and, with a COR/BRD. SC+MB party is not all that bad at Lv.52, and quite fun, too. Hopefully, we can just agree to disagree on the "MP heavy = bad" idea.

You've levelled RDM and you don't see why an MP-Heavy setup is bad?

...

Just level BRD or COR and you will see why this setup is generally a pain in the ass, you're going to want to give that DRG Minuet and HAHAHAAHHAHAHAA, the BLU or DRK will never let it happen thanks to their goddamn /THF sub. The PLD will ALWAYS move away from the mages because zomgImustprotecttehmagez!!!! They'll do it whether the mob is cone AoE or not.

Going from a four buff rotation to two/three to make sure everyone get some MP is misery to those jobs. We're there to make a PT more effective, not slightly better. Here you've taken away a signifigant amount of time the COR could DD and a PT setup that is largely anti-BRD or anti-COR to start with.

Or, if there's a "refresher", they can free up the equipment slot for better defense gear like Shield Torque instead of Parade Gorget as a PLD, or Optical Hat instead of Vermillion Cloak as a BLU. The flip side of your complaint is that those jobs can perform their role better if the refreshers take care of refresh for them, as much trouble as it may be for your RDM, BRD, and COR.

What happened to your "this is a level 52 PT" shtick?

I don't refresh BLU or PLD at 75, ever, that's what RDM is for. That's what Sanction, vermy and a parade Gorget are for. That's what Auto-Refresh is for. lolShield Gorget.

With the exception of perhaps a PLD in Nyzul Thickets, assuming he's not going to move far from the RDM or WHM. He shouldn't unless there's some deadly new colibri AoE I don't know about.


You just said it's a level from RNG's damage output; that makes it second tier.

I guess you're say a lot of level 75 WARs and MNKs are "second tier" then. Because my slugs to more damage than the average Rampage of Asuran Fists in merits.

A COR played right is often a worse DD than a COR played wrong--the good one is often busy keeping the buffs up instead of being absorbed in some self-indulging, narcissistic shooting session for the entire fight.

Where did you get this bullshit? You only buff once a minute. thats 45-50 seconds of DD left.

The good COR is going to know what his best values are on each buff, the bad COR wouldn't and would just worry about lucky, 6 and unlucky and then poke the mob with a knife. If anything, knowledge of your buff values would enable the good COR more time to perform their role, not less.

I've alway been able to pull, buff and DD with little problem as to keeping on buffs and I seldom spend lots of time buffing.

A COR played right is knowledgable about his abilities and will use them to benefit the PT and the PT's damage pool, not just one or the other.

Besides, if we're still talking about that Lv.52 setup, there would be no Slugshot involved at all.

Well, your 52 PT had the Shield Gorget and Optical Hat, you tell me.

[Callisto]

Also, a good COR would also run back and forth between frontline and the backline for rolls, as well as spending times on rolls and double up's, during which time it's not DDing, which further limiting DoT output and TP gain. A COR played right is often a worse DD than a COR played wrong--the good one is often busy keeping the buffs up instead of being absorbed in some self-indulging, narcissistic shooting session for the entire fight.

I'm afraid I'd have to call some shenannies on this one as well. A 'good COR' knows how much time they have until their next roll, and they squeeze out the max amount of DD in the 40-50 seconds they can, firing off QD as needed, then run into position for the next roll, fire it off to the best # they can manage, and then go back to shooting until they are ready to roll again. I consider myself a 'good COR'. Am I constantly shooting? Yes, pretty much. But, I know what my PR recast timer is within 2 seconds at all times. My party member are never without rolls that they need, and I'm still hitting the mob for 70-90 per shot and firing off 100+ Splits(if we're sticking w/ the 52 assumption) which is comparable DD to the WAR hitting for 30-40 per axe swing with 200~ Ragings.

Is COR a '2nd-tier DD)? In terms of total DoT, probably, but not because of the output per hit, it's because they have other stuff to do other than volley bullets. But can a COR/RNG hit harder than a WAR or MNK? Yeah, probably.

Well, your 52 PT had the Shield Gorget and Optical Hat, you tell me.

And sorry, but they got you there.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Here's COR in a minute assuming i'm COR/RNG:

Phantom Roll
Move into melee range
Fire off a few shots.
Quick Draw to whatever corresponding ailment was cast. (210 damage average)
Sharpshot/Barrage.
Slug Shot (450-800)
Barrage used (450-500 damage)

So one QD, WS and Barrage alone, I've put in nearly 1.5k of damage into that fight. Could the minuet II on all the other melees make up for that? Even if it was Split Shot, I think I'd be edging out the cumalative returns of a Minuet II. And in that fight, I could put up another slug time permitting.

When I use Random Deal or Wild Card, what BRD subjob abilities am I resetting here?

None. BRD has none. I'd at least have a chance of resetting Sharpshot, Barrage, and Divine Seal from other subs. /BRD and /NIN offer nothing to that end.

[IfritnoItazura]

Geez, judging by the reactions I'm getting, you'd think I'm insulting COR's or something. Honestly, it's a terrific job in my opinion, and has more flexibly than I initially gave it credit for.

For the record, I don't think COR/BRD is the most helpful combinations in most setups, but it seems to have a place in MP heavy exp parties without BRD or other /BRD--but, those are pretty rare.

Also for the record, this is mostly a theoretical discussion, not worth getting too heated over. Of course, it would be less theoretical and more practical if we have some more first hand reports on COR/BRD (like the one from Kailea) and measurements of COR/BRD vs. COR/RNG performances.

* * *
Here's COR in a minute assuming i'm COR/RNG:
Just a thought, but since RNG job abilities are on 5 minute timers, you should analyze the damage output over a 5 minute period rather than a "best I can do in a minute" kind of breakdown. (The point that COR/RNG is a much better DD than COR/BRD is valid, of course.)

Can you really TP enough to get a Slugshot every fight at meripo levels, BTW? (I'm just curious... )

* * *

Um... try shooting a gun and you'll see why /WHM and /BRD are problematic in EXP for COR.
From discussion I have with the COR in my LS, it seems like pulling was more problematic for him than /WHM. I attribute his trouble to lack of pulling experience, though.

This is what I mean when I say COR/BRD is compensating for things thing PT lacks. Not only are the compensating for the lack of the RDM here, [...]
I'm flattered you find RDM indispensable, but we're not always available, and off-peak parties often have to make do--and can make do--with RDM-less setups. Even with MP heavy parties. :P

You've levelled RDM and you don't see why an MP-Heavy setup is bad?
One of the most fun PUG party I've had on RDM was with something like: PLD, BLU (I think), DRK, BLM, WHM, and RDM(myself)--a 6/6 MP party. I was on RDM/BRD, and had a blast. Lighter workload, too; WHM and PLD took care of all healing, WHM took care of all Haste (well, except me; I cast Haste on myself), and Dia II. I enfeebed and MB'ed, and only had the Refresh cycle to track. Everyone was happy.

May sound funny, but MP heavy party means lighter workload for a RDM; Refresh is best used on people who can do the work, so the RDM doesn't have to. I'm not sure if you'd be convince by my arguments, so all I can offer is this: "Been there, done that (twice)--it can be good."

Just level BRD or COR and you will see why this setup is generally a pain in the ass
BRD30, and, yes, giving PLD Ballad was a pain. (I've stated that about AoE buffs, I believe.)

I guess you're say a lot of level 75 WARs and MNKs are "second tier" then. Because my slugs to more damage than the average Rampage of Asuran Fists in merits.
Spike damage is nice, but you'd need to parse the entire session to see how much COR (or anyone else) contributes to the damage bottom line.

It's been a long time since I had a COR in party, but they did parse significantly under the likes of WAR's and MNK's, IIRC. Which is fine, in my book.

(Plus, comparing a good player against bad players isn't really a fair comparison of different jobs' DD potential. My RDM out DD'ed a NIN and a BLM back in a party in Yhoator Jungle--the NIN because he wasn't terribly good, and the BLM because she's good and was helping out with healing when needed. That hardly mean RDM at that level is a better DD than either the NIN or BLM.)

Well, your 52 PT had the Shield Gorget and Optical Hat, you tell me.
/sigh Seemed like you moved on from that Lv.52 setup, so I tried to follow. Is that so bad?

* * *

Why so abrasive, BBQ? As one of the most experienced COR active on the site, you can be a mentor and leader to other up-and-coming COR's, instead of coming off as a crass know-it-all. (You probably would answer you don't care how other people think of you. lol. Kinda funny that I feel bad, thinking people often misunderstand you.)

* * *

I'm afraid I'd have to call some shenannies on this one as well.
I should have worded it a little better; the Bad COR I saw often drop rolls, and just focused on DD'ing.

Good COR's
Is COR a '2nd-tier DD)? In terms of total DoT, probably, but not because of the output per hit, it's because they have other stuff to do other than volley bullets. But can a COR/RNG hit harder than a WAR or MNK? Yeah, probably.
Here, this is what I mean; the Good COR's "have other stuff to do other than volley bulllets". That's why bad COR's can out DD them.

Is this clearer? ^_^;

* * *

As for matching WAR or MNK, let's ask this: Do RNG's generally exceed WAR's and MNK's dmage output by a huge margin? If not, then I wouldn't expect COR's do match WAR or MNK even DD'ing full time. If RNG's roughly matching WAR's and MNK's, then COR is logically a tier below, that's all.

Saying COR is a second tier DD isn't meant to an insult; it's a compliment to a job initially thought of as a BRD clone.

[Vyuru]

It's late, test tomorrow, tired, confused, confounded, and befuddled, so I only have this to say.

Corsair is much like a Gaxe wielding warrior to me.

The comparison is this:

Gaxe using warrior *should* be using break WS, these may not be as powerful as omgwtfRampage, but, with their incredible enfeeblement effects they should allow your party to deal more damage than that Rampage would have dealt, either to fewer missed hits, or def down, let alone the potential healing saved due to att and acc down.


Cor/brd is much like that Gaxe using warrior. If, by subbing bard, you could substitute a roll for a song, you could give the melee, or other party members, an additional roll that may or may not boost their performance, and overall party performance, to a greater height than would have otherwise been possible by you going cor/rng.

I'm not saying cor/X is teh best! I am merely saying there is a place for just about any job combo, and I don't think you should be quite so close minded about this particular combo Omgwtfbbqkitten.


It's not just your damage, and your total share in the parties damage that counts, it is how well you boost and contribute to the parties damage and functionality that counts. Remember people, there is no I in team, there is only me! :P

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

For the record, I don't think COR/BRD is the most helpful combinations in most setups, but it seems to have a place in MP heavy exp parties without BRD or other /BRD--but, those are pretty rare.

Well, it boggles my kind these kinds of PTs still happen. Maybe I'm just spoiled and will have to settle for this kind of setup when I go back to levelling DRG, but I don't have to settle for it as COR or BRD, no matter how snotty that may sound.



Just a thought, but since RNG job abilities are on 5 minute timers, you should analyze the damage output over a 5 minute period rather than a "best I can do in a minute" kind of breakdown. (The point that COR/RNG is a much better DD than COR/BRD is valid, of course.)

Can you really TP enough to get a Slugshot every fight at meripo levels, BTW? (I'm just curious... )


I can get 100 just about every other fight or every other fight pretty easy, when you have Joyeuse and Coffinmaker/Martial Gun, TPing isn't too hard or slow. Its only when pulling comes into the picture that melee and damage go out the window.

May sound funny, but MP heavy party means lighter workload for a RDM; Refresh is best used on people who can do the work, so the RDM doesn't have to. I'm not sure if you'd be convince by my arguments, so all I can offer is this: "Been there, done that (twice)--it can be good."

I'm just going to agree to disagree with this one. I've had the MP heavy PT as RDM and whoever wants it can keep it.

Spike damage is nice, but you'd need to parse the entire session to see how much COR (or anyone else) contributes to the damage bottom line.

I don't parse because I play on PS2, but when I say I do 400-500 per Barrage and 450-800 per Slug, I'm not pulling those numbers out of the sky. Lots of CORs have already parse these and greater numbers under varying situations.

It's been a long time since I had a COR in party, but they did parse significantly under the likes of WAR's and MNK's, IIRC. Which is fine, in my book.

(Plus, comparing a good player against bad players isn't really a fair comparison of different jobs' DD potential. My RDM out DD'ed a NIN and a BLM back in a party in Yhoator Jungle--the NIN because he wasn't terribly good, and the BLM because she's good and was helping out with healing when needed. That hardly mean RDM at that level is a better DD than either the NIN or BLM.)



Why so abrasive, BBQ? As one of the most experienced COR active on the site, you can be a mentor and leader to other up-and-coming COR's, instead of coming off as a crass know-it-all. (You probably would answer you don't care how other people think of you. lol. Kinda funny that I feel bad, thinking people often misunderstand you.)


Kinda stated it already. I don't like subjobs that add nothing to the main job for the player. I don't like the encouragement of a marginal subjob because we've already had plenty of visitors that want to halfass/cheap their way to 75 rather than play an effective COR.

COR/BRD is a giver, but its a defenseless and offenseless giver. If I'm gonna take a full support stance, I want something that will give back to that function. /WHM, /RDM and /BLU do that. Those Evoker's Rolls will give me MP, too.

/NIN is purely defensive, but it becomes a selling point when your a manaburn or TP burn puller, there's an edge to that, even if it does nothing for your damage/accuracy it does something for high EXP chains and it allows you to take risks you normally couldn't.

/BLU grants COR support to a PT and the best QD accuracy of any subjob. +5 AGI may not seem like a lot, but considering how much I pile on, thats all the better and MAB is another boost.

/RDM gives you the MAB, Cure and another dispel to use.

/WHM's functions are just as obvious as they are for /BRD - status cures, back up heals.

/BRD is just one direction, it gives nothing to COR and if you tried to, you'd burn up time you could be buffing others or DDing. Its marginal and boring. Cheap, too. People expect CORs to DD even if they don't invite them to do so specifically.


Here, this is what I mean; the Good COR's "have other stuff to do other than volley bulllets". That's why bad COR's can out DD them.

Is this clearer? ^_^;


It makes no sense.

A bad COR doesn't even keep rolls up. A bad COR typically goes /WHM, /NIN or /BRD where it isn't neccessary to do so because they don't want to invest in /RNG. A bad COR melees with knives, wears STR rings and Fang Necklace. A bad COR never risks the bust and always sits on a six.

A good COR knows to keep rolls up, usually goes /RNG in most setups because other subjobs aren't neccessary most of the time. They wait to melee when they can more viably use a sword and consistantly TP with thier guns. They'll take a chance to get the best buff possible.

A good COR will outdamage and outbuff the bad COR, the bad COR will not outdamage the good COR, ever.

Levelling COR without /RNG is like levelling PLD or NIN without /WAR. Other subjobs have a time and place, but for EXP, there's little else you need but /RNG.

If you want to be a backliner, plenty of other jobs out there for that, COR shouldn't be one of them.

Saying COR is a second tier DD isn't meant to an insult; it's a compliment to a job initially thought of as a BRD clone.

You'll catch more pirates with rum than you will with vinegar.

[Spider-Dan]

/BRD is nice if you're in the BLM party for Dynamis, or if you're in a manaburn (assuming you don't have a bard in either case).

I don't see much use for it outside of that.