What's being done about BLM and Tanks?

[Legal Fish]

Challenge for who, exactly?

These parties are 90% BRD/RDM/COR work and 10% melee work. And I'm being generous and assuming there is a RDM pulling, they're more of a White Mage with Refresh in most parties these days. PTs don't need RDMs for endurance anymore and without the need for enfeebles, that diminishes varying facets of NIN, PLD, COR, BLU, BRD and other jobs.

Melees just kick back and get fed mobs. The challenge is generally on the support/healing members of the party and you just hope the melees don't lose focus.

Good lord, BurningPanther just thanks everyone.

There is no challenge? Surprise, surprise... there was no challenge from SCing and MBing too. A Melee would probably be more awake because he has to switch targets before the one he is figthing dies or he loses two or three potential hits.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There is no challenge? Surprise, surprise... there was no challenge from SCing and MBing too. A Melee would probably be more awake because he has to switch targets before the one he is figthing dies or he loses two or three potential hits.

RDM, BRD or COR have to pull, buff and sleep. Main Healer WHM or RDM have to Maintain Haste, Refresh, Regen and keeping the party alive. All melee requires in TP burn is a pulse, with the exception of THF, BLU and RNG - those melees actually have to think.

[Amele]

You're missing the point. What were the non-paladin low def/eva/HP mobs of the original game and RoZ (leaving aside beastmen, which usually come in an inconvenient mix of jobs)?

except for antican, I don't really see why you say what you do about beastmen: orcs are mostly war, monk, ranger, two of which are quite easy to kill, and one of which lends itself just fine to paladin style face-tanking, which is the standard until 74+ (at which point in RoZ you were fighting weapons or cockatrice anyway)

quadav are mostly mages and are damn squishy besides. - beyond leg sweep (which isn't particularly different than whirling rage, in damage or range) yagudo are primarily sam, nin, bard, whm which is just about an *ideal* mix of jobs.

goblins are excellent and we can level on them at almost every level range now.

- excluding such a significant chunk of mobs is misleading, especially since several of the most popular AU camps are on Mamool (which are a beastman mob) and several tier 2 camps are on beastmen as well (qutrub, trolls, imps, etc).

Scorpions, raptors, pugils (if dispelled), cockatrices, bombs, tigers, spiders, cactuars... Seeing any pattern here? They all had high attack, bloody dangerous TP moves, or both.

oh give me a break. single bat (not tri-bat), bees, birds (the little ones), cockatrice (which are a snap with stona, have you tried exping on them? they're really not bad at all.) coeurl, which are pushovers except for evasion, crawlers, flys, dhalmel,

People leveled on crabs and beetles because they were *afraid* of the offense-oriented mobs.

no, NA leveled on crabs and beetles because that's what the *JP* leveled on, but they also stayed at camps two more levels than we did. There's alot of historical reasons why Crabs and Beetles were chosen but it's not something to get into here.

CoP was even worse with hippogryphs, taurus, clusters and snolls. They actually do die pretty fast, the problem is that you might just die even faster...

again: listing only the 'hard' mobs, and skipping the easy ones is misleading: cop also gave us a million billion dhalmels, more bees, more birds, hpemde, the hippogryphs you mentioned, which just happen to come with a *built in* 10% exp bonus.(and are easy to get to. *And* drop useful farming materials), fomori which are just fine for exp purposes, etc etc.

It took TAU to give us mobs with low defense, low HP *and* low attack and weak TP moves. It broke the mob attack vs. mob defense tradeoff and made monsters that were bad at *everything* except stealing your food and returning magic.

uh, what? pecking flurry routinely does 500+ if someone gets caught by it. that's one of the most devasting single target multihits in the game after big birds triple attack. they hit no weaker than other redmage mobs their level, (I should know; I have to cure people when they get smacked) and have a racial evasion boost on top of what a mob their level should have.

for the 100th time: they're *not* any weaker than other mobs their job and level would be. the reason they're so much better than exp in Conquest areas is because conquest mobs are too weak. not the other way around.

Which, surprise surprise, turns out not to be enough to keep them from being easier than everything else, especially if you're not relying on elemental and enfeebling magic to start with.

they're not easier than everything else. Prove to me they're easier than other mobs of their level and job class, and then I'll accept this argument. (and no. popularity in exp has nothing to do with it, or we'd *never* exp on crabs or beetles).

Not all TAU mobs are like that, of course. Marids, flans, wamoura (both kinds) and soulflayers aren't unbalancingly weak. But it only takes a few mob families that are to redefine what is and isn't good exp/hr.

flans are also 20k/hr with the right group. marids used to be 36k/hr til SE nerfed them. wamoura are easily 12-15k/hr according to my blm friends. soulflayers aren't designed for exp (there's too few and they're too far apart.) you get more exp/hr in ToAU because there are *more* mobs in the right level range, end of story.

And yes, exp in AU *is* brokenly easy. Look at any pre-TAU thread about exp setups, camps and exp rates and the differences will practically club you over the head.

we're stronger than we were then, by three patches to the merit point caps/quantity/ and diversity of meritable abilities.

the mobs we're fighting are also at a better exp point for us.

look at the kill rates projected for sky deco weapons: "kill both rooms, then head back to the start and the first room will be repopping" was the standard theory (hell, you used to be able to support two non-bard parties there). now: same mobs, same space. you'll clear both rooms and wait 5 minutes for the first repop.

Every pre-TAU camp and setup is as good or better *in absolute terms* than it was before (new food, merits, gear, improvements to Signet, improvements to some jobs, less crowding). But all, or almost all, are now *comparative* crap, because you can now underhunt without running out of mobs and get 15% exp bonus and 1 mp/tick for doing it.

yes, 15% exp bonus contributes to it, yes so does 1mp/tick, BUT! the reason CP areas are crap now is because there's not enough mobs and they're not high enough level (except for one standout zone that is 30 minutes away because you *have to walk* and requires a whitemage to port you to the 30 minute away point).

And this is the other major part of the problem (aside from the "bad at everything except 1-2 tricks that aren't that important" mob families). Exp/hr in merit maxes out at really, really, absurdly low monster levels, because monsters of those levels are just worth way too much exp for the fight they put up. If you cut the base exp value of those "VT" mobs by 1/3 to 1/2, then it would bring their exp value:difficulty ratio in line with more challenging mobs.

backward again, prior to toau, there were only a handful of mobs that broke level 80 and weren't NM. (spartoi, aura statues, kindred) and kindred were added in CoP. of those, aura statues are a mob family that is high def low attack and high magic def (classic pld type basically, although I think their job is warrior). spartoi are good but are even less mage friendly than toau because you *have* to either roam or manaburn. and kindred are 30+ minutes away best case.

Removing the huge bonus for picking on such wimpy mobs (level wise, not just family wise) would have a variety of ripple effects that would effectively transform the whole high level exp dynamic to something more balanced and fun.
That's what I want to see, regardless of whether the eventual exp rate (for a wide variety of party setups, which will make about the same in a balanced game)

doing this would actually invalidate all non-taou camps except for KRT, ullikimmi, and Uleg range. (basically half of them.) it wrecks Bibiki, it wrecks moon, it wrecks first floor shrine, it makes kuftal tunnel ovinnik a joke.

Infinite chain might need some looking at too, but the *base* exp value of wimpy mobs is the main problem IMO.

SE planned for infinite chain to be a possibility. ceiling(5 minutes / 40 seconds) = 8 mobs. 8 mobs that are T+ and within pulling range with a 5 minute repop = infinite chain. every major popular outdoor camp has at least 8 mobs. IF SE didn't plan for infinite chain to be a possibility, they wouldn't have coded chains past 5 into the game in the first place.

[Legal Fish]

flans are also 20k/hr with the right group. marids used to be 36k/hr til SE nerfed them. wamoura are easily 12-15k/hr according to my blm friends. soulflayers aren't designed for exp (there's too few and they're too far apart.) you get more exp/hr in ToAU because there are *more* mobs in the right level range, end of story.

I have to disagree with this!

There aren't enough monsters, even if you kill them as they popped, to make chains that high. If only SE didn't nerf Sea's SMNs..


Anyway, you might wasting your breath Amele, I wouldn't be surprised if most of people who argued against your points didn't have a single idea how VIT/Def works or that monster stats are based on jobs.


RDM, BRD or COR have to pull, buff and sleep. Main Healer WHM or RDM have to Maintain Haste, Refresh, Regen and keeping the party alive. All melee requires in TP burn is a pulse, with the exception of THF, BLU and RNG - those melees actually have to think.

You don't include any facts that say these parties are less difficult than a party that uses SC and MB... or even with a tank.

[BurningPanther]

Good lord, BurningPanther just thanks everyone. No, just the people I think have a point.

Exactly what was YOUR point in bringing this up, and exactly what is your problem with it?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

No, just the people I think have a point.

Exactly what was YOUR point in bringing this up, and exactly what is your problem with it?

I think he just feels left out because you didn't thank him. :P

And Legal, the subject of "challenge" in chaining was brought up by you, so the burden of proof on high-chaining being challenging vs. SC/MB is on you.

I was pointing out the lack of challenge in a melee hitting auto-attack and just being fed mobs, the real challenge in those parties lies on healer/support classes. Even tank jobs require little thought or movement in TP burns, so you may as well count them as melee at that point.

I take it that you've never really pulled for any kind of meleeburn PT and the constant pressure it entails. Roaming manaburns are one thing and there's a point where every BLM can claim or Duo kill there, its not like melee burn PTs where mobs have to be lined up constantly, where haste and buffs must be kept up constantly. And its not something RDM and THF are as apt at doing as BRD and COR are, so its really impressive when they pull it off.

The challenge is not with the melee, they didn't do much to make those chains happen other than stand there and hit Attack and a WS macro. Whoopee.

Oh ok, sometimes there's a Chi Blast or Provoke. Sometimes thoughts are displayed, but its really just Attack/WS. Where is the "challenge" in that?

[Legal Fish]

And Legal, the subject of "challenge" in chaining was brought up by you, so the burden of proof on high-chaining being challenging vs. SC/MB is on you.

I don't have a problem with it, but it's sort of an eyesore. You seem to have a habit of thanking people instead of talking yourself, that's no way to get your point across.


And Legal, the subject of "challenge" in chaining was brought up by you, so the burden of proof on high-chaining being challenging vs. SC/MB is on you.

How am I to fulfill this burden exactly? Melees waiting to hit "switch target" and keeping shadows up isn't exactly less difficult than waiting until their buddy has TP, then pushing their WS macro.

And honestly, what the hell are you talking about? Why are you comparing melee to mage? We are talking about party comparisons.

[BurningPanther]

Calling me out is an eyesore. The "Thanks!" feature is there for use with whom one sees fit, as I saw fit to thank 'kitten's post, which doesn't need a post from me in turn. If you dislike the aesthetic attribute of the feature, take it up with the site designer/Admin/whoever. Don't single me out otherwise.

[Sevv]

RDM, BRD or COR have to pull, buff and sleep. Main Healer WHM or RDM have to Maintain Haste, Refresh, Regen and keeping the party alive. All melee requires in TP burn is a pulse, with the exception of THF, BLU and RNG - those melees actually have to think.


Anyone notice how bbq said all his jobs are hard and rng doesn't require any thinking lol no melee job does. If you have to think about what you need to do as melee at 75 your doing it wrong. Melee in exp is much much much easier than mages. No matter what the mobs are, melee is nice and easy.

[Legal Fish]

Anyone notice how bbq said all his jobs are hard and rng doesn't require any thinking lol no melee job does. If you have to think about what you need to do as melee at 75 your doing it wrong. Melee in exp is much much much easier than mages. No matter what the mobs are, melee is nice and easy.

He plays FFXI THE REAL WAY.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Anyone notice how bbq said all his jobs are hard and rng doesn't require any thinking lol no melee job does. If you have to think about what you need to do as melee at 75 your doing it wrong. Melee in exp is much much much easier than mages. No matter what the mobs are, melee is nice and easy.

Ranger requires a bit more effort than other melees. Not by much - especially so for the RNGs of old pre-nerf, they phoned in their melee almost just a badly as other melees today - but it requires an active presence. People kinda notice when RNG isn't shooting and taking down mobs at 1/3 or 1/2 HP.

RNG actually does have the ability to enfeeble, too, my Xbow macros are no different than how my RDM macros were lined up for the most part. I have my arrows tiered off in different macros as well. I mean, if you want to spam off Kabura and Demon arrows, that's your call, I'm gonna toss in a few Marid Arrows, man. Comprable damage and it saves me gil.

Demon arrows will lessen damage taken.
Acid Bolts - like Angon - will lower mob defense.
Then there's Blind, Venom and Holy bolts if you care to use those.

And I'm not just saying RDM, BRD and COR because they are or have been my jobs, those jobs are busier than most others and it never ends. Only jobs that can hope to compare are PLD, NIN and WHM after that. Or a good BLU or SMN, which will look beyond the Physical Spells to use enfeeble or support as needed.

[Amele]

I have to disagree with this!
There aren't enough monsters, even if you kill them as they popped, to make chains that high. If only SE didn't nerf Sea's SMNs..

ah, thanks for the heads up on flans: I had been told by a couple friends they could infinite chain for <30seconds which put them in the 18k+ range (which I rounded since the conversation has mostly been about exp/hr tiers of 5, 10, 15, 20 and not specific camp maximums). if there aren't enough then that calculation is obviously incorrect :) thanks for the tip.

Anyway, you might wasting your breath Amele, I wouldn't be surprised if most of people who argued against your points didn't have a single idea how VIT/Def works or that monster stats are based on jobs.

well, you may be right, but it's an interesting argument either way ^^ and honestly, it's useful to find out what people do and don't think about the game. (it's been surprising to me how many people don't know/remember the level range of conquest level mobs, so I'll start pointing it out sooner next time someone on my ls complains about the state of exp, lol)

The challenge is not with the melee, they didn't do much to make those chains happen other than stand there and hit Attack and a WS macro. Whoopee.

it's interesting because SC+MB is really just /attack /ws too. the only difference is, instead of trying to judge when to use it to make the kill, and when to hold it because the damage would be wasted and 2 seconds off this mob we're going to chain anyway isn't going to be worth not saving 5 seconds on the next mob. instead of waiting the SC+MB for the same reason.

tanks aren't particularly more challenging in exp at 75 either (if it is, you're doing something wrong). and the pace of most SC+MB parties is slow enough that even mages have an easy time of it.

on the other hand, unlike in SC+MB where the party is setup such that it's solely the blm determining whether or not you make the next chain, every single melee has some direct control on it in a modern merit.

I thank my stars for good melee, when I get them. Mages may be the glue that holds a modern merit party together, but it's the melee who do the killing and the faster they can kill, the faster the bard can pull, and the more exp we *all* get.

[Legal Fish]

my Xbow macros

THF, WAR, and DRK all can and, if they are any good(especially THF), do use Xbow to enfeeble.

Also, nothing you said really contradicts RNG being as simple as any other melee. I mean really... are we suppose to be impressed you switch ammo during battle? Wow, that's completely different from switching gear! RNG is likely to be less busier than NIN, WAR, or MNK who's tanking.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

There is no challenge? Surprise, surprise... there was no challenge from SCing and MBing too. A Melee would probably be more awake because he has to switch targets before the one he is figthing dies or he loses two or three potential hits.
I never thought that SCing as a melee was all that difficult. Learning to read a SC chart is a little challenging. Forming a party with the right mix of jobs to actually take advantage of a good SC + MB was difficult. Once the party was at camp, and it came time to perform the SC? Cake. I find myself having to pay much closer to attention to things and be far more active in a TP burn party. In TP burn, any melee attacks after I've already hit 100+ TP is wasted TP. Meanwhile, in the SC + MB pt, I usually wind up standing around with 150 TP just staring at the screen, either waiting for a SC partner or trying not to interfere with the players who are part of the SC.

[IfritnoItazura]

I thank my stars for good melee, when I get them. Mages may be the glue that holds a modern merit party together, but it's the melee who do the killing and the faster they can kill, the faster the bard can pull, and the more exp we *all* get.

Hmm. How often does that "we" there include PLD? THF? SMN? BST? BLM? ... PUP?!

Can that "we" ever be formed without a BRD? Would you be thanking your stars if you're invited to a TP spam party without one?


* * *

WS spam party is good, but the problem is that it's too good compared to other setups. I don't think the majority of players against them want them to be nerfed out of existence, but merely want the difference between WS spam and SC+MB parties to be reduced.

Ultimately, I want every job to be able to exp in full party of some sort. Without begging or taking pity invites "because there's no one else seeking". >_>; Also, I want no job to be an absolute requirement--there shouldn't be a requirement for BRD before WS Spam or any other sort of party can hit "par" in exp/hour.

[Sevv]

Hmm. How often does that "we" there include PLD? THF? SMN? BST? BLM? ... PUP?!
Can that "we" ever be formed without a BRD? Would you be thanking your stars if you're invited to a TP spam party without one?
* * *
WS spam party is good, but the problem is that it's too good compared to other setups. I don't think the majority of players against them want them to be nerfed out of existence, but merely want the difference between WS spam and SC+MB parties to be reduced.
Ultimately, I want every job to be able to exp in full party of some sort. Without begging or taking pity invites "because there's no one else seeking". >_>; Also, I want no job to be an absolute requirement--there shouldn't be a requirement for BRD before WS Spam or any other sort of party can hit "par" in exp/hour.


So we had a cool couple tp burn pt the other nights just because people throw out blah blah blah /emo not all jobs can burn.

War/Nin Thf/Nin Bst/Nin War/Nin Smn/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr

War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Pup/War Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Nyzule Isle SP (on mamjools) 25k/hr

War/Nin War/Nin Mnk/Nin Pld/Nin Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr

Nin/War War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Bst/Nin Rdm/Whm
Nyzule Isle 17k/hr

So if you get good players it really doesn't matter exact jobs in the pt you can still pull good exp.

[Karinya]

Imbalances between party setups create imbalances between jobs that are crucial to those setups, jobs that are welcome and jobs that are tolerated if no better job is seeking. That's a big problem for the BLM and tanks. (Some tank jobs are allowed in meleeburn if they promise not to try to tank.)


P.S. By "good melee" you mean "well-equipped melee", whether you realize it or not. Melee performance is 95% gear, which is the point that all of these "melee in this party takes no skill, melee in that party takes no skill" posts are dancing around. And there's two things that will reliably get you better gear faster than other players: being in a LS with people who cheat to claim timer-pop HNMs, and RMT.

[Karinya]

So we had a cool couple tp burn pt the other nights just because people throw out blah blah blah /emo not all jobs can burn.
War/Nin Thf/Nin Bst/Nin War/Nin Smn/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Pup/War Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Nyzule Isle SP (on mamjools) 25k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin Mnk/Nin Pld/Nin Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
Nin/War War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Bst/Nin Rdm/Whm
Nyzule Isle 17k/hr
So if you get good players it really doesn't matter exact jobs in the pt you can still pull good exp.
Wait, what? All of your examples have at least two war/nins and three out of four of them have a bard. And the one that doesn't have a bard got significantly less exp.

None had any two handed weapon user (except H2H). None had a WHM or a BLM. In fact, out of four parties, 24 people, only 10 jobs total are represented. All had at least four people using NIN main or sub, usually 5.

How does this prove that the jobs in the party don't matter? It sure looks like it's proving exactly the opposite: utsusemi and bards are good, other things are bad.


Furthermore, although this may surprise you, I didn't level PLD so I could be a crappy substitute for WAR/NIN, using my gimpy imitation Rampage with my gimpy imitation Ridill and my gimpy imitation Adaberk. I leveled a job that could tank, and was useful as a tank. I'm not exactly thrilled to have the rug pulled out from under the concept of tanking by the shadowspam party concept. Yes, I could blow a couple million on DD gear and be a mediocre DD, but why? Using PLD as a DD is like using a violin as a flyswatter. That's not what it's for, even if it is kinda sorta effective sometimes.

Again, although I hate shadowspam, I'm not asking for it to be wiped out of existence. I *am* asking for exp/hr parity with other forms of exp parties, so that I can form a type of party I like, with the jobs that work well in that party, and get approximately the same exp as people who have mastered the challenging skill of hitting their Utsusemi macro *and* their Rampage macro while wearing leet kings/faf drops.

[Lmnop]

So we had a cool couple tp burn pt the other nights just because people throw out blah blah blah /emo not all jobs can burn.
War/Nin Thf/Nin Bst/Nin War/Nin Smn/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Pup/War Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Nyzule Isle SP (on mamjools) 25k/hr
War/Nin War/Nin Mnk/Nin Pld/Nin Rdm/Whm Brd/Nin
Mamjool SP 24k/hr
Nin/War War/Nin War/Nin War/Nin Bst/Nin Rdm/Whm
Nyzule Isle 17k/hr
So if you get good players it really doesn't matter exact jobs in the pt you can still pull good exp.

You're right and I thank you for being open minded enough to bring along some of those "less desired" jobs. I especially like the first layout -- thf bst and smn. That's about as unloved as it gets. However, I can't help but notice that the bare minimum amount of Warriors in those set ups is 2. The only layout that doesn't have a Bard has 4 people who use Rampage.

It's like "we can take some of those jobs, but we need to be at least half ideal?" I know this sounds like I'm bitching but honestly... I think this is exactly where we need to start. Having an almost-perfect TP burn party with a few underloved jobs tossed in and performing no worse for it. Not only does this do the obvious - getting a few of those guys spots in parties that'll get more than 5k/hour - it also exposes the top dog jobs to what those dragoons and beastmasters can do.

I would like some of my mage friends to see what my DRG friends are capable of w/out making my DDs /anon.

Baby steps.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Imbalances between party setups create imbalances between jobs that are crucial to those setups, jobs that are welcome and jobs that are tolerated if no better job is seeking. That's a big problem for the BLM and tanks. (Some tank jobs are allowed in meleeburn if they promise not to try to tank.)


P.S. By "good melee" you mean "well-equipped melee", whether you realize it or not. Melee performance is 95% gear, which is the point that all of these "melee in this party takes no skill, melee in that party takes no skill" posts are dancing around.

And as Lmnop pointed out, people will take a noob trash WAR just as much as they'll take the seasoned WAR, its just a matter of who accepts the fastest. So its not even about the gear, just class perception. Here's one instance where nothing has changed between any expansion.

"X Popular Job = Good"

Therefore, invite X Popular Job over anything else seeking. I suppose there is one difference from that trend today, its that people don't give any thought of how to integrate other jobs in with that job. Just stack in a few melees and go, preferably of the X variety.

And there's two things that will reliably get you better gear faster than other players: being in a LS with people who cheat to claim timer-pop HNMs, and RMT.

Well, to be honest, I've seen non-Ridill WARs outparse Ridill WARs, so even with melee jobs being 95% gear, you also still need to be able to use it all properly. So not every cheater wins for bot claiming or going through RMT.

[Richie]

Wow this is long. I skimmed through most of it so if someone already said this then oops.

I'm sick of sitting in white gate with 30 people LFG for a merit pt but no one wants to start one or join my group when I start one because there are no bards online.
It's like they forgot it was possible to gain XP without a bard. What gets your more xp? Sitting in whitegate waiting 2 hours for a bard or partying without a bard?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Its pretty much the same thing as RNG pre-nerf, you couldn't get a PT to leave Jeuno if you didn't have at least one RNG, two was even better. It was infuriating at times, becuse you had like 30 other melees the same level seeking and the leader wouldn't invite them.

I took advantage of the fact that I was a BRD at that time, I just left those PTs. I figured turnabout was fair play on such leaders, so I'd go EXP with those other melees seeking instead and take the others with me.

[Legal Fish]

I've seen non-Ridill WARs outparse Ridill WARs

I call bullshit on this. The Ridil WAR had to be wearing some pretty lol gear or at least main handing the Ridil for this to happen.

[Malacite]

Its pretty much the same thing as RNG pre-nerf, you couldn't get a PT to leave Jeuno if you didn't have at least one RNG, two was even better. It was infuriating at times, becuse you had like 30 other melees the same level seeking and the leader wouldn't invite them.

I took advantage of the fact that I was a BRD at that time, I just left those PTs. I figured turnabout was fair play on such leaders, so I'd go EXP with those other melees seeking instead and take the others with me.


You get a free Thanks for that ^^b

[Amele]

Hmm. How often does that "we" there include PLD? THF? SMN? BST? BLM? ... PUP?!
Can that "we" ever be formed without a BRD? Would you be thanking your stars if you're invited to a TP spam party without one?
* * *

yes, and yes. I've partied without bards semi regularly. you don't go to nyzul camp without a bard, but you can and do do fine without one. (the rdm pulls typically in this case, since he can sleep stuff too.) as for those jobs in specific: I've pt'd semi-regularly with all of them except for pup (because I don't know any 75 pups and never see one seeking) and blackmages I've only partied with in manaburns (usually KRT) summoner I usually only pt with when it's an ls party, because pickups don't invite two healer-only party members.


WS spam party is good, but the problem is that it's too good compared to other setups. I don't think the majority of players against them want them to be nerfed out of existence, but merely want the difference between WS spam and SC+MB parties to be reduced.

name jobs besides blackmage (which can do 15k/hr in another party setup) that can't fit into a modern merit party? at least when compared to arrowburns the DD selection is more diverse than ranger and sam/rng.

Ultimately, I want every job to be able to exp in full party of some sort. Without begging or taking pity invites "because there's no one else seeking". >_>; Also, I want no job to be an absolute requirement--there shouldn't be a requirement for BRD before WS Spam or any other sort of party can hit "par" in exp/hour.

SC+MB requires a blackmage. ws spam without a bard is rarely better than 12k/hr unless your melee are absolutely *pimp*. SC+MB when done smart on the right mobs (sup qutrub) can match that without a bard.

I appreciate that tanks don't always want to DD and would rather, well. tank. I'd sure like to get to use spells besides cure III, cure V, regen III, haste, and Silence - but I have endgame events for that; so do tanks.

[Sevv]

You're right and I thank you for being open minded enough to bring along some of those "less desired" jobs. I especially like the first layout -- thf bst and smn.

That was a very fun party all LS PT, as well.

That's about as unloved as it gets. However, I can't help but notice that the bare minimum amount of Warriors in those set ups is 2. The only layout that doesn't have a Bard has 4 people who use Rampage.
It's like "we can take some of those jobs, but we need to be at least half ideal?"

This was mainly because that was who was seeking from my ls or their friends at the time. Penta on a drg/sam works just as well.


I know this sounds like I'm bitching but honestly... I think this is exactly where we need to start. Having an almost-perfect TP burn party with a few underloved jobs tossed in and performing no worse for it. Not only does this do the obvious - getting a few of those guys spots in parties that'll get more than 5k/hour - it also exposes the top dog jobs to what those dragoons and beastmasters can do.

Before I leveled my war you know I was a Dragoon. I was the drg/sam in a pt keeping up in the parse. Sadly most of the 75 drgs on ifrit have bad gear/don't care and quickly got the invite rate for most drgs down again. Beastmasters on ifrit never were lfp but maybe one or two of them who I use to invite. Bst are war with pets basically lol. Like you say this is a start, well maybe for some people but this is usually how I party. Mainly i hope that the others will do it too but who knows, that is why I'm defensive about tp burns.


I would like some of my mage friends to see what my DRG friends are capable of w/out making my DDs /anon.
Drg is one of the most under rated dds other than bst, but each drg has to really take pride in their job to do great (not saying your friends don't)

Baby steps.

Now to get it to spread past the people who have been doing it.

I call bullshit on this. The Ridil WAR had to be wearing some pretty lol gear or at least main handing the Ridil for this to happen.

I call bs on you bs... I outparsed ridill warriors in my ls, and he didn't have lolgear. By 7% as well lol.

[Amele]

I call bs on you bs... I outparsed ridill warriors in my ls, and he didn't have lolgear. By 7% as well lol.

well, ignoring for a second that up to 3% is within the margin of error for an exp parse (since you claim 7%):

what job were you on? what weapon(s) were you using? excluding ridill what was the rest of his gear like? (how much haste, how much accuracy) was he eating the right food for his setup? which axe was he mainhanding? who was tanking? (tanking can easily trim 5%+ off your Damage potential)

basically there's alot of ways a war/ridill can lose a parse. but that's sort of the point - unless your gearset is sick or you're a BB monk or another ridill war, you don't win the parse as much as that ridill war just lost the parse.

*disclaimer: I don't think that ridill wars are the end-all-be-all melee damage class in the game, in fact, in many situations that ridill can actually be a liability. But! for merit purposes, if you had to pick one 'king' - it's hard not to vote for the ridill.

[Sevv]

well, ignoring for a second that up to 3% is within the margin of error for an exp parse (since you claim 7%):
what job were you on? what weapon(s) were you using? excluding ridill what was the rest of his gear like? (how much haste, how much accuracy) was he eating the right food for his setup? which axe was he mainhanding? who was tanking? (tanking can easily trim 5%+ off your Damage potential)
basically there's alot of ways a war/ridill can lose a parse. but that's sort of the point - unless your gearset is sick or you're a BB monk or another ridill war, you don't win the parse as much as that ridill war just lost the parse.
*disclaimer: I don't think that ridill wars are the end-all-be-all melee damage class in the game, in fact, in many situations that ridill can actually be a liability. But! for merit purposes, if you had to pick one 'king' - it's hard not to vote for the ridill.


1) My war
2) Man-Eater ~ Joy
3) Good Normal war gear not gimped.
4) Juggy
5) I was tanking

[Lmnop]

BS on the BS of BSs or something. I'll just note that:

YES, a Ridill Warrior can be outparsed. A Ridill Warrior that doesn't have sword merits and lacks a haste set up. They'd still have a good set up (2x Woodsmans, haub, normal decent AH gear). In fact, since I only play 8-10 hours/week, this is a lot like what my equipment is. I think I do pretty well. But if I had a Ridill, i'd do twice as well.

Now look at the Warrior who has time and does pretty much every end game activity on a regular basis. With some excellent gear, an axe/axe build can keep up. This is mainly because your Rampages aren't lol and your per-swing damage is monstrous. Said Warrior attaining a Ridill is when we get what I'd like to call "broken."

Also, it's amazing how much more damage/fight you get if you're the first to engage. Ever notice how the NIN vokes and the DDs rush to meet it instead of standing by the NIN? The standers are 3-4 seconds behind on swing time from the rushers. That's potentially 100 damage lost. Doesn't seem like much but when everyone's doing 9-1400 damage/fight, that's ~8% of your damage.

Annnnnd one more thing: Ridill Warriors will pull hate and get Feather Tickled more. :P

[Amele]

3) Good Normal war gear not gimped.

wanted more specific, but I guess it's not really a big deal. outparsing a warrior with another warrior isn't news, especially since I'd assume you had sword merits if you were using a joyeuse offhand.

would you agree that if you had all of your gear, but a ridill instead of a joyeuse, that you would outparse yourself? I think that's the thrust of what others (and certainly myself) have been trying to say.

[Sevv]

wanted more specific, but I guess it's not really a big deal. outparsing a warrior with another warrior isn't news, especially since I'd assume you had sword merits if you were using a joyeuse offhand.
would you agree that if you had all of your gear, but a ridill instead of a joyeuse, that you would outparse yourself? I think that's the thrust of what others (and certainly myself) have been trying to say.


Oh i'm not saying that me with a ridill wouldn't be better because it would i was simply responding to brp's you can't do that comment. My war gear is set - ridill aberk lol. or maybe a +1 here or there.

[Legal Fish]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to doubt you. There must have been something the WAR was doing to make himself fall behind, especially if you were both WAR and you weren't tanking advantage of some kind ability or monster weakness. He probably should of been main handing Maneater... was he eating Sushi? When you say decent gear, do you mean worst than yours? By how much?