Could SE make Merited Job Traits available for subjobs?

[Vyuru]

Title says it all really, could SE make merited Job Traits usable when that job is subbed?

Most of these job traits affect an ability in the lvl 35ish range, so you will probably not be seeing their effects until lvl 70+. If SE wanted to, they could make it so that you had to be lvl 75 before you could use these traits.

Next, most of the jobs that gain the cool spiffy traits could either actually make a decent subjob, or are the currently used subjobs for alot of jobs.

List of most useful meritable job traits:

Warrior:

Savagery, Adds TP Bonus (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/TP_Bonus) effect to Warcry (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Warcry)

Monk:

Invigorate, Adds a Regen effect when using Chakra
Penance, Adds an effect to Chi Blast that inhibits an enemy's TP (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Tactical_Points) accumulation

Thief:

Aura Steal, Adds a Dispel effect to Steal (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Steal). Occasionally absorbs dispelled effect
Ambush, Grants an accuracy bonus to melee and ranged attacks from behind an enemy

Dark Knight:

Desperate Blows, Reduces delay for two-handed weapons when using Last Resort (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Last_Resort) by 5% per merit
Muted Soul, Reduces enmity while using Souleater (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Souleater) by 10 per merit

Ranger:

Recycle, Occasionally allows ranged attacks without consuming amunition
Snapshot, Reduces delay (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Delay) for ranged attacks

Samurai:

Ikishoten, Increases amount of TP gained with a Zanshin (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Zanshin) attack
Overwhelm, Grants a damage bonus with weapon skills perfomed face-to-face with an enemy

Now the basic idea would be the same, you need the job at level 75 in order to merit it. So for instance if I had a lvl 75 drg and sam, I could merit Overwhelm, and have that ability as drg/sam.

I think this could open up some interesting possiblities for job combinations later on, especially for Thief and maybe Dark Knight subjobs. You will also have to choise, merit your main job's abilities or merit your subjob's abilities. You still only get to upgrade 6 times for the group II merits.

[Legal Fish]

This doesn't work.

Most of these job traits affect an ability in the lvl 35ish range

But not all do.

Example:

Penance, Adds an effect to Chi Blast that inhibits an enemy's TP accumulation

A player needs to be level 82 to get Chi Blast with a subjob.

[Malacite]

I'd rather they find a way to make Category 1 merits available and even then that's a bit rediuclous in terms of power.

[Arctic Wolf]

Hmm, I don't know. Wouldn't that make some players at low level way too overpowered, compared to new players? Maybe it could've worked out in a nice way, but it would have to be thought about before they implented it in the game, I think.

[Vyuru]

Wouldn't that make some players at low level way too overpowered, compared to new players?

I could be wrong, but I don't really think so. Since these are all intended for subjob use that is what I'm looking at here.

Savagery becomes available at lvl 70

Invigorate becomes available at lvl 70

Aura Steal becomes available at lvl 10

Ambush becomes available at lvl 1

Desperate Blows becomes available at lvl 30

Muted Soul becomes available at lvl 60

Recycle and Snapshot become available at lvl 1

Ikishoten becomes available at lvl 40

Overwhelm is available at lvl 3 or so

Now then, Each merit to Overwhelm increases WS damage by 5%, a max of 3 upgrades.

Each merit to Ambush increases acc/racc by +3, max of 3 upgrades.

How many exp mobs use really usefull buff moves that would be really good to use Aura Steal on? I can't think of many, mostly Crabs and Pugils I suppose.

I would expect these to be the main low-mid level benefits of this idea, I really don't think that this would make players who had a merited lvl 75 job overpowered when they went to level a new job.

[Arctic Wolf]

How many exp mobs use really usefull buff moves that would be really good to use Aura Steal on? I can't think of many, mostly Crabs and Pugils I suppose.

Oh I just thought of how useful this would be in party areas such as Kuftal Tunnel, you wouldn't need a Red Mage as much for Dispel!

I see your point, but still am not convinced entirely. I don't have much left to say though, I think if Square Enix wanted to create it like that, they would have done so already. The idea does sound nice.

Now then, Each merit to Overwhelm increases WS damage by 5%, a max of 3 upgrades.


So a 500 damage weapon skill would do 25 damage extra. That isn't so much. And you don't get a 500 damage weapon skill quite often at low levels do you? Another interesting point it is.
But if you look at it from a new player's(Up to level 65) side, there isn't much competion left for them. High level players on a new job tend to have much better equipment, too.

[Arctic Wolf]

Double post accident, sorry!

[Legal Fish]

How many exp mobs use really usefull buff moves that would be really good to use Aura Steal on? I can't think of many, mostly Crabs and Pugils I suppose.

Crawlers, Crabs, Beetles, and I'm not even thinking so hard.


The idea is broken. Chi Blast is level 41 and what... you think Warrior Charge given from a sub-job is balanced? You have to include the JAs too, they are in the same group. Oh I bet those RDM will love Burst II! Chainspell goooo.

[Neomage]

Crawlers, Crabs, Beetles, and I'm not even thinking so hard.


The idea is broken. Chi Blast is level 41 and what... you think Warrior Charge given from a sub-job is balanced? You have to include the JAs too, they are in the same group. Oh I bet those RDM will love Burst II! Chainspell goooo.

I agree that this is a bad idea. Certain jobs are left behind enough even at 75. Making the already popular jobs even stronger won't help this problem at all.

[Ziero]

I don't think *any* JSE merit should be available to any other job besides the one it's specifically meant for. These abilities are supposed to help bring more variation to the jobs at endgame, which is why many of them are highly unique abilities. What they need to do is add more (useful) JSE merit abilities to *all* jobs, to be fair, while allowing another step towards actual unique character builds.

[Sevv]

You have to include the JAs too, they are in the same group. Oh I bet those RDM will love Burst II! Chainspell goooo.


The op said the Job Abilities not spells... or hell drg/rdm phalanx II for the win

[Legal Fish]

I don't think *any* JSE merit should be available to any other job besides the one it's specifically meant for. These abilities are supposed to help bring more variation to the jobs at endgame, which is why many of them are highly unique abilities. What they need to do is add more (useful) JSE merit abilities to *all* jobs, to be fair, while allowing another step towards actual unique character builds.


Right, RDM with Chainspell and all six Ancient Magic II spells. Not broken at all. Or hey! A /SMN is able to use lvl 75 Bloodpacts!

Let's not even forget the system is even more broken because of Empathy which requires a wyvern which all people lack.


You have to include spells/abilities with the traits, they are in the same group.

[Ziero]

....methinks you quoted the wrong quote?

[LilithAngel]

You have to include spells/abilities with the traits, they are in the same group.


That's good and all, but what you (and quite a few other posters in this thread) are missing is the point of the OP: the call was for the G2 Job *TRAITS* only, nothing else (no Job *ABILITIES*, nor *SPELLS*). AM II, Warrior's Charge, Debuffs II, none of that was included, nor is it a part of what is being asked for.

To further relieve confusion, let's also cut out G2 Job Traits that require job specific abilities and/or traits, and other circumstances that only exist at levels 38 and above.

Using the above filters, the *ONLY* merits that are a part of the OP's discussion are:

Savagery (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Savagery)
Invigorate (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Invigorate)
Aura Steal (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Aura_Steal)
Ambush (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Ambush)
Beast Healer (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Beast_Healer)
Desperate Blows (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Desperate_Blows)
Muted Soul (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Muted_Soul)
Ninja Tool Expertise (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Ninja_Tool_Expertise)
Guardian (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Guardian)
Recycle (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Recycle)
Snapshot (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Snapshot)
Ikishoten (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Ikishoten)
Overwhelm (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Overwhelm)

The above traits were the *ONLY* things the OP asked for, not JAs, not Spells, not G1.

That being said...

Those are the only traits that would work with the proposed addition. Any other traits not listed do not work because they either required JAs that are job specific (eg Empathy and Strafe), required job specific equipment (eg Beast Affinity), or required JAs that are above 37 (eg Iron Will and Penance). Not all jobs would get all meritable traits added, and not all jobs would even be included (all the current "XYZ Mage" jobs, Summoner, Ninja's San line, etc), so this would tend to exclude some jobs from popular (read: not always sensible) opinion in terms of "acceptable" subjobs as far as this topic is concerned (people will still continue to /NIN to [insert random job here], it's just that they'll be happier because their Shihei isn't getting eaten up as fast as before).

The topic has merit (no pun intended), but the implementation is a little skewed. The easy way to fix this is to either do the standard SE subjob fix and to lower the efficacy of said traits when subed (like most current JTs are), or do this: add a new Group 3 set of merits whose design and purpose is to be used exclusively for subjobs (i.e. they only become active when the job is used as a sub). That way, the job as a main remains unchanged, but when it undergoes the transformation from main to sub, it begins to behave differently (either by a bit or a lot, depending on the trait), yet still maintains its unique flavor.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm just going to use RNG as the example of what's flawed about this idea.
Rapid Shot is a trait that activates based on a precentage rate.

Snap Shot is a constant-effect haste trait for ranged weapons.

They're not the same thing, so these two don't stack. Rapid shot would be unaffected by Snapshot merits. Rapid shot would be the same as ever.

I think merit traits and abilities are meant to be exclusives for each respective job. We've already seen the damage /THF does to THF in the long term, I'd rather not see that get extended to other jobs.

I should also add that COR already has Rapid Shot, they have the fastest gun in the game (Peacemaker) and Quick Draw is one of thier signature moves. They have no problem cranking out quick shots if that's what the situation calls for. And SAM/RNG is already incredibly powerful, I don't think SAM needs more, faster ways to gain TP.

[Legal Fish]

That's good and all, but what you (and quite a few other posters in this thread) are missing is the point of the OP: the call was for the G2 Job *TRAITS* only, nothing else (no Job *ABILITIES*, nor *SPELLS*). AM II, Warrior's Charge, Debuffs II, none of that was included, nor is it a part of what is being asked for.

Except that's broken. Traits/Abilities/Spells are in the same group, to treat certain traits special while ignoring others is broken. You are giving these traits incredible power, it simply doesn't work that way if you want a balanced game.

This idea is broken and there hasn't been much thought in it, as that's obvious to see.

[nickofearth]

dun think I'd work well. I have always said I'd level war to 75 just to merit double attack if it worked for drg/war. XD Never gonna happen though. lol

[Aeni]

I don't think *any* JSE merit should be available to any other job besides the one it's specifically meant for. These abilities are supposed to help bring more variation to the jobs at endgame, which is why many of them are highly unique abilities. What they need to do is add more (useful) JSE merit abilities to *all* jobs, to be fair, while allowing another step towards actual unique character builds.

Well ... I think if you need to help the jobs that need help the most, you're going to need to nerf the other jobs that are excelling atm. If you want balance, that's the only way, I'm sorry to any "fanboi" job classes I may have offended. Just adding more options to job classes that need help isn't going to change a damn thing. You need to hurt the status quo and make them change their ways.

Nerfing certain job classes do not need to be done directly either. They could be indirect "corrections" made, for example, by increasing the difficulty in the monsters in such a way they inhibit performance of certain job classes (creating a penalty system for them) The degradation need not be very dramatic. Just enough to scale them back in line with every other job class across the board.

Also adding subtle changes to certain jobs so that their effect as a subjob becomes nullified or reduced can bring about dramatic changes that can be applied more readily (Moving Ni to 38, for example) Of course, such a drastic change is not without huge consequences, but it is not impossible to make (Those that think it is are merely delusional)

In the end, however, change isn't going to come about as quickly as people think. Of course, it will only occur where S-E is hurting the most - their bank accounts. As more and more players leave, they will, of course, either need to figure out what made them leave in the first place or have to do a little soul searching and try to figure out what to do with the remainder that stayed behind for one reason or another.