Level 40, 'The Wall'

[Saren]

Half self frustration based rant, half panic so sorry in advance ^ ^

Last night was the worst night I have ever had as whm. I can flat out say that when we started the party I was a truly awful whm, 5 deaths in 2-3 hours *cringe*. I haven’t had deaths in ages, then as soon as I hit 40, 7 in two parties. It’s like I hit level 40 and suddenly it’s the dunes again but this time it’s only me that sucks and I suck worse. :cry:

I mean I can see now some of the contributing factors, my total lack of experience with pld tanks (unless you count one at level 25 for half an hour), fighting mobs where barspells have been pointless for 10-15 levels, the fact that whm does get a lot more complex at 40, etc but still, I was BAD. I just....couldn't keep ontop of everything and my mind went blank.

Thankfully the party stuck with me and one of the two people I static with has whm 75 so when I finally panicked really badly and asked for help she calmed me down and started to re-remind/teach/prompt me until I was getting the hang of things again. My brain just looked at everything I was trying to keep track of and went 'nuuurrrrrrr flibble, you're on your own with this one'. I definitely think I was doing a lot better in the second half of the party (no deaths in the last 2-3 hours) and I had less support curing from the blm we got to replace the brd. I also managed to Elemental Seal and sleep a bat link without anyone having to ask me to when the blm had trouble with it which made me feel slightly better.

Things that I was reminded of or taught last night:

1. Don't panic, everything else is much, much easier if you aren’t running around and panicing like a headless chicken.
2. I mean it, don't panic
3. Barfira for goblins needs to go up straight away if one is pulled (yes….I know, I did say awful and not just bad)
4. Barwatera for flys needs to go up straight away if one is pulled. Cursed Sphere does not poison people, Venom poisons people.
5. Make sure the PLD is poison free at the end of the fight, they need to rest
6. Curaga and Divine Seal + Curaga ftw if more than two people need curing at the end of the fight, or even a mid fight curaga (thanks Taskmage for the Mycophile Cuff recommendation, they help a lot)
7. It’s o.k to rest through a whole fight so long as you get the bar spell up and no one is about to die.
8. It’s o.k. not to haste more than the tank if you can’t do it and keep your mp up.
9. It’s o.k to leave certain things on certain people, even if they ask you to take them off. Evasion down on PLD doesn’t do much but evasion down on a Nin you would remove asap. Weak poison on blm/whm/pld is bad but on a DD in the white who doesn't need to rest, not really a problem.
10. Max mp really does mean absolutely jack. Woo you had a higher mp total than without those mp rings for about a minute, after that minute leaving those mp rings on does nothing for you. Also, even though my enfeebling skill is ten levels higher than either my enhancing or my healing magic skill, I need both saintly rings to land enfeebles on exp mobs now unless it’s the element the mob is strong against, in which case, forget it. I have been using the extra MP from a full rest to get an extra haste out in the first fight and that’s about it.

Another friend who has whm 72 said he hit the same wall of sucking horribly at 40 and hated the whole of 40-50, was he being kind to me or is it fairly normal to go through a few levels of argh at level 40ish? I am just struggling for time and to regen mp fast enough at the moment. I have every single piece of hmp+ gear I can get at my level barring the insanely hard to get one, I use Wizard Cookies and I go through about a stack of melon Juice every 2 hours. I regen where I can, curagaing where I can has definitely helped too but I have more long cast time spells now and getting out the necessary ones (regen on the tank, haste on the tank, regens on any DDs in the yellow if time allows and it doesn’t look like I can just curaga in a few seconds) without letting anyone get in serious danger hasn’t clicked yet.

I definitely need to do some work on my knowledge of mobs, other jobs, keep track of hate more closely and figuring out who has poison etc on even if they are regened. The last two are just a matter of looking more closely which once I am more settled with what I am doing again should be easier. I am sure there are people here who sailed through 40 without problems but I am definitely not one of them. I am hoping it will go like the dunes and everything that was hard to remember 5 or so levels ago will become second nature and semi automatic.

Any tips that anyone has or anything that flags as missing in my approach or what I said above would be very much appreciated ^ ^

[Shadowneko]

nice rant...I'm currently lvl 46 summoner and it gets that way for me sometimes too(although I prefer avatars). I'm currently taking a break tho and have swapped obver to my 75 THF to farm up the gill for staves and such...

[fencingkitty]

Only just out of the 40-50 break myself (54) I can say I understand what you're going through a bit. Good mental checklist as well. ^^ Points 1 & 2 are really the most important advice for a mage I think.

It's about this point that I discovered how much I absolutely love partying w/a RDM in party. Refresh and a main enfeebler made life go much more smoothly for me.

In the end, I wouldn't stress it overly or else you won't enjoy it anymore. I always think I'm a bad WHM no mater what my linkshell and fiance say. ^^ ;; And it sounds like you very actively try to just be better despite whatever bombs the game throws at you. Kudos and good luck. >^.^<

[Olorin401]

Just wanted to mention this, since I've seen a lot of White Mages that don't use it.

Regens are just as important as Cures! And they save you so much MP too.

[Icemage]

A few quick survival notes:

(1) Stay out of area attack range once you've cast your Barspell. Nothing is as bad as being the healer in need of healing yourself. Dash in, cast, and get back out of the mix ASAP.

(2) If you absolutely must cast Divine Seal + Curaga or use Benediction mid-fight and you have a strong suspicion the monster isn't going to die immediately afterwards, do yourself a favor and cast Blink and/or Stoneskin before doing so.

(3) If for some reason you pull hate with all that curing, don't move. Once you get to level 45 you get access to Flash, which is a nice way to buy yourself a few moments to cast Blink if you're quick. Other party members can't raise their enmity levels if you're running around pulling the monster out of their attack/casting range, so do them a favor and take your lumps like a man.

(4) For love of all that's holy keep Reraise up. :P


Icemage

[Nazo]

Don't assume that just because people are dying it's your fault. It's easy to blame yourself, after all you're the healer, but it should be everyone's responsibility to play in a way that minimizes deaths. A lot of players, especially those with higher level jobs used to TP burns and the like, seem to forget that at lower levels mages don't have unlimited mp and it's necessary to stop and rest for mp sometimes.

[Lunaryn]

I didn't notice any particular jump in difficulty here. However, it's worth noting that I started to eat Goblin Mushpot before this point; if you have trouble landing enfeebles you may want to consider this, as it grants MND+10 (which dwarfs a Saintly Ring). This is sold by the goblin cook in the very back of the junk shop in Lower Jeuno.

I haven't made huge investments in +hMP, but I do have the Pilgrim's Wand, which is definitely handy if you don't mind spending some hours camping an NM (Rare/Ex 100% drop).

[Chveya]

Let me commiserate with you. *hugs* I've just been through 40-50 on WHM myself, and for a few levels there in the early 40s, I thought I was losing my mind. I love White Mage and yet it felt horrible during a good portion of my 40s.

It all started when I got Haste. I was leveling with my LS in the jungle by the Yhoat telepoint. I was already kind of struggling keeping up with all the status effects that the couerls were putting on my tank- add to that trying to keep up my very first Haste cycle, and you have one frustrated (and MP-less) WHM.

Fighting Flys in Gustav or CN wasn't any easier either. I had a few parties there with BRDs, but even with refresh songs I was still feeling a bit overwhelmed. I dread Cursed Sphere now, especially when the fly does two really close together.

Then, come the spideys in Quicksand Caves. I hate you spiders!!! *shakes fist* Erase, Haste, Erase, Haste, Erase, Haste.... not to mention Sickle Slash.

Things finally started to feel a little bit less stressful around lvl 48. Having a competent party with a refresher does really really help. I became (perhaps foolishly) confident enough to join a party with a WAR/NIN tank and no other mages, which got me from early 49 to mid 50. And we only had one death (when the puller ignored the fact that I only had 43 MP left and brought another beetle to camp). ^^'

As far as advice goes, I'd say you are already doing really well. The first step to solving your problem is the fact that you recognize there is a problem. I like your list. XD

Here are a few things I tried to remember during my exping when I felt things start to overwhelm me:

1) I don't have to Haste everyone. It's nice to, but sometimes other things take priority.
2) I don't have to Erase everyone. Random DD-er will sometimes just have to live with evasion down until it wears.
3) Don't forget about Divine Seal! (I am notoriously bad at remembering I have this). Boost your curing power for free? {Yes, please!}
4) PAY ATTENTION to what other party members are doing so (for example) I don't waste MP (and time) casting Paralyze or Slow when the NIN already did that.

Also, I brought 6-7 Yag Drinks with me to parties for a few levels in the early 40s; that helped a LOT.

For mob moves like Venom or Poison Breath, I watch the chat log for the message to appear, then quickly look at the position of my melees in battle to see who was in position to be hit. I have damage filters turned completely off, so sometimes I will look at the HP bars too, to see who got hit. I'll then cast Poisona on the appropriate people. After that, I monitor the HP bars to see if any are steadily falling, if I missed anyone affected.

[Amele]

(disclaimer: talking specifically 72-, merits and endgame are a very different ballpark).

(6) don't be afraid to use curaga II also, mp permitting - just treat it like you do a benediction (i.e. only use if it won't be getting you killed)

(8) paladins don't really need haste. (sorry paladins), if you can only haste one person with a paladin tank, haste the best DD, not the paladin. (it's good to haste the ninja regardless of the rest of the party makeup).

(10) equipment swaps are your friend, max mp can important when you can rest into it (happens often enough at lower levels) and if you're getting refreshed regularly sometimes you'll need more mp to get the full benefit of refresh. - don't neglect one set for the other!

(11) like olorin said: abuse regen. it's your most efficient healing spell.

I also didn't notice a significant increase in difficulty at 40-50 but I was 40-50 on my whitemage back in 2004 (party dynamics were rather different than today) so that may have had alot to do with it.

[DieselBoy09]

It might not have been completely your fault. If the paladin was wearing weak gear or not curing themselves that can increase the rate of death very quickly. Also, if the puller pulls when you're not in a safe mp range.

But like above, regen is a friend. Besides that, I'd have to watch your group in pt to see what was going wrong.

[Saren]

Thanks guys. I know I was into freak out and whining but…..while I won’t say I was gods gift to whm before this I am pretty sure I was a decent whm, the sudden drop in performance was a bit of a jolt. I have put quite a lot of effort into reading about my job, making sure I have helpful gear, knowing what my abilities do and how they work etc and it’s just plain embarrassing that I was doing that badly after going to what I know is more effort than a lot of people put in. I had a few chats with whm friends today and I have a good few suggestions to try out that will stop me running out of casting time which is one of the main problems I am having at the moment.

Hahaha thanks Icemage I do actually follow all of your points, if I am outside of a starter area or a town, my reraise is up, all the time and I get out of the way quick smartish after that barspell goes up. Thankyou for the hug Chveya, your post made me smile and feel better ^ ^ I am sorry you also had the period of almost losing your mind 40-50 that I seem to be having. Amele, the pld was having trouble holding hate so I didn't want to make it worse by hasting one of the DD and I do have a set of max mp gear I promise, I swap it in when I am getting close to max mp, it's just not really been getting much in the way of use because I am barely everclose to max mp.


Our puller is one of the people I static with. She’s scary but awesome, 75 thf, 75 whm (she’s the one who calmed me down and prompted me till I got back on my feet) and is levelling ranger so she has a lot of pulling practice. She leaves when the mob is at 10% most of the time and pulls very very fast, which I will admit freaked me out initially because she pulls whatever my mp is at and I don’t always get time to rest for more than a tick or two between fights but this is part of the reason I concentrate so much on hmp + when looking at gear and food(I am rarely within 100 points of full mp) and we always make at least chain 4 unless we have to stop to wait for repops. I know our parties tend to be a bit support light, it’s usually me or me and a bard; but that’s because 30-39 I wasn’t really having too much trouble curing/buffing/debuffing on my own.

I had a look at Goblin mushpot that you suggested Lunaryn and it’s a huge mnd boost but honestly I just can’t justify losing my 7hmp from wizard cookies. I have +14hmp from gear and food now when I party and I pop a melon juice any time I go under 100mp or the puller shouts they are bringing something that I know will need a bit more casting from me and I am under 150. It’s expensive but it helps a lot, especially because we’ve only had a refresher for about half our parties. I am looking forward to a friend joining us when we hit 45 on his rdm very very much. My landing enfeebles isn’t so much of a problem because my skill is very close to cap and I have quite a lot of +mnd just because it’s the best thing I can get in a few slots right now.

The biggest problem I am finding at the moment is that I am running out of time for everything, to the point where it's getting too dangerous for me to cast regen very much. If we have a nin tank it’s not so bad because assuming they can hold hate I can cast a regen without anyone getting into trouble and regens are enough to keep the DDs healthy. We have had a lot of war/nin tanks recently however and the pld was sort of the same problem even though she cured herself some, hate was bouncing around quite a lot and the DDs take quite a bit of damage (the first two deaths were a DRK, damn soul eater is scary). I regen as much as I can and I love it but it’s getting to the point where Regen I is a plaster on a gushing wound for a lot of the DDs if hate is bouncing and in the time it takes me to cast it, people are dropping well into the orange and some mobs AoE attacks are getting scary (thankyou SE for making curaga). Hopefully regen II at 44 will do what most of what regen I used to do for me when I first got it and I can go back to being a regen happy whm.


Sorry for the long, and thankyou for the replies ^ ^

[Kasandaro]

Yep, Souleater is scary, and any DRK that abuses can easily hit dirt. Sounds like you keep getting parties where everyone's racing to cross the hate line.

As for Regen II. Yes, it heals faster than Regen. It's not more efficient, but it does heal more. The problems you're going to find with it are
1) cast time - if you're having issues with just Haste and Regen cast times, Regen II doesn't make it any easier. If I've got a good Refresher and Enfeebler, I often end up interleaving Regen and Haste, since the cast times are close-ish.
2) cost - 36 mp isn't cheap, depending on race. Cheaper than a Cure III, yes, but still, not cheap.

Another thing to remember is party members only have to be topped off against mobs with nasty AoEs (gobs, eruca, flies). Not saying to let them get to orange, but your priority should be the tank. Many DDs I've seen, when they hit orange and are slowly brought back up to safe, become a lot more well-behaved.

What *are* you fighting, anyway?

[IfritnoItazura]

(8) paladins don't really need haste. (sorry paladins), if you can only haste one person with a paladin tank, haste the best DD, not the paladin. (it's good to haste the ninja regardless of the rest of the party makeup).

Hmm. As PLD62, RDM69 (and WHM44), I like PLD hasted.

The main reason is the Flash recast timer. Additional sword swings also make better use of all those enmity gear PLD's have. I noticed that when my PLD is not hasted, the static Samurai would get the monster's unwanted attention more easily. In fact, DD's taking the monster away from me is when I usually discover that "Hey, the Haste icon is gone!" and I send the static WHM a nasty /tell. :biggrin:

Also, if there's a skillchain, Haste should be prioritized for the melee player falling behind on TP.

The ideal, of course, is to keep every melee player hasted, but a WHM should have help either with hasting and/or curing for reaching that, especially at those levels. Otherwise, I'd usually put priority on the tank first, and the slower SC partner second, then everyone else my MP can support.

[Icemage]

DRK problems with Souleater will always be there, though there IS light at the end of the tunnel once you get Cure V at level 61. While it still doesn't fix the problem of suicidal DRKs, it gives you a shot at saving them without fixating hate on yourself at the same time. :)

As for PLD, I don't really think it's totally necessary unless fighting something that can do weak Slow effects (Skeletons, and especially Crawlers) which Haste can defend against. Otherwise unless hate's looking sketchy, it's often better to save the MP for emergencies. Without a RDM to back you up, or a double dose of Corsair + Bard for extra MP flow, you won't have enough MP to Haste every melee and a PLD.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Without a RDM to back you up, or a double dose of Corsair + Bard for extra MP flow, you won't have enough MP to Haste every melee and a PLD.

I guess it comes down to this: if you have the MP to Haste and cure the DD's, you can prioritize PLD's Haste lower than the DD's.

Haste helps the PLD do his job better, AND cut down on damage taken via more frequent Flash. (For NIN, helps him keeps up Utsusemi AND doing more damage to generate enmity--again, doing his job better, and taking less damage.) Better tanking means the DD's can let loose more, the very same idea in hasting the DD: more damage.

Over time, Haste on PLD saves you (or the PLD) MP for cures thanks to more Flash, and PLD can hold the monsters better, helping the DD's.

That's my reasoning for recommending Haste for PLD as priority. Yes, a Paladin can tank without it, but there is good argument for putting PLD high on the list.

Aside:
Ninjas universally view Haste as non-optional when my RDM or WHM is in the party. I wonder how they get through parties with SMN+BRD (well, and maybe BLM) as the only backline? Do they demand that Hastega which most SMN's hate to use? Do they actually get it?!

[Saren]

What *are* you fighting, anyway?

It was Flies and Goblins Poacher/Robber/Reaper in Gustav Tunnel.

For Regen II, at the moment I will trade the decreased efficiency for the chance to stop cure spamming long enough so I can be more efficient elsewhere or actually rest long enough to regain mp during most fights again, assuming I can cast it without anyone dying. Learning to anticipate the hate and mob better is definitely something I need to work on so I can fit the longer cast time spells together more safely.

Geh...I really want to go get an exp party and try to iron out my kinks for a few levels but I have to wait till Monday, roll on Monday. ^ ^

[Amele]

Hmm. As PLD62, RDM69 (and WHM44), I like PLD hasted.
The main reason is the Flash recast timer. Additional sword swings also make better use of all those enmity gear PLD's have. I noticed that when my PLD is not hasted, the static Samurai would get the monster's unwanted attention more easily. In fact, DD's taking the monster away from me is when I usually discover that "Hey, the Haste icon is gone!"
most paladins don't have significant enmity before 60 (although I did say it would apply through 72 so this is a decent point) - given the choice between hasting my paladin or having enough mp to flash twice in the same interval myself, I'm going to flash twice (50% flash reduction > 15% flash reduction) I realize that this is flawed in the sense that a whitemage should routinely have enough mp to not need to choose, but my comment was largely predicated on the assumption that mp was limited.
DD taking away the mob for ~20-30 seconds is no big deal and actually can be more efficient from a healing standpoint anyway (as much as hate jockeys might not like it :x - I know I hate not having it pointed at me 100% of the time when I'm tanking anything.) 200 damage from a round or two of hits through whatever damage mitigation the DD have is easily recouped with a regen II/III.
paladin enmity from swings is very nice, but the actual damage boost is negligible compared to that from hasting a real DD (pre pld/nin DD levels) and as such is not part of the critical path in exp (that is, killing things as fast as possible without anyone dying)
Also, if there's a skillchain, Haste should be prioritized for the melee player falling behind on TP.
this is only relevant if the Skillchain is for a SATAVB/DE closer or there is a blackmage magic bursting (non-AM) in the party, and the lagging player is not a ranger or corsair; but this is a very good point.
Otherwise the haste should go to the player who gets the biggest dot gain (usually a job like monk, dark, sam, drg, etc. typically discriminated by gear) in the case of players with varying haste setups, the player with the -most- haste gear should get haste priority, due to the way haste dot gains improve as you stack more of it.
The ideal, of course, is to keep every melee player hasted, but a WHM should have help either with hasting and/or curing for reaching that, especially at those levels. Otherwise, I'd usually put priority on the tank first, and the slower SC partner second, then everyone else my MP can support.
neither style is 'wrong' of course, but my personal priority list is:
utsusemi-tank, best DD, other x/nin, pld tank
non-traditional tanks (counterstance monk, sam/war etc) who hold hate primarily via damage and not JA, and whose damage mitigation is not on a spell timer, get hasted first as well, since they require the haste to do better dot. (note that almost without fail, an 'offensive' tank is typically one of the best DD and would get the haste first or second with a more traditional tank anyway)
Ninjas universally view Haste as non-optional when my RDM or WHM is in the party. I wonder how they get through parties with SMN+BRD (well, and maybe BLM) as the only backline? Do they demand that Hastega which most SMN's hate to use? Do they actually get it?!
I would expect hastega, yes. I'm not sure why summoners dislike it, except that it's not a rage BP. (it's one of the best buffs summoner has actually, from a dot standpoint) although now that they're on separate timers, there's really no excuse for a summoner to not be using ward BPs in exp.

[Icemage]

Haste is definitely non-optional on NIN/WAR tanks. Casting time reduction on Utsusemi is the key to the way they avoid damage and build enmity, and taking that away makes a Ninja tank far less effective. Always keep Haste on your Ninjas.

I don't know how all Ninjas deal with it, but SMN + BRD combinations I've played in the past usually dropped one Minuet(ATK+) in favor of March (Haste). A single March played with a +2 instrument provides around 8 or 9% Haste, which is good enough to get by with (and helps the DDs too - this works really well if the DDs also have Utsusemi).

I've never seen Hastega used in a party in a serious context. It's just too expensive MP-wise. 112 MP for 2 minutes of Haste. That's nearly 3 times the cost of the Haste spell, which lasts 3 minutes. Add to that the summoning cost and perpetuation cost of Garuda and you're now OVER 3 times the cost of Haste. Totally not worth it.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

I think someone else already made this point, but Haste on the best DD has a tendency to turn that DD into the MP sponge which kills the chain. It's not always true, but happened to my RDM often enough that I usually refuse to Haste any DD before the tank, unless the tank is a PLD and already have absolutely solid hold on enmity. (Which is rather rare post Lv.50, unless all DD's in the party are ill set up.)

Also, I don't view fastest exp as the most enjoyable exp. Having a tank holding the monster well is a beautiful thing to perform/assist with. Worth my MP on RDM (or WHM) to see it happen, and worth the slightly slower killing speed vs. hasting another DD instead, too, if MP is constrained.

* * *

I would expect hastega, yes. I'm not sure why summoners dislike it, except that it's not a rage BP. (it's one of the best buffs summoner has actually, from a dot standpoint) although now that they're on separate timers, there's really no excuse for a summoner to not be using ward BPs in exp.
There are two reasons:
1. Hastega is MP inefficient compared to Haste.

Hastega has the same % effect as Haste, but costs a whopping 120MP/90sec.
Haste is 40 MP/178sec. To get near the efficiency of Haste, Hastega has to hit FIVE people who benefits significantly from Haste--that means FIVE melee--not RNG or any mage (except BLU).

2. Since Hastega is only 90 seconds, it means SMN cannot keep up Haste full time without skipping other BP buffs.

On the upside, the typical Haste cycle (3 melee) takes much longer to cast than Hastega--having the SMN doing it gives the RDM and WHM a lot of breathing time.

[Icemage]

Might be because I'm Tarutaru, but I think I only ever saw a Summoner in my RDM parties once from level 40-75. Seems everyone and their brother expects Taru RDM to be limitless fountains of MP (which is nearly true, but even "limitless" gets stretched when you're debuffing, Hasting, Refreshing, AND healing the entire party...).


Icemage

[Amele]

I think someone else already made this point, but Haste on the best DD has a tendency to turn that DD into the MP sponge which kills the chain. It's not always true, but happened to my RDM often enough that I usually refuse to Haste any DD before the tank, unless the tank is a PLD and already have absolutely solid hold on enmity. (Which is rather rare post Lv.50, unless all DD's in the party are ill set up.)
Also, I don't view fastest exp as the most enjoyable exp. Having a tank holding the monster well is a beautiful thing to perform/assist with. Worth my MP on RDM (or WHM) to see it happen, and worth the slightly slower killing speed vs. hasting another DD instead, too, if MP is constrained.

different goals in exp, I guess. when I go to exp, I go to get the fastest exp I can as quickly as I can. (I derive enjoyment on my jobs from missions, quests, and events, not from grinding levels) and, by the level a whitemage has haste, almost all DD should have some combination of:

1) massive hp and self healing ability (cures, chakra, drain)
2) multiple passive evasion traits (evasion,parry,guarding,counter,shield,etc)
3) active damage mitigation (third eye, utsusemi)
4) enmity shedding ability (jump, hide, Trick attack)

which when combined with the 'best' tag I stuck on the #1 priority DD means they know when and how to use these abilities to lessen the curing load on the healer.

fights will also take less time, leading to less time spent on mobs at <30% hp with opportunities to gain (and spam) TP moves. of course, if a DD really is becoming a damage sponge, then I'd haste a different DD.

and again, any paladin worth their surcoat is going to be able to get the monster back before the DD has taken more than about 200~ damage which is easily recovered by spells more efficient than cure. - regen and curaga are maximized by having multiple enemies being hit.*

*which of course leads to the corollary that if you don't have a whm, you might want to consider changing the haste order slightly if a high hate DD results in needing to spam cure on someone with significantly less damage reduction from the tank.


There are two reasons:
1. Hastega is MP inefficient compared to Haste.

Hastega has the same % effect as Haste, but costs a whopping 120MP/90sec.
Haste is 40 MP/178sec. To get near the efficiency of Haste, Hastega has to hit FIVE people who benefits significantly from Haste--that means FIVE melee--not RNG or any mage (except BLU).
2. Since Hastega is only 90 seconds, it means SMN cannot keep up Haste full time without skipping other BP buffs.
On the upside, the typical Haste cycle (3 melee) takes much longer to cast than Hastega--having the SMN doing it gives the RDM and WHM a lot of breathing time.

yeah, it's very much less efficient than whm or rdm haste (although, in a brd+smn+4 party, you could argue for the benefit of haste on bard since they're the primary dispeller; achieving the 5 person count for approximate efficiency.) - but the loss of a buff from summoner is less of a loss than the loss of a buff from bard (and the pt was specifically stated as being brd+smn) until the highest levels or in a 'smart' VT party with well equipped melee - at which point you'll be getting march as one of your two songs anyway. you can also cycle it as a 2 minute buff, losing 30 seconds on the cycle (this is not the worst way to run it, especially if you have the bard sing a march to cover the 30 second gap).

the number of parties I have seen pre 70 where march really was the 'right' second slot buff from bard I could probably count on one hand, and all of them were with at least a half static. so given the choice between losing some combination of +26 evasion and accuracy, or losing a guaranteed 30+ attack or accuracy, I'll take the the evasion/accuracy loss mix.

I agree that in a party with a whitemage or redmage, smn shouldn't really be using hastega.

[IfritnoItazura]

1) massive hp and self healing ability (cures, chakra, drain)
2) multiple passive evasion traits (evasion,parry,guarding,counter,shield,etc)
3) active damage mitigation (third eye, utsusemi)
4) enmity shedding ability (jump, hide, Trick attack)

which when combined with the 'best' tag I stuck on the #1 priority DD means they know when and how to use these abilities to lessen the curing load on the healer.

That was my theory as well, until I hasted one MNK/NIN with an OK-ish NIN tank (already on Haste). Utususemi: Ichi + MNK HP + Chakra + Dodge + Guard + Counter. I swear she had dump in merit on Hand-to-Hand and other stuff from another job or something. @_@ That MNK was saving WS until second provoke, too, IIRC.

Maybe a WHM could've handled it, but I was on RDM with enfeeb duty and had no Flash or Regen II. Had to cut off Haste for that MNK...


* * *

Love WHM's when I'm on RDM, BTW--you guys make my life so much easier. Want to use Dia II for skill up? YES, PLEASE! Second chance enfeebler on Slow? I can almost kiss you!

Regen II/III? Doing the majority of curing? Take over Bar- spells? Status removal for me? Yes, yes, yes, and YES!

[Amele]

Yeah, all my advice is obviously tainted in favor of having the full suite of healing tools at my disposal. (rdm 10 smn 39 >.> )

to be totally honest at 75 I prefer parties where no one in particular is tanking, they're much much easier on my mp. (I love parties where I never need to actually cast 'cure'. regen/Curaga {yes, please.})

like I said, my haste order is predicated on doing my part as whm to maximize exp/hr, and if the haste order also facilitates increased mp efficiency for me? then all the better. :)

[Saren]

Static night was this evening, you can tell that because it’s 9am here now and my typing will probably be worse than normal, probably should have gone to bed instead of doing a rank mission when the static finished. The good news is (for me at least) is that I may actually be getting back ontop of a few things.

5-6 hours on the goblins in Yhoator Jungle just by Ifrit’s Cauldren, 3 level ups, one death which I am pretty certain was not my fault. The Taru war/nin decided to see if he could uber aggressor + ws + something without upsetting the hate significantly just as the rdm and I were both casting something else, turns out he can’t and the rdm and I both spamming cure 3s on him couldn’t stop him going under from nearly full hp in about 5 seconds, so not actually feeling that bad about that one.

Having a rdm helped a lot even though he DCed about once an hour: someone else in charge of the enfeebling, I get refresh and a few back up cures if I am in the middle of casting something else, it was nice. The only problem with having a rdm in the party is that I now have convert envy.

I made myself a little reference of real time to game time thing for spells like protect, reraise, and haste and kept track of wears on the in game clock rather than trying to guestimate based on the clock by my computer. That seemed to help a lot: once I got how long haste lasted and set up a loose routine for interleaving haste and regen for the timing everything became much more automatic. I went from headless chicken to managing to keep a tank & 1 melee haste cycle going almost all the time (had to drop the melee when the rdm disconnected). 2 melees gets a little dicey but hopefully I should be able to manage it soon.

I think I am back into proper use of curagas *cheer*, I love having enough mp for them to be mp sustainable cures now. Regen 2 is great, it’s new and shiny regen 1 all over again. Slapping this on the tank means no cure bombing unless there is a TP move or two big hits close together and gives me enough time away from cure bombing to make everything else easier and lets me slap regens on the DDs instead of cure bombing them. Flash is awesome and with the hugely reduce cure spell volume I could actually rest in fights again

The second nin tank we had was really really good, not played like any nin I have seen before. He had parrying + daggers and was elemental wheeling. No idea how much damage he was doing but he could hold hate like a Trojan and took very little damage.

I don’t want to jinx anything but at least today I didn’t feel like I was going barmy trying to keep up with everything ^ ^

[Irisjir Callard]

Just wanted to mention this, since I've seen a lot of White Mages that don't use it.
Regens are just as important as Cures! And they save you so much MP too.




(4) For love of all that's holy keep Reraise up. :P



This sums up everything I was going to say.

[Karinya]

The first thing that occurred to me when I saw the original post is "what was that party setup"? Failure is often a team effort.

A lot of people are inclined to blame the healer for deaths, but sometimes it was just a party built to fail. Not enough backline, puller too aggressive when the healer and/or tank are low on mp, DDs going ape and not watching their hate; there are many things that the rest of the party can do that will get someone killed in spite of everything the whm can do about it. (A bad tank is possible too, but tanks also get blamed a lot for deaths that were someone else's fault.) That's one of the reasons why "keep Reraise up" is such good advice.

If you haste a DD and not the tank, and find that DD getting hit a lot, haste the tank instead (or maybe in addition - haste costs less than the cure 3 you'll be casting if the DD takes a hit). And don't blame them - it's hard enough to hold hate off DDs on today's super-squishy mobs (and super-reckless DDs) *without* being on the wrong end of a Haste gap.