Can PLD/DRK work in exp parties?

[IfritnoItazura]

I'm think Lv.74+, with Refresh and Haste in a party (planning on BRD, WHM, and RDM backline), using PLD/DRK to tank.

Can this combination work? Seems to have enough enmity tools: Flash, Stun, Sentinel, Rampart, Soul Eater, and Last Resort. (Little things like Shield Bash, Bind, and Sleep can help as well, though probably not needed.) I want to try this instead of PLD/WAR, in hopes of letting the DD's go crazy(ier).

I'd have 200 MP every 2 minute and 24 seconds from Refresh and Auto-Refresh, plus whatever from Parade Gorget, pre-Chivalry merit. With Flash and Stun both 25 MP, assuming I'd have enough Haste from spell and gear to use Flash and Stun every 30 seconds, I should still have 50+ MP leftover.

In a way, the question is "Which way buys more enmity for 75 MP? As cures? Or as three Stuns?" Is losing Warcry, Double Attack and Defender a good trade for enmity from Soul Eater and Last Resort?

Has anyone tried this? I'm eying the Sky's Weapons for roaming, for which I'd have a BRD guaranteed, and should be able to get a WHM and RDM as well. As soon as™ I have Sky access, that is. >_>;

[Sevv]

i saw a thread in which people were tesed this out let me see if I can find and link it for you

http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18888

there may be all of like 2 good response from xav who actually tried it most of its flames or dumb shit. Best i can find for now. See if i cant find a real test for you.

[Armando]

I guess it depends on how quickly the mobs die, but it could be done. Don't dismiss Bind and Sleep, though. They give a lot of hate for very little MP (Bind in particular is stupidly cheap) and you should definetely be using them on a regular basis. Blind, too, if you think you need it.

The real question is, though: "Will PLD/DRK get the party more EXP than PLD/RDM or PLD/NIN?" PLD/RDM takes less damage simply because of Phalanx, and PLD/NIN hardly takes damage (but then again, PLD/NIN is more for bouncing hate around in a "tankless" TP burn than for actual main tanking.)

[Celeal]

IMHO, on paper, I think DRK/PLD maybe work better than PLD/DRK (I know it sounds weird):

With PLD/DRK, most of the spell from DRK will not be able to land on exp. mob. (However, the hate of the resisted spells should be about the same)

With DRK/PLD, you can have Absorb-VIT, Absorb-STR... Drain, Drain II, which can used for damage migration. Those Absorb spells can generate a decent amount of hate too. With DRK/PLD, you will miss Rampart, but you still have Flash, Auto-Refresh, Cures, Shield Bash, Sentinel, Cover.

For weapons, besides G.Sword and Scrythe, DRK/PLD can use a lot of good swords and Shields too. For armor, DRK has access to decent tanking gear (at least for those that can be found in AH).

For damage output and hate, on paper DRK/PLD has a lot of tools, from WS, to JA, to Job Traits, to magic.

[Armando]

I don't know. DRK has no native shield skill, so while it does have Size 3 shields, it shouldn't be able to compete with a PLD's A+ and AF-modified shielding proc rate. They also don't have as much +Enmity, and if they DO equip sword/axe + shield, then they lose a lot of hit rate as well. Yeah, they do get Flash, but at half-capped skill it's going to get resisted (whereas Stun's duration isn't anywhere nearly as important, as long as it can stun spells and WS, which it will.) They could certainly hold hate, but they'd also take more damage.

[Necropolis]

A friend of mine is rather bummed about the lack of tanking in higher level parties as well. He goes the normal pld/war and tries to hold hold, but even with +28 enmity from gear and merits he can't hold hate long at all.

I would be less concerned about hate tools in parties, and just focus on what you can do to up your damage output. Pld/nin is a know combo that can work, and we often us it to take gods and such, and I've partied with number of them in merit parties that work out alright.

As for pld/drk, I would expect many of the spells to get resisted, but I could see a lot of good from soul eater+vorpal or what ever WS of choice plds use now. And you have MP to cure yourself so you wouldn't be a drain on the healers MP. Personally I'd throw defense out the window and go all out damage.

But I would say as said above, would pld/drk do better for the party than pld/war or pld/nin as a DD. As my friend experiments a bit more with pld/drk I'll let you know what he finds.

[Sevv]

Pld/drk Stun spam with hast gear very much like nin/drks function and with more hate on them it may work out. If ne one on ifrit wants to test this out ill help can even test against a "fafnir" or "aspid" i got 99 seals to burn to give it some harder tests.

[Lmnop]

with a decent amount of haste, it seems like /drk would net you higher enmity gain than /nin, but less damage negated (though plausibly more than /war). Basically, just try to time your Stuns to right before the mob's next attack, so it resets it far enough that you get hit like once before Flash is up again. Flash seems to last close to 15 seconds unresisted. Paladins always say 2-3 swings. Well, 3 swings would be at least 12 seconds on a normal mob. Carnage Elegy is +50% slow. Since you'll have a Bard guaranteed, you're looking at 2 swings/flash (assuming they last that long and assuming you evade), with 25% haste (spell + a single march), you'd be at what? 34 second recasts for stun/flash? By swing number 3 -- around 2 seconds before the 3rd swing (that's 16 seconds after Flash), you Stun. You would end up getting hit 2-3 more times. Hopefully one of those would be a shield block.

Not only would Souleater -> Weapon skill be a crap-ton of hate, you just lost so much health that you'll probably double your enmity just curing yourself back up. I would not suggest using Souleater except for right after using Flash.

Last Resort could be nice - particularly if you're eating defense food. mainly because case a) paladins pretty much always cancel Berserk while you could let LR run it's course or at least not feel as bad about turning it off and case b) LR generates significantly more enmity just by activating it than Berserk ever will. In fact, I believe it's activation spike is much larger than Souleater's.

EDIT: I'd like to toss in that @50% haste (2x march, spell, 3/5 homam, wal turban, swift belt would be 48% - close enough), you would get hit once/routine (when Flash decides to be reliable). And if you're lucky/good/have plain ol' Slow stuck on as well as Elegy, you could sneak in your Flash right before that swing comes in too.

That would be 50 mp/22 seconds. 150 MP/minute isn't exactly sustainable. You will have 80, 100, or 120 mp/minute coming your way. Likely 100 (exping in Sky), but you'll have Signet for resting to get an extra 10-20/minute (if you can find the time to kneel).

[Celeal]

I agree that damage migration is important. Indeed, both hate control and damage migration need to be considered.

However, damage migration enters the equation if and only if the character is under the mobs attack (except AoE attacks). IMHO, the prior for a tank should be:

1st: Holding hate.
2nd: Damage migration.

The amount of damage migration that a tank needs, is determined by damage output of the mob, tank's hate control, and how fast the mob dies.

As for rate of shield proc, I don't see any noticeable difference between shield skill and proc rate. On the other hand, I can see some different with AGI+ (shield skill caps faster), and a very noticeable difference with shield size.

If DRK/PLD's shield is not functioning, then the DRK/PLD can go back to G.Sword or Scrythe... or maybe Break-WS from G.Axe too, Full-Break and Absorb-TP sound interesting ^^;

As for Enmity+, I think gear more towards DD may be an alternative (a mix of Enmity+/DD/tank)

[Weeeekujata]

if you have good DD's, the mob will die quick enough not to warrent /drkfor "hate" in a xp pt off deco.

if your DD are meh, /war with enimity does fine.

personally for deco i go /nin with full DD gear

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. I don't think I will be using Stun to...er, stun monsters' TP moves. Giving up /WAR means giving up Provoke, and there's no point to /DRK if I can't out do the enmity provided by Provoke every 30 seconds. If I go with PLD/DRK (which is a long way off, yet), it'd be Flash and Stun at the start of every fight.

with a decent amount of haste, it seems like /drk would net you higher enmity gain than /nin, but less damage negated (though plausibly more than /war)

I don't think PLD/DRK would mitigate damage noticeably better than PLD/WAR. With double Flash rotation, WHM main healer, and fast dying monsters, though, I'm not sure if I care about that. :biggrin:


Not only would Souleater -> Weapon skill be a crap-ton of hate, you just lost so much health that you'll probably double your enmity just curing yourself back up. I would not suggest using Souleater except for right after using Flash.

Actually, I'd have a lot of options on that; can Stun after WS before canceling Souleater. Sentinel or Rampart are also good for keep up Souleater, besides Flash.

Not sure if I want to keep up Souleater, though. Losing 2 HP for every 1 point added to damage doesn't seem like a great deal.

Last Resort could be nice - particularly if you're eating defense food. mainly because case a) paladins pretty much always cancel Berserk while you could let LR run it's course or at least not feel as bad about turning it off and case b) LR generates significantly more enmity just by activating it than Berserk ever will. In fact, I believe it's activation spike is much larger than Souleater's.

Does Berserk activation add any noticeable enmity?! lol. But, yes, Last Resort is quite good for what I have in mind.

Defense food is probably out, though; don't think anything can match Dorado Sushi for Sky weapons at Lv.74+.

[IfritnoItazura]

I guess it depends on how quickly the mobs die, but it could be done. Don't dismiss Bind and Sleep, though. They give a lot of hate for very little MP (Bind in particular is stupidly cheap) and you should definetely be using them on a regular basis. Blind, too, if you think you need it.

I understand what you mean by Bind and Sleep; I've tanked on low level DRK before, and managed to keep the pre-TA THF alive. v^_^; Bind, Sleep, and Drain were definitely useful for tanking then. (Blind would be nice, but DRK doesn't have it.)

Just that I don't think I'd need them with Stun, Flash, and the job abilities available; the leftover MP should probably go to Cures. (Will have them macro'ed before attempting PLD/DRK anyway, of course.)

[Armando]

Oh, ok. If you have a double Flash rotation, your damage taken wouldn't be too high. In an ideal setup you'd have a 75 RDM/PLD for a three Flash rotation, but that's probably not an option. Either way, try to get as much Haste as you reasonably can, same for the WHM. Flash lasts 12-13 secs unresisted, and with the Haste spell alone, you have a recast of 36 secs. If both you and the WHM have the Haste spell and you alternate Flashes well, you'll be covered 2/3 of the time, but if you have Haste gear you can push that even lower.

[Raydeus]

If it wasn't because how gimped Aspir and Drain (and all Dark based spells for that matter) are without native skill I think /DRK would be nice.

Even RDM with native skill using dark spellls as /DRK or /BLM are really weak against VT+ mobs, and using Elemental seal if aviable isn't that good either. So that leaves a good chunk of what would make /DRK really work out of the question. :worry:


Offtopic Edit > Hey Armando where's Anemone >.< Or at least tell me the name of that anime so I can go watch it. :P

[Armando]

I thought it was about time for a change of pace. I was gonna change my icon to Roll, but then I found that pic and I couldn't help myself. It's not an anime, it's actually a Nickelodeon cartoon called Avatar: the Last Airbender. Personally I've only seen about one episode, it doesn't seem half bad but I'll reserve judgement in favor or against it since I've seen so little. The art is pretty good, though, and you gotta love ass-kicking, barefoot, rock-smashing lolitas.

If there's enough demand I might bring Anemone back. But not before I give Roll a chance in the spotlight ;3

EDIT: Oh, but do check out Lucky Star (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/Doval/1178268546978.jpg). Made by Kyoto Animation, same people who did Haruhi. Very clear influences. Adorable chibi-style high school girl shenanigans.

And just because I can... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/Doval/1174898348176.jpg) </derail>

[IfritnoItazura]

Oh, ok. If you have a double Flash rotation, your damage taken wouldn't be too high. In an ideal setup you'd have a 75 RDM/PLD for a three Flash rotation, but that's probably not an option.

Hmm. There is a RDM with /PLD ready in my LS...

* * *

Something I just thought of; there's not much point in pushing /recast time much lower with extreme Haste, unless I can comfortably get in two rotation of Flash + Stun per fight, and still have both ready right after the monster dies.

For roaming camp, there's less than 10 seconds (if that long) between old monster death to new monster engage, and each monster shouldn't last all that long.

Seems like I need to rethink this a little.

Primary enmity JA's (Sentinel, Rampart, Souleater, and Last Resort) all together is about 0.76 JA every minute. That means a PLD/DRK can expend less than 1 JA every minute.

If each Decorative Weapon lasts about 30 to 40 seconds (a wild guess, including time to reach it), then a PLD/DRK cannot expend 1 JA every fight, at least not one of the primary ones. It's doubtful one set of Flash + Stun can hold the monster for its lifetime; Flash + Stun + JA is probably the minimum needed.

So, looks like the secondaries (Shield Bash, mostly) and the the expanded spell set (i.e. Bind and Sleep) will have to play a role, as well as Cures. Darn.

I have to really make sure I get TP for WS's to help out with JA shortages as well.

* * *

Where Haste really helps is with the occasional short fights where too many people use WS, and the monster dies very fast. Getting both in at the beginning of every fight is my goal...

[Armando]

Could try doing Flash + Stun + JA on one fight, Flash + Stun + Bind + Sleep on the next, and alternate that way. Also, if you can get a 3-Flash rotation to work, as long as all three Flashers have the Haste spell on, the mob will be Flashed all the time. At that point you can just say "to hell with it" and DD. In theory, at least.

[Lmnop]

your tp should come at such a rate that you WS in the fights you wouldn't JA anyway. Also, about what I was talking about before: Do Stun right off the bat instead of Flash, just to piss him off. This also makes it so you could do Flash 3 seconds later, and still plausibly set the mob back an attack. You can work on the timing, but the idea is to try to get the most use out of both spells. "Just the enmity" is ok for Stun, but using any other means of damage mitigation in tandem with Flash is a waste of resources. Just Stun+Flash should net enough hate for 30 seconds or at least a 700 damage WS.

Sentinel has the hate-increasing attribute to it. Between that and it's incredible damage reduction, Sentinel fights become mp-breathers. What Armando said is a good idea, though I still worry about mp consumption.

Still, I think it could work.

EDIT: Felt compelled to add that I forgot earlier that Homam legs have Fast Cast. So even in my 48% haste example, you'd actually hit the 49.5% for spells (according to FFXIclopedia).