Endgame exp / merit parties for WHM

[Lanih]

At first I want to warn you, that this will probably turn out to be a huge rant. Right now I'm pretty much exhausted from exp grinding and I probably should go to sleep instead of writing this, but I need to get this thing out of my head. Forgive me for the possible errors and such in advance.

I'm currently about halfway through lv70, and I kind of have mixed emotions about the future of my WHM career. I could use a little pep-talk. Since ToAU came out, TP-burn parties seem to have become a huge trend, and there lies the reason why I'm so irked right now. The thing is, as you probably know, that there isn't much space for WHM:s [and certain other jobs] in those parties. Sure, invites might come, but those are exceptions only.

Burn-parties can get numbers like ~17k per hour on a constant basis, whereas the traditional pt-setups have to settle for less. And yes, even jobs like BRD:s and WAR:s can end up in a traditional setup, but I'm thinking in their case it's the exception <.<

And to the point. I like WHM. I don't hate any aspect of the job, though I like some things more than others. I don't want to level some job I don't even like, just to get merits.

How is this fair? Some jobs take three times the amount of work and sweating to get to the same point than other jobs, when it comes to meriting.

You could argue, that maybe I don't love WHM enough to spend three times more energy to get even with my NIN/BRD/whathaveyou friends, but it's not that... I'm ready to spend more time and energy, because I know it will benefit my LS, but is it fair? No, it's just not fair.

This is why I'm saying there's something broken. And WHM:s sure aren't the only job who's feeling it.

Not everyone has the time or interest to level a totally different/non-attractive job just to merit, even though a lot of people seem to do that. Some of my friends have done that too, and that's good for them. I just don't have that kind of time, and I'd really like to have fun while playing the job I love. Sometimes it's just a bit hard to have faith.

This was brought up by two friends of mine [NIN & BRD], who stormed to 70 in less than two months by staticking together, and are now complaining about 'sucky exp' in their first bad party in two months. 90% of the parties I've been in have had slow to average exp, the 10k+ parties aren't constant at all, so their comments just got me a bit down. I'm already thinking that I'd start leveling some other job after I hit 75, to get a little breather. But on the other hand, my WHM is needed in the HNM-scene in two months or so, and I'd like to have some merits in my pocket by then.

Nights like these just get me thinking if it's really worth it to grind merits like a maniac while others do it the speedy way. If it wasn't for the fact that my endgame-LS was started by my IRL-friends, I probably wouldn't bother. All that meriting, just to become a slave to some LS with people who can't even remember your name unless you've been active for half a year? Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.

I'd appreciate it if you'd give this some thought before you reply with something like 'go level BRD'. Thank you in advance, for not being an arse. ^^

[Sevv]

If it makes you feel better I generally fail at typing/spelling/grammar because I dont ever recheck it. But onto your post...

Im not going to lie, I have Ninja and Warrior @ 75 for two reasons. One reason being my LS was short on both jobs, and the other was for merits. I consider my self first and foremost a Dragoon (not that I ever get to use it.). Burn PTs are HUGE right now there is no denying this, I dont know how Caitsith Rdm population is but full out burn party or a more "standard" party, Rdms tend to get alot more invites. Rdm + Brd combo is just amazing to shorten down time (not getting into the whole rdm v whm convo). Whm are still a high demand job for exp, I personally have seen them in a great deal of burn parties. Keep your head up and do your best people will remeber your name. When you make a good name for yourself people do a /sea all Shisui rather then a /sea all Rdm.

[Raydeus]

You gotta consider many DD jobs (lolDRG) spend or used to spend waaay more time looking for party than any WHM ever will, so it's subjective.

Also, I dunno if this will make you feel better or not but the best burns do include WHMs. Sadly (like I've said many times before) that only seems to be the case with japanese players.

So my advice would be trying to make some JP friends if you can. <.<

[Sevv]

You gotta consider many DD jobs (lolDRG) spend or used to spend waaay more time looking for party than any WHM ever will, so it's subjective.


Most people who arnt in the "loldrg" grouping but are drgs solo while lfp >.>

[Necropolis]

White mage is my first job to 75, and is my only one at the moment. And I enjoy it a lot. I may not get the fastest invites, but I don't seem to seek long even as a whm. And I think it's foolish to say that whm can't fit into a TP burn party.

I've been in TP burns from bibiki bay all the way to Bhaflu Thickets off and on in my leveling career for white mage, and I've not noticed a poor exp/hr ratio. Most merit parties I'm in will hit at least 10k/hr and my best has been nearly 27k/hr. But they require a lot of work from a mage aspect IMO. Have to know how to maintain your MP, use your regens, barspells, and the like, and pay a little more attention than a mnk or war might have to.

Perhaps it's a server variance that TP parties on your servers don't think a whm can party well, or that there are enough bards and rdms for everyone that no one "settles" for a whm. Perhaps you could try setting up a few parties with various jobs that will work better for a whm. Personally I like Brd, Whm, war,war,war,nin. But brd, brd, whm, drk/sam, war, nin has yield a good 15k/hr party in the newer bhaflu areas (greater colbri and those buggard things).

Personally I enjoy leveling other jobs, and intend to have multiple 75 before the end of this year, but some people enjoy thier job and don't want to level other jobs like your self. I don't think that should be a problem either. People will need healers and you can provide that for them, and it's just a matter of getting into a few good parties that people will remember you and want to invite again and again.

Try making a party, or merit with your LS or friends. Exp doesn't always have to be a chore. My LS frequently merits with an alliance, and have a blast doing it. We even bring a leech or two along just to get exp for harder to level jobs, and we still do okay exp (rarly more than 10k/hr unless we are just pushing hard). I find meriting with friends and players you know that know thier job is much greater than pick up merit parties. It's fun to experiment new job combos, new camps and things like that.

I hope your outlook for merits improves, and that at least one thing I've mentioned helped in some way. Good luck!

P.S. Level bard >.>;; (sorry, had to say it :P )

[Sevv]

Most merit parties I'm in will hit at least 10k/hr and my best has been nearly 27k/hr. But they require a lot of work from a mage aspect IMO. Have to know how to maintain your MP, use your regens, barspells, and the like, and pay a little more attention than a mnk or war might have to.


I give alot of credit to burn party mages they really make it happen.

[Amele]

whm can be dropped into pretty much any slot that would be 'rdm' for 90% of the popular merit camps (perhaps whm/rdm for dispel) what you will need to do is pay very careful attention to your mp, rest when you can, and maximize your: refresh, conserve mp, and heal mp+ stats. look into investing in some +enfeebling gear to be able to stick those dispels and silences through Shell III/IV if the mobs you fight use it.

you should 'expect' 10k-13k/hr from even a mediocre tp burn, going much beyond this has more to do with the puller and camp availability than with the healer, since you will be able to manage your mp to never run out. consider trying to avoid pt's that are setup with both brd or cor, rdm and you, they'll tend to be a little less efficient than bard / cor + whm + 4 melee (or bard / cor x2 + whm + 3 melee etc).

the two most important spells are haste and dia II.

[Omniblast]

I was in the past 5 burn parties as whm.

You need to have Nyzul Isle staging point unlocked. Head to Alzadaal Undersea Ruins. Once there you need to go to Bhaflau Thickets to fight Greater Colibri. These things get chomped so easily by 4 nin, 1 rdm with dia 3, and 1 whm.

WHM just cast haste, and cure. It's too easy.

[Raydeus]

consider trying to avoid pt's that are setup with both brd or cor, rdm and you, they'll tend to be a little less efficient than bard / cor + whm + 4 melee (or bard / cor x2 + whm + 3 melee etc).

I'm interested in this part, mainly because the best Merits I get are in fact with a BRD+RDM+WHM+NIN+2DD party (have never tried this kinda setup with a PLD tank sadly).

The lowest xp/hr I get with that setup is 18k and up to 25k+ an hour without really pushing ourselves or having to struggle with casting times and stuff (don't know the exact amounts of xp but I usually get 3 merits before the second Protect wears off).

The only limiter here is that sometimes we simply run out of mobs even in a big area.


So my question would be:

What's the amount of xp you get from in a 4DD setup and where do you xp? I wanna know because if there's a way I can get merits even faster then (I'm interested.)

[Hankthetank]

I prefer a 3 mage 3 melee setup and my best XP parties where all setup this way.

My ideal party is Whm/Brd/Rdm 3x DDs. I've had some rediculous chains with this setup. 3 competant melee can kill anything fast enough to maintain a chain, and having a whm to handle hastes and cures means the Rdm can help pull and sleep.

The RDM helping the bard pull/sleep means the Bard will have an easier time keeping songs up on your melee at all times. Between the two there will always be a mob at camp and chains are practiclly never ending. Never mind the added bonus of peace of mind that comes with a WHM. A full mage line up makes a party practically invincible and MP becomes pratically non issue.

I've seen an amazing Rdm & Brd team that kept 2-3 ,mobs slept at the camp at all times. The melee never pu their weapons away. Having a WHM to handle cures and haste is what allowed the Rdm & Brd to focus on keeping the melee "fed" without having to worry about keeping the melee alive.

The best parties are going to be made of friends and LS members, stick with it, you'll eventually find a good core of competant people to xp/merit with. Until then XP/merit parties are really a crap shoot depend on the quality of the members you pick up. Remeber the good ones and invite them the next time you XP, eventually you'll never have to seek or even look to see who is seeking, you'll just check your friend list and go from there.

Don't let anyone convince you that it's having a WHM that is slowing your XP party down. If anything is slowing you down it's needing four melee to do the job of three.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

*Edit*
The lowest xp/hr I get with that setup is 18k and up to 25k+ an hour without really pushing ourselves or having to struggle with casting times and stuff (don't know the exact amounts of xp but I usually get 3 merits before the second Protect wears off).

You posted as I was typing my post, so I am editing my post to respond. Truthfully if you are already hitting that XP mark, 4 melee is not going to increase your XP/Hour. If anything it might hamper you.

1. Buffs are generally down more often due to the increased workload on the two remaining mages
2. Difficulty in keeping a mob at camp at all times. Bard songs are long and mobs can go from full to dead in 15 seconds if all the melee happen to have TP at the same time. In this case eithr the buffs drop or the pull is delayed.
3. Even if none of the above happen and every is rolling perfectly, then you will probably end up killing mobs faster than they can repop even in a large zone, a problem you seem to already be having with just 3 melee.

In my experiance the only time a 4 melee setup will net better XP than a 3 melee setup is when your exsisting three melee cannot kill the mobs fast enough to mantain the chain.

[Raydeus]

Yep, that's pretty much what I think about it.

But if there's a chance I could make more xp/hr with a 4DD setup it would be worth listening to it. :biggrin:

[Alshandra]

My favourite merit set up is WHM (me) BRD RDM NIN NIN WAR fighting Mamool Ja and Puks outside Mamool Ja Staging Point. I love the flexibility different camps offer, but I find this combination to be the most fun and effective for myself.

I hate colibri, I get so bored. After you haste everyone and throw out the odd cure or regen, I hate not being able to throw a Banish at the mob.

I can't say in my whole WHM career, have I ever had difficulty finding a party. Generally, I don't join pick up parties, I either merit with my LS or form my own party with the job combinations I prefer. I don't really agree with the statement that WHMs are not popular for exp/merit parties. This is only from my experience though.

I can see how you would be frustrated though with having difficulty finding parties, I'm having problems on BLM at the moment, currently Lv.47... No one likes BLMs any more now that everyone prefers to rape Colibri from Lv.55 onwards.

I've tried soloing but I find it a bit boring unless my friend duo's his RDM with me. The last few levels I have actually gotten through the capped Promyvion ENMs the last couple weeks. I really hate LFG... I spent two and a half hours crafting while seeking last week on BLM.. It was good for my Clothcraft but not so good for my BLM.

/sigh.

Not sure I you think any of this relates to your original post, but it was just a few thoughts I had after reading your entry.

Hang in there, WHM is a really great job and is a lot of fun, and I find it very rewarding personally. Good luck!

[Fliegar]

Before I read any further, what exactly is a TP party? I never got high enough to know what a manaburn party was, and I doubt I'll get into a TP party as a Dragoon. Could anyone fill me in?

[Alshandra]

Generally a TP party is DD heavy, and everyone fires off their Weapon Skills when ever they can, and don't really Skillchain at all. That's my understanding of it. Although I'm just a WHM, so not sure if I know if thats 100% correct.

Manaburn parties, on the other hand, consist of a Refresher and a handful of BLMs. They nuke it til its dead, before anyone can take any serious damage. I've never been in one, but that is my understanding of it.

Hope this helps ^^

[Necropolis]

Every party for me is different, and I go to learn and hone my skills. I've been in parties that were 5 DD and me (WHM), 4DD 2 mages, 3DD and 3 Mages. I've gotten decent to great exp in all of them and enjoy them all.

Personnaly I love a brd/cor, rdm, whm setup in my party. With Nobles, sanction, ballad/evoker's roll and refresh I'm getting back 8+mp/tick and don't have to rest a great deal. I can most times handle a full haste cycle and do 99% of the curing/statis removal. This lets the rdm go /blm and nuke/enfeeble more. I love having a merited sam along as well. One party in particular the sam would give TP to the bard to skill chain, rdm MB it, and the bard go back to pulling. Was fun and a change from the norm.

I think it's all a matter of "do you get lucky with who you pick". I personally find a lot of wars, rdm, brds that only level jobs for merits don't put a lot into it. This isn't to say all or even most are that way, but I find too many of them don't care. Once you get to meriting a lot of parties slack a little, hate bounces around, and people don't focus like they do when leveling a job. That doesn't bother me, save your brain power for gods, dyna and other events. But if you are devoting time to leveling/meriting, at least try to play your role decently.

As for leveling up to 75 from where you are now, I'd say if you find yourself in a traditional party, and only making average exp, try some of the older exp areas. Ulegraud Range (sp?), Moon, Ro Moeve (sp?) and a lot of those type zone are empty. And If I find myself in a non-TP burn, I urge them to forgoe the exp bonus of sanction, and grab signet. It's a nice change of pace from killing the same mobs over and over again. And those older zones really love a skillchain+MB combo, making it worth wild to invite that BLM that's been seeking for 3 weeks without an invite.

My most enjoyable parties on the road to 75 were the ones where we didn't kill the same exact mob over and over for 5 hours straight. But the ones where we are constantly trying to get Doom off of us, or trying to stun a nasty AoE move. And I believe it made me a better whm for it. I'm by no means the best, but compared to some I've partied with on other jobs, I'd have to pat myself on the back and say I'm a hair bit better than them.

My favorite aspect of this game is it's flexability. Despite how people try to fit everything into nice neat roles, don't be afraid to think outside thier little box and have fun doing it.

[Amele]

I guess I should clarify why I recommended avoiding a rdm+brd+whm pt:

I don't really trust pickup parties to get three competent melee at the time I'm available to exp, so I usually pick up a fourth DD to hedge my bets. (I've seen 3-3 parties that couldn't get 6k/hr because one of the DD's might as well be an empty space) since most merits only last one or two hours it can be difficult to actually 'kick' the under-performing member and get a replacement.

if you can get 3 competent heavy DD, a 3 mage 3 DD party is usually a better setup.

another important consideration is if the target mobs require dispelling or not: if they buff frequently (trolls in zhayolm come to mind) and the bard is usually away pulling or might need to dispel more than 1-minute, it's usually worth bringing a second dispeller over a 4th DD.

to answer the speed question: pretty typically 13-15k/hr depending on location. when we had nyzul isle to ourselves once (talk about weird o.o) we were able to clear 18k/hr with a 4-2 setup. I track including random afk's etc. so actual kill rates are possibly comparable, depending on how you estimate your exp/hr :)

that said: I'll have to try a 3-3 with competent DD. what are your preferred jobs for the 2DD slot?

[Hankthetank]

/shamless Plug

DD Pld/nin for your 4 melee setups. I find its a perfect fit for a 4 melee 2 mage setup. 80% the damage of a comparably equiped melee and 50% the healing power of a mage.


that said: I'll have to try a 3-3 with competent DD. what are your preferred jobs for the 2DD slot?


In order of my favorite DDs for a TPburn ignoring camp preferances:

1. War (That knows how to tank)
2. Nin (Unless I have at least 2 or more of the above)
3. Any smart DD that can bounce hate with the party without becoming a MP sink.
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136. Thf/nin that insists on TAing people at the start of the fight. These guys can single handedly ruin an XP party.

I really like good tankable Warriors for merits. Provoke makes bouncing hate a breeze. Pound for pound Warrior offers more damage output than nin, the only other job with both Voke and shadows, and in XP parties mobs die fast enough that nin offers little advantage in survivablilty over Warrior especially with three of them bouncing hate.

Biggest problem is finding 3 Warriors willing and able to tank, is incredibly hard. Most new age warirors are DD only, think they are gods gift to meritpos and end up becoming huge MP sinks when they dont recast shadows, don't know how to recast shadows, cast Ni only, and/or refuse to ever voke.

Really any melee who plays intelligently can be a party asset. There is a dark in my LS, (probably one of the least wanted classes for TP burning), and I'll XP with him anyday. In fact he is one of the only people I know who can /war, not have shadows, and still parse +/- 5% of me without becomming a MP sink. Incredible player.

/slight Derail

Out of curiosity, does anyone else have a job they absolutely HATE to see in their party? There is one job class I hate, I mean really hate. I rather go with 5 than have this job in the party and its a pretty popular job. It's a rather irrational hatred of the job, on paper they should be a job I welcome, but without exageration I can say I have never had a good experiance with one and I cringe anytime I see on in my party list.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Raydeus]

that said: I'll have to try a 3-3 with competent DD. what are your preferred jobs for the 2DD slot?

I think kinda the same as Hank, any competent DD who is capable at blink tanking is good, although NINs, WARs and MNKs tend to be the less likely to become an MP sponge for some reason.

There's 2 key points a succesful party of this type needs:

1) Location.- Since you really need enough mobs to kill as fast as you can without running out of them.

2) Competent players.- Specially BRD and RDM jobs.

If your BRD doesnt know how to pull fast enough while keeping songs up on melee to speed up kills then the xp rate will suffer. Keeping ballad up is very helpful but the BRD has some room to play with it because with a WHM in the party is unlikely you'll run out of MP.

And your RDM must be a good sleeper, debuffer etc. period. If the RDM is daydreaming and half-assing the job your xp rate not only will suffer but the BRD may die as a consecuence.

WHM and the DD have kinda an easier time but they still need to pay attention to what's going on, Utsusemi+WHM's ability to conserve MP while healing mean you'll never run into much troubles save for some status effects that may need to be removed.

The more skill players in your party have the more xp/hr you will get, that's one of the things I really like about this setup, no one can really go AFK or not pay attention and just leech xp because if anyone slacks in the party then the overall xp/hr suffers greatly, and those players never get invited again of course.

And because of the speed killing in this kinda of setup if anyone isn't paying attention you will really notice it.

[Vyuru]

Lanih, I think my best suggestion would be to get a static party if you could with some of your ingame friends, or some new ones! :) There is nothing better than having fun with your friends like this one day in Kuftal:

Bah, didn't do what I wanted, see attachment.

Out of curiosity, does anyone else have a job they absolutely HATE to see in their party? There is one job class I hate, I mean really hate.
Hmm, one wonders which job it is for you? :P

General party setups I like, either 2 mage and 4 DD or 3 mage 3 melee.
For two mage and 4DD I'd really say that you typically cannot have a tank, unless it's a ninja or a couple of war/nin. It would be my expectation that a pld may need a little more magely support than 2 mages could offer if stuff hits the fan.

However I have been greatly intrigued for a long time at the notion of a paladin setup for DD. Since they have Auto Refresh, and a fairly decent damage output with the appropriate gear, and superb healing spells, I think that they would be a natural kinda backup/top off healer for a 4 DD/2mage party.

If I have a 4 melee/2 mage party, I tend to favor a whm/rdm, or smn/rdm, or cor/smn, or cor/whm combo. I really like the buffs that corsairs give, so I kinda favor them over bards, and while I would really rather a summoner summon, they do make good replacement whm and the good ones, in a good party setup, normally find time to still toss out a few well timed Bloodpacts. Of course those are the totally kickass summoners I especially wish could have just been left alone to summon, but regrettably that sometimes just isn't an option.

Melee I like thf, drk, bst, and sam. A good thief will be able to mixup thier SA and TA really well, and if hate on one person is an issue they can generally TA onto me and I can either High Jump or Super Jump it off, or else the mob is killed by the TA+WS.

A good dark knight can be invaluable for stunning the mob, or when they use their Absorb spells such as Absorb TP. I've run into alot that just don't use their mp though, which is a shame.

Samurai, well everyone knows what a samurai brings to the table :P Which reminds me that I need to see where Flavinear's samurai is at..... Maybe I could get another static going again! :D

I like all the other melee jobs as well, but it's just that they are so popular, some can be a tad bit arrogant and look down their noses at the other jobs, some are in the midst of logging off, and the rest are in parties, so I generally either can't or don't party with them that much.

Plus it can be fun setting up a more olde school party that gets like 10k/hour. It may not be the most efficient, but I'd rather have fun in my parties and get good exp rather than get godly amounts of exp and not have any fun.

For a 3 mage/DD party, I like smn/whm/cor, or blm/whm/cor, or rdm/whm/cor. Rdm I can do with or without for now, few of the mobs I have fought use anything beyond a def+ buff, if anything, and a thf with Acid bolts can take care of those.
It is the journey and not the end that matters to me.

[Amele]

@hank

I love pld/nin DD for 4-2 setups. gives me someone to devote and let's me rest a little longer sometimes to manage mp more easily.

another thing I've heard was decently successful was a 4-2 setup without any /nin (whm+brd mage line) where the assumption was that the DD would literally kill it as quickly as humanly possible, while white mage just cured whichever DD took a bad hit while the mob was up. (curaga would probably be useful here too). the added damage vs say, colibri, would probably take the kill times down into the 15 second range so most mobs would likely only get two or three hits in.

seems a bit more risky, but I bet it'd be a blast too.

as for jobs I hate to see in merit: I like all the mainjobs, but some main/subs just grate on me (excluding the obviously lol ones like smn/drg etc).

sam/thf
cor/nin
drg/thf
drk/thf.. ok actually, pretty much anything /thf I don't like for exp at 75. (thf/x is good though!)

[Hankthetank]

another thing I've heard was decently successful was a 4-2 setup without any /nin (whm+brd mage line) where the assumption was that the DD would literally kill it as quickly as humanly possible, while white mage just cured whichever DD took a bad hit while the mob was up. (curaga would probably be useful here too). the added damage vs say, colibri, would probably take the kill times down into the 15 second range so most mobs would likely only get two or three hits in.

seems a bit more risky, but I bet it'd be a blast too.

Thats like a good ole Monk burns in KTR. It's good stuff, but you need to really keep the kill speed up, and its dangerous on mobs with extremely nasty WSs. Mamools have Rushing Drag and Vorpal Blade which deal massive damage 800+, Pecking flurry can do 800+ and hurt alot, Wyverns with Fang Rush can one shot some people, Overthrow is only about 400-500 Damage but Trolls sometimes like to spam it, Demons have condemation, Weapons have AoE Stun which sucks with out Utsu and smite of rage which can do big damage. Aura Stats hit hella hard, and Heavy blow(?) Is nasty. While Utsu rarely makes a party take no damage, it does a fantastic job of usually eatting these nasty WSs. Other than puks I really can't think of too many mobs that dont have at least one WS that could kill a berserked DD from yellow HP.

It is alot of fun, but you are very right it can be very dangerous, and other than KTR I have not seen it work out well. Eventually the laws of averages kicks in and a Melee will tank a nasty WS with his face. Best case the Melee doesn't die but requires a huge chunk of MP to fix, worst case he dies and chain stops or you keep going only now with a slower pace and a higher chance of a another melee eating a WS.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Amele]

yeah, even most of the KRT parties I'd get before CoP/AU came out were still mostly mnk/nin or brought a 'real' tank. (at least as much as one can tank for monks against bones lol)

I think if I were to take a non-utsu setup, I'd probably consider preferencing at least some of the DD slots for jobs with 2h weapons and seigan (so dark/sam, dragoon/sam war/sam sam/x etc.) which would take the edge off a bit, since as each one took hate they'd be able to slap third eye up after taking (around) 1 hit during the seigan activation time, and /sam compares favorably to /nin for attack up traits (10% haste, etc) esp. for 2h jobs.

might be fun to see spammed demon-wards in uleg too {hmmm.}

and yeah, I mostly had puks and perhaps colibri in mind (although 800+ flurry could drop a non monk or war, pretty darn quick, yeah.)

[Vyuru]

and yeah, I mostly had puks and perhaps colibri in mind (although 800+ flurry could drop a non monk or war, pretty darn quick, yeah.)


Most times when I exp'd off of Colibri I was invited to a party not of my own making. It was always made by the same guy and setup roughly:

bst/nin, war/nin, drg/war (me), cor/rng, smn/whm, other

The other was normally a war/nin, or a nin/war

The main problem with that party, no one wanted to hold hate, so hate went everywhere and more often than not to me. Having exp'd as drg/sam since then, I think that would have been better than drg/war for both lower hate and Third Eye, but I would have to say that even with Third Eye, you'd need your party to work together otherwise whoever takes hate will become a mp sponge rather quickly. This wouldn't be a problem, but it's more cooperation than I tend to see in a typical pickup party.

Probably the most notable party I had vs Puks was whm, rdm, nin, drg, thf, drk I think it was. I was the one drawing hate often, but the Puks seemed highly susceptible to my Dragon Killer trait. I also wore my AF legs and used Ancient Circle at the start as many fights as I could, and the Puks seemed to get intimidated quite often. I also seemed to parry alot more of the Puks special attacks than I would have thought possible, my parry skill was at 140 at the time, and I wouldn't have thought I could parry their AoE attacks, so I'm not sure what went on there.

Either way, I think Puks would be easier to do this with than Colibri, although Colibri would appear more natural to me since they cast magic back at you.

And after seeing how often Puks became intimidated, the melees, or tank, might want to look into those earrings with Dragon Killer on them, if they are fairly inexpensive then it might be worthwhile to pick up a pair.

[Lanih]

Thank you for the responses, everyone.

I don't feel so miserable about meriting on WHM anymore ^^ I was getting a bit burnt out, I guess. Exping my lv20-something WAR the last couple of days gave me a nice breather :D

I also talked to my linkshell, and we decided to try out meriting together sometime ^^ Even though the exp might not be 20k/h, I'm sure it'll be a lot more fun than with strangers :)

[Amele]

The main problem with that party, no one wanted to hold hate, so hate went everywhere and more often than not to me. Having exp'd as drg/sam since then, I think that would have been better than drg/war for both lower hate and Third Eye, but I would have to say that even with Third Eye, you'd need your party to work together otherwise whoever takes hate will become a mp sponge rather quickly. This wouldn't be a problem, but it's more cooperation than I tend to see in a typical pickup party.

yeah, hate going everywhere is good when there's a whm main healer (maximizing efficiency of mp with curaga line spells, assuming there's at least 3 melee taking hits) but hate ending up on one person is .. inconvenient.

also, while I haven't seen any definite comparisons of /sam vs. /war - it would not surprise me to see hasso + meditate come out on top over berserk / warcry for drg and dark. (which, excepting the hate gained from activating berserk/warcry, would lead to /sam generating more hate than /war over time) hasso is an 'all the time' +10% dot (+10 accuracy too!) with a (minor) +5 strength boost to help dps. and meditate is an extra 60 TP every 3 minutes (also minor).

berserk is +15% attack averaged (which will be slightly more or less than that dot, depending on your base attack and the mob in question) and warcry is a (minor) boost in attack for everyone as well.

so it's a question basically of whether +15% attack or +10% haste contributes more to your dot. (assuming that warcry and meditate wash and/or are too minor to make up a difference in either case).

and whether puks or colibri was better would largely depend on if you had a drg in your party or not, I think :)

[Icemage]

It should be noted that the DDx3 + RDM + BRD + WHM backline, while very effective (one might go so far as to say marginally the most effective) setup in many merit party situations, it requires smart backline gameplay.

From personal experience (I have WHM, RDM and BRD at level 75), WHM fits fine into this setup as long as the melees are good and the RDM is at least average and the melees are not too lazy about keeping up Utsusemi.

Not to mention that Raise III gives people warm fuzzies when the chips are down and you accidentally pull 9 enemies, though I've rarely seen any issues with KOs of any sort with WHM in a merit party (either myself or others).


Icemage

[Amele]

it occurs to me I missed 10% double attack as well on the /war. so I retract my statement that /sam is the 'better' dot sub. (although if you had sufficiently crunchy weaponskills, it might still be worth trying out) since 10% DA and 10% haste should just about even out, and then there's berserk on top of it.

[Vyuru]

it occurs to me I missed 10% double attack as well on the /war. so I retract my statement that /sam is the 'better' dot sub. (although if you had sufficiently crunchy weaponskills, it might still be worth trying out) since 10% DA and 10% haste should just about even out, and then there's berserk on top of it.


Well, let's say that my base attack is about 300, might be higher I just don't remember and that's the number I last remember seeing it as while not under any buffs.

Hasso and Meditate are roughly equivilant to Double Attack, I'd actually say that they come out ahead due to Meditate's TP return which is greater than Double Attack's, and if you are waiting on a party in the exp zone you can be using Meditate while you wait.

Berserk though, using your averaged 15% attack, which is important, gives me +45 attack with 300 base attack. While active and unaveraged it gives me a boost of 75 attack. The downside is of course when you average it out you get +45 att from it.

Now this is mostly due to my food setup, but the extra +10 acc from Hasso is enough for me to feel comfortable switching from eating sushi with a War subjob to eating meat with a Sam subjob.

My food of choice is Meat Mithkabobs, once I upgrade my lance and get alot more +att I'll probably switch to Sis Kebabs, or go back to Yellow Curry or something like that.

However that's besides the point, Mithkabobs give me +22% which caps at +60 attack, and that is a constant +att boost.

So when you factor in the +att food, Meditate, Hasso, Third Eye and Seigan just plain beat Defender 99% of the time, I would expect /sam to be the better DoT sub. I have also noticed that ever since I switched to /sam I don't draw anywhere near as much hate, but my damage output seems to be a bit higher since I don't have Berserk cooling down and I have a constant source of +att.

Now granted, that's a rather long winded way of saying X sub is better dependant on gear, but I think that in general that is true. A constant source of +att should be more beneficial than Berserk. There is enough +Double Attack gear and food out there now that you can get at least +10% or so Double Attack. Although someone with a War sub could get +15% or so Double Attack.

Still, since you can get most of the benefits of a warrior subjob while subbing something else, or being able to eat another type of food, I don't think I'd sub warrior unless I had so much +acc I could eat meat and sub warrior at the same time.

At which point I'd really have to question my ability to survive and not pull hate constantly, but that's what meriting High Jump is for! :P

[Amele]

oh definitely if the +acc allows you to change to meat food, then /sam would be the preferable sub.

I was making comparisons assuming that (for the most part) gear and food would be the same across the various sub combos.

(I do very much like to see drk/sam and drg/sam - it's a nice change of pace and provides much better survivability than /war for alot less dot loss than /nin would).

[Hankthetank]

There is enough +Double Attack gear and food out there now that you can get at least +10% or so Double Attack.

Other than Brutal Earring what other DA gear is there? Tenticle sushi is the only other one I know of and it offers lower Acc and a very minimal DA bonus. I'd be very interested in getting 10% Da on my Paladin.

Sincerely,
Hank

[Amele]

for dragoon? it's relatively easy I think. (brutal + rune halberd latent would do it)

for paladin? not so much.

foods are +1%(maybe some 2%) with the exception of rice ball antics with shogun rice balls and the lvl70 all jobs jinpachi.

armor pieces pld can wear with +da:
5% brutal earring
2% Ares Flanchard
2% Askar Korazin
?% Ares Set Bonus. (would need to be at least a further +3% for pld to reach 10% DA)

I'm not sure there's any ares flanchard on any server period at this point, actually, although I could be wrong since at least all three drops for this piece are known (which is more than can be said about several other salvage pieces.)

and I'm sure there is no complete set yet.

[Vyuru]

DA stuff:

Brutal Earring: 5%
Askar Korazin: 2%
Ares Flanchard: 2%
Roshi Jinpachi+Tonosama Riceball: 1%, 2% if samurai while wearing AF hands+Jinpachi
Askar Korazin: 2%


I didn't realise that the Askar Korazin was a HNM drop in Nyzul, I just saw it was an assault drop and assumed it was obtained like the other assault gear, so dunno how likely that is to get.

Nero di Seppia grants 1% DA, but it's stats are not that great, it's mostly +hp and store TP+6.

And of course the full set of Ares armor boosts DA, but I don't know by how much.

In looking at it in more depth, the Roshi Jinpachi looks interesting, making Tonosama riceballs give +50att, +30 def, +1% DA, but I think I'd rather be a samurai using the AF hands to double those stats for +100att, +60def, +2%DA.

And I don't think it's so far off to be suggesting Ares armor here. Either you'll be doing endgame HNM stuff and be spending alot of time to get the gear from that, or you'll be doing Salvage and spending alot of time to get the gear from that.

EDIT:

Forgot the Rune Halberd which adds another +5% DA. I don't think I'd use it though since it has a rather low damage threshold. The other pieces I listed above I feel could easily be used in exp parties, and are equipable by both drg and pld, as well as other jobs.

[Amele]

And I don't think it's so far off to be suggesting Ares armor here. Either you'll be doing endgame HNM stuff and be spending alot of time to get the gear from that, or you'll be doing Salvage and spending alot of time to get the gear from that.

it isn't. but the nyzul piece is more obtainable.

like I said, I don't know of any pieces of ares flanchard anywhere. (although at least one exists since all three drops to make are confirmed)

the askar is ok, but homam body is probably better, and about the same difficulty to get

losing the head slot hurts alot for paladin, so the +1 da foods are probably out too

realistically, brutal + full ares is your best bet. but again. no full ares set *anywhere* yet.

it's a good list of the options for sure though! especially covering all the foods.

(there's a sushi that gives double attack too, I think.. tentacle?)

[Vyuru]

(there's a sushi that gives double attack too, I think.. tentacle?)
Yeah, another thing I forgot to mention ^^; I forget the stats on it, +enmity I think, but that gives +1% DA as well.

but the nyzul piece is more obtainable

Depends, in looking at the Nyzul assault, I'd be guessing that each HNM drops a certain type of armor, or has a higher percentage chance of dropping a certain armor, gear slot dependant on floor it seems.

I haven't heard of any full Ares sets either, but I kinda wonder. I know of a couple of Dynamis LS who have either just one or no thiefs at all who complain about the drop rates. I'm wondering if few people bring thiefs along on Salvage runs.

But damn I want to get started on Salvage soon, the Ares armor is perfect for all the jobs I want to level (drg, war, pld, drk) and it is just godly for Gaxe using warriors since str/vit are important modifiers for alot of the WS. Plus the damage on a dragoon's jumps are slightly affected by Vit, so that is a rather nice, albiet small, boost.

[Sevv]

Lol you guys got soooo off topic lol.