Right now the party situation is pretty damn bad. I've been LFP for the last 3 days straight with 2 failed parties that I had to make with whatever was seeking.


I swear, it's getting to be near impossible to level BLM these days. No body wants us for EXP, and tanks are becoming increasingly hard to find whenever I try to build a PT.


So, what's SE doing about any of this?

Right now the party situation is pretty damn bad. I've been LFP for the last 3 days straight with 2 failed parties that I had to make with whatever was seeking.


I swear, it's getting to be near impossible to level BLM these days. No body wants us for EXP, and tanks are becoming increasingly hard to find whenever I try to build a PT.


So, what's SE doing about any of this?


I've noticed a similar occurance on Laksami server, but with whm(and to a small degree healers). It seems like the jobs most available are drg, nin, war, and blm.

Easy solution. Remove TP parties and/or move Utsusemi: Ni to level 38.

Nah. The solution is "Static Party". Have one, and you'd never have to look for a party.

* * *

There is precious little S-E can do about imbalance of job distribution without being heavy handed.

On the other hand, the company may be able to help out BLM's a bit if they adjust the game to bring back skillchain and magic burst's popularity, but that would require some combination of: 1) making exp monsters tougher; 2) lower the effectiveness of WS spam--i.e. lower the power of WS's, and 3) make MB'ed spells more effective.

Of the three, only the third one would cause little to no uproar, but it would be the least effective method to bring back SC+MB. The just first and the second together can easily do the job, and the ensuring mass whining about being nerfed and FFXI turned into a total grind would be funny... Not healthy, but surely funny to look at...

What's SE doing about this?

No.. what are the players doing about this.


What many people fail to understand is, not all parties need to be what they've come to believe is a normal party. You know, the normal set up: MNK WAR NIN BLM WHM RDM? Something like that. There's lots of other ways to exp, lots of job combos, tanks are not really needed anymore. Either is a Refresher.

So what is SE doing about this?


Nothing, it's not an issue. No matter what they do, someone will find something else to complain about, something that THEY as a player can easily avoid by taking a different route.


An easy solution to your problem would be to either manaburn, get a static together, solo, do escort quests, whatever, do it all, think outside of the box.


And yes, many jobs are unbalanced, some 'over-powered', some 'gimp' or what you guys love to call 'nerfed.' But every job has a situation where they'll excell more than the other. If all jobs where equally balanced, to a point, the game would be boring, there would be no diversity. Where's the fun in that?

I solod BLM from 51-63 which I am currently. You didn't mention what level your BLM is but there are solo guides all over. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Black_Mage_Solo_Guide_by_Lion_heart Here is a address to one in fact. I solod 60k exp in two days in Bibiki Bay. May even want to try BLM burn parties or even dou with someone. My exp/hr solo is so amazing and fast that I actually turn down party invites.

An easy solution to your problem would be to either manaburn, get a static together, solo, do escort quests, whatever, do it all, think outside of the box.

And I suppose forming TP burn parties is thinking outside of the box? In all honesty, looking at your sig, I can see you're melee heavy in your favoritism. Therefore, is your response genuinely unbiased?

Therefore, is your response genuinely unbiased?

Yes, my response is unbiased.

My BLM is Lv.75, so don't think for one second that I don't know where he's coming from, posting this subject. I thought plenty of times *to myself*, "Wow, BLM really isn't popular in end game EXP."


I'm simply offering him help on how to make his next move.

Honestly, there's not really much SE can do to fix the TP Burn fad everyone is crazy about. There's always going to be new methods of playing this game that leaves someone out in the cold. Although, that being said, I do acknowledge that what's going on with the Aht Urghan expansion is a serious problem.

Tipsy actually had a good point. Square isn't responsible for the situation that's happening in game because we're doing it to ourselves. Who decided that Black Mages and Skillchains were useless now? We did. Who said that Warrior wasn't a tank, Blue Mage is DPS only, CoP was too hard, the old areas are gimped, etc.? We did.

Final Fantasy XI: Online is a game that's deeply rooted in community and team work. If anything needs to change, it's our own attitudes about what we want the game to be; it doesn't have anything to do with Square.

Honestly, there's not really much SE can do to fix the TP Burn fad everyone is crazy about.
Oh, yes there is. They just aren't doing it.

Make difficult monsters worth more exp/hr than pathetic weaklings, and you'll see people move away from TP burns - because they really don't work all that well against monsters that fight back.

How many TP burns do you know that are willing to pull the wyverns near Mamool Ja Staging Point? Even those aren't as difficult as an IT mob is to level 60s. But TP burns can't handle monsters that can hurt you, because they don't have a real tank - sometimes not a full-time healer either - and aren't controlling their hate.

It's the weakness of the monsters that makes some tactics more effective than others, and it's the high exp value/difficulty ratio of weak monsters that makes them the favored exp/merit targets.
There's always going to be new methods of playing this game that leaves someone out in the cold. Although, that being said, I do acknowledge that what's going on with the Aht Urghan expansion is a serious problem.
Tipsy actually had a good point. Square isn't responsible for the situation that's happening in game because we're doing it to ourselves. Who decided that Black Mages and Skillchains were useless now? We did. Who said that Warrior wasn't a tank, Blue Mage is DPS only, CoP was too hard, the old areas are gimped, etc.? We did.
Not really. There is a real, measurable (and in fact, huge) difference in exp/hr return between fighting IT Kindred and fighting low-VT imps and flies - and the easy fights are worth more. Some people would take on difficult fights for better rewards and others would stay on the path of least resistance, but when the easy way gives you better rewards, very very few people are going to want to step off it.

The accessibility of TAU exp areas plays some role too, but if you could get better exp in Uleg, I think people would go. It's the fact that you spend 15 minutes getting there just to make worse exp from harder fights that makes it "gimped".

When a traditional party fighting difficult mobs makes 8-10k/hr and a TP burn fighting imps and flies makes 15-20k/hr, I don't think you can just say it's the players' fault they only want to TP burn.
Final Fantasy XI: Online is a game that's deeply rooted in community and team work. If anything needs to change, it's our own attitudes about what we want the game to be; it doesn't have anything to do with Square.
Player behavior does matter, but the players will learn and repeat what gets results, and it's SE who decides what gets the best results.

Most of the time I'd agree with that but not in this case. While it is in part our fault, the main reason is that the EXP/hour of even the weakest TP burns far exceeds what you can get in the old areas, and as such no one wants to bother with them. People want the most bang for their buck, as is evidenced by the recent Census (78% of all players play for 1-3 hours or less at a time)

I might have been a bit hasty in saying that everything is our fault, and not Square's. I should explain: They should go back and change the exp for harder mobs, but I really don't think they will. A good majority of the game doesn't want them to change it. Wasn't there an iterview with Square and they said that they didn't feel it was necessary to change the way parties were going nowadays?

I wasn't talking Level 75 merit burns only, I meant the entire game as a whole. I completely undestand the insane amount of exp you can pull in Caedarva Mire on imps (which is broken imo) versus Demons in Uleguerand Range or Weapons in Ro'Maeve.

But when a group in the mid-levels wants to stay in overcramped Aht Urghan on a busy night, and would rather drop party instead of just sucking it up and going somewhere else, it's a problem. Especially, from my experience, I got roughly the same amount of exp in those areas, or sometimes even more so with a proper setup. Just like how the Burn mentality has managed to trickle down, and people are refusing to skillchain in Crawler's Nest of all places is ridiculous.

Square should make changes but we have to want things to change first.

Right now the party situation is pretty damn bad. I've been LFP for the last 3 days straight with 2 failed parties that I had to make with whatever was seeking.
I swear, it's getting to be near impossible to level BLM these days. No body wants us for EXP, and tanks are becoming increasingly hard to find whenever I try to build a PT.
So, what's SE doing about any of this?

If your character info is right your currently a 24ish blm. I soloed from 25-30 in one afternoon out in Yhoatar Jungle on my blm. Was fun fast and great exp I turned down pt invites. Low level parties are always a bit harder to get in general, tp burns have nothing to do with pre 55ish exp. And At blm 51 the solo exp/hr is amazing it is much quicker then parties. Again the low levels =/= the whole game. S-E doesn't need to do any thing about this expect maybe increase the exp while soloing, which would help out blm and be the beastmaster fix that is wanted.


Easy solution. Remove TP parties and/or move Utsusemi: Ni to level 38.

Calling for the removal of tp burn parties, is just sad. If you can't always benefit from it then it should be removed. While at it lets remove magic because when I am on War/Thf, I can't use magic so lets get rid of magic. I know its a bit extreme to relate but, think about it. In order to merit/exp you don't have to make a tp burn. The jobs that are unfavored in Tp burns were the same jobs that where getting shunned before the TP burn craze.

You can say they "nerfed" manaburns but what effect did it have on manaburn leveling...


Oh, yes there is. They just aren't doing it.
Make difficult monsters worth more exp/hr than pathetic weaklings, and you'll see people move away from TP burns - because they really don't work all that well against monsters that fight back.

I think we have been over this the two of us before. The better Tp burn parties kill the IT mamjool @ nyzule isle. Great exp and at a burn rate, good merits making melee more effective. And if you have skilled people you can kill mobs that fight back, lol @ puk burn only.


How many TP burns do you know that are willing to pull the wyverns near Mamool Ja Staging Point? Even those aren't as difficult as an IT mob is to level 60s. But TP burns can't handle monsters that can hurt you, because they don't have a real tank - sometimes not a full-time healer either - and aren't controlling their hate.

My TP burn party was pulling wyverns all night, I tanked them on my war with no issues at all. IT in the 60's depend what you fight remember just it and it++ a big differance.

It's the weakness of the monsters that makes some tactics more effective than others, and it's the high exp value/difficulty ratio of weak monsters that makes them the favored exp/merit targets.

Of course you target a mobs weakness, Hi2u Blm party @ ebony puddings, or Hi2u Sc and Mb that does more damage in sky.

Not really. There is a real, measurable (and in fact, huge) difference in exp/hr return between fighting IT Kindred and fighting low-VT imps and flies - and the easy fights are worth more. Some people would take on difficult fights for better rewards and others would stay on the path of least resistance, but when the easy way gives you better rewards, very very few people are going to want to step off it.

The reason people go for the easy reward even if you up the exp/hr on demons is that ToAU hasn't destroyed the game, the whole expansion saved FFXI for the casual gamer. Tp burn is used by the "hardcore" gamer as a quick fix to meriting multiple jobs, and just having fun. You can't argue ffxi lost alot of people to the more casual WoW. ToAU brought back alot of players and helped give this game a broader appeal.

The accessibility of TAU exp areas plays some role too, but if you could get better exp in Uleg, I think people would go. It's the fact that you spend 15 minutes getting there just to make worse exp from harder fights that makes it "gimped".

I am going to agree here even if they put the exp/hr up in old zones its much easier to just use the runic portal and be at camp. It is a very hard fix. Getting a rep to go to an old camp can take a long time.

When a traditional party fighting difficult mobs makes 8-10k/hr and a TP burn fighting imps and flies makes 15-20k/hr, I don't think you can just say it's the players' fault they only want to TP burn.
Player behavior does matter, but the players will learn and repeat what gets results, and it's SE who decides what gets the best results.

Tp burns in mire are just weak I'm sorry, if you can only burn in the mire you need check your skill/gear. The players had the choice to tp burn or "standard" party, they made thier choice and benefit from the 15k+/hr. If s-e removes the tp burn gimps out aht urghan exp like you all want, you will see the death of casual gamers in FFXI again which will hurt the game alot.

OK, and here is where I go making friends again.

I am of the opinion that the casual gamer hurts the game. While I don't deny that having a larger playerbase benefits us all because it makes SE want to continue the game, I also see what the casual does.

Casual gamers are a majority of your gilbuyers. Your Mr. "I'm too good to camp this NM for this item", or "who needs to farm when I can buy the gil for what I want" do alot of harm. This is not to say that all casual gamers are gilbuyers, or vice versa. In almost every intelligent discussion I've read regarding gilbuying this was the most often used rationalization.

Casual gamers are often the people that have to have a party nearly fully assembled in order to participate. They also are the ones that if XP isn't meeting their expectations have "connection issues". Casual gamers should realize that endgame, is not the game. If you need to be PL'd beyond level 32, then that means you should learn your job and how to co-operate with others. The mad dash to get to level 75 without taking the time to get there just means you get people at endgame that don't know their jobs, and goddess forbid you should mention that too them.

TP burns are just another progression of the notion that I have to get there "NOW". This isn't a console game, it doesn't end. If you finish every quest, obtain every item, level everything to 75 with max merits and max experience, the only thing you have accomplished is running out of things to do for yourself.

TP burns are bad, so where manaburns, arrowburns, shadowburns, and every other burn party conceived. The game is about playing it, not about reaching whatever end the player perceives. You don't win a medal or a million Yen/Dollars/Pounds/Rupees/whatever for finishing a game that wasn't designed to end. So just play the game, instead of rushing to get past it so quickly. My opinion is if you are trying to hard to fly through game then I should help. Here is my secret for conquering FFXI:

Consider yourself the master at it and stop playing it as soon as possible, because only then will you be finished with it.

I am of the opinion that the casual gamer hurts the game. While I don't deny that having a larger playerbase benefits us all because it makes SE want to continue the game, I also see what the casual does.

.....otherstuff..... Etc.



Ok, keep in mind I find your post highly offensive and highly insulting, and while I will do my best to be civil some things may come across as being rather harsh.

I am a casual gamer being that I play about 3-4 hours a week now, maybe more maybe less. I do not need a party setup for me, I know how to make my own, I've been making my own since day 1, and I was one of the first to be saying that fighting and chaining VT mobs quickly was better than slowly killing and hopefully chaining IT mobs for crying out loud. If exp is not meeting my expectations I figure out why and how to improve it. However since I do not go to crowded exp locations, and I setup good parties, this is generally not the issue.

I know a ton of other *casual* gamers who do not fit your criteria, kindly do not make broad sweeping assumptions and generalizations. What you just posted is little better than saying nin > pld or all NA buy gilzorz and should be banned.

You're making a lot of bold assumptions and blanket statements in that post, Insert. Not a lot of it has any basis in fact.

Casual gamers are a majority of your gilbuyers.

Er, where do you get the data that it's the casual players who buy Gil?

Casual gamers don't even want to buy those $60 console games, much less dropping $1000 on fake "virtual" money... Only hardcore people who get caught up in this game would think it's worthwhile to dump in hundreds of dollars on top of monthly fees for in-game currency.

Casual gamers are often the people that have to have a party nearly fully assembled in order to participate.
LOL. Casual players don't even bother to ask what's in the party before saying "yes." The word you're looking for is "picky".

They also are the ones that if XP isn't meeting their expectations have "connection issues".
Those are "jerks," and plenty of hardcore players act that way.

TP burns are bad, so where manaburns, arrowburns, shadowburns, and every other burn party conceived.
There is nothing wrong with specialized exp parties ("burn" setups), unless one type works so well that it makes everything else seem terrible. It's good to have a variety play styles, IMO, and S-E should add more exp monsters/camps good for parties with diverse jobs and roles (i.e. "balanced"), and stop favoring WS spam parties so much.

Maybe the tone seems harsh, and a bit generalized. That is part of my point though. There will always be exceptions, I am not desiring to start a flame war.

For every person that is stuck now with the current burn trend, they were sticking it to others before. I am not trying to offend anyone, but listen to the people that speak up about things in game.

My OPINION on casual players is just that, my opinion...and I thought I'd share it. You are entitled to yours as well, I am not aware of your experiences.

As far as broad sweeping generalizations, this whole thread is based on the generalization that TP burn is bad and it must be stopped with people voicing THEIR opinions about it.

And my basis of the gilbuying comment came from all of the various threads on many different forums about gilbuying, and those who defended it more often than not, were casual players.

If I offended anyone, I apologize it was not the purpose of my post. I didn't recall singling anyone out in particular, and did try and keep it open ended enough that it didn't do so.

I think its still immensely hypocritical of SE to have nerf RNG so hard two years ago and not do a thing about TP burn trends. You can't look at that nerf or even the adjustment that finally came and tell my RNGs didn't ultimately get a raw deal when you look at EXP PTs doing the EXACT SAME THING RNGs were punished for.

SE's stance that they intended the zones to be like this is pure bullshit, you're kidding yourself if you really believed them when they said they wanted these trends to take place. They made a mistake and now that its popular for everyone to exploit these mobs they are frightened to reverse that mistake.

But I'm going to say this guys, I do just fine at my job, as do BLMs. I have no problems keeping my RNG's EXP capped and merritted.

However, I'm kinda tired hearing people act like a WHM, PLD, BLM, SMN, RNG or what-have-you in their merit PT being like a fly in thier soup. Because WHO IS IT you turn to when you need the big monsters killed and the steady DoT. Who is it you call to tank or heal you?

Uh, that would be WHM, PLD, BLM, SMN and RNG.

And don't even get me started on your lolDRKing. Who is it you turn to for that utterly broken, K Club Burn deal?

Oh right, DRK. How is helping a DRK in your LS going to slow you down? Some of my best merit PTs had DRKs. They're good w/o K Clubs, too.

Give em love, people.

Casual gamers are a majority of your gilbuyers. Your Mr. "I'm too good to camp this NM for this item", or "who needs to farm when I can buy the gil for what I want" do alot of harm. This is not to say that all casual gamers are gilbuyers, or vice versa. In almost every intelligent discussion I've read regarding gilbuying this was the most often used rationalization.
This is a difference between "most gil buyers are casual gamers" and "most casual gamers are gil buyers". Also, you seem to imply that hard core gamers never buy gil, which I don't buy. If anything, I would expect casual gamers to be less likely to buy gil than hard core gamers. If you are only playing this game casually, why further invest real money into it? It's the hard core gamers who spend so many hours in this game who would get more bang out of their gil buying buck.

If your character info is right your currently a 24ish blm. I soloed from 25-30 in one afternoon out in Yhoatar Jungle on my blm. Was fun fast and great exp I turned down pt invites. Low level parties are always a bit harder to get in general, tp burns have nothing to do with pre 55ish exp. And At blm 51 the solo exp/hr is amazing it is much quicker then parties. Again the low levels =/= the whole game. S-E doesn't need to do any thing about this expect maybe increase the exp while soloing, which would help out blm and be the beastmaster fix that is wanted.


Yes it's up to date, but I posted this some time ago and it was in reference to my Tarutaru Hanyou, whom I've decided to stop leveling altogether (finally)




I think its still immensely hypocritical of SE to have nerf RNG so hard two years ago and not do a thing about TP burn trends. You can't look at that nerf or even the adjustment that finally came and tell my RNGs didn't ultimately get a raw deal when you look at EXP PTs doing the EXACT SAME THING RNGs were punished for.


Thank freaking GOD I'm not the only one who is pissed off at this. SE neuters my favorite job, only so that other jobs can do the exact same thing at no consequence? I call BULL SHIT on SE.

SE was saying they're working on new ways for us to EXP, so I'm hoping that by no later than WotG's release we'll have new camps and strategies. I think there should be an EXP bonus on IT mobs from Signet to encourage the old SC + MB style parties.

Getting rid of TP burns would be stupid. It's a great way for melee jobs to gather and churn out huge amounts of EXP. What needs to happen is to give the same opportunities to more kinds of parties so that there aren't any jobs getting excluded from the prosperity.


Oh, and SE may as well go and undo the ranged nerfing now to be honest. Missions aside (which have already been toned down immensely recently, IMO) I seriously doubt it would affect end game EXP all that much. Even with RNG doing the damage it used to against VT and IT mobs, I doubt they can keep up with WAR and MNK nowadays. I could be wrong, but why should one job class suffer while the other DD are getting away with murder?

I'm still of the opinion that it was the multi hit TP nerf that caused things to spiral out of control the way they have. You think RNG would have ever gotten so popular otherwise? You think WAR and MNK would be rocking TP burns? Hell no. It would be DRG and SAM owning the mire with penta thrust these days.

I'm not saying that would necessarily be a good thing, but SE did state that they would be tweaking multi hit WS in the future again. They didn't say how, just that they would.


Who knows? Maybe they'll sober up and try to fix the mess that is end game EXP.

I think its still immensely hypocritical of SE to have nerf RNG so hard two years ago and not do a thing about TP burn trends. You can't look at that nerf or even the adjustment that finally came and tell my RNGs didn't ultimately get a raw deal when you look at EXP PTs doing the EXACT SAME THING RNGs were punished for.
Thank freaking GOD I'm not the only one who is pissed off at this. SE neuters my favorite job, only so that other jobs can do the exact same thing at no consequence? I call BULL SHIT on SE.

Indeed, but sadly the RNG nerf was due to all those players crying and complaining about it. Although I wouldn't be surprised if SE used arrow-burn parties as the prototypes for Aht Urgan's xp camps.

http://www.dhampton.com/weblog/GGandT/Images/nerfgun.jpeg

This is what SE uses, eh?

Great, another KI reject.

Insert, congratulations, I don't think I've read such undiluted drivel in a long time, you actually beat my previous expectations of how far from reality a person could be.

As for the subject at hand, I believe they need to stamp out burn parties. However, S-E know about the problem then go and release an expansion that caters to three figure limit breaks which people consistently achieve. I don't know how they can in all conscience claim to support the, "Don't forget about your family and friends" message they slap on their game and then put the scripts in for limit breaks than can only be obtained by ridiculously unhealthy hours of unbroken gaming. Unless I'm wrong here and you can achieve limit 173 for example in an hour or over a few hours with breaks away from the screen.

As I've said many times before, increase the level on Utsusemi: Ni and you go a long way to removing the burn parties. Problem is then, all the burn party favourite jobs cry into their cornflakes and the subscription numbers fall. And, as I said above, if S-E wanted to discourage burn parties why did they introduce an expansion that is a burn party's wet dream?

Oh, and SE may as well go and undo the ranged nerfing now to be honest.
Didn't they kinda sorta do that already? Or something to that effect.

And Grizzle is right, the number of fools who are milking this situation (Dare I call it that.) out-number the fools complaining. If SE turns the tables, they will have shot themselves in the face.

And my basis of the gilbuying comment came from all of the various threads on many different forums about gilbuying, and those who defended it more often than not, were casual players.

Your post is a self-abortion purely due to the fact that if you've made it to 75 in FFXI, you are ANYTHING but a casual gamer. "Casual gamer" is elitist nonsense best saved for IGN, Neo-GAF or, worse, GameFAQs. Go there and talk about casual gamers or, better yet, go play in traffic.

Er... Too much hostility in this thread. @_@

I don't think it was RNG's performance in exp parties which really concerned S-E; it's their "end game" damage ability which S-E was likely focusing on. (Range attack didn't used to have level penalty like melee attack, right?) Toning down "arrow burn" was just a bonus.

* * *

Insert, I think you misread the casual gamers; they may not care much about "earning status", and would not disapprove of gil buying as much--but that doesn't mean they'd want to spend their own money on it. Why? Because they don't care enough to open their wallets.

I watch a few sports game a year on TV, but I don't understand why people get obsessive about many sports. I've nothing against football pools, basketball team t-shirts, sport magazines, or baseball season tickets (except a certain team who won't use its home city name).

But, I won't wouldn't spend money on any of those. That make me a casual sport viewer. That's what casual means--I may indulge from time to time, but I usually have better things to spend my money on.

Are there casual players buying from RMT? Most likely. Are most RMT customers casual players? Very unlikely--hard to see people who don't obsess over in-game anything buy gil en mass. >_>

If anything, day they make Ni higher in level is the day they release something new to take its place in effectiveness, but hard to obtian than rare relic from dynamis. I rarely merit these days, why? Tired of always getting;
Leader>> {Party} {Do you need it?}
Me>> {Where?}
Leader>> {Caedarva Mire}
Me>> {No thanks.}
Even though the entire time lfp my /seacom ALWAYS states, {Caedarva Mire} = {No thanks.} >_>;;;;
People are lazy, espically the "hardcore" TPbuners. If anyone digs up that post I had a while back with the guy saying old areas are too weak(party chat log screenshot, think its under pet peeves thread), its the same story every where I turn. Old areas are just too overlooked and its almost impossible to make a good standard type party for them. Never any blms lfp when tanks are, never any refreshs at the same time as whms. Though if you're lucky you might get a standard party set up in the ToAU areas. Those hands down can easily beat the TP burn kill rate. THF(or sam/thf), sc opener w/o or w/ SATA, Tank, blm or smn bp mb, refresh, whm can easily chain 5 mobs just because of the high numbers of Darkness or Light topped with AM II, Tier 3/4 or BPs (or in pld/whm case for light, Holy/Banish III). Just a matter of knowning how to do stuff, sadly, none of that these days.

Though if they take away Ni, not only is it the most casual drop people go after for a reason to do BCNMs, which is less gil for someone to make when they are a BCNM lover for the very reason, but soloing is gonna be harder if not unsafe on thf for farming >_>; I can easily pull on any sub with thf, done it with /sam, /war(fav), /drg, its all just a matter of making sure I'm father from the mob before it catches me or maxing out in eva gear.

Meh, I got nothing else /semirant.

Casual gamers are a majority of your gilbuyers. Your Mr. "I'm too good to camp this NM for this item", or "who needs to farm when I can buy the gil for what I want" do alot of harm. This is not to say that all casual gamers are gilbuyers, or vice versa. In almost every intelligent discussion I've read regarding gilbuying this was the most often used rationalization.

This may be your opinion but a far higher majority of gil buyers are hard core gamers. You can't say they aren't hardcore gamers because they buy gil, they are the same hardcore gamers who bot/hack/mpk. their is a good amount of relic weapon who are upgraded thru purchased gil/stolen gil gear from accounts. While looking at this we are going to have to say casual gamers do some buy gil of course but on average they don't care enough to buy gil.


Casual gamers are often the people that have to have a party nearly fully assembled in order to participate. They also are the ones that if XP isn't meeting their expectations have "connection issues". Casual gamers should realize that endgame, is not the game. If you need to be PL'd beyond level 32, then that means you should learn your job and how to co-operate with others. The mad dash to get to level 75 without taking the time to get there just means you get people at endgame that don't know their jobs, and goddess forbid you should mention that too them.

In my experiance casual gamers are far more take w/e they can get due to low play time. Alot of people get pled past 32 thats not a casual/hardcore issue more of a lazy issue of people not wanting to learn their job. And jobs in endgame arnt exactly complicated over all lol. Coming up with strategys was maybe the hardest part lol.


TP burns are just another progression of the notion that I have to get there "NOW". This isn't a console game, it doesn't end. If you finish every quest, obtain every item, level everything to 75 with max merits and max experience, the only thing you have accomplished is running out of things to do for yourself.

Tp burns are very fun/effective actually. If you burn or regular party you are going to be fighting the same group of mobs. So if you have an option to get 20k+ and hour or 10k hr for fighting the same mobs why would you chose the lower exp. I think everyone is under the notion that they nerfed regular parties. I don't hear people crying about other progression. I mean if they didn't wat to change the effectivness of jobs we can always get rid of the merit system, new spells like absorb-tp, progression is just a normal fact of life/games.


TP burns are bad, so where manaburns, arrowburns, shadowburns, and every other burn party conceived. The game is about playing it, not about reaching whatever end the player perceives. You don't win a medal or a million Yen/Dollars/Pounds/Rupees/whatever for finishing a game that wasn't designed to end. So just play the game, instead of rushing to get past it so quickly. My opinion is if you are trying to hard to fly through game then I should help. Here is my secret for conquering FFXI:
Consider yourself the master at it and stop playing it as soon as possible, because only then will you be finished with it.

I think its still immensely hypocritical of SE to have nerf RNG so hard two years ago and not do a thing about TP burn trends. You can't look at that nerf or even the adjustment that finally came and tell my RNGs didn't ultimately get a raw deal when you look at EXP PTs doing the EXACT SAME THING RNGs were punished for.

Thank freaking GOD I'm not the only one who is pissed off at this. SE neuters my favorite job, only so that other jobs can do the exact same thing at no consequence? I call BULL SHIT on SE.

Ok this is another general misconseption. Manaburns and Arrowburns got nerfed due to their effectivness in endgame. They did NOT get nerfed due to their exp bonus. "But you can TP KIRIN ORZ!!!" yes you can tp burn kirin with the best of the best gear taking great ls years to get the items, so no tp burn is not as effective as mananburn/arrowburn was or even how effective smn burn is now in endgame. S-E is not going to nerf exp system guys, hell if they do my pt cant get chain 5 and you can you should be nerfed!

BBQ i really had more faith that you wouldn't fail to realize why the rng nerfed happened again S-E really isn't going to nerf a job over exp system... again (tp nerf). Rngs got unnerfed tho which is very nice. Rng being your main job during the nerf right? I am surprised you of all people would then call for the nerf, hypocrit amirite?

Ok so we know your extremely baised about the issue, again read my above replies and see how they didnt get nerfed for exp but for endgame.


SE's stance that they intended the zones to be like this is pure bullshit, you're kidding yourself if you really believed them when they said they wanted these trends to take place. They made a mistake and now that its popular for everyone to exploit these mobs they are frightened to reverse that mistake.
But I'm going to say this guys, I do just fine at my job, as do BLMs. I have no problems keeping my RNG's EXP capped and merritted.

Look at the zones BBQ 5~10 min respawns versus the 16 min of old camps. Colibri as the main target for all tp burns at the start imps 2. Colbiri have relfect or mimic ability basically say screw you mages, but at the same time they added pyshical resists magic weak mobs for the mages to exp offer. So if you look it the burn pt style was allowed to happen not pushed but definatly given a chance.


However, I'm kinda tired hearing people act like a WHM, PLD, BLM, SMN, RNG or what-have-you in their merit PT being like a fly in thier soup. Because WHO IS IT you turn to when you need the big monsters killed and the steady DoT. Who is it you call to tank or heal you?
Uh, that would be WHM, PLD, BLM, SMN and RNG.
And don't even get me started on your lolDRKing. Who is it you turn to for that utterly broken, K Club Burn deal?
Oh right, DRK. How is helping a DRK in your LS going to slow you down? Some of my best merit PTs had DRKs. They're good w/o K Clubs, too.
Give em love, people.

Actaully I don't know where you got all this from but!!!
Whm- Tends to get alot of burn pts, rdm usually gets first invite but they get a good deal of burn pts with no one complaining.
Pld- Doesn't get alot of burn pt at all, ninja's only get a few more burn pts then they do but ninja's get more pts overall.
Blm- Don't get any burn invites at all, they manaburn in mount zhalom for amazing exp so really I fail to see the issue with blms.
Smn- Smn burn pts are great as well not to mention they can solo for exp amazing, so again they don't get burn pts but one of the best soloers I mean seriously do you need to have everything?
Rng- Rngs tend to do great in burn pts, if they have meleeing/ ws gear they are great in burn pts and i usually welcome them. Alot of rangers don't invest in a meleeing set of gear so its not the burn pt's fault it would be the lazy/cheap ranger
Drk- Kraken dark is so freaking broken if any thing needs to be fixed its this lmao. And darks get into burn pts alot too lmao your server must not use people right drk/nin dual axes or axe/kraken is amazing.



Yes it's up to date, but I posted this some time ago and it was in reference to my Tarutaru Hanyou, whom I've decided to stop leveling altogether (finally)

Ok then did you attempt to solo before you posted a rant, did you solo and get great exp or could you say you were too lazy to try soloing so you just decided to rant and blame someone else. was thier alot of people in your level range or was it just a few so you decided to blame tp burn pts becuase thier wasnt enough seeking. Do you have a bad rep on your server, so maybe thats why invites are slacking?

Jumping and blamin something else is easy isnt it?


SE was saying they're working on new ways for us to EXP, so I'm hoping that by no later than WotG's release we'll have new camps and strategies. I think there should be an EXP bonus on IT mobs from Signet to encourage the old SC + MB style parties.
Getting rid of TP burns would be stupid. It's a great way for melee jobs to gather and churn out huge amounts of EXP. What needs to happen is to give the same opportunities to more kinds of parties so that there aren't any jobs getting excluded from the prosperity.

I completly agree with you here mal i think they should boost signet exp to make the old pts better and allow everyone to exp w/o a b c jobs calling for a nerf of d e f jobs, its just getting very old.


Oh, and SE may as well go and undo the ranged nerfing now to be honest. Missions aside (which have already been toned down immensely recently, IMO) I seriously doubt it would affect end game EXP all that much. Even with RNG doing the damage it used to against VT and IT mobs, I doubt they can keep up with WAR and MNK nowadays. I could be wrong, but why should one job class suffer while the other DD are getting away with murder?
I'm still of the opinion that it was the multi hit TP nerf that caused things to spiral out of control the way they have. You think RNG would have ever gotten so popular otherwise? You think WAR and MNK would be rocking TP burns? Hell no. It would be DRG and SAM owning the mire with penta thrust these days.
I'm not saying that would necessarily be a good thing, but SE did state that they would be tweaking multi hit WS in the future again. They didn't say how, just that they would.
Who knows? Maybe they'll sober up and try to fix the mess that is end game EXP.

Ranger if equiped right (goos gil) can keep up with war a mnks in burn pts, was impressed with a rng the other day, its al about effort male alot of people don't want to put in effort then cry about it thats really the only reason these topics annoy me the whole /point /cry /nerf topics are getting old.


Indeed, but sadly the RNG nerf was due to all those players crying and complaining about it. Although I wouldn't be surprised if SE used arrow-burn parties as the prototypes for Aht Urgan's xp camps.

Ray I had thought this as well they used the arrow burn exp idea to help boost exp/hr and we have since taken great hold of it. Btw arrowburns in aht urghan areas are so much fun. And yes the rng burn was sad because it was from topics like this everyone crying but again rng burn in endgame was broken, not as bad as drk kraken and cor now tho.


Great, another KI reject.
Insert, congratulations, I don't think I've read such undiluted drivel in a long time, you actually beat my previous expectations of how far from reality a person could be.

Didn't a few topics back you complain i belittled a poster? Hi2U hyporacy


As for the subject at hand, I believe they need to stamp out burn parties. However, S-E know about the problem then go and release an expansion that caters to three figure limit breaks which people consistently achieve. I don't know how they can in all conscience claim to support the, "Don't forget about your family and friends" message they slap on their game and then put the scripts in for limit breaks than can only be obtained by ridiculously unhealthy hours of unbroken gaming. Unless I'm wrong here and you can achieve limit 173 for example in an hour or over a few hours with breaks away from the screen.

This is the kind of bs that makes me laugh about people who want tp burn gone. What is wrong with parties constantly getting high chains? that means people have learned how to use the exp system amirite? seriously come with a real idea if you want this gone oh btw are you another person complaining because you don't burn, jealousy isn't very good/

As I've said many times before, increase the level on Utsusemi: Ni and you go a long way to removing the burn parties. Problem is then, all the burn party favourite jobs cry into their cornflakes and the subscription numbers fall. And, as I said above, if S-E wanted to discourage burn parties why did they introduce an expansion that is a burn party's wet dream?

Wow lol ya lets increase ni so rdms/nin can now be pissed, and pld/nin which gave plds a huge revial in endgame, and really made them imho best endgame tank, lets breaj them too, not to mention half the jobs in the game. While at it lets remove AM, Stoneskin, blink, raise (as a sub job spell) remove whm from smns, lets get rid of those pesky refresh spells. Grizzlebeard im sorry but that may have been the dumbest statement i have ever read.

So I take it you want to make fun of burn parties crying if you severly nerf them, I mean your bowl of cornflakes is easly over flowing with your own tears.

S-E didn't want to discourage burn pts who said they wanted to lol, all the new mobs would be wivre like if they wanted to lmao. Their are mobs for:
Arrowburn
Manaburn
Tp Burn
Wyvern Burn
Smn Burn

not to mention solo so unless i missed some huge statement from S-E saying "Ya we gonna nerf all sorts of burn exp, so please wait while we add the expansion to fix it" ya your s-e wanting to remove them is bs, and I'm calling you on it.

Didn't a few topics back you complain i belittled a poster? Hi2U hyporacy

No, I complained because you posted retarded images to belittle a poster because you lacked the ability to explain your point with words apparently. Oh, and it's hypocrisy.

This is the kind of bs that makes me laugh about people who want tp burn gone. What is wrong with parties constantly getting high chains? that means people have learned how to use the exp system amirite?

How was my statement incorrect? How many hours, approximately, of continual play does it take to achieve chain 173? You think, unlike all medical evidence to the contrary, that sitting in front of a tv or pc screen for 3+ hours without a break is healthy?

seriously come with a real idea if you want this gone oh btw are you another person complaining because you don't burn, jealousy isn't very good

It's a real idea, I'm only sorry it's beyond your mental capacity to understand. As for the joining in burn parties, I was in more than enough as a ninja in my time to realise I fucking hated them. However, if you think hours of unbroken gaming with little to no communication between other party members while jamming the same two to three keys in the same order is the future of gaming then more power to you.

Wow lol ya lets increase ni so rdms/nin can now be pissed, and pld/nin which gave plds a huge revial in endgame, and really made them imho best endgame tank, lets breaj them too, not to mention half the jobs in the game.

Guess what, FFXI isn't a game for solo players. I don't give a fuck if bumping Ni up to 38 causes RDMs, or THFs, or WARs to shed tears. Utsusemi: Ni as a subbed ability is a game-breaking mechanic that should have been nipped in the bud long ago. It's really tragic that Utsusemi: Ni and the laziness in playstyle in encourages is so entrenched in players' minds that it's unthinkable for most jobs not to have it levelled at 75.

Grizzlebeard im sorry but that may have been the dumbest statement i have ever read.

Knock yourself out. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=643432)

At the time my Taru was only a 44 BLM I believe, a few levels shy of the good solo camps (I believe at that range the best spot is Castle Zhval.... ugh. No /NIN on that character either). That's a dead horse now anyway, so let's leave that alone.


And the RNG nerf actually came for both reasons, EXP and End Game. Arrowburns were totally dominated EXP camps and excluding most jobs save for RDM BRD and NIN. All the while the general strat I believe was to just throw as many RNG as you could at HNMs. It's not one or the other, it's both. My point though, is SE called it wrong back then. Meanwhile today, the same thing is happening (in EXP) and SE says this is what they intended for. WTF???

They even went and nerfed manaburn in sea. This is probably the only one I agree with, as I heard it was actually possible to earn 50k/hour. I don't know if that's true or not, but with that kind of EXP power you'd be able to fully merit a job in no time, so I agree with SE in that respect.


According to the update history in the developer's room, SE isn't against the idea of a "burn" PT per say, they actually find it interesting that a group of just a few jobs can go and EXP efficiently. It's when mass groups of people start doing it and jobs get left out of the fun forced to solo or LFP for god knows how long that SE starts to get irritated and steps in as was the case with arrowburn.

Ok I'm new to this site (Hi :D) and reading through this thread and something is really bothering me.

Rng needed to be nerfed. Period.

At higher levels, tanks, healers and refreshers would actualy seek with "Rng only" in their search comments. And if you were, say... a monk (as I was) and you tried to start a pt, people would say, "Got any rngs?"
"No."
"<Goodbye.>"

All you needed was an up-to-date bow, some scorp arrows and some 5k bone rings and you were t3h uber-l33tnezz!@! Not only did they get TP incredibly fast, and deal loads of damage gathering it, their weaponskill did higher damage than any other ws, more consistently than any other ws. It just missed sometimes. Which could be ameliorated with Meditate-lite aka Barrage.

SE would not nerf a job just because people complained. They nerfed rng because it was incredibly over-powered and it made all the melee jobs completely obsolete. It made a rift in the game that was completely unfair and unfun to people who didn't want to either play ranger or play the bandwagon overpowered class.

That said, I did actually like playing rng (in the 2-3 weeks I went from 1-60 to spite my rng friends who would lol at how slow I leveled), I usually like the archers in MMOs, but it was just unfair. Stupidly overpowered.

I don't think casual gamers hurt the game, whether they play 27 hours a day or 3 hours a week it depends on the player and how seriously they take it and how they understand their actions affect the whole of the game.

Now, going back to the topic of this thread, blms can solo incredibly well, the higher they go the better they are, providing you know your job well of course. Most blms I know solo from 60+ > 75 purely because exp is easier and faster. Not to mention because invites slow because of a little birdy with reflect. A friend of mine swears by the rats in the subterrane. So if you're leveling blm don't panic too much about slow invites.

If you don't like the idea of soloing, and some people don't, having a key job you need for a party unavailable can be a right pain in the ass. Generally it's the tank or the healer, sometimes you just need a broader view to solve this problem, don't always look for a ninja or a pld, sometimes dual war tanks work just as well, or just a war on it's own in some level ranges.

I wouldn't say there is suddenly a lack of tanks, not that I've noticed on sylph anyway, and I've been leveling a few different leveled jobs at the moment so I don't mean in just one level range. If there is on your server at the moment, there's nothing SE can do about it. They can't force players to level more of one job, sure they could encourage it by vamping up the tank jobs a bit but at the end of the day it comes down to the players preferences.

All you can do really in that situation, is wait for the job you need to pop. Ask party member's to ask friends of theirs/linkshells to see if anyone wants to level the tank they have at your level. Other than that, just wait.

Anyone who wants TP parties nerfed really doesn't have much of a clue on how keep FFXI popular and alive. SE tried nerfing a few things, and they got burned badly. Of course, sometimes nerfing is necessary, however, TP burns doesn't ruin the balance of the game.

Some jobs are simply weaker than others. Some tactics are simply weaker than others. The problem isn't that TP burns can get 15k+ an hour... it's that parties using SCs can't.

SCs needs to be boosted.

2-handed weapons need to be boosted.

DRG, BST, WAR, SAM, and PUP all need to be boosted so that they can compare to WAR, NIN, and MNK. (THF and BLU are pretty okay). NIN, WAR, and MNK have such little dependance on their sub job, that having to sub /NIN in TP burns(well, in NIN's case, being able to sub /WAR).

SE needs to give more damage mitigation abilities on all of these jobs, either for main job or sub job purposes, on the level of /NIN(or at least when combined.. for example: Seigan + whatever they give DRG = being able to sub /SAM in exp).

Now if they want to make stronger monsters be popular, monsters need to give better exp for how long they last. I've written a lot on this subject in the past. RDM tier II enfeebals, tanks, SCs, MBs, and ect would be more useful if they actually put some effort in creating a monster to fit that mold... that gave exp equal to how long it takes to kill it(like 300+ base exp and it dies every 60-90 seconds from pull if SC+MB is used).

SC+MB is an easy fix. Make SC rarely be resisted and have a damage boost. Make MB spells cost 50-75% less(giving BLM the endurance to stay around in a fast chaining party).

Until SE does make these changes, you'll have to adapt and just solo or make a static party.

If the critters are so weak that it dies right after an skillchain, there would be no reason to MB. In fact, what would be the point of saving TP to perform one?

Three factors are in play:
1. Many VT monsters are too weak.
2. WS spam is too strong compared to SC+MB.
3. IT's do not give enough exp bonus compared with VT's for the amount of extra time/effort it takes to kill them.

Rather than making a major adjustment to just one problem, why not just make minor adjustment on all three fronts? That way, no major nerf/upgrade for anyone.

TP burns doesn't ruin the balance of the game.
It does to some degree, when it performs so much better exp/hour wise compared to SC+MB. The game should support multiple ways of configuring parties, and have them on relatively even footings compared to each other.

I'm actually OK with WS spam getting somewhat better exp than "balanced" parties, but the different should not be so great as to make it the one and only way in the minds of most players. Like BRD's--everyone love them, but people would gladly take RDM's and COR's for support role. Imagine if BRD's are so good that RDM's and COR's are shut out of majority of parties, and are told to solo or form statics only.

Most people wouldn't think that would be OK for RDM's and COR's, so why should it be OK for BLM's and others to be shut out like that?

If the critters are so weak that it dies right after an skillchain, there would be no reason to MB. In fact, what would be the point of saving TP to perform one?To kill stronger things in record time, consistently.Rather than making a major adjustment to just one problem, why not just make minor adjustment on all three fronts? That way, no major nerf/upgrade for anyone.That's true, but the SC system needs a major boost either way...the damage on skillchains is actually fine as it is, but the resist rates...oh man, the resist rates...

To kill stronger things in record time, consistently.
It's not that simple. Killing stronger things this way must produce comparable exp/hour when compared to WS spam, otherwise SC+MB would still be discarded in favor of WS spam.

That's true, but the SC system needs a major boost either way...the damage on skillchains is actually fine as it is, but the resist rates...oh man, the resist rates...
Hmm. I see MB as the main reason for SC, not the SC effect. The effect is a nice bonus, but I don't really want to see anyone other than THF able to naturally get full damage on a consistent basis. (Keep in mind that every melee DD Lv60+ can use TA and SA--got to give THF's an distinction of some sort... And, no, Assasin trait isn't enough by itself.)

Besides, can't we already get those effect damage more consistent with the use of -ton Ninjutsu and/or Thrnody songs? The reason people don't get full damage on those effects is because they don't bother to take steps to ensure they can, and not because S-E didn't provide the means.

That said, a small increase in max damage possible for SC effects wouldn't be a bad thing. (I guess while I'm not afraid of "nerfs" for balancing the game, I don't want to see any major positive or negative adjustment anywhere.)

It's not that simple. Killing stronger things this way must produce comparable exp/hour when compared to WS spam, otherwise SC+MB would still be discarded in favor of WS spam.True. I'm just saying, if skillchains got stronger, it wouldn't be for killing things that are already weak, it'd be for killing things that are hard to kill faster still. Whether it'd be as good as a TP burn is another issue, but at least it would bring us one step closer to making them equal.Besides, can't we already get those effect damage more consistent with the use of -ton Ninjutsu and/or Thrnody songs? The reason people don't get full damage on those effects is because they don't bother to take steps to ensure they can, and not because S-E didn't provide the means.Very good points, but we shouldn't have to rely on Threnodies (especially since the BRD can only use one at a time) just to get decent accuracy. -ton Ninjutsu, sure (though convincing people to use them is an absolute bitch.) Still, you can get resisted with surprising frequency on just Tough mobs. That's absurd. It's way too easy to get over a 3/4 resist without "outside help" from Threnodies and Ninjutsu. It practically becomes pointless to do it for the SC itself, like you said, which is not how it should be in my opinion. Even if the mob is weak to the SC you still see frequent resists. Resistance down effects should be there to help, not to make it possible.

Until SE does make these changes, you'll have to adapt and just solo or make a static party.

Funny, I seem to remember RNGs and BLMs saying that to other jobs.

That alone is proof something is wrong with ToA when these jobs now tell BLM to do the same, yet, come crying to them for every KS/CoP BCNM/HNM win.

Pathetic, to say the least.

Hmm. I don't think I can really agree with you on the ineffectiveness of the SC effect, since it's both an extremely strong magic accuracy booster as well as a magic attack bonus for MB'ed spells. It's especially a non-issue when parties can be configured to remedy that "defect" (with THF closing chain on SATA, or use Ninjutsu/Song), for those who care about SC effect's damage.

Probably should just leave this sub-topic at that, and wait to see which way S-E wants to go in order to encouraging different styles of exp parting. (Seems like they do care, with the recent upgrade to Signet for solo and small parties... One can only hope they will continue to care... )

Rather than making a major adjustment to just one problem,

Wut?

This is what you would be doing by increasing the strength of exp monsters(in only one portion of Vana'diel, no less).

If SC+MB is made more popular it's effects are felt throughout the game, both outside exp and earlier than TP Burn(as you might have noticed, SCs have lost popularity in all level ranges).

BLMs become more effective in more areas of the game that function like a party if MB's give a conserve effect. Assault(especially Nyzul Investigation) and Salvage come to mind. SMN magical BPs would get a HUGE boost with this as well. SMN magical BPs are practically ignored for being too weak, however would become quite effective if they had the benefit of being especially potent when used with SCs.

Let's not forget DRG, DRK, PUP, and others could use a boost in more than just exp.

I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'll leave it at that.

PS:

Newsflash:

TP Burn was the best way to get exp back in RoZ's time.

Legal Fish is Blood Red?

Yes

Gah, why do I always have to come be the forum paladin?

This is not to say that all casual gamers are gilbuyers, or vice versa. In almost every intelligent discussion I've read regarding gilbuying this was the most often used rationalization.

all of you bitching about his generalizations need to read that.


Everyone and their sister was leveling RNG before the RNG nerf. Considering how peak RNG time was also the high point of the economy, I'd say lots of them were buying gil to be the best class in the game. <-- that's not to say all of them, don't get medieval on me, 'BBQ. When people put /seacoms of "RNG party only" I was infuriated. Now, as a Warrior, I'm still infuriated when I see "Tp burn only."

Do I think TP burns should be weak? No. But seriously, look at what melee jobs actually get spots in them: Warrior, Ninja. Monk gets 3rd place, Samurai a distant 4th. All other jobs, it's common (for my server anyway) to have Bards say "no thanks, DRKs suck" or whatever. What's funny is that it still leaves a lot of unloved melee that were unloved before AU too!

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

-I seem to notice all the people who are pro-TP burn and think there isn't a problem are also the people who enjoy being the strongest. If you played rock, paper, scissors, but rock tore a hole in paper so it always won (thank you, Seinfeld), you would choose rock and say there wasn't a problem with the game to all the people trying to prove the potential of paper.

Armando is right, as always; make it so skillchains don't feel like a dark knight nuking, and maybe someone would give a damn about them.

And Karinya said some sentence that I already forget on page 1 -- something to the extent that it's true that players decide on what works best, but it's S-E that writes those rules. You guys realize that tomorrow, there could be a patch that gives WHM 4 Accuracy traits, 4 Attack Traits, all 3 jumps, and an A+ hammer skill. Oh, and Refresh II for kicks (it'll be 10 mp/tic, naturally) They can do that! Would you still say that it's the player's fault that the game's not balanced?

Some of these posts are rediculously long and are hurting my brain.

all of you bitching about his generalizations need to read that.


Well, I think those of us who bitched before he posted that had a valid reason, that would have been better to add in his first post.

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?


Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that :P
Armando is right, as always; make it so skillchains don't feel like a dark knight nuking, and maybe someone would give a damn about them.


Ok, now granted I party with alot of thiefs, most of them highly professional about their job, so I expect I see the high end of SC damage, but aren't SC kind of fine the way they are? It is not unusual for me to see a thf do a TA+Shark Bite I think it is, for alot of damage, and normally see a SC effect close to the 700 damage range, I don't think I've seen it higher than that though. This also happens to be my general experiance with any SC closing job subbing thief, say drk/thf or sam/thf. The sam/thf may actually see lower SC effects, but they do so many SC with the party members it kind of evens out.

SA+WS, from my experiance, rarely seems to have a resisted effect on the SC, toss on some super MB on top of that and it's pretty darn nifty.

I thought the problem was ToAU mobs being rather weak for their level and what they con as, especially once you start getting merits and uber gear.

Everyone and their sister was leveling RNG before the RNG nerf. Considering how peak RNG time was also the high point of the economy, I'd say lots of them were buying gil to be the best class in the game. <-- that's not to say all of them, don't get medieval on me, 'BBQ.

Most RNGs were burning with scorpion arrows, which were dirt cheap even back then. They didn't buy gil, mostly the e-peen RNGs did that.

The reason RNG was "overpowered" was that Slug Shot and Sidewinder just plain ignored level difference penalties other jobs were still faced with. Hence why SE gave us Flashy Shot as a merit ability later on - it revoves the level difference penalty for one shot.


When people put /seacoms of "RNG party only" I was infuriated. Now, as a Warrior, I'm still infuriated when I see "Tp burn only."

And that's why its a problem. Same song, just different jobs singing it. If you think that it was OK to utterly break RNG for the sake of other melees being able to do the same thing - which is EXACTLY what has happened - then you are blind to the obvious hypocrisy of ToA's design whens stacked against CoP and RoZ's design.

Go take your mighty WAR TP burn to Ule Range on Kindred Demons and see how well it goes, seriously, you can't burn anything there now. And RNG used to be able to burn that one somewhat, too. The RNG nerf wasn't wrong at the time, but absolutely wrong with respect to ToA's design because nothing changed with TP burn save for the jobs. If you're gonna take one class down to make them even with the rest, if that's the intention, then that should be the goal for all jobs in respect to mob design

ToA mobs are WEAK. I can one-shot most puks and imps if I'm full steam as RNG/WAR. That's not Tough or Very Tough, its Too Weak and I shouldn't be getting the EXP I am.

Do I think TP burns should be weak? No. But seriously, look at what melee jobs actually get spots in them: Warrior, Ninja. Monk gets 3rd place, Samurai a distant 4th. All other jobs, it's common (for my server anyway) to have Bards say "no thanks, DRKs suck" or whatever. What's funny is that it still leaves a lot of unloved melee that were unloved before AU too!

DRG does a LOT better in ToA than ever before, most ToA mobs were made for them and RNG doesn't lose out much. MNK, DRK and SAM have nothing to complain about as invites go and many WAR PTs are overrated.

Yeah and BRDs haven't changed one bit, the Arrowburn-only BRD disgusted me back in the day because, just like today's WAR-Onry BRDs, they were poorly geared and remained powerful.

Just as an aside, if COR requires job presence for roll bonuses, then songs should have thier respective instruments for thier bonuses. That's they way its supposed to work, yet COR's buffs without a job present is signifigantly weaker than a BRD using a level 1 flute with no bonuses.

I've levelled both and I have my preferences, but I'm not blind to the design flaw here. A BRD with a level one flute shouldn't be dishing out better attack buffs with minuets than a COR w/o DRK doing 11 for Chaos Roll. Yet it is.

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

If you've not levelled solo through the 50s, you have no inkling how steep solo EXP feels 60+. Its even worse when you seek PT and people tell you "at least you can solo your EXP" because it will take days as opposed to hours to get higher levels. Its a slap to the face to say that to BLM, PUP or BST. No shit they can solo, how do you think they got that far? We don't want to solo all the damned time.

RDM can solo and I don't see them doing it for EXP, so they've little right to speak on the matter unless they've levelled these other jobs solo. A BLU can solo until he gets an EXP PT, too, but they don't hurt for invites like BLM, PUP and BST do.

BST is actually anything but weak on EXP PTs, they can easily keep the pace just like any good DRG, pet damage adds a lot to those two jobs contribution in an EXP PT. It just continues to be myth and low population that hurts the job.

Oh crap, I lost what I typed so I get to try again. version 2.0:

I'm not disagreeing with you, bbq. there's a lot that gets lost on the internet. Basically:

-it's hypocritical for the melee parties to be doing what RNGs got nerfed for

-The lesser jobs did a lot better at first on my server. Because with even a crappy layout you were making best-of-best sky party exp. So now we want those "absolute best" parties only, because expectations have risen (that's a claim with absolutely no backing, btw).

-Either melee parties need some weakening or standards need boosted. Both is probably best -- Karinya's suggestion for changing exp tables is the best I've seen yet.

-Soloing through the 50s must be tough, but that's not my concern. I want BLMs in my parties again (I memorized the entire fucking skillchain chart just for SC/MBs to become obsolete). I don't even remember why I brought up Tipsy's BLM. I guess just that I don't think he truely understands the extent of BLM suffering. Of course, maybe he did have to solo/duo through the 50s/60s in which case I'll humbly take back my claim. But in the meantime, assuming I'm right, basically you should be throwing your "you have no idea how bad it is" words at him, since he's the one that thinks the systems just fine as is.

But other things you brought up in your post:

-people on my server refuse to party with BLUs

-LOADS refuse BSTs (I know, they're actually borderline broken if they're willing to dole out the cash)

-RDM don't solo exp because they kill too slow. There's no argument against RDM soloing when it takes 10 minutes for a T. NMs are for fun. Let them have their fun.

Ok

1) I agree "standard" party needs a boost in exp, not a nerf to tp burns but a boost to harder mobs to bring it on par.

2) Most of the same people asking for nerf now were the people who were upset/didn't want nerf to manaburn or arrowburn, how quick to change sides.

3) Manaburn parties/ Blm solo will still probably do better then a "standard" party, so it still may be harder to get blms into parties.

4) 2 handed weapons should be fixed, or even with the standard party set up it still won't change the normal invite rate.

5) Rng got fixed and you can arrowburn very easy in ToAU so calling for a nerf now from rangers is a bit greedy. Would just start the whole process over again.

6) Tp Burn should not be nerfed: The reason I am saying tp burn should not be nerfed is a generalization. Effectivness in endgame for melee they need more merits to even come close to a blm or rng damage ( even tho ranger works well in burn), a whm's use, or a Pld's ability to tank. So were the jobs that tend to be exculded from tp burns only, they do get priorty in other areas of the game. It balances out really. And some jobs just get exculded no matter what the party type.

7) I'm guessing most of you get 1 merit party a week. You all have made it sound like its days before you get a merit party, I have merited now on two servers i know 2 people from ifrit who would only tp burn. Both made their own parties and never would seek. Out of the 700 people I merited with. And I have yet to see a "tp burn" only /seacom on ethier ifrit or kujata. It just seems to me calling for tp burn nerf is more of a /jealousy issue then a can't merit issue. Alot (not all) come off as a "I party this way so MY exp should be better then a burn". I do however agree that burn pts in the mire are sad, I personally lover burning the Mamjools @ nyzule isle, because they are somewhat of a challenge.

8) Blm did not get singled out because of ToAU merit wise, 52-60 was effected due to colibri camps. A good amount of Blms would have "Manaburn" only comments (on ifrit atleast), then when tp burns came around they whined that the melees they didn't party with wouldn't now invite them.

9) Last it's a game, I find tp burn fun. It is very easy exp/merits, I can chat with friends relax while getting great exp. I personally like a good amount (over half) will take any invite burn or not just getting merits. Tp burn does not effect the exp a standard party gets, unless your pulling the same mobs, but by your own regard those are far too easy so you should never pull against one. It just get annoying when a easy way to get merits that doesn't hurt the game, or the player base comes around, someone isn't happy. New flash no matter what not everyone will be happy, well unless your a bard because they have it better then ne job in this game.

6) Tp Burn should not be nerfed: The reason I am saying tp burn should not be nerfed is a generalization. Effectivness in endgame for melee they need more merits to even come close to a blm or rng damage ( even tho ranger works well in burn), a whm's use, or a Pld's ability to tank. So were the jobs that tend to be exculded from tp burns only, they do get priorty in other areas of the game. It balances out really. And some jobs just get exculded no matter what the party type.

I don't think being desired for Salvage is much comfort to a PUP at this point. They have H2H and can help mow down the early mobs with a pet, but I wouldn't say that justifys them being forced to solo thier EXP. Especially when you die and lose that EXP.

To say "X Job is desired for Endgame, but not TP burn, so it balances out,"... just be glad I'm not a PLD or BLM because I'd have some really choice words about that. Those jobs die a LOT at endgame, as does my RNG. I can recap my RNG EXP in LS PTs and merit on COR, no problems here. But for those that are needed often on jobs that can't get merit PTs at all, that's a big problem.

And so I think its rude to go crying to that PLD or BLM for help later if you refused to merit with them on the basis of their job. I play jobs that usually clash with PLD, but I usually manage to work with them if they work with me. I'm not going to turn down a merit PT just because a PLD was in it.

I don't think being desired for Salvage is much comfort to a PUP at this point. They have H2H and can help mow down the early mobs with a pet, but I wouldn't say that justifys them being forced to solo thier EXP. Especially when you die and lose that EXP.
Pup's are not invited to "normal" parties bbq I'm not talking about how broken in a bad way some jobs are. I'm talking about jobs who get normal invites but no burn invites. Pup needs some melee gear that is not a pain to obtain.

To say "X Job is desired for Endgame, but not TP burn, so it balances out,"... just be glad I'm not a PLD or BLM because I'd have some really choice words about that. Those jobs die a LOT at endgame, as does my RNG. I can recap my RNG EXP in LS PTs and merit on COR, no problems here. But for those that are needed often on jobs that can't get merit PTs at all, that's a big problem.
My drg died a ton in Endgame, back at the point before the hasso seigan buffs, I had it capped all the time. Maybe because I made my own parties. The only job I don't party with in merit is Blm, I play with plds, cor, rng, hell even pup's. I was not saying its fair over all. I should have pointed out by balance I meant the jobs need overall in the game, some jobs exp better some kill "big shit" better. You can't have everything.

And so I think its rude to go crying to that PLD or BLM for help later if you refused to merit with them on the basis of their job. I play jobs that usually clash with PLD, but I usually manage to work with them if they work with me. I'm not going to turn down a merit PT just because a PLD was in it.

I agree BBQ, I don't even ask the set up until I'm in the party. I won't lie if i get a standard party invite at the same time as a tp burn, I'm not an idiot I'm going to take the burn pt invite. Like I said, I haven't exped with Blm's 70+ in maybe 6 months before Komm had his whm leveled I would invite him to parties all the time, because he was a friend.

Also on your begging for help part I Fully Agree with that. I defend Tp burn because not every person who tp burns is an absolute dick about set ups. It is a game I play for fun hell I stayed in a 5k/hr merit party before I left ifrit because it was with friends. I help out ls plds/blm/(insert what ever non-burn pt job) when ever I can. Gotten 34 joyeuses, Jet Serwels (sp), etc. because they are friends/ls mates/ non-douches.

-Tipsy leveled BLM before the Blm-catastrophe. You may have difficulty meriting on it (boohoo @soloing 7-10k/hour), but I doubt you had it bad leveling through the early 60s, did you?

When I level'd BLM 60-70~, it was through Bibiki Bay, averaging 3-4k an hour? Sometimes even less. From what I remember Party invites wern't that great either. And from what the person wrote who started this thread, I had assumed he was talking about end game EXP. Now that I know he's Lv.24, I don't get where he's coming from. And yes, just because we CAN solo doesn't mean we want to. It's alot harder, it's alot less fun, and there's alot of competition.

When I level'd BLM 60-70~, it was through Bibiki Bay, averaging 3-4k an hour? Sometimes even less. From what I remember Party invites wern't that great either. And from what the person wrote who started this thread, I had assumed he was talking about end game EXP.
If you look at my quotes on my sig.... I think these fill answer the uncertaintly...


Fools who try to organize TP burns without a BRD or a WHM.

The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

If you look at my quotes on my sig.... I think these fill answer the uncertaintly...

Fools who try to organize TP burns without a BRD or a WHM.

I don't get what you mean by referring to that quote, I was talking about how I lvl'd my BLM through Bibiki Bay at 3-4k EXP an hour. You can't TP burn with a BLM.. and no they wern't Manaburns either. Just regular EXP parties.



The question pertained to improving tank jobs all-around, not just endgame tanking. Endgame is not the entire game.

Again I don't get why you refered me to that quote. If it's because of the "End game is not the entire game." then I'll say the only reason I assumed he was talking about end game EXP is because, BLM does really well in the non end game/burn-influenced parties. I never had troubles getting a PT at that level either. And any party under Lv.30 is a joke. You got like 3k EXP to get to level up..

Hmm. I don't think I can really agree with you on the ineffectiveness of the SC effect, since it's both an extremely strong magic accuracy booster as well as a magic attack bonus for MB'ed spells. It's especially a non-issue when parties can be configured to remedy that "defect" (with THF closing chain on SATA, or use Ninjutsu/Song), for those who care about SC effect's damage.Should we really need a BRD + BLM just to Skillchain? Because without the MB it's not even that effective before Lv.3 skillchains and even those see resists. Plus, do we really want BRD to become necessary for non-burn parties? I don't have a problem if one party setup exploits the SC+MB tactic better, but you shouldn't need a specific party setup just to SC for damage in the first place. Job/weapon compatibilities are constrictive enough as it is! That aside, it's still not powerful enough if it can't compete with a burn party.Ok, now granted I party with alot of thiefs, most of them highly professional about their job, so I expect I see the high end of SC damage, but aren't SC kind of fine the way they are? It is not unusual for me to see a thf do a TA+Shark Bite I think it is, for alot of damage, and normally see a SC effect close to the 700 damage range, I don't think I've seen it higher than that though. This also happens to be my general experiance with any SC closing job subbing thief, say drk/thf or sam/thf. The sam/thf may actually see lower SC effects, but they do so many SC with the party members it kind of evens out.

SA+WS, from my experiance, rarely seems to have a resisted effect on the SC, toss on some super MB on top of that and it's pretty darn nifty.I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but do you know how much damage a SC should do? Lv.1 should do 50%. Lv.2 does 60%. Lv.3 does 100% as most people know. If you do two skillchains in a row, then if the second is Lv.1 it'll do 60%; if the second is Lv.2 it'll do 75%; if the second is Lv.3 it'll do 150%. Ever since I made my skillchain damage chart I've been observing the skillchain damage every time one happens, and I can't help but be disappointed in just about every party. Fully unresisted skillchains are a real rarity. The higher numbers aren't uncommon, but neither is getting a big resist.

Sure, THFs and people using SA+WS put up nice SC damage that's usually in the hundreds but it should be doing so much more. If SC damage didn't see so many resists people would appreciate even the basic Scission skillchain. Getting 50% of your WS's damage tacked on as bonus damage is pretty sweet, but when you go through the trouble of synchronizing with another DD, wasting some ~10-20 TP expecting 200 skillchain damage and you only get 40 in return, it really sucks. You barely made up the potential damage you lost from not using your WS ASAP, and if you don't have a BLM in the party (I don't want to discriminate them, but they're a DD and as such shouldn't be any more necessary to a party than a DRK, THF, etc...) then all you got was a cool light show and break-even damage. You didn't really lose much, but if you don't gain much then what's the point?

Nothing sucks quite as much as seeing an 800 damage WS close 3-way Light/Dark and see the SC do 600 when you know it should've done 1200 damage.

Tipsy: when many of us leveled 60-70, 4k/hour was high end exp. Your DRK probably never got to see that (I know you leveled DRK pre-AU. And for that you have my respect).

Sev, I'm quite glad to hear that you don't see "tp burn only" comments. On my server -- I kid you not, if a Refresher has a green dot next to their name (granted, most don't), I can almost guarantee it's something to that effect. Either as severe as "TP burn only" or as light as "Tp {burn} {yes, please}." Which really means "I'll take another invite, but suddenly my connection magically sucks."

I will say this:

It just seems to me calling for tp burn nerf is more of a /jealousy issue then a can't merit issue.

The majority? Ok. But my problem with this argument is that I'm living proof that it's not 100%. I get the invites, I can easily live "the high life." Problem is, my DRG friend doesn't get to. That's annoying. I have a friend who's Drk, Sam, Nin 75 (in that order). Naturally, he plays NIN the most, and enjoys the game most on NIN. He admits that he actually hates NIN (though he enjoys tanking, oddly enough). But it's just that he gets to do so much more on his NIN than his other jobs. that is a product of the player base.

At any rate, I thank all of you for keeping this page so civilized. You all get cookies.

I don't get what you mean by referring to that quote, I was talking about how I lvl'd my BLM through Bibiki Bay at 3-4k EXP an hour. You can't TP burn with a BLM.. and no they wern't Manaburns either. Just regular EXP parties.
Again I don't get why you refered me to that quote. If it's because of the "End game is not the entire game." then I'll say the only reason I assumed he was talking about end game EXP is because, BLM does really well in the non end game/burn-influenced parties. I never had troubles getting a PT at that level either. And any party under Lv.30 is a joke. You got like 3k EXP to get to level up..
>_>; I basicly meant, endgame is not the entire game which you can take from the context of the quote. Nor is TP or any other burn entire EXP/

I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but do you know how much damage a SC should do?

Np at all, I think I know how much a SC should do, but perhaps I was mistaken, I didn't know about the additional SC bonus for the bigger chains.

And it always has seemed to me that either Thiefs or people subbing Thief not only put up nice damaging SC but that SC is not resisted as much as a non SA+WS. I honestly could be wrong though.

Nothing sucks quite as much as seeing an 800 damage WS close 3-way Light/Dark and see the SC do 600 when you know it should've done 1200 damage.

Yeah, I can see why that would be disappointing and I kinda take back my stance on it. By the way, do you have a link to your SC damage chart thingy? I'd be interested in learning some more about it.

When I level'd BLM 60-70~, it was through Bibiki Bay, averaging 3-4k an hour? Sometimes even less.

It is fairly easy to get a 6k-8k exp/hr with a normal exp party there, if you have a run of bad parties I don't think it's fair to say that blm have it rough in exp.

DRG does a LOT better in ToA than ever before, most ToA mobs were made for them

You'd think that, but I haven't gotten a single invite since the Colibri camps when I actually had people fighting over me, I did enjoy that ..> But it can be a struggle to get an Imp party going sometimes, and those are weak to piercing as well.

>_>; I basicly meant, endgame is not the entire game which you can take from the context of the quote. Nor is TP or any other burn entire EXP/


You're right, end game is not the ENTIRE game, it's a huge portion, and just about the entire game leads to 'end game.' And when was the last time you saw an update that actually pertains to people who are level 40 and under? I think SE needs to be refreshed on this fact.

Right, TP burn isn't entire EXP either, I'm well aware of that. I never said it was.

Here you go. http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/samurai/54276-sc-damage-chart-need-help-completing.html
Level _ | _1st_ | _2nd_ | _3rd_ | _4th_ | _5th_
Level 1 | 50%_ | 60%_ | 70%_ | 80%_ | 90%
Level 2 | 60%_ | 75%_ | 100% | 125% | 150%
Level 3 | 100% | 150% | 175% | 200% | 225%The pattern's pretty simple so you don't even have to memorize that much. I'm surprised it's not stickied, actually.

You're right, end game is not the ENTIRE game, it's a huge portion, and just about the entire game leads to 'end game.' And when was the last time you saw an update that actually pertains to people who are level 40 and under? I think SE needs to be refreshed on this fact.
Right, TP burn isn't entire EXP either, I'm well aware of that. I never said it was.
If anything, they do need to make leveling other jobs more appealing, seeing how the past week, barely anyone in the 40s are around, less than usual for seraph imho.

That could easily be a dry spell. It's not like there is a constant lack of people at lower levels, there are always people swapping around doing different things, etc. Just because the past week had barely any people seeking, doesn't mean that there are none. There could be buttloads of people already pt'ing and you just missed the rush, ya' know?

I just don't like how people keep bringing up needing to level lower jobs. There are always people leveling new ones, like myself at the moment.

This game is getting older, more people are reaching end game, which makes less people at the lower levels (Maybe that's why Malacite isn't getting good invites). There's definatly not as many people at lower levels now, that there was back in the day. Most of the time when I party on my lower level jobs I was playing with people Rank 8+, alot were just end gamers leveling their sub. Reason why there's less people 38-50 lfg I suppose.

Yea, I suppose. I haven't had much trouble except with the obvious things, Refresh/Tank, but that's an always thing in my opinion. Oh well, I can live with it and always try to find a way around it if I really can't find an exp pt. Promys w/NPC and Exp Scroll Choco runs help fill my time if I have to lfp for hours.

There really aren't a whole lot of people at the lower levels on seraph. Parting under 50 is sheer hell. There's an average of 20-30 people at beast for each stage, not counting the hordes of new RMT...

It ain't that bad at Midgardsormr. I started playing awhile ago at level 18, and now I'm 27 and haven't really had any real problems getting a party as a BLM/WHM.

There really aren't a whole lot of people at the lower levels on seraph. Parting under 50 is sheer hell. There's an average of 20-30 people at beast for each stage, not counting the hordes of new RMT...

Hmm. I don't know, this sounds a bit exaggerated.

Comparing the 5th Vana'diel Census (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_5th_Vana%27diel_Census_%2805/16/2005%29#Main_Job_Level_Distribution) vs. the 7th Vana'diel Census (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_7th_Vana%27diel_Census_%2806/27/2007%29#Job_Levels), we can see that while under Lv.10 characters dropped off a lot, the same cannot be said for the Lv.11-50 range.

(Excluding Lv.37 characters)
2005 Lv.11-50: 36.28% of the population
2007 Lv.11-50: 48.16% of the population

Yes, there are actually MORE people in the Lv.11-50 range than two years ago, since the player population has remained at 500,000-ish. This increase is partially attributable to people taking jobs to Lv.37 first, then go back to level support jobs (I took out Lv.37 characters from the data already), and a sharp increase in the number of people who took jobs to Lv.40 for level capped fights such as BCNM's. (That's in the data; 0.69% in 2005, and 1.69% in 2007.)

Whatever the reasons are, the fact is there are plenty of people between Lv.11 to 50 these days--more than two years ago.

That said, I have observed that the number of players seeking party under Lv.50 have gone down noticeably. I want to say static/LS parties have become really popular, and the number of solo'ers have gone up, but not sure if those two can fully explain the situation, at least not with NA players.

It is possible that the players now are spending greater proportion of their online time engaged in non-exp related activities, and that's likely the biggest reason IMO, though I have no data to back up that with. I certainly see greater awareness of how food and gear can affect performance among new players, so perhaps the lowbies today are spending much more time gathering Gil than leveling, compared to two years ago? Who knows what they are doing...

You're right, end game is not the ENTIRE game, it's a huge portion, and just about the entire game leads to 'end game.' And when was the last time you saw an update that actually pertains to people who are level 40 and under? I think SE needs to be refreshed on this fact.

Right, TP burn isn't entire EXP either, I'm well aware of that. I never said it was.

When was the last time?

Chocobo Racing
Chocobo Breeding
Camp Kweh
Ballista
Brenner
BLU, COR and PUP gear added at varying levels
New ToA accessories for lower level players.
Lots of quests
Events
AFs quests.
Rank Missions

There's lots of content that pertains to endgame and then there's loads of content elsewhere. Nothing I listed really leads up to an endgame function. SE is still pretty big on dishing out huge storylines and lore for doing even the most insignifigant stuff.

Any low level player could do Rat Race or the Serpent General quests and be treated to a heap of story in the process, with some decent rewards to boot.

And really, without this content, it wouldn't be Final Fantasy at all. And I still find it sad that people think endgame is the point to the game. Maybe it is if you have RNG mules stationed in Attowah Chasm to scan for Tiamat. I can't decide if that's clever or just the epitome of depravity, to be honest.

Getting back to what SevIfrit was talking about, I don't know if there is a way to balance things out for the majority of melee jobs at endgame. Two of the best jobs can shoot or nuke things from a distance without having to scramble around the mob to hit it. Then there's the support, tank and mage classes which have an indisposable place in endgame.

Melees are... replaceable. Feels dirty to say it, but such as been the case since Ultima Online and its never changed in any MMO. Everyone wants the be the guy that kills the monster. When melees are so replaceable how do you make one shine over another? Even the most popular melees can be replaces with others. I'm not gonna shed a tear over losing an egotistical WAR or MNK... they're WARs and MNKs. Dime a dozen. Give me a PLD or WHM and now you're talkng.

/shrug

Chocobo Racing
Chocobo Breeding
Camp Kweh
Ballista
Brenner
BLU, COR and PUP gear added at varying levels
New ToA accessories for lower level players.
Lots of quests
Events
AFs quests.
Rank Missions


You make a good point, don't get me wrong.. but chocobo breeding? Yeah, that's loads of 'fun.' lol

Plus, don't you have to be level 50+ on atleast one job to access Aht Urghan (or something)? And to do some of the stuff you mentioned, a level 40 offers little help, they'd have to milk than really participate. Yes, alot of Aht urghan is soloable (most of it) but there's some missions that arn't. AF quests have been around since the begining of the game, so not really an update, and 50-60 is still a pretty high level.

Ballista sucks horribly pre uncaps, imo :P.. everything else aside, I think it's fair to say, end game may not be the entire game, alot of the game does lead up to it (leveling, home nation missions, etc) but it's ALOT more fun and eventful than anyting underneath.

You say you think it's sad that some people think end game is the entire game, I think they don't think it's the ENTIRE game, I just think that they consider anything else to be not as fun and thus a waste of time.. making end game the 'entire' game for them.

I mean, look at that list you made, it's tiny compared to what an 'end game list' would look like.

Ballista sucks horribly pre uncaps, imo :P.. everything else aside, I think it's fair to say, end game may not be the entire game, alot of the game does lead up to it (leveling, home nation missions, etc) but it's ALOT more fun and eventful than anyting underneath.
Obviously never seen the 30-50 caps I've been too with the crazy tarus running around. Or a jungar forest 40 cap with whm/war vs pld/whm, whm winning ;P Fact its capped makes it the challenge compare to uncapped. Plus, exp is exp. Though my favorite ballista has to be 30 cap in the marshlands and uncap in mountians.

Well, I've done every Level of ballista from 30-75, and uncaps, imo are the best because you can use your job to it's full extent, without being held back. Which is mostly the reason why I don't like capped fights. But I will say, Lv.30 caps as MNK with Borreal Cesti are pretty fun.. but THAT'S IT! lol xD

Ballista is by far most balanced at level 60. I honestly can say uncapped is unbalanced like hell. It's very similar to the main game, at post-60 is when balance goes to hell(all those jobs become "lol", MNK, NIN, and WAR become "OMG!") and at 75, it's like we are playing a different game.

Capped pre 60 just means even if you're using the lol jobs, you can still beat the omg by one simple reason, better at playing your job. Though I gotta go to uncapped again just to see if I can take on a blu soro with rdm/nin >_>;

Well, first of all, to be quite honest, Official matches arn't even a thought in my head. I ONLY do Diorama with my friends.. and in there, we don't score petras, no that's boring as shit, we match up two jobs to go head to head. And I mus say, we had people in our shell that could do things with jobs (jobs you would have easily underestimated) that you'd never think possible.

So when you say ballista, that's what I think of, not the mindless gang-rapes of 5 lvl 75 MNKs in osode/blackbelt but, the fair, one on ones, (NO items) to see who built their character better/who has more skill.

So when doing stuff like that, I prefer uncaps over anything.

Far I've experienced, there is never a fair one on one match in uncapped >_> Nor are there anyone willing to do that. Sides, lvl 75 monks are worse in 40 cap mnk vs mnk cause they get Raging Fists before the non-75 ones(sooo cheap) >_>;;

I wonder if they'll ever make an update that just the allspark to tanks and blms ;o

Far I've experienced, there is never a fair one on one match in uncapped >_> Nor are there anyone willing to do that. Sides, lvl 75 monks are worse in 40 cap mnk vs mnk cause they get Raging Fists before the non-75 ones(sooo cheap) >_>;;
I wonder if they'll ever make an update that just the allspark to tanks and blms ;o

In official matches, I doubt you'll get a chance to 1v1, maybe if you run really far away to an isolated area.. lol and i know plenty of ppl who prefer to 1v1..

but this is an RPG, I mean, RPG are strategy and lvl/equipment, skill isn't the biggest portion in RPG games. So, in my opinion, the fairness is based off who has put more into their character, but skill is still a nice chunk of it..

EDIT: and we totally have drifted way off topic lol.. that's cool tho

Getting back on the topic - I think the problem with BLM in high level EXP has really started to show its toll within the low levels.

I've been out in Bibki Bay as 28/29 BLU this week, I just want to learn Wild Carrot and then move to another zone to learn something else, but there's not time there isn't some little BLM my level camping the Goblin Pathfinder's rabbits. They're a pretty common sight soloing at any EXP level now, I saw them in pre-ToA solo camps on my BST as well, pretty much clashing with what I'd camp there too.

It seems the idea that BLMs aren't needed for EXP has taken hold at high level and trickled almost all the way down to the lower levels now. I don't think I even partied with a BLM when I was levelling my WHM sub.

BLM soloing isn't unheard of, but it wasn't common at this level this time last year.

It seems the idea that BLMs aren't needed for EXP has taken hold at high level and trickled almost all the way down to the lower levels now.
This is the way it's been for a while. If it works at 75 people assume it works at every level.

I should have finished BLM before ToAU was released :(

Getting back on the topic - I think the problem with BLM in high level EXP has really started to show its toll within the low levels.
I've been out in Bibki Bay as 28/29 BLU this week, I just want to learn Wild Carrot and then move to another zone to learn something else, but there's not time there isn't some little BLM my level camping the Goblin Pathfinder's rabbits. They're a pretty common sight soloing at any EXP level now, I saw them in pre-ToA solo camps on my BST as well, pretty much clashing with what I'd camp there too.
It seems the idea that BLMs aren't needed for EXP has taken hold at high level and trickled almost all the way down to the lower levels now. I don't think I even partied with a BLM when I was levelling my WHM sub.
BLM soloing isn't unheard of, but it wasn't common at this level this time last year.


BBQ my blm is that level, while exp invite may have decreased at that level exping off that rabbit pulls alot more exp/hr then parting at the same level. I get invite while soloing a good amount just the higher exp from solo and being able to just exp when i want works better for me.

Personally, I think the reason many BLMs solo thier exp is what they wanted from the job.

A blm in a party is expected to back up heal, hit MBs, conserve mp, rarly just chain nuke.

A solo blm just puts out as much damage as his MP allows.

I enjoyed being in a party with blm, but in all honesty it's easier to just solo my exp as blm. I don't think it's that the "blms arn't needed" mentality, but the TP burn mentality. Most parties I was invited didn't do skill chains, no organization, no SATA or any "advanced" party tactic. It was just pull mob, hit mob, mob dies after enough hitting.

I'm not saying one way it better than the other, but after leveling blm solo from 40 to 75 (some duoing) I just found the exp better, faster, and convientent. I cound hit chain 5 solo, exp was usually 300 base per kill, and when I wanted a break I took on and didn't have to worry about ticking off party members.

That's not to say I don't enjoy a party aspect of FFXI, I really do. But typical pick-up groups on a job that requires cooperation (blm, thf, etc) if just a headache. So if I can solo in those I cases, I do.

that and I have friends who solo on blackmage and report getting better than 7k/hr in the level ranges when most people are happy with 4k/hr in a traditional pt (pre-exp bands)

so I think I'd probably be soloing too, honestly.

rarly just chain nuke.


Because chain nuking gets you killed.

Because chain nuking gets you killed.

unless you're solo. 8D

Because chain nuking gets you killed.

Well that was my point. Many play BLM for the big numbers in damage. We enjoy doing massive damage in short order. But if you have an un-cooperative party (which happens a lot) it's hard to do your best damage.

When you solo, you get to play with AM, nuke until you can't nuke no more, and get the biggest epeen numbers.

I enjoy playing around on blm, but whne I go to an event we do things rights. SC+MB, blm helps support, et cetera. But when giveen a choice to just solo making good exp and having fun, or dealing with a party that doesn't want to play right, I'm going to just solo.

This is the way it's been for a while. If it works at 75 people assume it works at every level.

I call it Trickle-Down Dragoonomics.

High Level Player X says DRG isn't "good" for Y Event or Z Merit PT and its instantly assumed by Newb A and Noob B that the job must be bad at every level.

Except HLP X is wrong and DRG can wreck some shit and they can do so at plenty of levels of the game. Newb A will eventually realize the falsehood about DRG and possibly level it or respect the job, but Noob B will never learn and just spread the falsehood.

The truth about DRG was that players were forced against IT+++ mobs in the RoZ and CoP days. Since people were immense pussies back then (and still are) they try to find the weakest thing possible. The weakest things were crabs (weak in the sense of low accuracy and no deadly moves) and not many jobs were good for crabs at the time. Jobs like DRG and MNK were at a disadvantage on these mobs and these mobs were the most common type you levelled on.

Were bird the mob of choice back then, people would have said things differently.

Nah, it's just that players will take the best xp/hr, and right now fast chaining lower lvl mobs is way more profitable xp-wise than killing tougher mobs.

So, until SE doesn't give players a good reason to kill tougher mobs (where SC+MB actually matters) fast-chain burns will be the way to go, and a job like BLM which can't keep up with killings doesn't really have a place there.

Like it's been already said to death, make tougher mobs give more xp (enough to make them reach the xp/hr lvls of a burn party) along with making PLD's defense and vit actually do something and conventional parties will be worth it again. And even if some players want to believe they are worth it right now the numbers say otherwise.

After all, those who still want to go with older setups and get half the xp can still do so, but it's unlikely many players will go with that if they can get more xp/hr doing things another way. It's all about reducing the grinding to a minimum.

And it's up to SE to decide if they really want to bring conventional parties back or not.

along with making PLD's defense and vit actually do something and conventional parties will be worth it again.
I see a possible problem with that though. It could also change the mob's system, making prices and rarity of atk and str gear/food go up dramatically.

Like it's been already said to death, make tougher mobs give more xp (enough to make them reach the xp/hr lvls of a burn party) along with making PLD's defense and vit actually do something and conventional parties will be worth it again. And even if some players want to believe they are worth it right now the numbers say otherwise.

Make hard mobs give more EXP and PLing will exist all the way to 75. PLing in FFXI, as it stands, is an amusing illusion of faster EXP. Fast chaining weaker mobs could have been a trend since Valkurm but the player populace was too dumb to consider it viable until sanction EXP bonus came along. Sure was viable for Arrowburns, they didn't need a EXP bonus.

Puks, Imps and Jnun are not low level mobs, they're mobs incredibly weak for thier actual level. They should be giving EM or DC EXP, yet they give T and VT EXP.

I see a possible problem with that though. It could also change the mob's system, making prices and rarity of atk and str gear/food go up dramatically.

What I've had in mind is something like giving PLDs a trait to ignore the lvl diference when fighting mobs up to 7 lvls above them or something like that, so the dmg is calculated like you are fighting an EM mob.

Or a trait that would enhance dmg taken reduction using extra vit/def stats from gear/food/meds.

Messing with formulas at this point would break the game rather than help.

The way the game works now the tougher the mob the less effective PLD's defense/vit becomes, and the less likely a party will aim for such higher lvl mobs; it also makes more likely people will rather use Utsusemi to tank. The problem isn't Utsusemi itself, but rather that there's no other way to tank certain mobs effectively because defensive stats do close to nothing after a relatively low point.

Make hard mobs give more EXP and PLing will exist all the way to 75. PLing in FFXI, as it stands, is an amusing illusion of faster EXP. Fast chaining weaker mobs could have been a trend since Valkurm but the player populace was too dumb to consider it viable until sanction EXP bonus came along. Sure was viable for Arrowburns, they didn't need a EXP bonus.

Puks, Imps and Jnun are not low level mobs, they're mobs incredibly weak for thier actual level. They should be giving EM or DC EXP, yet they give T and VT EXP.

It's true, as tougher mobs give more xp unskilled players will require PL to lvl up, but sadly you can't have it both ways, either you make harder mobs worth fighting or just forget about them and remain fast chaining.

And I don't think Aht Urgan mobs are that weak compared to their lvl, to me the main difference between old areas and Aht Urgan is their respawn time, as it is so much shorter. I've been able to burn in older areas at pretty much the same speed, but what kills xp is that you run out of mobs way too fast (that, and the lack of saction xp bonus of course).

You get to a camp, get chain 6 and then wait for 5-10 mins for respawns. Yay.

Messing with formulas at this point would break the game rather than help.

Almost never true.

I solod BLM from 51-63 which I am currently. You didn't mention what level your BLM is but there are solo guides all over. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Black_Mage_Solo_Guide_by_Lion_heart Here is a address to one in fact. I solod 60k exp in two days in Bibiki Bay. May even want to try BLM burn parties or even dou with someone. My exp/hr solo is so amazing and fast that I actually turn down party invites.

If you can keep that up to and past 70, pray tell me what your fighting. I've been stuck at 71 for 5 months now and no mater what I try to solo/make a party/quest for EXP scrolls/whatever, I cannot get out. It's precisely the reason my content I.D.s are deactivated.

I get a feeling that Square set up the game so that we were meant to be chaining T-VTs all along from 10-75. Targeting ITs seems to be a waste of time and mana if you can kill two VTs with the same effort. Still, I guess people are more thrilled by big numbers than consistency and targeting ITs won't dissapear.

Omgwtfbbq seems to have the best solution to TP-burn issues with PLD and BLM - adjust the mobs to give xp relative to their actual difficulty - EM or DC instead of T-VT. This won't shut down TP-burns totally, it'll just even the balance in regards to a regular tanking+skillchaining party.

All that said, I'm only lvl 65 so take my post with a healthy dose of salt.

Omgwtfbbq seems to have the best solution to TP-burn issues with PLD and BLM - adjust the mobs to give xp relative to their actual difficulty - EM or DC instead of T-VT. This won't shut down TP-burns totally, it'll just even the balance in regards to a regular tanking+skillchaining party.

Or how about adjusting it so ITs are worth it and add monsters with built exp bonuses and weakness to SC+MB and PLD tanking.

That way, you don't upset your userbase.

If you can keep that up to and past 70, pray tell me what your fighting. I've been stuck at 71 for 5 months now and no mater what I try to solo/make a party/quest for EXP scrolls/whatever, I cannot get out. It's precisely the reason my content I.D.s are deactivated.

You aren't using your brain for this one, kiddo:

Find a monster that is VT or IT at that level range.

Make sure is not immune or resistant to Gravity, Sleep, and perhaps Bind.

???

Profit.

Here is an example:

Snipper/Mamook Crab should be good...

King Buffalo is probably too high for you atm, but you can look into it once you l