WHM merit points: Where should they go?

[Irisjir Callard]

Actually, where should I put mine would be the most appropriate question.

Current merits:
Two levels of Max MP+
One each of Devotion, Prot5, and Shel5

Current plans:
Most likely I will cap out Max MP, and Spell Interruption. Currently those are the only two categories I have made a solid decision about.
I am not tampering with my enimity in either direction. Thought about it, turned the idea over very carefully in my head, and decided this was something I didn't want to muck with.

Of my twelve slots for combat skills, I plan to merit evasion first, then club, and possibly sheild after that.


The Questions:

Of my eight possible slots, how should I fit my magic skill merits together? I am looking at enfeebling magic very thoughtfully for this one.
Is cure skill merits worth the work to put into them, or would it only be two or three HP per cure 4 per merit?
Also, is there any practical application for raising my Enhancing Magic skill farther?
*Will raising Enhancing magic have a discernible effect on spells such as Haste, Regen, Prot/Shel, Sneak, Invis, Stoneskin, Reraise?*

*note* My enhancing magic skill is already capped. It is my only natural magical skill that has capped so far, even though I have never made any attempt to skill it up. I skill up curing magic whenever I have idle time on my hands, yet I have only recently gotten past 240 with it. You can look at this information two ways, either say "Omg gimp" and put no further thought into your response...in which case don't even bother posting your knee-jerk reaction...or you can think for a moment and realize that I just explained exactly what type of WHM I am and what spells I have use for, and what spells I tend not to need. Not to say I refuse to use the Cure family at all...just that...I rarely have the need to.


Of my ten slots for WHM-specific merits, should I even bother using any for barspell effectiveness?
I know many WHM's out there have maxed out cure casting time, how useful is this overall?
*I understand that cure casting time does not actually shorten the time spent casting, just alters the 'effect point' of the spell...so even though a 10 second cast takes effect at 7 seconds, I cannot cast something else for another 3 seconds, is this true? If this is true, is there a genuine benefit to meriting this ability, ESPECIALLY for a whitemage who resorts to cures only when forced to by heavy and rapid damage received?*

And yes, I plan to merit first and foremost of this category regen potency. The final question here;

As a whitemage who relies extraordinarily heavily on the regen trio, should I even bother meriting anything else?



Also, are there any categories I am overlooking? For example, of my attributes, mind is the only one that seems whm-slanted. On the other hand, of how much actual worth are mind+ merits with so much mind+ gear available? Perhaps +vit might be better, to reduce damage taken from AOE attacks in say, dynamsis? Or +agi for evasion boost? (yeah my evasion capped itself about 5 minutes after I hit 75... :P )


And lastly, yes, I adore soloing and meleeing, on the other hand, I am very proud of my effectiveness in the traditional back-line role, and extremely proud of the lack of deaths my PT's experience in dynamis (Currently the only endgame activity I regularly participate in...) While I am MORE than open to suggestions as to merit arrangements that will increase my soloing/meleeing power, I would rather not sacrifice party effectiveness to do so. My preferential setup is one that benefits both roles equally.

[Feenicks]

If you don't want to tinker with Enmity merits, it sounds to me like you're planning on levelling another job to 75 - quite possibly a tanking job?

In which case it's best not to merit too much for WHM. Really, outside of WHM-specific merits there's not that much that is worth meriting that'll benefit WHM as much as it might benefit other jobs. Lets break this down:

HP/MP: For WHM, MP all the way. Yes, more HP will give you better survivability and a better Devotion/Martyr but +80MP is not to be snuffed at. In my honest opinion, all mage jobs should merit MP, everyone else should merit HP.

Attributes: The only one which really affects WHM is MND, and it doesn't do much apart from giving you a Cure V which is only just barely noticable. I would save meriting attributes for another job that can really use it such as BLM or the melee of your choice.

Combat Skills: WHM will not benefit from combat skills at all unless you really desperately want to solo a lot (in which case it's generally better to level a melee job). WHM has crappy evasion to begin with and +8 Evasion isn't going to make much difference when you're fighting anything which hits hard enough to worry about getting hit. Again, it's best if you save these for another job if you're planning to level something else to 75.

Magic Skills: If WHM is the only mage job you're going to level to 75, then it might be worth meriting Enfeebling Magic to help you land Slow and Paralyze if there's no RDM around. Other than that, meriting Healing Magic and Divine Magic are wasting good merit points. An extra +16 into Enhancing Magic will up your Bar-element spells from base 86 to base 89 and, assuming a character with MND=90, raise your Stoneskin absorb rate from 310 to 326. Again, this improvement is not worth it compared to the improvements +16 Enfeebling will mean to RDM, or +16 Elemental to a BLM.

Others: Enmity decrease will help you immensely as a WHM. However, as stated, if you want to level a tank job then this can be problematic. Spell Interruption isn't really worth doing that much since the only spell you really don't want to get interrupted is a Cure spell and you have a high enough Healing Magic ability to generally not get interrupted. And even if you're still paranoid about it, it's better to macro in a Hermit's Wand for 25% Interruption Rate rather than spend nine merit points on a total of only 8%.

Job Specific: The usage varies but the common consensus is that it's worth maxing Shellra V and Barspells if you're going to fight HNMs or anything which uses nasty -ga spells which can't be blinked. Divine Seal recast and Banish potency are of very little use. Cure casting speed is worth meriting too since faster Cures can situlationally help you a lot. Regen potency has only limited use for HNMs since Regen doesn't heal HP fast enough in most cases, however personally, since I don't do HNMs that much I put four merits into Regen potency for the sake of MP efficiency.

[Irisjir Callard]

Even in dynamis, I find a constant cycle of regen helps out a lot more than cure spamming. In melee pt's, the damage they recieve is mostly AOEs, and the fact that it takes them a few minutes to come out of yellow is no big deal. In tanking pts, regen helps out PLD MP a great deal, usually runs to full effect, and gives no hate-pulling problems at all ever. The only time I ever seem to need the single-target cure batallion is when I'm in pulling pt's.

Most of the reason I decided not to tamper with enimity is because I don't really need enimity down, and, yes you got it, I may decide to level pld to 75, on the absolute opposite end of the hate spectrum.

Other than that, your information about the use of MND, cure skill, divine seal recast (Which I hadn't even thought about) merits is most useful, since at the moment I am more looking for information about what I shouldn't waste merit points on than what I mostly should.

[CalamityKate]

I'm only level 69 so I'm not talking from experience in merits, but in parties I've been in, there has been quite a number of times when someone died while a Cure III (or V) was on the way. Even if I'm reacting as fast as is humanly possible, there's still the unavoidable delay of the spellcasting time.
A few weeks ago, I managed to buy a pair of Cure Clogs for a reasonable price, and the difference has been very noticeable. -15% is just great.

All the whm group 2 merits sound nice, but Cure spellcasting time is a no-brainer. Fully merit Cure spellcasting time, no questions. It may not be useful to you everyday - and I wish it won't ! - but when the going gets rough, when your party's in a dire situation, this single stat can totally mean the difference between a full wipe and a completed KS99.

After which, Regen potency or Barspells... I guess it's a question of style. I'm a huge aficionado of Regen, but enhanced Barspells with added MDB sound great too - and preventing damage is always better than soaking it up. I think I'd still max Regen potency because it's useful in almost every situation whereas Barspells are more situational ; but it's a tough call.

[Malacite]

Too bad SE didn't allow WHM to merit cure potency....

Even @ 1-2% per merit that would just be awesome =/

[pounce321]

I finally made WHM to 75 and i am wondering when i should open Protect V. Should i wait until my enhancing skill is capped or does that not matter with enhancing magic? Right now i can benefit from using my merits in other categories for other jobs, and i would hate to make another job suffer because i used my merits in a category which i won't receive maximum effect from (the Protect V).

[Olorin401]

I finally made WHM to 75 and i am wondering when i should open Protect V. Should i wait until my enhancing skill is capped or does that not matter with enhancing magic? Right now i can benefit from using my merits in other categories for other jobs, and i would hate to make another job suffer because i used my merits in a category which i won't receive maximum effect from (the Protect V).
Protectra V is the last thing you should consider meriting in the 2nd Group. It's just not that good, and the minimal increase in defense can be found elsewhere (equipment, other merits, food). You would get more mileage from opening Devotion and Shellra V and tossing a couple merits into each.

[Icemage]

Dynamis... Regen? You must be joking. People take damage way too fast in Dynamis to do anything resembling a reguler Regen cycle. :P 120+ seconds is an eternity when enemies are hitting for 150++++ damage.

As far as WHM merits themselves:

Shellra V is great. Does a very good job at stopping additional magic damage. Extra points should be considered.

Devotion is fantastic. Definitely consider pushing this all the way to level 3 if you're a full time WHM.

Martyr is so-so. Square-Enix really needs to make this ability stronger. It's barely usable at level 1, and not more so at higher levels, since the enmity rating is so high (akin to Cure IV), and only heals 1/2 of your current HP worth of damage while damaging you for 1/4 of current HP.

Protectra V is a complete waste of time IMO. 5 extra points of defense don't mean anything at level 75, for anyone.

If you seriously like soloing on WHM, go level RDM instead. Seriously. I though soloing on WHM was fun until my RDM hit 75. Way way better. My RDM 75 can sleepwalk through most fights that my WHM can't even survive.


Icemage

[Olorin401]

Dynamis... Regen? You must be joking. People take damage way too fast in Dynamis to do anything resembling a reguler Regen cycle. :P 120+ seconds is an eternity when enemies are hitting for 150++++ damage.
Hey.. every little bit helps right? Toss the tank a Regen 3 between fights, and it does its job.

As far as the 150dmg thing.. well unless it's a MNK mob it shouldn't make much difference.. with Para/Slow 2 & Carnage Elegy keeping the attacks down so much that the Regen actually keeps up.

[Irisjir Callard]

Dynamis... Regen? You must be joking. People take damage way too fast in Dynamis to do anything resembling a reguler Regen cycle. :P 120+ seconds is an eternity when enemies are hitting for 150++++ damage.
As far as WHM merits themselves:
Shellra V is great. Does a very good job at stopping additional magic damage. Extra points should be considered.
Devotion is fantastic. Definitely consider pushing this all the way to level 3 if you're a full time WHM.
Martyr is so-so. Square-Enix really needs to make this ability stronger. It's barely usable at level 1, and not more so at higher levels, since the enmity rating is so high (akin to Cure IV), and only heals 1/2 of your current HP worth of damage while damaging you for 1/4 of current HP.
Protectra V is a complete waste of time IMO. 5 extra points of defense don't mean anything at level 75, for anyone.
If you seriously like soloing on WHM, go level RDM instead. Seriously. I though soloing on WHM was fun until my RDM hit 75. Way way better. My RDM 75 can sleepwalk through most fights that my WHM can't even survive.
Icemage

I was actually fishing for exactly your response, since of all the users here you seem to know the most about general stuff without mincing words or spreading BS.

Regen in dynamis? Indeedy my dear, and my battle cry since doing regular dynamises has been "I wish I got regenga!"

Perhaps it's just my LS'es strategy, but so far I have been in every job pt (we stratify our jobs INTENSELY) and found that nearly the same technique works beautifully.

Melee PT: Mnk sam drk etc : The only incoming damage is AOE's and stray hits. No-body keeps hate for more than one smack, and even if it IS a sound hard smack to the head, the mob's moved on. I didn't used to bank on this effect, but I've learned that I can, and do. Regen means less time on my butt and less MP spent, so I usually give all 4 other members haste, a thing I can't do in normal parties because of the MP expense. Everyone hasted means faster kills, less stray AOEs, less damage incoming, less MP outgoing, everything just runs BETTER.

Tanking PT: pld and the RARE nin : Nin seems to be a DD job in my LS, not a tank job. We usually feild about eight pld's per dynamis run, four in a pt with a rdm and a whm, one such pt in each alliance, and their job is to run all over heavens and earth kiting whatever we're not fighting at the moment. If I drop a curenuke on them, I steal their hate, and boom, I die. Not in my best interests. Let the pld cure themselves, I stick on a regen to help their MP and the RDM does the rest with refresh. When the RDM gets bummed out having to refresh 5 people (4 plds and himself, I don't need it and usually tell a busy rdm to drop me out of the cycle) I toss him a devotion. Everyone has HP and MP, and I don't eat dirt every 5 minutes.

Puller/main assist : Both individual jobs. Usually not in the same party. I've been with both, and find that curing the puller is a REALLY fast ticket to deathville. So I don't even TOUCH my cure macros with a puller in my PT until all hate has been RESOUNDINGLY diverted onto my kiting pld's and main assist. Main assist, being a nin (like the puller) really only needs a good regen once in a while and a VERY good haste at all times. I don't let haste drop on either one, ever, I will interrupt a raise or a resting cycle to recast haste. Usually I don't have a redmage if I'm with either of those, instead, I have several auxilliary ninjas for backup pulling/deathpulling/magic assist for the BLM batallion/ backup main assist incase the primary eats dirt (Only once!) Kind of fun, I get to feel important because of course both the puller and MA are very important people, but I have to say, this is also the most BORING group I can get stuck in...rather be in the pld party keeping track of everything and it's MP bar so I have something to occupy myself.

BLM batallion : blm, smn : Five heavy magical DD in pt with a bard singing ballads and lullabies. They don't need a whm, they don't get a whm, I have no idea what I would do in this pt but I imagine it would be crying from boredom.


So the bottom rundown is, the only cases where I need cures at ALL in dynamis:
1. Covering one of my plds while their MP refreshes back.
2. Dropping emergency cures on another pt whose whm ran out of mp
3. In the unlikely case the puller is about to pull again and all his HP hasn't regened and it's a long huge pull that his utsuemi and crazy off the hook evasion won't quite completely cover.






As far as your merit thoughts:

I agree, protectra isn't worth the merit points in any real way. At the same time, I have it, and here is the irony: I have it so I don't "look gimp", when I would most likely be much more pt-effective had I put the merits into almost anything else of the unsung invisible tweaks available. Protectra V is the fashion on Midgard, and maybe the lumbering masses will wake up, but for now, any whm75 who doesn't have protectra V is targeted for worse ridicule than one who say, only has 237 healing skill.

Shellra V I haven't been overly thrilled by, on the other hand, I haven't exactly been studying it, so I can't say that I care one way or the other. I'm sure if I sat down and did a sidebyside comparison, I'd have more of an opinion. Right now it's on it's first tier, just enough I can cast the spell and nobody needs to know it's at the lol stage.

Devotion turned me from a whitemage into a little god. If I could devotion myself, I would become a greater god. Alas, I think I understand why the devs say it would overpower the class. But I dream, oh I dream.

Martyr I know nothing about except that everyone says it sucks.




And lastly...RDM is one of the two jobs in the game I have sworn not to touch. I live with a career rdm-blu, on the same server, and I have discovered that even sharing a LS opens up too many avenues for us to get into serious off-the-game fights. Sharing a job, ESPECIALLY one of the two jobs he is passionate about to the point of "no honey I'm not in the mood right now I'm watching videos about a blu on blu ballista" would be more stress than the relationship could handle.

Besides, I don't solo on WHM to be good at it. I do it because I'm not SUPPOSED to be good at it, yet, I can be. Much like how some people write graffiti when they could be doing still lifes with an easel and artist brushes. Killing the fourth ulg<tabkey> range buffalo in a row without stopping to rest is my graffiti. Tis an art and nothing more nor less.

[UnnamedGalka]

For what it's worth, this is what I did with my WHM...everything I list has been capped:


Group 1:

Decrease Cure Casting Time
Increase Bar Spell Potency


Group 2:

Shellra V
Devotion


Miscellaneous: (stuff that I didn't merit strictly for WHM, but still has a major effect on it)

Increase Base MP
Increase Base Enfeebling Magic Skill


I have to say, I am very pleased with the results.

[silentsteel]

Besides, I don't solo on WHM to be good at it. I do it because I'm not SUPPOSED to be good at it, yet, I can be. Much like how some people write graffiti when they could be doing still lifes with an easel and artist brushes. Killing the fourth ulg<tabkey> range buffalo in a row without stopping to rest is my graffiti. Tis an art and nothing more nor less.


Lol, Exactly why I want to be a whm DD ;p It is possible, just takes time lol

[Irisjir Callard]

For what it's worth, this is what I did with my WHM...everything I list has been capped:
Group 1:
Decrease Cure Casting Time
Increase Bar Spell Potency
Group 2:
Shellra V
Devotion
Miscellaneous: (stuff that I didn't merit strictly for WHM, but still has a major effect on it)
Increase Base MP
Increase Base Enfeebling Magic Skill
I have to say, I am very pleased with the results.



I need to merit my enfeebling magic....it's being hell to skill up, but I want capped enfeebling and then some for those emergency sleep-bind-silence situations.

[Kyrial Arthian]

A little tip for capping your enfeebling (and divine, and healing) is to spam spells on mobs in Besieged. Just make sure you don't pick a mob with a yellow name. ;P For Enfeebling, I'd spam Dia and Dia II, for divine, Banish, Banish II, and Flash, and for healing, Cure and sometimes Cure II (obviously only on undead). This is how I got all my non-enhancing skills capped (since I didn't have Sea yet at the time to use Hpemdes), and it worked wonderfully. I averaged 5-10 levels per Besieged, which is pretty awesome.

Anyway, as for merits, I'd say go with 5 barspell, 5 regen, 3 Devotion, 3 Shellra V, and full MP eventually. Barspells are very underrated in my opinion. With AF2 legs and capped enhancing, they are already quite potent. Add in barspell potency merits, and they become awesome. You just have to know how to use them. Fighting something that likes to AoE paralyze? Throw up a Barblizzara. Fighting flies? Put up Barwatera to reduce Cursed Sphere damage. Fighting NINs in Dynamis? Put up Barfira. I've noticed huge differences doing this, and they've saved many PTs from wipes.

As for magic skills, that's really up to you. I was gonna merit divine skill just cuz I liked throwing out Banish IIIs or Holys from time to times if I had MP to burn and nothing to spend it on. Then BLU came out, I fell in love with it, and I abandoned that idea in favor of full Blue Magic skill merits. With the recent patch I can of course do more, but considering how rarely I play WHM anymore (mostly only for Limbus now), I'm just gonna leave those open for in case I decide to level another job that I could use them on.

[Amele]

for group I there's basically three ways to go (assuming you go 5/5 rather than something strange like 4/3/3) if you're an hnm whitemage, there's basically two ways to go (1 and 2)

1. barspells + curespeed (this is me)
2. barspells + regen
3. regen + curespeed (non hnm)

banish is a joke :/ although it might be a little better now that there's einherjar, the fact is that there's not enough stuff involving undead with resistances to use it on. ditto divine seal except it's even worse situationally (if DS was a 5 minute timer that could go down 12 seconds per merit, it might be worth it).

category II is more complicated: if you're in an HNM, shellra V gets 3 merits. period.
then devotion should get at least one point, the other two can be spent however.

if you're not in an hnm, at least one point in shell V is still a good idea, and you should probably put at least one point in devotion too. the other four points can be spent however.

in both cases, I personally wouldn't put any points into Protect V, but I could see spending one just to unlock the spell and shut people who don't understand defense curves up lol.

[Irisjir Callard]

in both cases, I personally wouldn't put any points into Protect V, but I could see spending one just to unlock the spell and shut people who don't understand defense curves up lol.


QFT.

People also seem to think WHM has unlimited merits for some reason...currently deciding what to do with my merits has taken a back seat to getting some.

I have managed to max out Devotion, currently pending more merit points before I make any more decisions.

[Amele]

QFT.
People also seem to think WHM has unlimited merits for some reason...currently deciding what to do with my merits has taken a back seat to getting some.
I have managed to max out Devotion, currently pending more merit points before I make any more decisions.

well, it's less that people assume that whitemage has unlimited merits and more that people misunderstand the benefits of protect vs devotion and martyr (or even shell)

examples: how often in merit are you really fighting something that has significant magic capability?

what good is a high hate cure 3.5 once every 20 minutes?

why do we need a whitemage to give people mp?

(there are of course, good answers to all of these).

the other half of that is most people just assume that, like the Tier II ancient magics, Pro V is as big a step up over Pro IV as Pro IV was over Pro III; when this simply isn't the case.

if Pro V was +20base/+10per extra defense, then it *might* be worth it. (it still wouldn't be for me but it would make the category less of a joke)

[Saren]

So its merit time for me and I’m a bit undecided. I have a few but its slow going because most of what I’m doing at the moment is CoP missions so meriting in bits of spare time through Campaign.

My plan for the whm specific merits has been to max out cure cast time, barspells, Devotion and shellra 5. I'm still a little unsure about the group one merits, I initially wanted to merit regen instead of cure cast time but Dynamis changed my mind a little, will have to wait and see what other endgame activities are like before I fully decide on that I think.


I have a question and a worry.

Question first: The +2MDB on barspell merits, is that a +2 general magic defence bonus for having a barspell on so up to a cap of +10MDB for having two barspells up? Just curious because it sounds a little too good to be true.

The worry: Being strongly recommended or outright told to get protectra 5 by other 75 whms (people who are good at their job but not as into reading up as I am) and I don’t really want to get it because maths wise, it looks awful >< and most people here have confirmed that. The only advantage I can really see to it is that it seems to have a huge range which looks handy for grabbing the people who don’t listen to gather together requests but I'm wavering over whether to get one level just to avoid hassle.

Whenever I bring up the maths of why protectra 5 is bad the most sensible response I have had back is ‘well pld need every point of defence they can get’ which I’m just not buying, 5 points is a bit under 2% of my defence at level 75 and it’s going to be a lot less than that for a pld. I guess what I’m really asking is whether anyone has experience, preferably numbers on protectra 5s lack of effectiveness?

[Icemage]

So its merit time for me and I’m a bit undecided. I have a few but its slow going because most of what I’m doing at the moment is CoP missions so meriting in bits of spare time through Campaign.

My plan for the whm specific merits has been to max out cure cast time, barspells, Devotion and shellra 5. I'm still a little unsure about the group one merits, I initially wanted to merit regen instead of cure cast time but Dynamis changed my mind a little, will have to wait and see what other endgame activities are like before I fully decide on that I think.
If you do a lot of endgame, Cure Cast time is your best friend. It will do more for you than any other merit you can invest in.

Question first: The +2MDB on barspell merits, is that a +2 general magic defence bonus for having a barspell on so up to a cap of +10MDB for having two barspells up? Just curious because it sounds a little too good to be true.
It applies only to elemental barspells, not the bar-status spells.

Even so, +4 MDB in situations where you need barspells (Bomb Toss, Stonega IV, Inferno Blast, etc.) can't be downplayed.

The worry: Being strongly recommended or outright told to get protectra 5 by other 75 whms (people who are good at their job but not as into reading up as I am) and I don’t really want to get it because maths wise, it looks awful >< and most people here have confirmed that. The only advantage I can really see to it is that it seems to have a huge range which looks handy for grabbing the people who don’t listen to gather together requests but I'm wavering over whether to get one level just to avoid hassle.
Protectra V sucks. Take it from someone who plays white mage as primary and has been playing since June 2003. ;)

I put 3 levels in Devotion, 1 level in Martyr, and 2 levels in Shellra V. I'm considering dropping 1 level of Devotion or Martyr and maxing Shellra V, but it's a tough call.

Whenever I bring up the maths of why protectra 5 is bad the most sensible response I have had back is ‘well pld need every point of defence they can get’ which I’m just not buying, 5 points is a bit under 2% of my defence at level 75 and it’s going to be a lot less than that for a pld. I guess what I’m really asking is whether anyone has experience, preferably numbers on protectra 5s lack of effectiveness?
Protectra V doesn't do anything. It's all placebo effect. Shellra V produces visible change in the damage numbers. Protecta V does not, due to the way ATK <> DEF comparisons work.


Icemage

[Saren]

Thanks Icemage that was really helpful :) I've got 2 levels of cure cast time and working on capping that first, after getting devotion unlocked it seemed like the most pressing thing to get (damn dynamis lag and general damage speed)

Take it from someone who plays white mage as primary and has been playing since June 2003. ;)

Not that I don't agree with you but this made me smile because it's exactly the reason most people have been giving me to justify the opposite point of view when I've questioned them on it :P

I've worked my way through VZX's doc and the magic damage stuff on wiki a few times and assuming I understand it correctly, the only time I can see Protectra 5 making any difference at all is when the mob has super high attack (so....HNM only?) and even then tiny tiny percentage increase in defense which won't even give you a linear damage reduction which when you compare it to Shellra 5 is just crappy.

Just wanted to make sure I haven't overlooked something basic really.

[Icemage]

Thanks Icemage that was really helpful :) I've got 2 levels of cure cast time and working on capping that first, after getting devotion unlocked it seemed like the most pressing thing to get (damn dynamis lag and general damage speed)
The lag at end-game is a big reason for why Cure Cast Time is so potent. Maxed Cure Cast Time merits make you as fast or faster than a Red Mage, which not only makes your tanks safer, but also makes it easier to manage in kiting battles.

Not that I don't agree with you but this made me smile because it's exactly the reason most people have been giving me to justify the opposite point of view when I've questioned them on it :P
Oh, no doubt.

I've worked my way through VZX's doc and the magic damage stuff on wiki a few times and assuming I understand it correctly, the only time I can see Protectra 5 making any difference at all is when the mob has super high attack (so....HNM only?) and even then tiny tiny percentage increase in defense which won't even give you a linear damage reduction which when you compare it to Shellra 5 is just crappy.

Just wanted to make sure I haven't overlooked something basic really.
You haven't missed anything. If 5 extra defense were really all that and a bag of chips, endgame paladins would be wearing Phalanx Rings (DEF +10).

A better example would be Defender. How much damage difference do you actually see when a PLD/WAR at endgame uses Defender (answer: not so very much)? That's a +25% boost to DEF, which for a Paladin is likely going to end up being maybe 100 points, and yet they still take lots of damage.

Ask your friendly neighborhood Blue Mage how much difference Coccoon does for their damage against IT++ enemies (answer: it helps a little, but not much).

The trouble isn't so much that Defense is bad; it's that the level differential at endgame ends up making DEF a much smaller part of the damage formula than the fact that the enemy is level 90+. When there's a 15+ level difference between you and what's hitting you, 5 DEF pales into insignificance.

MDEF from Shellra V, on the other hand, is a much more consistent defense against magic damage, and in an area where players normally have little to no defense to begin with.


Icemage

[Olorin401]

I'll hafta agree with Icemage on this one. Protectra V isn't really worth pumping in a bunch of merits. I did at the very least open it up though.

I also had level 3 Regen Potency for a long time, but that was before I got Cleric's Briault and got heavy into endgame stuff. I rolled those back and put them into Barspell merits instead.

My current WHM-related merits:

5 Barspell Effect
5 Cure Cast Time
1 Protectra V
3 Shellra V
1 Martyr
1 Devotion
2 MP
3 Enfeebling Magic

[Malacite]

A better example would be Defender. How much damage difference do you actually see when a PLD/WAR at endgame uses Defender (answer: not so very much)? That's a +25% boost to DEF, which for a Paladin is likely going to end up being maybe 100 points, and yet they still take lots of damage.

Ask your friendly neighborhood Blue Mage how much difference Coccoon does for their damage against IT++ enemies (answer: it helps a little, but not much).


QFT, and something I'm sure all of us would like to see changed.

Personally, my vote goes towards Regen Potency and either Barspells or Cure Speed.

[Temagori]

:
HP/MP: For WHM, MP all the way. Yes, more HP will give you better survivability and a better Devotion/Martyr but +80MP is not to be snuffed at. In my honest opinion, all mage jobs should merit MP, everyone else should merit HP.


I just don't see why anyone in their right mind would merit HP... Unelss maybe you are a PLD. Maybe it is my biast towards jobs with MP, but I find MP merits help universally with the fact that many people sub mages for soloing.

Even if you don't sub a mage it boosts dramatically any actual mage job, especially in the early levels. HP seems like a waste to me from a 75WHM standpoint. 10mp = 1 Cure 30MP= 1 Cure II 80MP= Lots of curing lol

[Malacite]

I just don't see why anyone in their right mind would merit HP... Unelss maybe you are a PLD. Maybe it is my biast towards jobs with MP, but I find MP merits help universally with the fact that many people sub mages for soloing.

Yay necro post.

DRK can merit HP too to get a little more umph out of Soul Eater and Dread Spikes, and MNKs for their Melee Attire. Some Taru SMNs merit too for survivability. Other than that yah HP merits aren't generally so hot outside of end game PLD and DRK.

[Callisto]

I guess since someone else made the necro I'll chip in with this:

Order of the Blue Gartr &bull; View topic - Cure Cast Time - Detailed Testing (Updated:4/30/08) (http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33224)

From what I can tell in regards to Cure Cast Time merits, there seems to be a sort of tiered system where certain %'s of casting time reduction actually have a noticeable effect(I was a little fuzzy on this part, but the OP is supposed to add more info to clear that up soon)...the short end of it being that with the new hotness that is /SCH, only having 2 Cure Cast Time merits + Cure Clogs would see the same effect as full Cure Cast Time merits(I believe this is without Loq/Marduk body), meaning you can save 3 merit slots for Regen effect.

I'm not a WHM so I'm not sure what to make of it, but if you're interested there's that.

[Saren]

Why make a new thread when there's already one on the forum that's exactly what you are looking for?

I was reading this the other week actually and slightly fuzzy on the details aswell from what the poster said.

I think I might have to get some of these and play around a bit. The only thing that slightly worries me about the whole method is that the only time I'm seriously worried about getting off fast cures is when I'm lagged and lots of gear swapping when I'm laggy doesn't always work so well.

[Feenicks]

I just don't see why anyone in their right mind would merit HP... Unelss maybe you are a PLD. Maybe it is my biast towards jobs with MP, but I find MP merits help universally with the fact that many people sub mages for soloing.

Even if you don't sub a mage it boosts dramatically any actual mage job, especially in the early levels. HP seems like a waste to me from a 75WHM standpoint. 10mp = 1 Cure 30MP= 1 Cure II 80MP= Lots of curing lol
Actually since I've posted that, I've kind of changed my stance a little. I've actually put four merits into HP and four into MP. I have quite a lot of HP+ gear as well as MP+ and the extra HP not only helps you stay alive a bit longer but also gives you better results for Devotion, Martyr and Sublimation. Sublimation is particularly important because the more MP you can get out of that the better. These days Max MP as a WHM isn't as important as it used to be because there are so many ways of recovering your MP quickly.

Also it's fun having 1000+ HP as a taru mage.

[Icemage]

Actually since I've posted that, I've kind of changed my stance a little. I've actually put four merits into HP and four into MP. I have quite a lot of HP+ gear as well as MP+ and the extra HP not only helps you stay alive a bit longer but also gives you better results for Devotion, Martyr and Sublimation. Sublimation is particularly important because the more MP you can get out of that the better. These days Max MP as a WHM isn't as important as it used to be because there are so many ways of recovering your MP quickly.

Also it's fun having 1000+ HP as a taru mage.
I merited HP as my primary, as a Tarutaru. Primarily to balance out my HP/MP totals on RDM, but the the extra 70HP I get from it can mean the difference between dying and not dying from time to time on WHM.

I wouldn't really recommend +HP for non-tank non-Tarutarus though.


Icemage

[Saren]

I was reading the research Callisto posted again this morning because he’s recently done a little update to the numbers and got a bit involved with the maths.

All credit for the research (which can be found here (http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33224)) to Kuuhalee.


Sum up from Kuuhalee s post



There appears to be a cap at 50% on (Cure) Cast Time Reduction.

Cure III through Cure V cast times work on a tier system. The first tier is 17% Cast Time Reduction and the second tier is at 35% Cast Time Reduction.

Curaga I appears to have a single tier somewhere between 48-50% Cast Time Reduction.



Cures

These are a quick sum up of his original test numbers for those who are interested. There appears to be almost no variation within the tiers so it’s really only worth adding cure cast time reduction for cures if you know you can hit the next tier.

Cure 3/4/5: with 10% and under cast time reduction ~ 2.5 seconds
with 20-30% cast time reduction ~ 2.1 seconds (1st tier)
with 35%-52% cast time reduction ~ 1.7 seconds (2nd tier)



Curagas


Unfortunately he didn’t put up all the 0-50% numbers for higher tier curagas so I’m not sure the pattern repeats but going to assume that it does because Kuuhalle has a good testing style and I think he would have mentioned a difference if there was one. From his numbers:


Cast time reduction : cast time (sec) : reduction on base cast time

0% : 4.545 : 0%
10% : 4.190 : 7.8%
20% : 3.742 : 17.7%
30% : 3.290 : 27.6%
35% : 2.965 : 34.8%
37% : 2.861 : 37.1%
47% : 2.858 : 37.1%
52% : 2.530 : 44.3%



There is definitely a tier between 47% and 52% but the pre 37% results are very interesting too. If you look at the projected reduction % compared to the actual % reduction resulting: going from 0 to 10% cast time reduction translates to only a 7.8% actual reduction but going from 30-35% translates to an actual reduction of 7.2%.

This suggests that cure cast time down is increasingly helpful as you get closer 37% until you actually hit it when it acts as a sort of soft cap and more doesn't help you until you hit the tier at 48-50ish.

Assuming that higher curagas work the same way means the difference between 37% and 48-50% for all curagas (I – IV) is ~ 6% of the cast time or ~0.3 seconds. It varies a little because unlike cure 3-5 the curaga cast times increase a little as you go up the line of spells.


Conclusions (assuming higher tier curagas follow the curaga 1 pattern)


Cure clogs and a Loquatious earring are good purchases for all whms and Marduk's body (required to hit the curaga tier) starts to look more interesting

17% cure cast time reduction: (can me reached with just cure clogs and a Loquatious, no merits or /sch needed)
Tier 1 for cures – 0.4 seconds off your cast times, further reduction will have no effect until you hit the next tier.
~0.8 seconds off your curaga cast times, futher reduction will continue to help your curagas.

35-37% cure cast time reduction: (if not /sch, requires min of 4 (5 without marduk's) cure cast time merits, if /sch requires min of 1 (2 without marduk's) cure cast time merit)
35% is Tier 2 for cures – 0.8 second cast time reduction, further reduction will have no effect.
37% Soft cap for curagas - ~1.7 seconds off your curaga cast times, further reduction will have no effect until you hit the tier

48-50% cure cast time reduction: (only accessible with /sch, max cure cast time merits and Marduk's):
No improvement for cures
Tier for curaga - ~2 seconds off your curaga cast times


Getting to 35-37% definitely seems to be the magic range here.

If you are whm/blm or whm/smn generally then max cure cast time merits are still very attractive, they are the only way you can hit 35% without a Marduks.

If you are whm/sch generally then you seem to have 2 choices:

1. Go for max cure cast time so you can hit the curaga tier when /sch and keep your tier 2 cures when you have to go /blm or /smn etc.

2. Just get two cure cast time merits to get you up to 35% reduction (with light arts, cure clogs and Loquatious) which is the tier 2 on cures and close to the soft cap on curagas (you lose ~0.1 second), miss out on the curaga tier and lose your tier 2 cures when going /blm or /smn etc but frees up 3 merits for regen.


I’m not decided yet to be honest. I tend to have /sch welded on to my whm 99% of the time which definitely makes dropping to 2 cure cast time merits a temptation. I think I could live without a ~0.3 second improvement in my curaga cast times and 3 regen merits is pretty nice for quite a few things. That being said dropping cure cast time merits does make it impossible to reach 37% without /sch which is a fairly big downside if you are soloing or have to go /blm or /smn for some reason.

[ItachiKujata]

You'd pretty much have to be /SCH all the time then if you're not going to fully merit cure cast time... whether that's worth it to put into regen or not is up to your play style... personally I have cleric body and didn't see the point of regen merits in my current style of play.

[Saren]

Pretty sure I will stick with maxing out cure cast time merits even though I /sch for almost everything. Being able to hit 35% reduction irrespective of subjob is too nice to pass up. I love regen for exp and sky farming etc but I don't really need a more powerful regen. I do now have a fairly compelling reason to go try for a Salvage LS though.

I'm not sure how the whole juggling marduk body (assuming you can get one) and Nobles around so you get the cast bonus and your 10% cure potency would work though, 0.3 seconds off the casting time is definitely not worth losing 10% potency. I think it's something like cast time is decided at the start of the casting and potency is decided at the end but thats 'something I remember reading somewhere' knowledge so not sure how reliable that is.

PS: Thanks StarvingArtist for the gear listings :) My brain died a little when I got to that part.

PPS: You can get even more cast time down with /rdm but I left it off because when are you honestly going to /rdm for anything.

[Callisto]

2. Just get two cure cast time merits to get you up to 35% reduction (with light arts, cure clogs and Loquatious) which is the tier 2 on cures and close to the soft cap on curagas (you lose ~0.1 second), miss out on the curaga tier and lose your tier 2 cures when going /blm or /smn etc but frees up 3 merits for regen.

I'm not a WHM, but still I couldn't imagine something being more beneficial that this setup, Cure Clogs aren't super difficult to get, and Loq is steadily becoming easier to obtain as well. I hate saying that any subjob is the end-all be-all for any job, but /SCH really is stupidly nice for WHM, unless you're in dire need of Escape from a WHM I can't think of any other reason to sub something different for normal WHM play, and if you're /NIN meleeing or something for fun, you're probably in a situation where shaving that extra second off of your Cure cast times aren't a huge deal.

[Icemage]

I'm not a WHM, but still I couldn't imagine something being more beneficial that this setup, Cure Clogs aren't super difficult to get, and Loq is steadily becoming easier to obtain as well. I hate saying that any subjob is the end-all be-all for any job, but /SCH really is stupidly nice for WHM, unless you're in dire need of Escape from a WHM I can't think of any other reason to sub something different for normal WHM play, and if you're /NIN meleeing or something for fun, you're probably in a situation where shaving that extra second off of your Cure cast times aren't a huge deal.
There's cases where WHM/BLM trumps WHM/SCH, but they're few and far between. Elemental Seal + Repose is a perfectly valid tactic in cases where dark-based Sleeps won't work very well.

As for Cure Clogs, I wanted very much to like them. I farmed Bonnacon personally for about a week and a half to get a pair, and was crushed to find out that they actually weren't very beneficial.

Nowadays, you'd have to pry my Herald's Gaiters out of my cold, dead Tarutaru fingers. Failing that, Rostrum Pumps are still better.


Icemage

[Callisto]

As for Cure Clogs, I wanted very much to like them. I farmed Bonnacon personally for about a week and a half to get a pair, and was crushed to find out that they actually weren't very beneficial.

I'm currently 0/9 over the course of the last month trying to get them for my g/f, I've gotten a total of 3 Buffalo Meats and 1 hide in those 9 kills, lol.

Kind of amusing at least, one night I was farming him and g/f didn't want to cook dinner even though it was her night to, I got to use the line "I've been slaving over hot Buffalo for 3 hours for you!" as leverage.

Regarding Rostrums, really I guess that's a min/max deal, I would assume the ideal would be cast cures in Clogs then swap Blessed feet for potency/recast, cast everything else in Rostrums...but that's also how I'd play WHM, I don't know if I necessarily expect my g/f to go hardcore with min/maxing macros, lol. I've always felt that Rostrums are a bit of a turd, the recast reduction is less than NQ Blessed and the casting reduction is barely noticeable, especially if many other spells are set up in some sort of tiered form of cast time reduction similar to how the Cures appear to be.

[TheGrandMom]

Kind of amusing at least, one night I was farming him and g/f didn't want to cook dinner even though it was her night to, I got to use the line "I've been slaving over hot Buffalo for 3 hours for you!" as leverage.



LOL Priceless!

As for merits in cure cast time, absolutely a must in my book. Regen merits, not worth it. In endgame, the stuff hitting the tank hits for way more than a silly regen 3 is going to help. I use my regens religiously but don't think they are worth meriting. Now for merit parties, yes that would be a nice touch. So in the end I guess it depends on how you are going to use it.

EDIT:



Nowadays, you'd have to pry my Herald's Gaiters out of my cold, dead Tarutaru fingers.

LOL Never gonna see this in my FFXI lifetime.....hell even in irl lifetime! :rofl:

[Saren]

Nowadays, you'd have to pry my Herald's Gaiters out of my cold, dead Tarutaru fingers. Failing that, Rostrum Pumps are still better.


Icemage

Mmmmmm Herald's Gaiters but so far out of my reach right now.

Sorry but screw rostrum pumps, they are drastically over rated for what they do for you. I still need a pair (map mp build, regens, enfeebling) but they aren't the gods gift to whm feet that people make them out to be.

If I can find that post about the whole when cast/recast time is calculated and when potency is caulculated and I can crowbar the alterations into my macro setup then I will be swapping them as Callisto said, cure clogs for speed, blessed for potency and -enmity.

Callisto: as people have been saying regen is lovely and whms tend to use it as much as they can but for a lot of things it's just not practical. It's either dangerous because of the long cast time or worthless because of the tendancy towards overcuring in endgame. If regen merits gave a cast time reduction instead of extra hp/tick then that 2 cure cast time build might be more drawing me more.

/blm is useful for a lot of missions and I would rather make sure I can hit that 35% when I do have to go /blm than build exclusively for /sch and be slightly crippled by changing subs plus I do use curaga quite lot in endgame and merit parties and though I don't need that 0.3 seconds it would be cool.

[Callisto]

Out of curiosity, Divine Seal timer is a merittable option is it not? 3 merits in that would shave a full minute off, that might be nice for Divine Veil if nothing else, since you'll have exactly 3 slots leftover. If 3 extra Cure Cast Time merits would be for the most part wasted for the 90% of the time you were on /SCH, and 3 Regen would only be marginally useful at best, would DS timer not be somewhat useful? I know that one of the hugest bitching points I hear from WHM is the 10 minute timer on AoE status cures.

I can say that with 1 minute shaved off of Convert it's definitely noticeable in larger fights, but DS is of course not exactly as dynamic as Convert in most situations.

As far as /BLM, really I don't see anything past possibly CoP 8-3 that you'd really need your WHM able to ES Sleep/Repose something as a critical part of winning the fight. That's what BLMs and RDMs are for, and most things that are only sleepable with Light-based are generally stupidly prone to forms of it, I really cannot think of one you'd need ES for unless your Divine Skill is terribly gimped.

[Saren]

It's meritable but.....meh. The only reason you hear whms bitching about it so much is because sch can pull one of our 'post 37 ooo exclusive reward for taking the job seriously' tricks 10 levels earlier than we do and can do it more often (ten times as often by the time they hit 70) which is just slightly into taking the piss territory. Part of me is really starting to hate bits of accession. I mean it would be nice if we could do it more often but it's not something I spend hours grouching over and it would take more than a 1 minute reduction to get me excited about it. I would rather go for regen than divine seal if I wasn't going to max cure cast time.

edit: I've not gone /blm for ES + repose, only ever for ES + sleepga like CoP 8-3

1 minute off your convert timer is what though? an extra 1000mp ever 90 minutes? 1 minute off a divine seal timer is a maximum of 81 mp saved every 90 minutes if you are using it for status removes and you only get that if you have to do a full 5 extra single erases ontop of the one you would have AoEed. You actually get slightly less mp back from it if you use that extra charge in 90 minutes to convert a curaga 3 into a curaga 4 ><

[Kirbster]

I didn't want to start a new thread, but If i wanted to merit my WHM for endgame activites (I have RDM for merit parties), which merits would work best?

I'm under the impression that:
Cure cast 5/5
Barspell 5/5
Devotion 5/5
Shellra V 5/5

would be best for an endgame WHM.

Any suggestions welcome. :)

[Olorin401]

I didn't want to start a new thread, but If i wanted to merit my WHM for endgame activites (I have RDM for merit parties), which merits would work best?

I'm under the impression that:
Cure cast 5/5
Barspell 5/5
Devotion 5/5
Shellra V 5/5

would be best for an endgame WHM.

Any suggestions welcome. :)
Been thinking this out myself as I gather some more merit points.. Here's what I have & what I plan to do:

Cure Cast 5/5 (maxed)
Barspells 5/5 (maxed)
Total 10/10 (maxed)
---------------------------
Devotion 2/5 (Increase to 3/5)
Protectra V 1/5
Shellra V 3/5 (Increase to 5/5)
Martyr 1/5

I thought about going the 5/5 Devotion route, but just having P5 at the first tier is fine and I've come to really love Martyr - a 0MP cure bomb with seemingly no emnity is always useful in an emergency, tho I've started using it more often since getting sub-SCH (I'm in the job ability menu a lot more.. heh)

[Callisto]

I think Martyr is at least worth unlocking b/c it's a great 'ohshit' ability, I honestly don't think Protectra V is worth unlocking aside from not wanting to look awkward casting Pro IV but Shell V. The increase in Defense is marginal at best, and in terms of actual damage taken by party members it wouldn't even be noticeable.

Shellra V is awesome, get level 2 at the minimum, but higher is nice for tanks who haven't been able to quite pimp out their Magic damage reduction sets. Devotion is hot sex on a fucking biscuit, max it out, and when I log on tonight I'm going to harrass Olo in /t's until he does the same. ^^b

Edit: In regards to 5/5 Cure Cast Time merits, check the top of this page and I think the one before it too, with the advent of /SCH and new info on Cure casting time tiers, depending on how you play WHM you can specifically set it up to only need about 2 Cure Cast Time merits with Cure Clogs and /SCH, allowing you to free up some merits for other stuff...the debate is on if any of the other stuff is really useful, though.

[Olorin401]

....and when I log on tonight I'm going to harrass Olo in /t's until he does the same. ^^b
:eek: /away until Rona gets peeved at me (again)

Yes I agree that the def+ from Protectra V is negligible. (Personally, I wish Protect strength was scaled by MND in a way similar to Cure potency, with Pro5 being uncapped and extra merits adding a bonus multiplier) Still I just like having it around for the bling value. Is it worth getting rid of to have a 10 min Devotion timer? Probably.

[Kirbster]

Hmm, I'm shifting more towards Regen merits now, It's one of WHM's key spells.

And as stupid as it sounds, If i want faster cure casting speed, that's what my RDM is for heh.


I'm sticking with 5/5 Devotion and 5/5 Shellra V tho, i think. I'm a bit far off to be thinking about merits, but hey, I'm bored at work lol.

[Callisto]

You want to at least hit the minimum tiers of cure casting time, it really does make a difference in terms of getting that big Cure V off when you need to. Regen merits are nice for merit parties, farming, and lowmanned kited fights or other things where MP efficiency and enmity reduction is better than getting people cured right a way, but for normal straight tanking at endgame many times you don't really have the luxury of relying on Regen as much as Cure V.

[Kirbster]

Well that's the kind of advice i was looking for lol. I haven't done any endgame yet, unless you count dynamis or lolsky.