DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

[Hankthetank]

I have been recently been toying with the idea of dropping my double attack merits and meriting aggressor. Among the Warriors I speak to this seems to be the general consensus on the best way to merit your Warrior, especially for Warriors who offhand a multi-hit weapon.

Before I erased another 15 merits I decided to do some numbers and see what kind of improvement Aggressor could hypothetically offer me and came up with the following. My first reaction was that my math or logic must be wrong, but so far I haven’t found any major flaws in my math or my logic. Any input would be great, especially on the math/logic.

Unmerited Aggressor
5min or 300 second recast
60min or 3600 seconds in an hour
12 recasts an hour. Aggressor is up for 180 seconds per a recast.
So unmerited Aggressor is up for 2,160 seconds out of 3,600 seconds every hour.
2,160/60 = 36 Minutes out of every hour.

Fully merited Aggressor
4min 10 seconds or 250 seconds recast
60 min or 3600 seconds in an hour
14.4 recasts an hour. Aggressor is up for 180 seconds per each recast.
So fully merited Aggressor is up for 2,592 seconds out of 3,600 seconds every hour.
2,592/60 = 43.2 or 43 minutes 12 seconds out of every hour.

So if constantly activated as soon as available fully merited Aggressor gives you an extra 7 minutes 12 seconds per and hour compared to unmerited Aggressor.

Assuming the difference between Aggressor up and down is 5% in Acc:
Unmerited:
90% for 36/60 minutes
85% for 24/60 minutes
[(90*43.2) + (85*16.8)] / 60
88% acc overall.

Merited:
90% Acc for 43.2/60 minutes
85% Acc for16.8/60 minutes
[(90*43.2) + (85*16.8)] / 60
88.6% Acc overall.

.6 Overall improvement

Given a 10% difference between Aggressor up and Aggressor down.
Unmerited:
90% for 36/60 minutes
80% for 24/60 minutes
[(90*43.2) + (80*16.8)] / 60
86% acc overall.

Merited:
90% Acc for 43.2/60 minutes
80% Acc for16.8/60 minutes
[(90*43.2) + (80*16.8)] / 60
87.2% Acc overall.

1.2% overall improvement.

15% Spread between Aggressor up and down.
Unmerited:
90% for 36/60 minutes
75% for 24/60 minutes
[(90*36) + (75*24)] / 60
84% acc overall.

Merited:
90% Acc for 43.2/60 minutes
75% Acc for16.8/60 minutes
[(90*43.2) + (75*16.8)] / 60
85.8% Acc overall.

1.8% increase in overall Acc.

20% Difference in Acc between Aggressor up and down.
Unmerited:
95% for 36/60 minutes
75% for 24/60 minutes
[(95*36) + (75*24)] / 60
87% acc overall.

Merited:
95% Acc for 43.2/60 minutes
75% Acc for16.8/60 minutes
[(95*36) + (75*16.8)] / 60
89.4% Acc overall.

2.4% increase in overall Acc.

Since full merits on Aggressor increase the amount of time you can keep Aggressor up by 12%. This formula seems to work:

(The Difference in Acc between Aggressor up and Aggressor down) * (12%) = Increase in overall Acc by fully Meriting Aggressor Vs Unmerited Aggressor.

Double attack suffers from diminishing returns the more you stack. This changes the break even point depending on the amount of Double attack you have pre merits and on if you use an off hand multi-hit weapon. I was looking for what the “break even” point was, to find at what point aggressor merits will be better than double attack merits and vice versa.

For the following I am calculations I am assuming the following:
1. Base Double Attack rate of 10% for a Warrior
2. 50% proc rate on a Joyeuse
3. 5% increase from a Brutal Earring.
4. In regards to DoT, 1% increase in Acc = 1% increase in the number of landed double attacks = 1% increase in DoT”

Based on that fully meriting double attack seems gives the following actual gains and break even points Vs aggressor merits.

Axe/Axe & No Brutal Earring
Out of a hundred innings no DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
Off hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.

220 Swings total

Axe/Axe + 5 Double Attack Merits & No Brutal Earring
Out of a hundred innings with full DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional from Double Attack Merits.
Off hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional from Double Attack Merits.

230 Swings for an increase of 10 swings over our original 220, or a 4.545% increase over No Double Attack Merits.

Assuming 85% Acc that translates into 3.863% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 31.192%

Assuming 90% Acc that translates into 4.091% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 34.092%

Axe/Axe + Brutal Earring
Out of a hundred innings no DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Base Double Attack.
5 Additional from Brutal Earring
Off hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional from Brutal Earring.
220 Swings total

Axe/Axe + Brutal earring + 5 Double Attack Merits
Out of a hundred innings with full DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional from Brutal Earring
5 Additional From Double Attack Merits.
Off hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional from Brutal Earring
5 Additional from Double Attack Merits.

240 Swings for an increase of 10 swings over 230, or a 4.348% increase over No Double Attack Merits.

Assuming 85% Acc that translates into 3.696% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 30.800%

Assuming 90% Acc that translates into 3.913% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 32.608%

Axe/Joyeuse & No brutal
Out of a hundred innings no DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
Off hand:
100 Swings
50 Joyeuse Double Attack
5 Additional from Double Attack.

265 Swings total

Axe/Joyeuse + 5 Double Attack Merits & No brutal
Out of a hundred innings with full DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional From Double Attack Merits.
Off hand:
100 Swings
50 Hits from Joyeuse Double Attack.
5 Additional from Double Attack.
2.5 Additional from Double Attack Merits.

272.5 Swings for an increase of 7.5 swings over our base of 265, or a 2.830% increase over No Double Attack Merits.

Assuming 85% Acc that translates into 2.406% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 20.050%

Assuming 90% Acc that translates into 2.547% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 21.225%

Axe/Joyeuse + Brutal Earring
Out of a hundred innings no DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Swings
10 Additional from Base Double Attack.
5 Additional from Brutal Earring
Off hand:
100 Swings
50 Joyeuse double Attack
5 Additional from Double Attack.
2.5 Additional from Brutal Earring.

272.5 Swings total

Axe/Joyeuse + Brutal Earring + 5 Double Attack Merits
Out of a hundred innings with full DA merits we can expect:
Main Hand:
100 Hits
10 Additional from Double Attack.
5 Additional from Brutal Earring
5 Additional From Double Attack Merits.
Off hand:
100 Hits
50 Joyeuse Double Attack
5 Additional from Double Attack.
2.5 Additional from Brutal Earring
2.5 Additional from Double Attack Merits.

280 Swings for an increase of 7.5 swings over 272.5, or a 2.752% increase over No Double Attack Merits.

Assuming 85% Acc that translates into 2.339% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be > 19.492%

Assuming 90% Acc that translates into 2.477% more DoT. To match that overall increase in performance with aggressor merits we would need the difference between Aggressor up acc and Aggressor down acc to be >20.642%


I don’t have a Ridill, so I haven’t made an calculations to account for it’s effect. I *think* is 33.33% chance for each a single, double or triple attack. That is one of the key pieces of info I would need to crunch numbers. The other thing I would need to know if Ridill’s multi-hits are checked before or after double attack is checked. The check order would be very important and have a very significant effect on the end results. To date I have yet to see any convincing opinions on the matter.

Either way ignoring a ridill it seems that the break even point is around 30% for Axe/Axe users and around 20% for Axe/Joy users depending on your over all accuracy.

I don’t think I have ever experienced a 20% drop in over all Acc when aggressor goes down. While admittedly I haven’t been parsing specifically for the difference between my aggressor up and aggressor down Acc for very long, but in the few I have I have yet to see such a significant drop. Even before I started looking specifically at the Aggressor down Vs. Aggressor up Acc, I still parsed every XP party, and feel confident in saying it didn’t occur then either. I think it’s a safe assumption that I would have noticed if my Acc dropped from 95-75% or 90-70%. 20% is a very drastic change in accuracy; I would think it would be very apparent to even “eyeball parsers”.

These numbers would indicate that for me even as a off-hand Joyeuse user Double Attack merits would serve me better than full aggressor merits. This is contrary to everything I have ever heard on the topic. I have yet to see and hard data on the topic and never heard of anyone who has been able to give an opinion based off of having had experience with a 5/5 Zerk/DA combo and a 5/5 Zerk/Aggressor combo. Without any first hand information available I feel these numbers are the best way to compare the two setups, and would love to get other opinions on it.

/discuss

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Sevv]

IMHO as a axe/joy user with a brutal

double attack > aggressor, I think the only time I have a need for aggerssor is skill up pts when im under leveled. I dont think the difference is greater then double attack. The only place I see aggressor greater then double attack is High eva based hnms/gods with Gaxe for sata steel cyclone.

[Ziero]

I thought the multihit weapons completely overwrote Double Attack completely. Meaning if you have a Multihit weapon equiped, that hand will not double attack at all. Weren't there tests shown that Multihit weapons never go off during WS as opposed to DA? If that's the case then the Joyeuse shouldn't be considered in this calculation.

Also, iirc there is far more Acc+ gear then DA+ stuff. Since it's easier to stack acc gear and merit DA then to merit your Acc buff and stack DA+ one would assume you would be better off gearing Acc and meriting DA. Both suffer from diminishing returns so an overload of Acc will have the same effect as an 'overload' of DA.

Aggressor will *not* be up every time the timer resets, so your DoT numbers are slightly inflated towards the Aggressor side. In a merit pt, the downtime between pulls, if any, is a loss in DoT on the aggressor end as when switching mobs the time is running down and shortening the duration that Aggressor is actually in use. And in Alliance HNMs, if you in any way shape or form stop swinging while aggressor is active, it will again lower the actual DoT% increase you would see from it being fully merited.

Then there's the fact that kill speed, due to faster attacks, is usually more important in many endgame situations then pure acc. DA will 'increase' your attack 'speed' by giving you extra hits without delay, Aggressor will have no affect on said 'speed'. And though it may *seem* like that extra time with Aggressor may give you more dmg in an hour, you compared it to a solid 100 normal attacks counting the DAs inbetween while ignoring the amount of *time* it takes to make those attacks. The best way to compare them would be to either gauge the Acc% of 100 hits with Aggressor with the Dmg rate of 100 normal attacks plus the additional DA procs. Or even compare the Acc increase over the course of an hour with the amount of DA procs in the same timespan.

Though either way, I can not see any way that increased Aggressor will trump increased Double Attack in terms of dmg output. So while your numbers may not seem accurate to me, we do seem to have reached the same conclusion.

[Saren]

Couple of questions.

Wiki is down while the owner moves it and boy do I miss it for posting on stuff like this.

1. Does Agressor allow you to exceed the accuracy cap of 95%?

2. Sorry about linking this post but I went and looked up aggressor and stumbled across a post on Alla (sorry again). The post is here (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=4&mid=111540650610706145&num=39) and he talks about a few things but the relevant part was ‘aggressor adds 25 to accuracy and ranged accuracy’ he used the check method, seemed to know what he was talking about so I am guessing he’s probably right. Annoyingly though he doesn’t mention anything that would answer question one. Can anyone else confirm if he is correct?

The answers to those two really make a big difference to your maths and relative payoffs.

If aggressor doesn’t allow you to exceed the 95% accuracy cap then it becomes a balance of being able to drop some accuracy gear/food for something that allows you to do more damage per hit compared to a DA merited WAR who is hitting a more often but for less damage and evading a bit more . If Agressor does allow you to exceed the accuracy cap then it’s different.

If aggressor adds 25 straight points to your accuracy then it’s not a percentage boost to your accuracy which changes how you would look at things. 25 accuracy points is approaching half of the amount of accuracy it takes to change a High evasion mob into a Low evasion mob which sounds like a lot of accuracy to me but I don't know melee jobs or high level mobs.

As with a lot of job specific merits really, I think it probably depends on what you do most of. Do you need to be able to evade much, do you tend to have more trouble landing hits or doing damage or some of both depending on what you are doing?

I think it also depends on your gear as you said yourself. If you can only have a max of 8 hits per attack round and it’s not possible to proc DA more than once per hand per attack round (both unproven at present) then if you are dual wielding weapons that proc large numbers of multi hits regularly between them then your gear might well be stopping your DA merits from kicking in quite a lot of the time which is wasted merit points.

[Sevv]

lol at 95% acc ive been parsed over that more then once on drg >.>

and with wiki down I cant show the difference in da vs aggressor ; ;

[Ziero]

lol at 95% acc ive been parsed over that more then once on drg >.>
and with wiki down I cant show the difference in da vs aggressor ; ;
There is a 'soft' cap on Acc as you can't ever have 100% acc against any mob. So while you can have higher then 95%, that's usually the point where Acc gear stops having any real effect. And I don't think Aggressor is an exact +25 acc (like how Focus has been proven to be an exact +20 acc), I believe it scales up similar to Berserk. With focus, I often hear it become less reliable at higher lvls, but aggressor is always a strong Acc booster. Plus unlike Focus, Aggressor has a significant downside to being used so I'm sure it's bonuses will be far greater then five more acc and 60 more seconds of duration.

[Sevv]

Im really thinking aggressor is about a +10/+15 its really like just wearing a life belt, it use swift belt for tp gain, on high eva mobs I use to switch to potent belt (used in ws macro) to help when aggressor was down.

[Jei]

To me it's more about what weapon you use. DA is good if you use single hit weapons. Axe/axe, man/jug, something like that.

Berserk+Aggressor is best when you go for multi-hit weapons. Say, every war's dream, Ridil+joy. DA won't have much chance to proc, and ACC from aggressor can really help on top of supa+sword merit,

[Sevv]

wasnt thinking of ridill-joy combo, I already wrote a ridill off when i got out of Kings Endgame, </3 afk claims

[Lmnop]

aggressor really does seem to be a static +25 acc. Acc doesn't have to scale with level -- it's usually enough to make a mob go from neutral to low evasion.
It will not magically make you go above cap, and Saren, I think this addresses a concern you alluded to but maybe not:

Any good Warrior will have enough acc already that aggressor pushes you into diminishing returns mode. Even if it's enough to push you from high evasion to low evasion, you should have the mob checking low evasion -before- Aggressor (though you could always equip swap on more DD gear while aggressor's up - I tried this back in the 50s and found myself constantly forgetting to hit my macro to go back to acc gear after aggressor went down).

Focus is like 10-15 w/out AF. AF boosts it to 20.

You can obviously hit 3 times in a row and say you had 100% acc, but yes, soft cap over time will show closer to 95%.

As for his double attack rate with joy, it looks like he figured it. In his example of offhand joyeuse + brutal, that would normally be 15% 2A but he has it only giving 7.5 swings, which I believe is right. Because 2A is only proc'ing on half the swings you make (the 50% that joyeuse doesn't activate on).

I probably missed something, but I'm not quite understanding some of the earlier results...

If I have 15% 2A rate, it'll take 34% acc from Aggressor to compensate but if I have 20% 2A, it'll only take 32% acc from aggressor to match? Either there's an ambiguity I misread or that says that 5% additional double attack actually weakens you.

[Hankthetank]

Thanks for reading my post. I apreciate the input and some eyes to check for errors.


If I have 15% 2A rate, it'll take 34% acc from Aggressor to compensate but if I have 20% 2A, it'll only take 32% acc from aggressor to match? Either there's an ambiguity I misread or that says that 5% additional double attack actually weakens you.


Its doesn’t weaken you, it just offers a smaler improvement, meaning Aggressor has to do less to catch up. Because of the diminishing returns on stacking DA if you have 15% Double attack and merit another 5% it offers less improvement than if you only have 10% and merit another 5%. Since the resulting improvement is less significant, the amount of improvement aggressor needs to provide is also smaller.

Going from 15% to 20% offers a smaller 4.348% improvement in DoT so we only need a 32.608% improvement in acc between Aggressor up and down to match the increased DoT of the 4.348% increase in double attack.

Going from 10% to 15% offers a larger 4.545% improvement in DoT so you need a bit more, you need a 34.092% increase in acc between Aggressor up and down to match the increase DoT of the 4.545% increase in DoT.

I hope that makes sence. 5% double attack is always an improvement, its just a question of how much of an improvement it actually provides.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Amele]

I can't verify if this is the case since I don't own a ridill, but I've been told anecdotally that ridill and soboro sukehiro are functionally identical (excluding the obvious weapon type and delay) and I do own one of those.

in any case, it's an average attack rate of 2 per round (without double attack, /thf for my tests.) and it appears to single attack as frequently as triple attack.

I haven't yet determined the exact single/triple attack rates, I expect it is either:
33/33/33 or 25/50/25 (I'm leaning toward the latter at this time, but it's a pretty small sample size.) I'll see if I can get some people to waste a tag and go poke some excavation duty walls at 50 cap later this week.

could consider running the numbers in both cases probably.

[Jei]

I don't own a Ridil either but I have seen tests for Kraken, saying that it evens out between 1-8 hits equally. Joyeuse seems to work the same way, 1-2 hits equally. Wouldn't be too surprising if Ridil uses the same rule, 1/1/1 for 1-3 hits.

Another reason I like to merit aggressor up equally to berserk is that I always use them both together in 1 macro. Having both equally merit and recharging at the same time is really nice and cut down one timing I have to keep track of.

[Saren]

O.k. this post is totally lmnops fault. He told me to post maths so here goes. Remember who to blame when you get bored.


Before I start though, Sev and what you said about parsing. I am sure you did. The thing is though that if you knew you had 95% accuracy and you did say 10 batches of 100 hits and recorded how many times you missed, I would expect three or even four of your ten batches to have less than 5 misses in them giving a perceived accuracy of over 95%. 95% accuracy does NOT mean you can be pretty sure to connect 95 hits out of the first hundred hits you do or even 95 000 hits out of the first 100 000 you do (though this is more likely than connecting 95 in 100), this is a simplification to make it easy for people to use. What 95% accuracy means is that if that you picked a mob and hit it for ever then your average percentage of hits would be 95%. They are not the same thing.


Working out Damage per second

Hank, I think your maths is good as far as it goes but you were assuming that aggressor upped your accuracy by a certain percentage.


Before I post more, qualifying statements.
I want to make it clear that I don't expect any of the formulas I will put here or conclusions to be absolutely correct. I have used ffxilopedia as the source for all the information, I have assumed that everytthing said there is correct and I haven't tested anything myself. The chances of nothing I have quoted from wiki here being wrong are miniscule. I have also made some quite sweeping simplifications to stop my brain exploding.
There will be formulas in this post, don’t treat them as gospel: they are at best approximations, and thats assuming the data and forumlas they are using are correct which they may well nto be.
I have ignored critical hits and all warrior job abilities barring aggressor.
At worst, this is me rearranging someone elses mistakes so please please don’t take this too seriously. There is never any substitute for your own experience and testing.
Damage per second, the basic formula:

The stat that every DD wants to max, O.K now a approximation for a ‘damage per second’ formula would be:

DPS = NDPS + (WSD/ average time to accumulate 100% TP)

Where
DPS = Damage per second
NDPS = the damage per second from ordinary non weapon skill attacking
WSD = average damage from whatever weapon skill you are using

I have split the damage in this way because for one, there are a lot of different weapon skills you could be doing, each with their own modifiers and gear swaps to max out the damage and many different weapons etc that you could be using. So, if you want to get an idea of the weaponskill side of the damage equation then I recommend looking here (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/TP) for information on TP accumulation and wiki is also a good site for look up the mods for various weapon skills. If you know that you are going to be doing a particular weapon skill most of the time, it’s worth looking at the WSD but I will only be talking about maximising your NDPS.




NDPS

NDPS = average damage per hit * average hits per second * accuracy

Going through all the wiki stuff and simplifying down as much as I can these are what I came up with.


Approx damage per hit
Damage = { [weapons base damage * ((your STR – mob VIT)/4)] * [your attack/mob defence]}

Where [(your STR – mob VIT)/4] will never be less than (weapons base damage/9) and never more than (weapons base damage/9) + 8, the weapons base damage is the damage listed on the weapon and (your attack/mob defence) will never exceed 2. There were other corrections on this ratio but in general more attack the better till you get to your attack being double the mobs defence and the level corrections on this factor are irrelevant because we are talking in general terms so we don’t know what level the mob will be. The only thing I find weird about this is that the level of skill you have with the weapon isn’t listed as a damage factor which I was expecting it to be.

Conclusions:

So, if the above is right, your weapons base damage is by far the most powerful factor in determining damage per hit, followed by your strength (which is also limited by your weapons base damage) and finally your attack (attack being such a small factor surprised me).



Average Hits per second

This is where DA merits are going to boost your damage per second. Assuming that single weilding a weapon with 60 delay swings once per second and that DA can proc with equal chance on any base attack from your weapon then:

Avg hits per second = (avg number of hits per attack round) * 60/ (weapon delay)

If you are dual wielding you would need to put your combined delay in for ‘weapon delay’

average number of hits per attack round = (base average number of hits from the weapon) * [1 + (DA%/100)]

Conclusions:

Your DA dependant factor ranges from 1.1 up to 1.15 with merits and a +1% DA increases your NDPS by a factor of (0.6 * avg number of hits per attack round)/(weapon delay) which is pretty small again.
Taking into account possible limitations on DA proccing given by a cap on number of hits per attack round or DA not procing more than once per hand makes getting to an equations for average number of hits per second hellish so I left it as it was. I don’t think any limitations would actually be statistically all that relevant, assuming they exist unless you have a large number of attacks per attack round occurring regularly, and by large I mean 2+ single wielding and 3+ dual wielding.



Accuracy:

This one is a pain in the butt and I am working based on some very assumption heavy logic so bear with me. This is the factor that aggressor can help you with.

Lets assume that accuracy is a linear progression, that is:

+X accuracy = +Y% hits landing on the mob.

Lets also assume that the very very tenuous figures put for the by wiki are correct, that is:

At the point of high evasion checking…..your accuracy – mobs evasion = -30 and your hit rate is 50%
At the point of low evasion checking…..your accuracy – mobs evasion = 10 and your hit rate is 75%

Assuming these are right and that accuracy is linear that means that +40 evasion gained us 25% hit rate. (this would make aggressor, if it’s equal to +25 accuracy, equivalent to a +15.6% hit rate increase).

That this would also mean is that, assuming all the above is true, if you go up to a mob you want to fight, add accuracy gear till you find the point where the mob checks as low evasion, you would need an extra 32 points of accuracy from somewhere to get you up to the 95% accuracy ‘cap’. You can see for yourself though, highly highly tenuous conclusion.

Conclusions:

So, aggressor: it’s really as effective as the gear you have to swap in when you have that extra 25 accuracy that you don’t have to find. You can see for yourself which factors are supposedly more helpful in terms of increasing your damage/hit. You would have to work out your NDPS with aggressor up and again with aggressor down and weighted average the two to see what effected the merits would have.

While we are here though, Wiki lists facrots that improve your accuracy as:

1 level of weapon skill = 1 accuracy (possibly dropping to 0.9 at over 200 skill)
2 DEX = 1 accuracy
+accuracy from gear or job traits or job abilities
+accuracy % from food – these are applied after all the other bonuses and amplify them.




End Conclusions:

O.k. so after all of that, I have this advice.

If you are worrying about what group two merits to put in your WAR, get whichever ones you like and then make sure you have the best weapon you can possibly get because it probably has a much much greater effect on your DPS than your group 1 merits will, which seems to be what other people have said without needing all the gumph.

Sorry that wasn’t more helpful Hank but the number of variables and most of them unqualified factors makes it hard to apply maths to this problem at all.

[Amele]

good numbers,

minor issue.

accuracy gains are diminishing over time, starting at the 75-80% mark. (this is to say) +40 accuracy may gain you 25% going from High Evasion to Low Evasion, but will only gain you 5% going from (whatever number) accuracy (85%) to (whatever number+40) accuracy (90%).

this is part of why hank used accuracy gain %'s. - the other big reason is that it's generally accepted that Aggressor scales with level, which implies that aggressor's specific mod (unlike, say, Hasso) *is* a percentage of your accuracy.

(edit: )
also jei, speaking from experience with a kclub, the number of hits was more bell-shaped than linear, (i.e. I hit 3,4,5 times much more frequently than I hit 1 or 8) and since double attack can only proc on 1 hit, it's unfortunately not mathematically sound to just approximate all multihit weapons as 1/1(/1../1etc)
in the case of my soboro, I've always just sort of assumed that rigorous testing will bear out the kclub results I've seen, (that is: x%/100-2x%/x%) probably as: 25/50/25 and I would likely assume the same with ridill, until someone who owns one comes in and can give some definite results

[LyonheartLakshmi]

The calculations in the OP seem sound. But it only calculates which merit setup combined with rate of accuracy yields the most successful attacks in a given period of time. It does not, however, give any insight as to what variation in damage you'll see with those successful attacks.

With 5 Berserk merits and 0 Aggressor merits, the two abilities end up being staggered quite a bit. I drew out a time line for a 25 minute span, and it turns out that you get the benefit of both Aggressor and Bersker 44% of the time. 28% of the time, you get the benefit of Berserk without Aggressor, so you are reaping less benefit from Berserk during that time.

I tried setting up some DoT equations to determine where the break even point would be, between average melee damage without Berserk and average melee damage with Berserk. The formula became so complicated, it didn't seem meaningful without some parsed numbers.

I'm probably going to use my merits for 4 DA / 3 Aggressor / 3 Berserk. That's only 1 DA merit less than maximum, and will still let me keep Aggressor and Berserk synchronized. That seems like a fairly well balanced approach.

[Lmnop]

that will likely be my approach as well, Lyonheart. Though if I ever found myself with full Ares gear, I'd prolly go ahead put a 5th 2A just to say I hit max double attack rate (multi-hit weapons notwithstanding).

[Sevv]

Kind of a necro post here:


Been playing as a war main now for a good while. Berserk/Aggressor merits are the way to go. Axe/Sword (285/271 skills) Berserk/ Aggressor has a much higher impact then double attack will. If you are playing in endgame alot then you will want to have aggressor merit for the added acc boost escpecially if you use a haste set up.

[Lmnop]

Pulling up an old thread is no problem, Sev. In fact, I was thinking about going and re-looking up this thread. You just made it much easier.

The problem is that you have nothing to back up your claims. Hank put a friggin' page into the math and came to an unbiased conclusion. And you basically just said "no, you're wrong." And didn't explain why. Sorry, but so far I think Double Attack wins. Regardless of what math turns up, though... I, for one, will continue to favor 2A because you know what? They're merits. Put 'em where you want 'em. Not where they'll go best.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

What's cool is that we can revisit Hank's math with some new information: 2 accuracy = 1% hit rate. Aggressor gives +25 accuracy, so the difference between Aggressor up and down should be about 12.5% hit rate (provided it doesn't push you pash the hit rate cap when it's up).

[Lmnop]

and so we return to the logic that if you can macro on extra acc gear while aggressor's down, and remember to put on more damage gear when it's down -- you'll probably perform incredibly. The problem with this is... let's say you parse 90% acc as a Warrior. Since this was a normal exp party, you had aggressor 50-70% of the time (just tossing in a margin of error to compensate for time between fights and potentially amnesia). Could you really know what your actual acc was with and without aggressor? Would you have to go an hour of exp w/out using aggressor to find out? I don't know where I'm going with this...

[Amele]

hit rate does not contribute directly to dot, which was what hank was looking at. for that purpose his original math is still sound.

if anything, knowing how much accuracy equates to what hit rate just gives you a way to tell how close your gearset is to the accuracy cap and determine the point at which you're getting diminishing returns from aggressor (provided you aren't macro'ing accuracy out.)

nagamaki's work does however, mean that my post farther up is inaccurate now. the diminishing returns of accuracy only apply to dot not to actual hit rate. (going from 20% to 40% accuracy means you are not hitting twice as much in the same time period, but going from 80% to 100% is only an increase of .25)


also, synchronizing berserk and aggressor (or not) does not apply directly to the manner that hank calculated the relative value of aggressor and double attack (he averaged the effects over time, with an averaged boost to berserk damage) for a given berserk merit rate. if you go to the effort of specifically synchronizing these and only using them while synched, you could 'claim' full benefit of berserk to the aggressor dot, while maintaining just the partial overtime bonus to the double attacks, but I don't believe it would swing the numbers sufficiently to change hank's original conclusions. (that between 5/5 zerk/da and 5/5 zerk/aggressor, zerk/da wins out)

it may be true that a hybrid setup is indeed the 'best' combination, but it would need to either be parsed (this could be quite difficult) or we would have to work out the (even longer length) math to determine the necessary gains empirically.

[Sevv]

Lmnop sorry I was unable to post fully work came in and I had to actaully do something for once. I am trying to get the parse in from a merit pt, we had recently. Identical gear wars axe/sword combos, the only difference in merits was berserk/aggressor capped vs berserk/da (with 1 more str and 1 more hp merit).

The berserk / Aggressor won out by like 4% I believe. It was a close parse, done at Nyzule Isle Bhaflau Thickets. Now the bigger difference in the Aggressor Vs. Double Attack is what you use your warrior for. If you only merit on your Warrior and never take it into sky/endgame I believe, double attack may be a better route seeing it can help in tp burn pts. If you do more Endgame on your war aggressor is going to be more benefical due to the fact of gods/hnm have more evasion, so aggressor will provide the better Acc. to counter the evasion.

If i can get the parse I will post it up here to debate on it.


Also Merit wise if you go axe/axe double attack would probably parse better, then aggressor ill have to grab 2 axe/axe warriors with similar merits to parse this.

[Amele]

Lmnop sorry I was unable to post fully work came in and I had to actaully do something for once. I am trying to get the parse in from a merit pt, we had recently. Identical gear wars axe/sword combos, the only difference in merits was berserk/aggressor capped vs berserk/da (with 1 more str and 1 more hp merit).
The berserk / Aggressor won out by like 4% I believe. It was a close parse, done at Nyzule Isle Bhaflau Thickets.

issue with parsing merit rather than more strictly controlled tests (like soloing steelshells) is that auto-attack lineup, weaponskill timing, debuffs, haste, utsusemi recasting and food all mess with the parse.

if warrior A is tanking twice as much as warrior B and keeps losing his food twice as often (prompting more swings without food and more time lost re-eating food) or is unable to swing around the mob in time to lockon to the next one, I would expect them to be a couple % behind even if they had the superior setup




Also Merit wise if you go axe/axe double attack would probably parse better, then aggressor ill have to grab 2 axe/axe warriors with similar merits to parse this.

(similarly reflected in the necessary accuracy boost gains in hank's math) I'd guess that axe/axe is going to be even more likely in favor of DA and GAxe I'd expect to be a rout.

[Sevv]

Both used same food and the ridill war was tanking lol, of course the other variables are a factor but both claimed to go right at 100% unless mob was at low hp. Simple fact is that it depends on the player, their set up is the only way how to chose the proper merits. My view is axe/sword berserk/aggressor axe/axe berserk/double attack.

[Amele]

Both used same food and the ridill war was tanking lol, of course the other variables are a factor but both claimed to go right at 100% unless mob was at low hp. Simple fact is that it depends on the player, their set up is the only way how to chose the proper merits. My view is axe/sword berserk/aggressor axe/axe berserk/double attack.

so. wait.. there were 3 warriors and only one had a ridill yet all were using axe/sword? (joyeuse?)

and it's entirely possible you're right for specific set ups, but short of doing an empirical test to determine how much accuracy aggressor really gives it's hard to definitely say either way.

[Sevv]

War/Nin Aberk Ridill
War/Nin Man/Joy B/A merits
War/Nin Man/Joy B/DA merits
War/Nin Man/Joy <- Me
Rdm/Whm
Brd/Nin

I don't have a parse on me or I would attempt tests on the exact acc aggressor gives, was just trying to share my exp.

[C.D]

I thought the multihit weapons completely overwrote Double Attack completely. Meaning if you have a Multihit weapon equiped, that hand will not double attack at all. Weren't there tests shown that Multihit weapons never go off during WS as opposed to DA?

Double Attack (from job traits, JA and gear) overwrites Ridill natural Triple Attacks.

and you're thinking too hard, on anything relevant your accuracy will never be capped hence a chance of triggering a few extra attacks would be somewhat wasted if you're going to miss a good portion of them (and in the very unlikely case that your Accuracy is actually capped - not gonna happen, even in merit parties - then you'd probably be better off dropping Sushi in favor of meat food, retaining the Accuracy you need from gear and merits).

For a job that generates 2/3 of its damage output during the TP gaining stage (and that already benefits from a +10% DA built-in enhancement from job traits) focusing on landing all your hits is definately the most logical and profitable choice, even moreso while off or main-handing a weapon with such an innately high DA and TA processing rate that relies on a relatively low combat skill like Ridill.

Another suggestion: parser reliability when trying to compare two different set-ups on two different melee that are exping together lacks consistency most of the times, unless the difference is greater than at least 5% total damage; that's just about the gap that auto-target'ting Vs. manual lock-on targets (via TAB) generally produces.

Cliffnotes: Aggressor/Berserk merits are substantially better, period.

[Tokitoki]

Especially when you start using a Haste setup and are trading Acc for haste Aggressor merits become even more valuable. It's having Aggressor up for about 45mins out of the hour versus about 39mins out of the hour. Those extra 6 mins you will hit more often with Berserk up. Or you could get a few more double attacks that have the same chance of missing and ending up with nothing anyway.

But I will say the same as Sev, if you are going to be using your WAR for HNM you will benefit more from full Bergressor merits. Having Bergressor timers down to about a minute (a minute meaning thats all you have to wait until you can put them back up) will help for the higher defense and evasion of those HNM.

[Hankthetank]

It's having Aggressor up for about 45mins out of the hour versus about 39mins out of the hour. Those extra 6 mins you will hit more often with Berserk up. Or you could get a few more double attacks that have the same chance of missing and ending up with nothing anyway.

Aggressor in those 6 minutes has to put out more damage than 45mins worth of Double attack. Those 6 minutes are the only advantage you have over an unmeirted war while Double attack merits are always active.

I did the math, I dont see it as possible. Its against the grain and while every Tim, Dick and Harry War has decided to tell me I am wrong, but I have yet to see anyone give any solid arguement with for Aggressor being the better merit catagory.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Amele]

Aggressor in those 6 minutes has to put out more damage than 45mins worth of Double attack. Those 6 minutes are the only advantage you have over an unmeirted war while Double attack merits are always active.
I did the math, I dont see it as possible. Its against the grain and while every Tim, Dick and Harry War has decided to tell me I am wrong, but I have yet to see anyone give any solid arguement with for Aggressor being the better merit catagory.
Sincerely,
Hankthetank

I could see it being the case with ridill versus speed-kill hnm, where you only need a couple minutes of accuracy and you could really use the boost to lackluster sword skill: with ridill in particular, double attack wont' trigger on a multihit attack anyway (double attack doesn't overwrite a triple proc on soboro, I see the same % triples with /thf as /sam so I doubt that ridill is any different. - parsing for doubles is a nightmare on sam/war though, since I have three different ways to end up attacking twice in the same round).

If you're a gaxe war, I don't even see aggressor coming close. (in any case, I'd probably merit double attack and depend on good accuracy gear, and sushi if necessary on high hnm.) the hnm's you can't hit at least 85+% (the base accuracy that Hank assumed) on are the ones that warriors don't get to melee anyway.

[C.D]

Warrior's Charge overwrites Ridill Triple and Single Attack 100% of the time and Assassin's Charge overwrites Kraken multi-hits above 3, it's been proven, I just can't find the link to my test at the moment.

EDIT: It's somewhere on this page, just scroll down and read mine and Khalea's posts.

EDIT#2: what the fuck, this thing won't let me post URLs even though I've been a member of these forums since 2004 or something, geez.


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I won.

[Sevv]

lol @ win and its by posts

[Amele]

Warrior's Charge overwrites Ridill Triple and Single Attack 100% of the time and Assassin's Charge overwrites Kraken multi-hits above 3, it's been proven, I just can't find the link to my test at the moment.
EDIT: It's somewhere on this page, just scroll down and read mine and Khalea's posts.
EDIT#2: what the fuck, this thing won't let me post URLs even though I've been a member of these forums since 2004 or something, geez.


warriors and assassin being unique cases (in that the ability presumably sets a flag that says: "next attack = double attack") on what timer, again?

general procs are checked -after- the weapon swings, period.

[Lmnop]

I'm not going to dig anything up (assumption ftw), but I've seen enough posts of people's thorough number tests to believe them. That being the tests where they say that Double attack trait cannot actually lower your triple attack rate from Ridill.

Speed Kirin needs Aggressor merits even less, wouldn't it...? when regardless, you're only going to get to use it once since he'll be DEAD.

[Sevv]

I'm not going to dig anything up (assumption ftw), but I've seen enough posts of people's thorough number tests to believe them. That being the tests where they say that Double attack trait cannot actually lower your triple attack rate from Ridill.
Speed Kirin needs Aggressor merits even less, wouldn't it...? when regardless, you're only going to get to use it once since he'll be DEAD.
in the same arguement w/o using aggressor who says you will hit enough to kill him seeing usually a good deal of haste gear in speed kirin sets.

[C.D]

warriors and assassin being unique cases (in that the ability presumably sets a flag that says: "next attack = double attack") on what timer, again?
general procs are checked -after- the weapon swings, period.


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4949/wcharge1gq6.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7092/wcharge8mf0.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4035/wcharge2db0.jpg



Except that Warrior's Charge acts exactly like a regular double attack. It stacks with Jailer weapons the same way DA does so I really don't see any valid reason to think otherwise, unless you can put some relevant proofs on the table to back up your statement.

[Amele]

I'm not going to dig anything up (assumption ftw), but I've seen enough posts of people's thorough number tests to believe them. That being the tests where they say that Double attack trait cannot actually lower your triple attack rate from Ridill.
Speed Kirin needs Aggressor merits even less, wouldn't it...? when regardless, you're only going to get to use it once since he'll be DEAD.

you'd get more effect from the aggressor in that time though (aggressor would be up a larger percentage of the fight) most of what makes Double attack merits so powerful is that they're up -all the time- which is most significant when you're swinging more or less constantly for a long period of time.

if your primary use of warrior is in short ~1-5 minute spurts, with long periods of time in between, then aggressor becomes more attractive.

[Lmnop]

Sev, I think you just made the mistake of thinking that Warriors simply don't have Aggressor unless they merit it. Even if I have ZERO merits but the best gear in the game, I'll have Aggressor up for 3 minutes.

C.D., I think it's more a factor of the difference in behavior between Ridill and Sea weapons -- not Double attack and Warrior's Charge. Order of Operations:

You swing
-did your Zilart Multi-hit proc? if yes, terminate further procs. If no, continue...

-did Double Attack trait activate?
-did Sea Weapon activate?

What Warrior's Charge would do (in this model) is say "you MUST perform double attack as the trait." Since the trait cannot work with Ridill/Kraken/Soboro, those abilities are supressed. However, since Sea 2A and Warrior 2A can and do coexist, it's a simple enough matter for Fortitude to kick in during Warrior's Charge.

Btw, GG Ninja'ing in a link.

[Sevv]

Sev, I think you just made the mistake of thinking that Warriors simply don't have Aggressor unless they merit it. Even if I have ZERO merits but the best gear in the game, I'll have Aggressor up for 3 minutes.



I was more going on the fact if it last longer then 3min your acc starts to fail alot harder then other war with serk/agg merits. Double/Triple attack is utterly useless if you can't hit the target.

[Amele]

Sev, I think you just made the mistake of thinking that Warriors simply don't have Aggressor unless they merit it. Even if I have ZERO merits but the best gear in the game, I'll have Aggressor up for 3 minutes.
C.D., I think it's more a factor of the difference in behavior between Ridill and Sea weapons -- not Double attack and Warrior's Charge. Order of Operations:
You swing
-did your Zilart Multi-hit proc? if yes, terminate further procs. If no, continue...
-did Double Attack trait activate?
-did Sea Weapon activate?
What Warrior's Charge would do (in this model) is say "you MUST perform double attack as the trait." Since the trait cannot work with Ridill/Kraken/Soboro, those abilities are supressed. However, since Sea 2A and Warrior 2A can and do coexist, it's a simple enough matter for Fortitude to kick in during Warrior's Charge.


this is exactly what I meant.

warrior's charge forces a 2A (as trait) so this precludes a ridill/kraken proc. (since the two are exclusive) since the 2A trait *can* stack with sea weapon, the weapon still checks as normal.

it's much more obvious with samurai, since sam/thf|sam/rng and sam/war have the same triple attack rate with soboro but wildly different double attack rates. (sam/x has a slightly inflated double attack rate, regardless, but it's much less than a war/nin main would have with a ridill.)

edit: I was more going on the fact if it last longer then 3min your acc starts to fail alot harder then other war with serk/agg merits. Double/Triple attack is utterly useless if you can't hit the target.

depending on how far your accuracy falls, the double attack merits may still make up for it (this is the thrust of hank's math, actually - how much of a difference does aggressor need to make before double attack can't keep up/outperform?)

[Lmnop]

I was more going on the fact if it last longer then 3min your acc starts to fail alot harder then other war with serk/agg merits. Double/Triple attack is utterly useless if you can't hit the target.

except that the merits just reduce recast -- both example warriors will have 3 minutes of bergressor. So if RandomNM is dead in 4 minutes or less, the aggressor merits will have done no good.

That said, that's a very niche thing to judge off of. One of those things I meant to make note of, not derail conversation towards. :D

And while it's true that low acc = less use out of double attack, you could technically say that more multi-attacks serve the same purpose as high accuracy. Though the higher your accuracy, the more useful double attack becomes.

[Sevv]

We can sum it up really as this:

Aggressor V. Double Attack Merits:

Aggressor: Standard easy to notice improvement, (Timer cool down is reduced to 1:10)
Double Attack: +5% Increase in Proc, tho hard to notice and can in theory not go off 5 extra swings out of 100, or can go off more then 5 extra swings out of 100.

When it comes to merit parties these two choices have little difference between one another. The only true place you will notice any difference is on Acc % on hnm lasting more then one cycle of Aggressor.

[Celeal]

IMHO, either way works as long as the player is willing to make it happens, and the situation allows it to happen....

[Hankthetank]

I was more going on the fact if it last longer then 3min your acc starts to fail alot harder then other war with serk/agg merits. Double/Triple attack is utterly useless if you can't hit the target.People keep saying this and its a poor arguement. People keep acting like a Warrior can't hit anything without aggressor which is a total falsehood. I parse at 90% eatting meat, and I have 0 aggressor merits. An extra 7 minutes an hour isn't going to make me able to melee stuff I couldn't before, its going to boost my Acc by 1.5% overall, at most, in theory. In reality I get even less since agressor will make me hit the soft cap on Acc when it is up. I dont even use aggressor everytime it is up and just save it for more evasive mobs (Mnk/Nin/Thf) which is the only time I need it. If you can't hit mobs without aggressor you need to suck less.

When it comes to merit parties these two choices have little difference between one another. The only true place you will notice any difference is on Acc % on hnm lasting more then one cycle of Aggressor.This is wrong as well, for all intents and purposes you will notice the differance anytime you are fighitng for more than 3 minutes continueously, as in a merit party. A merit party is effectivly one long fight, against a large number of mobs.

Another false arguement is that somehow having maxed aggressor somehow gets you more out of berserk since they stack where you gain no such advantage out of DA merits. DA takes full advantage of Berserk just like agressor AND is active when Aggressor is not. Landing 1 more hit that you would have missed due to aggressor has exactly the same effect on your DoT as landing 1 more Hit because you Double attacked. Both Double attack and Aggressor accomplish the same thing in the end. More damage from more hits, aggressor does this by helping you miss less, and Double attack by giving you the oppurtnity to swing more often. The advantage to DA merits is they are ALWAYS active.

As far as HNMs and needing Aggressor to TP on them, this yet another commonly used weak arguement. Big HNMs where you'd have trouble hitting you can still get a 90% hit rate by eatting sushi and wearing Acc gear. Seriously, on any mob you are having so much difficulty you "Have" to have aggresor to eat meat just to hit a 85% hit rate your melee damage is going to be useless anyhow. Your job in these situations is to get TP and make SCs, eatting sushi with an ACC build is the best way to do this, not relying on aggressor so you are only effective 74% of the time so you can eat meat and hit for 40 instead of 20. Be smart make SCs and leave the damage to the BLM.

The only possible way Aggressor merits are maybe prefered are if you using Rid/Joy war in a merit party. On any moderately difficult HNM, Rid/Joy is going to be frowned upon due the massive TP it feeds a mob. And lets be honest, does it realyl matter at this point? A Rid/Joy war is already such a force in merit parties increasing it's potency really is going to have zero effect on XP/Hour. DA/Zerk is the stronger merit setup and covers anyone without a ridill and HNMs which is at least 95% of the time for 95% of the Warrior population.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Tokitoki]

When you are trying to speed kill an HNM, though, your goal is to be able to keep your Haste gear on with your normal food (mine in this case is meat). But using a Haste Setup with meat you will naturally have a lower accuracy rate, no argument in that, but this is where Agressor merits help.
Some people may say "Oh, if you're trying to do a speed kill it should be dead in xx amount of time," but that is not always the case. This is where the Aggressor merits start to kick in more, where ideally you are still using a Haste Setup with meat, have Madrigal from a BRD, and have Bregressor up for (hopefully) the majority of the fight.
Madrigal is not going to get you to capped acc, as you can see on merit mobs as an example. Even on merit mobs, which admittedly have varying AGI and Evasion, you can use Haste + Meat and have Madrigal but not always hit the acc cap. Taking that same basis and putting it to HNMs that have higher base AGI and Evasion you are even less likely to hit the acc cap.

EDIT: Also about Swords, even offhanding a Joy or Ridill to an Axe will make your accuracy suffer slightly. In this case the lower base damage, lower base accuracy, and lower base attack will all benefit from having Bergressor up as much as possible while still increasing DoT from the Mainhand Axe.

[Amele]

again though, it's not like warrior doesn't have aggressor without meriting it.

the question is whether +5% double attack is better or worse than 5 merits worth of recast reduction on aggressor.

quite frankly, Hank's numbers have me convinced that if you're going to go 'all the way' in one of the two, that DA is the way to go (esp. if you use axe/axe or gaxe)

[Sevv]

again though, it's not like warrior doesn't have aggressor without meriting it.

Same goes with Double Attack.


the question is whether +5% double attack is better or worse than 5 merits worth of recast reduction on aggressor.
quite frankly, Hank's numbers have me convinced that if you're going to go 'all the way' in one of the two, that DA is the way to go (esp. if you use axe/axe or gaxe)

We can all agree on the fact that, this will not be decided here at all.

[Amele]

Same goes with Double Attack.

not that anyone has been implying otherwise throughout this thread (it being almost entirely about hitting the accuracy cap and not actually about dot comparisons.)

[Sevv]

My view is axe/sword berserk/aggressor axe/axe berserk/double attack.


About as simple as it goes I'm sticking with my view still.


Merit Pt For Man-Eater/ Joyeuse (ridill)

Berserk and Aggressor will provide a better parse.


Merit Pt for Wood/Man or Man/Jug

Berserk and Double Attack will do better.

Merits are situational, per person and per what you use. I will only /slap someone who merits defender.

[Tokitoki]

And with Brutal Earring you already have a 15% DA rate, which is enough for me to warrant using Full Bergressor merits.

[Sevv]

my gear set looks like this

Main: Man-Eater
Off: Joyeuse
Ammo: Bomb Core
Head: Walhra Turban ---> Adaman Celeta (ws)
L.Ear: Brutal ----> Triumph Earring (ws)
R.Ear: Suppa ----> Triumph Earring (ws)
Neck: Pcc
Body: Hauberk
Back: Amemet Mantle +1
Hands: War Af2 ----> Hecatomb Mittens (ws)
L.Ring: Rajas
R.Ring: Sniper
Waist: Swift Belt ----> Potent Belt (ws)
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Unicorn Leggings


good amount of double attack, 271 sword skill and 285 axe skill. Kind of why I'm going ber/agg more for the hnm side of things and that i off hand sword.

[Tokitoki]

My setups atm are in my sig. I have 3 Bergresoor Merits, capped crit capped axe. After I cap bergressor I'm capping sword and using my Joyeuse for merits. For HNM I'll be keeping my Woodville's or possibly buy a Juggy.

[Hankthetank]

When you are trying to speed kill an HNM, though, your goal is to be able to keep your Haste gear on with your normal food (mine in this case is meat). But using a Haste Setup with meat you will naturally have a lower accuracy rate, no argument in that, but this is where Agressor merits help.
If you use the same setup on HNM and merits you fail. You dress for the situation, you can't honestly tell me than having Agressor merits is all you need to TP HMNs. You need a different setup for HNM than you for merits, really and seriously. Learn to dress youerself for the occasion, you'll be a better War for it.
Some people may say "Oh, if you're trying to do a speed kill it should be dead in xx amount of time," but that is not always the case. This is where the Aggressor merits start to kick in more, where ideally you are still using a Haste Setup with meat, have Madrigal from a BRD, and have Bregressor up for (hopefully) the majority of the fight.
Isn't the defenition of a speed kill to kill it fast? Kinda of a gimpy Speed kill if it takes you 40 minutes no? If you aren't killing it faster than you could with a SC burst setup why are you TP burning it? Once again you are getting 7 miuntes an HOUR. Nothing people TP burn takes an HOUR so you aren't even getting the full extra 7 MINUTES.
Madrigal is not going to get you to capped acc, as you can see on merit mobs as an example. Even on merit mobs, which admittedly have varying AGI and Evasion, you can use Haste + Meat and have Madrigal but not always hit the acc cap. Taking that same basis and putting it to HNMs that have higher base AGI and Evasion you are even less likely to hit the acc cap.
First if Madrigal isn't gettting you to cap on MERIT mobs how do you expect me to believe your EXTRA 7 MINUTES AN HOUR are making the differance (Compare Mad to Agressor not that big a differance)? Second who says hitting the ACC cap is the best thing for DoT? Now in regards to HNMs, here is some easy math for ya:
Whats the added Atk from Dual Min campared to the added Attack from Hedgehog Pie (which is my meat of choice).
Whats the added ACC from dual Mad compared to Sushi?
Are you still really trying to say that aggressor merits allow you to eat meat on HNMs where you can't without it? Do you really think you don't need a different gear setup for HNMs? HNMs are not Merit party mobs, you CANNOT wear the same gear and say "Well I got aggressor merits so its all good".
EDIT: Also about Swords, even offhanding a Joy or Ridill to an Axe will make your accuracy suffer slightly. In this case the lower base damage, lower base accuracy, and lower base attack will all benefit from having Bergressor up as much as possible while still increasing DoT from the Mainhand Axe.
If you need more acc in merit parties once again you need to suck less or eat sushi. Sushi os not automatically gimp, there are camps where even with my gear and merits I still eat sushi. Meats the goal but just by virtue of eatting meat you aren't going to automactically not suck. And they benfit HOW? I got a page of math of real numbers showing the opposite. Joyeuse offhand benefits MORE from DA merits than agressor merits.
About as simple as it goes I'm sticking with my view still.
Merit Pt For Man-Eater/ Joyeuse (ridill)
Berserk and Aggressor will provide a better parse.
WRONG. Joyeuse benefits more from DA/Zerk merits. I did the numbers. I'll worry about a ridill when I gt one. But you are more than intitled to stick to an incorrect view you can't even support.
"I'm still sticking to my view" = I can't possibly support my opinion anymore or come up with a decent counterpoint so I am just going to repeat myself.
Merit Pt for Wood/Man or Man/Jug
Berserk and Double Attack will do better.
It's not even close with dual axe, not by a long shot.
And with Brutal Earring you already have a 15% DA rate, which is enough for me to warrant using Full Bergressor merits.
And since I actually know how to dress myself for different situations, I don't need to rely on aggressor to not suck which is more than enough to merit Double Attack and actually make myself better.
L.Ear: Brutal ----> Triumph Earring (ws)
You are kidding me right? Who swaps out Brutal for 2 str? You just all credibility in my book.
good amount of double attack, 271 sword skill and 285 axe skill. Kind of why I'm going ber/agg more for the hnm side of things and that i off hand sword.
Define good? You are opting for a subpar merit catagory that has little to no effect on your overall preformance with the justification that you think you are good now? Why bother meriting at all then?

My setups atm are in my sig. I have 3 Bergressor Merits, capped crit capped axe. After I cap bergressor I'm capping sword and using my Joyeuse for merits. For HNM I'll be keeping my Woodville's or possibly buy a Juggy
So you don't have capped Berserk or Aggressor merits. You have 0 sword merits and decided yet feel you can say:
EDIT: Also about Swords, even offhanding a Joy or Ridill to an Axe will make your accuracy suffer slightly. In this case the lower base damage, lower base accuracy, and lower base attack will all benefit from having Bergressor up as much as possible while still increasing DoT from the Mainhand Axe.
How could you possibly know? You are just spouting back what you hear without any experiance in the matter.
I have a full page of math, and endless parses of myself against other fully merited warriors that have 5/5 Bergressor merits. How much weight would you give a person who wants to comment on the effectiveness of merits they don't have on weapons they don't use.

If you have an actual point or something to support your claims that Bergressor is better then please by all means post, I want to hear it. Make a good point and I'll acknowledge it. If there is a flaw in my math or logic once again by all means post, I'll take my hat off to you and admit I was wrong. But if you can't counter any points or support your arguements, why bother posting? You are merely parroting what the bandwagon Warrior community thinks without giving it any thought what so ever.
Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[IfritnoItazura]

=/ This thread is a borderline flame fest now.

[Tokitoki]

I'm not going to lie... I typed out a whole long post for you which included correcting your spelling as I read through it, countering said "facts" you know about me, and otehr such things, but in the process I seemed to have been logged out and my entire post was lost.

SO! Here's what we're gonna do. You're gonig to calm down and stop being so defensive and stop flaming people and assuming things about others. I'm going to ask to see these parses with some of the following questions in mind:

What was the outcome of each parse?
What merits did each person have?
Did you also have these merits?
What food did each person use?
Did anyone go AFK during a few fights during these parties?
Did everyone start attacking at the same time?
Were all participants similarly equipped or equipped the same exact way?
Did anyone use their 2hr which could skew results of the parses?
Did anyone die leaving them out of the parse for 5 minutes?
-----Did anyone die and continue to melee keeping them on the DoT cycle, but lowering it significantly?
Did everyone receive Haste?
Was anyone ever missed in the Haste cycle?

And as for your calculations:

What does the % DoT really translate to? If it is a percent more of the damage then the numbers over a normal merit party time frame could nearly be considered "meaningless."

For example:

In a normal merit party you fight well over a hundred mobs (in a good one at least). This could be equal to something like 25,000 damage? Can we agree on this? 2% of this 25,000 is 500 (25000*.02). 500 damage over the frame of over a hundred mobs could be less than 5 extra damage per mob.

So you really need to explain what your %DoT is better than just throwing it up on the post and saying it's the end-all, be-all calculation that proves DA is better than Bergressor.

[Lmnop]

Calm down, fellas. Toki, you know what kind of suggestion you're making. You're basically saying "I want 10 parses that aren't actually exp as much as they are controlled science experiments" Which isn't feasible and you know it; thus you're really saying "Your parses will mean nothing" which really says "I will not be proven wrong." In Addition to the fact that by invalidating parses, you also invalidate Sev's claim.

I don't think this is really as much of a definite matter of right and wrong.

There's one factor that both sides of the argument are still missing: Not everyone has everything.

I, for instance, don't even have sea access -- let alone a Brutal Earring. This affects just how effective certain merits will be vs others for me. While I can say that if I do a lot of limbus and assaults and I never camped charby, that I'll be at my best building for axe/axe or... whatever; well that's dandy. But if I'm hardcore HNMist and I've been camping ground NMs for the last 2 years, then it's about expected that I have a Ridill by now.

Hank, stop tossing around the word "suck" and "fail."

I like you guys, let's not make this end regrettable.

[Tokitoki]

I'm not asking for new parses, I'm asking to see the parses he is talking about and make him think about the questions I asked.

Little Edit(which turned into a large edit): I want to know the outcomes of the parses and see how his merits are really affecting his performance. While he knocks my setup and my merits, I have actually been able to outparse a Ridill WAR or two, but since I didn't know how to save or upload parses on that particular parser I can't show it. SO I guess you will just have to flame me and say I'm a liar about that too.

And for the record DVS Parse is better than that parser with the unhappy computer as an icon. <.< That unhappy computer parser is the one I used to use and not know how to save/upload from.