WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

[Celeal]

Does anyone tried WAR/SAM or partied with WAR/SAM?

I have been using this combo from level 64 to 66. The TP-gain is very amazing. Open the battle with Full Break, and have the TP-gain to add a Raging Rush in the same fight is so evil! :evil:

For those who enjoy using G.Axe, it is worthed to level up SAM to WAR/SAM. :thumbsup:

[NicasinXS]

Sounds awesome.

Heres to innovation among players. ^-^'

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I partied with a WAR/SAM a couple of months ago. I think I was high 68 or 69, and he was a level or two higher than me. We were exp'ing on Imps and Jnun in the Mire.

Given that with Imps, Amnsesia tends to be on you 50% of the time you're actually fighting, I don't remember seeing him spam WSs.

The usefulness of /SAM probably depends largely on the party type and mob selection. If you only fight one mob every 3 minutes, you can reliably use Meditate to WS twice per fight. But I've been in some TP burns where we've fought 40 mobs in an hour (which boils down to one mob every 1.5 minutes, so Meditate would only kick in every other fight).

Still, Hasso might be useful even in those situations. From what I can gather, Hasso benefits will max out at +5 STR, +5 acc and +5% attack speed for a WAR75/SAM37.

Sounds awesome.

Heres to innovation among players. ^-^'
It's not really innovative. /SAM used to be a powerhouse sub about 3 years ago, before TP return on multi-hit WSs was adjusted. After that, it became less common as an exp sub, but was still a useful sub for skill ups and latent breaking. It recently picked up in popularity as an exp sub when Hasso and Seigan were added.


Edit: I misread wiki regarding Hasso. Only the STR boost of Hasso changes based on level. The acc boost (+10) and increased attack speed (+10%) are static.

[Ziero]

Don't forget about Zanshin, which is now a lvl 20 job trait and subable. I currently have my Sam at 30 and plan to get it to 37 before I take War past 60. I <3 my Gaxe so any excuse I can get to use it I will. That's not to say I don't like /nin sub, as dual wielding *is* fun, I just like to have all my options open.

[Eji Kazuma]

WAR/SAM is my main on my other character, War 40/Sam 20. I love the combo, I can do some VERY nice damage. I imagine it will get better though once I hit 50 and get Hassao(sp). Just have to find the time to level my other character... LOL

I use Great Swords as opposed to Great Axes, so the extra TP boost really makes for some highly Damaging Power Slashs, or Hard Slashs. Other GS weaponskills seem to be reliant on Int. because even with decent TP I don't do nearly as much damage with them as I do with Hard/Power Slash.

Zanshin is a great addative, and while Third Eye isn't as helpful as Utsusemi... I would definatly say that Samurai Abillities Compliment the Warrior job much better then Ninja or Monk does.

[Lmnop]

I just got harassed by no less than 6 people last night for being war/sam.

I'll give you my running commentary when I get home tonight.

[Vyuru]

Thanks Lmnop, I'm looking forward to seeing it ^^

[Eji Kazuma]

Man, What I Enjoy is when they harrass me for being War/Rng and then during the first pull I kill the monster by myself. =P That's allways fun cause then you see like 5 "Oh Shit.. WTF?" Then again, My War is only 30 on this character sooo we're still talking Yhoater Jungle here, but yanno it's still cool.

EDIT: I remember when I was out in Yuhtunga Jungle around level 26 and I was subbing Rng, I would tear the mob to peices and I'd have people from other PT's checking me left and right. LOL it was pretty sick stuff.

[Malacite]

WAR/SAM is my main on my other character, War 40/Sam 20. I love the combo, I can do some VERY nice damage. I


You want nice damage sub THF. It's often a deathwish, but nothing will top SA (or SATA if you can) + Sturmwind. You're not getting anything really worthwhile out of /SAM until 50, by which point /NIN starts to really take off too (I prefer /SAM to /NIN though personally)

[Celeal]

Yea, I understand how you feel too, Lmnop. Remember in the old days NA players used to look down on WAR and MNK as main job (lvl 37+).

At this moment, I believe that with the skill gap difference between G.Axe and Axe after level 60, WAR/SAM has the potential, if someone comes up with a powerful gear setup or tactic for WAR/SAM.

From my brief experience with WAR/SAM (3 parties sessions), Full-Break (opening) + Raging Rush is great for standard parties: IT mobs, chain #5 max. The effect of Full-Break is noticable if the party does not have BRD, COR or SMN buffs.

For a TP-burn parties, I don't know how well a WAR/SAM can perform.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Don't forget about Zanshin, which is now a lvl 20 job trait and subable.
Zanshin is a strange beast. As one player brutally said regarding Zanshin, "The more you suck, the better it works." I prefer to look at it as an indirect accuracy boost.

Zanshin allows you to attack after a miss, and I have to assume that your accuracy on the Zanshin attack will be the same as your overall accuracy (I have seen no information to imply that you will have greater accuracy on the Zanshin follow through). So if you have high accuracy already through your gear/food, you'll make the most of the Zanshin attacks that occur, but they won't occur that often due to your high accuracy. If you have low accuracy to begin with, Zanshin has more of a chance to proc, but your low accuracy means those extra attacks are less likely to connect.

If your rate of accuracy is X, and the proc rate of Zanshin is Z, then your new accuracy with Zanshin comes out to...

X + (1 - X) * (X) * (Z)

I arrived at this because Zanshin only kicks in for those attacks you miss (the "1-X"), and only for a certain percentage of those misses, and then you have to factor in your accuracy affecting those extra attacks.

According to wiki, Zanshin procs "about as frequently as Double Attack", and it places the proc rate for Double Attack at 10% (without any gear of food to modify proc rate). So here's a table showing the accuracy boost you get with Zanshin for different accuracy ranges, assuming a 10% Zanshin proc rate:

Base Acc New Acc Acc added
w/ Zanshin by Zanshin
25% 26.88 % 1.88 %
50% 52.5 % 2.5 %
75% 76.88 % 1.88 %
80% 81.6 % 1.6 %
90% 90.9 % 0.9 %
95% 95.48 % 0.48 %


Edit: anyone know how to get pre-formatted text to show up in a monospaced font?

[Lunaryn]

code is the correct bbcode tag. It may not be supported here due to the fact that program source is not normally posted here. The best option I can suggest is to set the font explicitly to Courier New and see if you can put non-breaking spaces in. HTML-style escaped characters are not supported either, so this may take some experimentation.

[Lunaryn]

Base Acc..New Acc........Acc added
..........w/ Zanshin.....by Zanshin
25%........26.88 %.........1.88 %
50%........52.50 %.........2.50 %
75%........76.88 %.........1.88 %
80%........81.60 %.........1.60 %
90%........90.90 %.........0.90 %
95%........95.48 %.........0.48 %

This good enough?

[Armando]

Still, Hasso might be useful even in those situations. From what I can gather, Hasso benefits will max out at +5 STR, +5 acc and +5% attack speed for a WAR75/SAM37.Hasso's Accuracy bonus and Attack Speed increase are both fixed at 10/10%. Only the STR fluctuates with level.I use Great Swords as opposed to Great Axes, so the extra TP boost really makes for some highly Damaging Power Slashs, or Hard Slashs. Other GS weaponskills seem to be reliant on Int. because even with decent TP I don't do nearly as much damage with them as I do with Hard/Power Slash.I honestly don't mean to harass you, but please, please, please do yourself and your parties a huge favor and use Great Axe. Nothing even comes close to Great Axe from 1-40 simply because Shield Break borders on broken at the low levels, and either way no WS beats out the raw power of Sturmwind. I'd go as far as saying Great Axe is the best weapon from 1-48 in 99% of the situations. -40 Evasion on the mob is just too big to ignore, AND it lets you land Acid Bolts easier.

Also, don't save TP past 100 deliberately. It's a waste.

Lmnop, I'm looking forward to reading about your WAR/SAM experience.

[Lmnop]

I've fought crawlers in Mt. Zhayolm (level 68 - no Seigan so PLD tank), I've fought Sea Puks in Bhaflau (level 71 -- they're VT high evasion with +50 acc), Greater Colibri from Nyzul Isle (rather evasive, but not bad. Got nothin' on Sea Puks), Gobs/Dhalmal in Bibiki Bay, and raptors/cocks in Kuftal Tunnel. Since I never really party longer than 2 hours, I've had a lot of parties just getting 2 levels.

Gobs in Bibiki were fun -- I had one party (level 70 or 71) where the only real melee were me and a DRK. Since we had so much support, we were super-buffed all the time and both subbing Samurai. both of us @~40-45% haste (not sure how much marches give from a level 70 BRD as opposed to level 75) when you figure Hasso, and a good PLD tank besides. Kill speed was still a wee bit slow, mostly because DRKs are still trained to fear Souleater instead of getting behind PLDs and letting loose.

The other night, I was in a party (Greater Colibri) where Corsair was only Refresh, and I spent most of the night with Evoker's Roll as a result (Pld, Blu, Cor, Whm, Drg, War). I'm not going to go into details, but basically the blu had already made a comment regarding that I couldn't pull as /sam. Later, noting that I always had some form of refresh on me, I said I should've gotten Sanction Refresh so that I could use my Rune Chopper (if Evoker's averages 2 mp/tic, auto refresh would be #3 which would sustain it indefinately and give me +5 acc, +9% haste for a -2 DMG trade off). It wasn't long after that I started getting tells from all of the BLU's HNM LS about how much of a noob I am and how I should be swinging dual axes.

And then some of them started coming out to our camp so they could harass me there.

Funny, I wonder if they realized that that party was 4/6 friends. The Whm, Pld, and Drg are all some of my best friends. I didn't tell them what was going on, because they would've just kicked the BLU. Instead, I went out of my way to be kind to the BLU and try to be the bigger man.

There you have it. Harassment, and when confronted with "Why" they all say "because you can Double Attack both hands" -.- They have no response except Lol's when I point out that happens literally 1% of the time. Even a level 75 MNK didn't seem to notice that double attack usually only proc's on one hand?

I forget that people in-game aren't as clever as most of you.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Later, noting that I always had some form of refresh on me, I said I should've gotten Sanction Refresh so that I could use my Rune Chopper (if Evoker's averages 2 mp/tic, auto refresh would be #3 which would sustain it indefinately and give me +5 acc, +9% haste for a -2 DMG trade off). It wasn't long after that I started getting tells from all of the BLU's HNM LS about how much of a noob I am and how I should be swinging dual axes.

And then some of them started coming out to our camp so they could harass me there.
Sounds like those players haven't learned how to process negative emotions without having to hurt other people just to make themselves feel better.

Look on the bright side... since you were their target, you probably saved some poor puppies from getting kicked around that night.

[Celeal]

Unless WAR/SAM + G.Axe is hurting the party's performance, or WAR/NIN's performance is much better than WAR/SAM, there is nothing wrong to WAR/SAM.

That BLU's comment of /SAM cannot pull is very noobish. If one Third Eye and 30 seconds is not enough for pulling, something is wrong with the player or the camp location.

[Eji Kazuma]

Yeah... I would say that players like that who can't play any class combination other then what is the norm or what is laid out before them really should just go to WoW. Mindless slaughtering for mindless players...

I honestly don't mean to harass you, but please, please, please do yourself and your parties a huge favor and use Great Axe. Nothing even comes close to Great Axe from 1-40 simply because Shield Break borders on broken at the low levels, and either way no WS beats out the raw power of Sturmwind. I'd go as far as saying Great Axe is the best weapon from 1-48 in 99% of the situations. -40 Evasion on the mob is just too big to ignore, AND it lets you land Acid Bolts easier.


I understand that Great Axe is the best for warriors... and I'd like to say I understood the power of Shield Break or Sturmwind, but I honestly don't like Great Axes, so I've never really used one.

My level 40 War has a 0 in G.Axe, and 0 in regular axe... and my level 30 War on this character has a 6 in both. I tried to give Axes a chance... but they just don't appeal to me.

I know, this probably means that I won't be able to take Warrior very far, because most people believe very adamantly that this is the only way to go... but unfortunetly I just don't believe in playing the game the way someone else wants me to play... I also don't see a purpose in paying for something I don't enjoy.

It's kinda the same thing you see all over the place... how someone demands that you use a certain subjob or they won't invite you to their party. From what I see, that's the same as saying "You play by my rules or you don't play at all."


EDIT: Also, I have noticed on a Consistant basis that skills which deal critical damage based on the %age of TP when used Deal more damage with higher then 100% TP. For Example, Powerslash... However Powerslash is a very Inconsistant Weaponskill because of it's nature... so I don't know if there is any kind of formula for this.

[Armando]

I know, this probably means that I won't be able to take Warrior very far, because most people believe very adamantly that this is the only way to go... but unfortunetly I just don't believe in playing the game the way someone else wants me to play... I also don't see a purpose in paying for something I don't enjoy.

It's kinda the same thing you see all over the place... how someone demands that you use a certain subjob or they won't invite you to their party. From what I see, that's the same as saying "You play by my rules or you don't play at all."I understand where you're coming from; the problem is that Shield Break is too good to ignore. It doesn't just make a big difference for you, it makes a big difference for every DD in the party. It makes killing a lot faster, and therefore everyone gets a lot of EXP per hour. If the difference between Great Sword and Great Axe were marginal, sure, enjoy - just like if the difference between WAR/SAM and WAR/NIN is slim, then going WAR/SAM should be ok regardless of what the cookie-cutter combo is. But if you deliberately end up gimping yourself and the party, then it's not ok.

There's a saying that goes something along the lines of "It's your $12.95, but in a party it's our $64.75." You wouldn't like partying with a PLD that uses spears just because sword and shield doesn't appeal to him, or a MNK that uses poles because he thinks bo staves are cool.Also, I have noticed on a Consistant basis that skills which deal critical damage based on the %age of TP when used Deal more damage with higher then 100% TP. For Example, Powerslash... However Powerslash is a very Inconsistant Weaponskill because of it's nature... so I don't know if there is any kind of formula for this.This is true, but two 100% Power Slashes will outperform one 200% Power Slash, and two 100% Hard Slashes will outperform one 200% Hard Slash. For formulas I suggest you go to VZX's FFXI Doc (http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/index.htm).

Back on topic: Damn, Lmnop, that thing with the BLU really sucked. I can't believe his LS buddies came all the way out there to harass you, that's pretty retarded right there. How did you feel you performed in comparison to going WAR/NIN, though? Did you party side by side with any WAR/NINs, for that matter? And what weapon were you using Wardancer?

[Celeal]

edit:
err.. i was wrong with the Hasso part, plz forget it...
/end edit

Edit:
As for comparing with WAR/NIN, 3 weeks ago I had a party with another WAR/NIN while I was using WAR/SAM. My WAR was level 65 and leveled up to 66 in that same party:

The camp location is at Mount Z(tab) and fighting fire-crawlers. I cannot remember the party setup (it has been 3 weeks), but the main tank was a PLD, and there was a BRD in the party.

The WAR/NIN was level 66 when the party started, my WAR/SAM was level 65, a few K TNL. I was the puller in the party.

I don't have parser, but I think my performance as WAR/SAM is a draw with the WAR/NIN: When going-all-out, The WAR/NIN did use his shadows, and I did use my Third Eye and run behind the PLD for Cover. Overall the WAR/NIN take less damage than my WAR/SAM while riding the hate-line, but my WAR/SAM unleashed more WS (Raging Rush every fight, plus additional Full Break every other fight) than the WAR/NIN.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

It's kinda the same thing you see all over the place... how someone demands that you use a certain subjob or they won't invite you to their party. From what I see, that's the same as saying "You play by my rules or you don't play at all."
It's more like, if you want to play with other people, you better be ready to compromise a bit on your preferences. You can weild any weapon you like, use any sub job you like, and wear any gear you like... if you play solo.

[Eji Kazuma]

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?

My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

[Timian]

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?

My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

It's all about effeciency.
Your WAR/RNG might have put out nice numbers,
but pulling hate through massive damage with no way
to migate damage makes you an MP sponge.
Also, did you actually try to parse your WAR/RNG against
a properly geared WAR/NIN? No idea what level you're referring to,
but for the most part, I'm pretty sure you'd be left behind.

"Trying to be the best they can be" sometimes means
doing what has been proven to work.

[Lmnop]

actually, he's talking about a prime level range for war/rng. A decently geared War/Rng is pretty sweet to behold. Particularly if you're using Holy Bolts. They're bad ass. Though If I were War/rng, I'd do it for one of 2 reasons: use a Great Axe and still open Distortion for a THF (as well as get hightened use out of debuff bolts) or save TP for Shield Break, so that it's cake for my bolts to hit which, again, would be debuff bolts and then Holy Bolts for the bulk of your damage.

I've heard of War/rng using Bow and if you have good enough R.Acc at the levels where the skill gaps aren't so great, the WAR's incredible STR rating just makes damage wonderful. War/sam is viable @40, methinks. It'll be as good as war/nin DD-wise, for sure. But I really don't feel like using this thread to bicker about using optimal/sub-optimal combos or whatever. I'd like to keep away from other SJs and any B or under weapons and so on. This is for war/sam so let's keep it that way.

Fact: On paper, War/Sam is at least as good as war/nin DD-Wise.
Fact: Without people to give it a chance, we'll never know for sure.

Someone gave Nin/Drk tanking a chance. Someone gave Tp-burn Kirin a chance. Things that seemed incredibly plausible on paper, and they said "let's try it!" So why hasn't war/sam been met the same way? Because 90% of WARs are fan boys. And Fan boys want to be cool and powerful and they don't want to find out that there's anything that could be as cool as them.

In that party, I parsed slightly under the BLU using Gawaine's Axe. Considering my parser had 2 fights of me not fighting (afk while they kept going) I think I'd be pretty close to even with him, and if I had done the Rune Chopper trick, I think I would've out-done him. My accuracy also lacks quite a bit, and colibri meant I was eating meat. While we both did roughly 80k damage over the course of the night, my DRG friend + Wyvern did a wonderful 100K damage. And I think he only ate one food the whole night.

The problem with War/sam: Seigan is too slow. I've mentioned before that the game is too fickle to attempt to activate 2 JAs back-to-back. Sometimes this works out wonderfully, and your bergressor animations overlap. Sometimes Lag kicks you in the groin and you have to wait for 'serk to completely end before you can begin aggressor. The same is for Seigan/Third Eye.

My normal Process: WS, get hate, still caught in WS animation and get hit. Get hit a 2nd time between activating Seigan and Third Eye. Mob is now attacking Tank again and I have Seigan up. So I go straight back to Hasso if it's up... and then get hate again. Alternatively, I simply pop Third Eye, anticipate a single hit, then get hit twice so it turns to the tank. There goes my chance for Counters and now i have a minute recast on Third Eye instead of 30 seconds.

I would like to see one of a few things happen: one that i've stated before is that I think activating Seigan should automatically use Third Eye, setting it's recast back to 30 seconds and doing both animations simultaneously. In the event that Third Eye is down still, it simply won't auto-fire. But maybe that's too difficult to implement. Alternatively, I'd like to see Seigan actually have it's own function. Has anyone noticed that as a stand-alone JA, it does absolutely nothing? I would like to see activating it give you it's own "Third Eye" effect that doesn't stack with Third Eye, yet is only guarenteed to anticipate one attack. Thus you'd activate Seigan for the first Anticipate (and just hope the mob doesn't Double Attack) and then use Third Eye to tank from there. This fix would be easier to implement, and would cover another concern of mine: I think Seigan should make you always dodge at least 2 attacks. In my experience, I only anticipate once around 30-40% of the time. That's altogether too much hitting being done to me.

All and all, I'd equate the Seigan/Third Eye combo with casting Utsusemi:Ichi -after- you get hate, except at least it's not interruptable. I want to get hit occasionally - Utsusemi is already broken enough, S-E isn't gonna give us another way to infinitely avoid damage. But it'd be nice if it could reliably cut the damage down to managable size.

I'll end this dreadfully long post on a high note:

when any DD starts a fight with TP in a tp-burn situation, they're wasting it if they hold it. But if they let loose, not even 6 shadows can save them, often enough. As a War/sam, I take those opportunities to use a break WS -- Shield, Armor, or even Full Break. If the mob just came in, there's a strong likelyhood that even a Break will pull hate, but it won't be for very long. a 500 dmg Steel Cyclone gets a bit more attention.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?

My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.
Most players aren't trying to be the best WAR/NIN they can be, let alone be the best WAR/RNG that they can be. It's hard to tell the difference between someone who's actually putting thought into making the most out of their sub, and someone who thinks they're a beautiful and unique snowflake.

[Karinya]

Maybe the MNK was confused because they double attacked with one hand and then kicked, making 4 total attacks that round. Granted, this would mean he'd have to be unable to tell his hand from his foot to make that mistake, but I've met players that dumb.

I bet I can guess how many non-DD spells that BLU cast. :p In some jobs it's really easy to tell who the stupid players are... of course, telling a war/anything they can't pull is a pretty big hint.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Maybe the MNK was confused because they double attacked with one hand and then kicked, making 4 total attacks that round. Granted, this would mean he'd have to be unable to tell his hand from his foot to make that mistake, but I've met players that dumb.
Well, double attacking with each fist might be rare, but it's not impossible. I've done H2H skill ups and seen double attack fire for each hand. It's not any more rare than, say, seeing 4 attacks as WAR/NIN without Joyeuse/Ridill/K. Club/etc.

[Karinya]

In that party, I parsed slightly under the BLU using Gawaine's Axe. Considering my parser had 2 fights of me not fighting (afk while they kept going) I think I'd be pretty close to even with him,
Depending on the parser you may be able to exclude specific fights and recalculate totals/averages based only on the selected fights, I think.
and if I had done the Rune Chopper trick, I think I would've out-done him. My accuracy also lacks quite a bit, and colibri meant I was eating meat. While we both did roughly 80k damage over the course of the night, my DRG friend + Wyvern did a wonderful 100K damage. And I think he only ate one food the whole night.
Also, you said you had Evoker's on most of the time - that probably means the BLU had the buffs most favorable to him, and you didn't. And if you were using break WS, some of the rest of the party's damage is actually from the def and eva down you are putting on the mob. (A BLU can do something similar with Enervation and Infrasonics, but I'm betting this one didn't bother...)

If your accuracy was lacking with an A+ weapon and Hasso (and possibly Shield/Full Break too), it would have been noticeably worse with an A- weapon and no acc abilities/traits other than Aggressor. Damn high eva mobs that steal your food, anyway.

Was the DRG /SAM too? On a mob that wasn't weak to any particular damage type DRG probably would have been in the same ballpark with the other two - although, like you, he probably wasn't getting the most beneficial combination of buffs.

Were all three DDs the same level?
The problem with War/sam: Seigan is too slow.
Great, I can look forward to that with DRG/SAM too.

You could always activate Seigan+3E before you WS, but then you lose the ACC and STR of Hasso. Might be a worthwhile tradeoff in some situations though, like a NIN tank you KNOW is going to lose hate and take a while to get it back.

[Ziero]

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?
My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

See this is the problem. You are not trying to be the best you can be if you refuse to use axes on War. Even while lvling Drk I found that Gaxe outperforms Gsword in terms of DoT and WS dmg because at lower lvls Gswords are just not that good. But -40 evasion and a two fold critical attack beat everything Gsword can offer for a good long time. And on top of that, as a War, you don't even have access to one of the strongest Gsword WS, Spinning Slash. You are trying to have fun while you play, and you find Gswords more fun. But you are not trying to be the 'best' you can be because Gaxes are MUCH stronger.

On top of that, as a War, the best ones lvl ALL their options. Axe, Gaxe, Sword, Gsword, Polearm, Scythe, Nin sub, Rng sub, Thf sub, Sam sub and hell even Mnk sub. The best have most, if not all, of those lvled to a point where they're effectively useful. If you want to play using a different weapon and ignoring your main ones, that's fine and all. Though you can not say you're trying to be your best when you deliberately ignore your best weapons and alternative sub choices.

As for War/Sam, I'm going to attempt to join my next pt on war as just that. Sadly I'm still 59 with about 8k tnl so it might be tough. But I would much rather ding 60 and be able to start busting out some Meditated Raging Rush goodness. Plus it's much harder to keep Gaxe skilled then it is to keep axe capped, so any excuse to lvl with my Gaxe is a good one imo.

[Celeal]

The problem with War/sam: Seigan is too slow.
Maybe Utesumi is too godly XD

However, Seigan + Third Eye is great for setting up SATA.

At least Seigan has good chances for counter-attack, Utesumi cannot.

IMHO, /NIN with both Ichi + Ni shadows are the best for bouncing hate. For Ichi only (without Ni), for the 1st five/six shadow is great, but beyond that, I think Seigan + Third Eye is better.

Unless I am wrong, AoE magic does not destroy Seigan + Third Eye (unlike blink or shadows).

[Lmnop]

Irritatingly, Third Eye has 0 effectiveness against magic. It isn't removed, but you'll never Anticipate a Quake or a Whirl of Rage.

Utsu is too godly, but I think Seigan/Third Eye should at least have some use. I seriously take 3-600 damage every time I pull hate. By the time my protection buffs are up, I no longer have hate. Sometimes it feels like a waste of time. I've done a lot of S/3E before WS, but +10 acc really does suck to lose. Still, if Bergressor's up, I can bear the loss easily. I think it's just bad luck more than lacking of stats, but I never pull hate when I WS like that. I just go -.-

the BLU was 73, I didn't watch him much but I never saw him tossing debuffs. I didn't even see a single Head Butt fly. I have a feeling he normally would, but since he wanted to "lol" at the war/sam, he set himself up to make sure he wasn't embarassed. Drg (/war, btw) and I were both 72. Actually, he used Magic Fruit (I think? The bigger of the 2 single-target games) once on someone in red HP.

[Ziero]

Well I dinged 60 the other night and then tried to get a pt as War/Sam, but I was sadly asked to sub nin. Though I'm glad I did because we were fighting Puks with only a rdm healer and the shadows really helped out when they used their AoE. Still 60 now with my Gaxe at 184 so I haven't yet had the chance to try Raging Rush, but I'll make sure to get it by the end of the week to make full use of that /sam sub. Though something tells me that even after getting Raging Rush, I'll still end up /nin in pts. =/

[Karinya]

Well, if he wants to prove the superiority of his job combo by testing against someone lower level than him, I'm laughing at him before the test even starts. The most he'll manage to prove is that a level 73 DD does more damage than a level 72. (And by neglecting his support/enfeeble spells he probably cost the party a fair bit of exp to prove that.)

He shouldn't feel *too* bad about being destroyed in damage by a DRG lower level than he was, though, because of piercing weakness.


In any case, it sounds like S/3E *does* have some use, but it also has some cost. If you want it to cover you while you have hate for a brief amount of time, you have to establish it before pulling hate, which means giving up Hasso for a while. Well, IMO, that's just why SE made Hasso and Seigan mutually exclusive. You can have more damage, or better defense, but not both at once. If there are timing problems relating to trying to WS and switch stances at the same time, I don't think that's necessarily bad.

Both stances are still useful; the question of whether and when to switch just depends on how you expect hate dynamics to work in your current party. Allowing the full damage of Hasso with the safety of Seigan even in parties where the tank can't hold hate through your WS would destroy the value of a higher-hate tank who *can* hold it (in situations where such a tank might possibly exist, which admittedly doesn't include mobs that are no harder than a T but rated VT).


Everyone else has to trade off offense vs. defense (in the general sense, not just the DEF stat) except for ninjas; that doesn't mean everyone else should be immune to those tradeoffs - it means ninjas *shouldn't* be. To be balanced, Utsusemi should be as much of a defensive stance as Seigan is, or even as much as Defender is (since it offers better protection even than Defender in many situations), with accompanying restrictions in your offensive power while you have it on. The fact that SE hasn't realized this yet or taken action to implement it continues to baffle me - surely they wouldn't *deliberately* unbalance their own game? - but maybe they're still working on how to fix it properly. They do work a bit slowly sometimes. :)


P.S. Whirl of Rage isn't magic. It's a physical AOE reduced by defense.

[Vyuru]

I've got a question for you Lmnop.

Now I've only recently hit lvl 35 sam and have only played around with Seigan a little bit, but most times when I know that I am going to pull hate with a WS, I can normally WS, hit my Seigan macro about 1/2-2/3 of the way through my WS animation to get off Seigan right off, immediatly followed by Third Eye.

At worst, so far the mob has only been able to hit me once while doing this, it really depends on the mob's delay and when he had last attacked though.

But are you trying to do this and getting your character caught up in the animation, is that what you mean? Just a wee bit confused.


And to be perfectly honest, if I was that Blue mage I'd be tossing out a Headbutt or some other stunning/paralyzing/serious Flashy blinding move so that you could get off Seigan/Third Eye without being hit. Bad player on his part.

[Malacite]

Actually, AoE (at least physical attacks) can and does remove third eye.

Without fail, whenever fighting those stupid puks in Wajaom on my SAM with Third Eye up I'd have it stripped from me by those AoE attacks.

[Celeal]

IMHO, WAR/SAM and WAR/NIN are different animal. If we force WAR/SAM to act like as a WAR/NIN, I believe it would be suck. Seriously, in a party setting that shadows are valuable, it makes a lot of sense to use WAR/NIN. What I think WAR/SAM's unique point is great control over TP-gain and Great-Axe Break-WS.

[Lmnop]

Can't agree more with what Celeal said. The one thing that is essential to remember (and that my naysayers didn't notice, despite the fact that I frequently mentioned to them that I had played and understood war/nin ) is that war/nin is still incredibly valuable. When you're fighting things that put your tank in a lot of danger, or your crowd control is risking, it's usually a safer bet to /nin.

Vyuru, I think you got it, though apparently you're better (or your connection is better). When I weapon skill, I'm locked in the animation. Let's say I'm doing Steel Cyclone. The moment I start swinging my GA over my head, I get hate because the server already knows if I did enough damage or not. Ideally, i'd time WSs to right after the mob swings, but I don't pay enough attention, typically. So now I have hate, the mob will swing in about 1.5 seconds, and I have over a second of WS animation yet, let alone the 1 second freeze it'll impose on me after the animation ends. I get hit once before I can activate Seigan, and since I usually can't start another JA 'til the first ends no matter how I mash, I get hit again before Third Eye is up. It's probably worthy of note that I'd get hit much less if the mob was slowed, but enfeebles are far from reliable in melee parties.

Ziero, I think the only AoE puks use is the knockback one (does no damage) and Obfuscate (Flash -- also no damage). In fact, I did a puk party where I asked if I could sub sam and they said i'd need /nin for pulling. It turned out it was slowing us down. If I stopped swinging mid-fight for utsusemi, I'd be losing DPS but more importantly, the damn dragon would just AoE it off again. If I waited 'til after the fight, I wasn't pulling fast enough. In this situation, I think I would've been better off just popping seigan/3e and pulling. JAs may still take time, but I can do them while moving.

Karinya, I think it's brilliant that they made offense and defense effectively toggles. The problem is, the greatest advantage to /sam is tp gain. And the fact that I can't use Seigan while i'm WSsing sucks. Reducing me to use Seigan for Weapon Skill only makes /nin unnecessarily better.

I know that 3E is effective against AoE (in some instances that I cannot remember, better), thanks for pointing out the Whirl of Rage thing. Does anyone know if you can Anticipate it? If so, I'm taking my DRG friend to Sky.

For anyone defending the Monk about getting Kick Attacks or whatnot: 75 levels of the job with -the least to do- should be enough to see yourself occasionally hitting 3 times. Anyone who thinks 2A kicks in on both hands w/out fail after all this time [B]is a retard. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

[Malacite]

Actinic Burst

Actinic Burst is a move used in Sea. I can't remember the name for the Puk's AoE Flash move (Obsficulate or something @- @)

As for whirl of rage, I'm pretty sure you can anticipate it. I remember blocking a few while leveling out in Sauromague.

[Lmnop]

Fixed. Also, Crosswind is a cone attack that does wind damage. So technically, they do have damaging AoE, but at least it's somewhat avoidable.

[Karinya]

Karinya, I think it's brilliant that they made offense and defense effectively toggles. The problem is, the greatest advantage to /sam is tp gain. And the fact that I can't use Seigan while i'm WSsing sucks. Reducing me to use Seigan for Weapon Skill only makes /nin unnecessarily better.
Well, I think the value of tanking has been destroyed enough in the last year, I don't want to see it destroyed further by reducing what little disadvantage there is to a DD stealing hate.

Admittedly, the *main* factor in destroying tanking has been the huge amounts of experience from destroying very weak mobs, against which tanking is both unnecessary and impossible, but I think forcing people to accept some vulnerability for maximum damage potential might give more value to a tank that can hold better hate *off* Mr. Suicidal; and I see no good reason to exempt a WAR/SAM from that principle.

I haven't given up hope that SE might still balance Utsusemi somehow, therefore I don't want to see everything else become equally godlike; it would just lead to worse balance problems once Utsusemi is fixed. So I'm willing to tolerate WAR/SAM being significantly more vulnerable rather than seeing Seigan become the *next* way to avoid all damage with no tank in the party. WAR/SAM's superior damage and the way it can support the party with break WS seem adequate compensation for the slight increase in vulnerability, anyway.

[Vyuru]

Also, Crosswind is a cone attack that does wind damage.

Are you sure about that? I stand beside/slightly behind or directly behind the mob so that I don't get a misplaced TA from a thf, or get hit by a frontal AoE like Poison Breath and it seems Crosswind always hit me anyway, although I think I have parried/evaded it before.

I haven't given up hope that SE might still balance Utsusemi somehow

It might be interesting if they made the spell casting mobs a little bit smarter. Like if they see you cast Utsusemi then they will cast some low lvl fast casting AoE like Diaga/Poisonga to wipe your shadows.

Not the best idea since ninja tanking would become a pain, but maybe ninja would move into the DD role and we'd get blue mage tanks with Cocoon! :D

[Lmnop]

actually, I'm convinced a lot of mobs -are- utsus-smart. You pull a gob whm, for instance, and you recast shadows when you get back to camp. He sees it and casts diaga. Maybe that's not a good example since he could've just really wanted to do it. But a better example is tanking raptors. I can't start to count the number of times that they timed their WSs to right when I was trying to recast Ichi. Since they have 2 or 3 physical damage type WSs (capable of interrupting) and always have tp, it just felt like they were waiting for their chance to interrupt. At any rate, not something I'll be able to prove but I think a lot of mobs have some counter-intel.

As I was mentioning before, war/nin is superior in any party layout with high risk of adds and insufficient crowd control ability. This is because a war/nin can hold a linked mob for the 45 seconds 'til the Corsair can Dark Shot again, for instance.

War/sam simply cannot hold mobs as well. The fact that I only anticipate once (all too often) already states my defense inferiority compared to /nin. I'm not guaranteed 6-9 shadows, I'm guaranteed one anticipate. The fact that mobs love to retaliate with WSs sucks enough (in Kuftal Tunnel, I took 3k damage over the course of 3 fights, because I'd WS, get hate, get Hammer Beaked, and the PLD would have hate before I could activate Seigan) without thinking about the brevity of my paper defense.

And yeah, that Kuftal party was my 1st experience with Seigan, it certainly had me doing S/3E before WS.

[TehTyr]

The only way you could 'fix' /nin from being far too powerful, is to cripple Utsusemi as a sub. A solo ninja should not have to feel the brunt of a change because every tom dick and harry subs nin.

A few things I dream of reading next patch:

Utsusemi - Now acts in exactly the same way as the spell Blink.

Ninja - Recast time has been lengthend for all Ninjitsu spells.

Ninja - New Job trait at level 10; Ninjitsu master. Reduces the casting time of Ninjitsu. This trait can not be obtained with Ninja as a sub-job.

>=D

Also, as far as hate goes - isn't this what a PLD is for? Is Cover useless except for THF? Rampart?

[raidenn]

Yeah shadows are too strong, 3rd eye doesnt hold up a lot but at least it cannot be interrupted.

[Karinya]

IMO, monsters should have a chance of hitting through shadows (the way they can hit through blink) dependent on their level compared to the ninjutsu skill of the player. This should be set at a level where exp mobs will rarely hit through a full NIN's shadows (and since bypassing the shadows won't remove them you still have time to receive a heal before being hit again unless you are very unlucky indeed), HNMs occasionally but not so much ninjas are useless for tanking them; but for /NIN getting hit through shadows should be a frequent concern and keep subbed utsusemi from being practically the same as Perfect Dodge.

[TehTyr]

It would also be good if Utsusemi also relied on your Ninjitsu for it's strength.

A Ninja with capped Ninjitsu should have full benefits from Utsusemi, however a war/nin should have gimped Shadows, handy in some situations, but utterly useless as a main stay of tanking.

The removal of /nin as a powerful sub would also mean more diverse DD's in exp parties.

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that I got from 55 to 61 as WAR/MNK, gax'ing all the way. In most cases, we only had a RDM healer. In most cases, I was out damaging other jobs, until we hit the crawlers and I forgot accuracy food. -_-
(The extra HP from HP Boost took care of any hate.)

[nanatsu]

The removal of /nin as a powerful sub would also mean more diverse DD's in exp parties.

Not really. Next step down is either /war or /thf and that's all you would ever see. I wouldn't necessarily call that diverse, as those are still pretty standard now anyway.

[TehTyr]

Not really. Next step down is either /war or /thf and that's all you would ever see. I wouldn't necessarily call that diverse, as those are still pretty standard now anyway.

I'm not talking about subs, as I am more talking about mains.

You see -alot- of war/nin's, simply because they can deal damage, keep hate, and negate damage. If /nin was no longer "zomg", you would start seeing a more diverse range of jobs in exp parties, which can only be a good thing.

[Caspian]

I'm not talking about subs, as I am more talking about mains.
You see -alot- of war/nin's, simply because they can deal damage, keep hate, and negate damage. If /nin was no longer "zomg", you would start seeing a more diverse range of jobs in exp parties, which can only be a good thing.

Actually, more than likely, they'd just migrate to another sub and everyone would be useing that sub all the time.

[TehTyr]

Actually, more than likely, they'd just migrate to another sub and everyone would be useing that sub all the time.

...

I'm not talking about subs, as I am more talking about mains.

As far as subs go though, there are 5 different subs excluding /nin for WAR that can and have worked.

[Lmnop]

battle of semantics? Let's see if I can help (likely not).

If you have a party consisting of: Rdm, Brd, War, Nin and you're one of them. The other 3 people want you to invite 2 more WARs or maybe MNKs. They do not want a Dragoon, or a Dark Knight, or a Blue Mage, or any of those.

People know shadows are easy, and they don't want jobs without shadows.

What TehTyr is saying is that by destroying everyone's reliance on /nin, you increase the amount of parties with jobs that don't function as well with /nin.

This goes back to the classic debate about how Wars get an offensive and defensive boost from /nin, while DRGs or DRKs* only get a defensive boost. In addition, you could rationalize that they're technically losing offense because they're not longer subbing War to get the benefits that Wars enjoy naturally.

Obviously, /sam is supposed to fill that niche, being that it gives a wonderful defensive edge as well as an offensive boost that rivals /War. The problem is: no one believes in it.

As for Utsu nerfing: I feel that NIN mains should have ~5% chance of getting hit through shadows, but no more. This is mainly because Paladins can get crit'd, while NINs blink would-be crit hits. I don't really want to see /nin nerfed, as I truely enjoy the concept of thf/nin as tank for certain scenarios. It's also the last bastion of WAR tanking which, if you know anything about me, you know I'm not quite willing to let go.

However, I think a nerf like that truely would be best for the game. Particularly if it's implemented along with means of making War tanking viable -- w/out the answer being 2 wars bouncing hate.

I have a RDM "friend" who I recently asked if he wanted to come main heal for our merit party. Layout at the time was War War Brd Blu. He immediately turned it down because there was a BLU in it. He doesn't mind main healing, as he does it all the time. But the BLU wasn't a Mnk, a War, or a Nin.

I don't know how else to stress this to any of you, so here comes a mess of my mind: the vast majority of the people who are in positions to make things known to the masses remain close-minded. The core 5 jobs of the game continue to shun the other 13. Since those 13 aren't getting invited to the "dream team" parties, they continually lose their chance to prove what they can do or to show off new tricks. Those 13 thus dwindle in population as the majority of the people who decide to level those jobs have never explored deeply enough into the game to understand where it stands now. That sort of understanding is required to show that your job can do something that people aren't aware of. This is basic: a DD-only Blue mage, an overturtling Paladin, a Dark Knight with perpetually full mp. A THF that TPs and SAs and WSs all in the same gear. You get the drift? It's the common incompetence that gives these classes bad names, and not enough creative drive existing in those jobs.

I think it no coincidence that the people proving acc formula and finding mob stats all have Mnk or War or Nin (or all 3) at 75.

*yes, I know Drk can dual wield axes. But at that point, their /nin is only adding enough offense to nullify what they lose from swapping off their scythes.

[Karinya]

What TehTyr is saying is that by destroying everyone's reliance on /nin, you increase the amount of parties with jobs that don't function as well with /nin.
This goes back to the classic debate about how Wars get an offensive and defensive boost from /nin, while DRGs or DRKs* only get a defensive boost.
They *do* get an offensive boost from /nin, but it's not necessarily greater than the offensive boost they could have gotten from /sam or /thf. But when you get about-as-good offense and OMGWTF better defense, few people are going to pass that up.

Additionally, by destroying everyone's reliance on /nin, you bring tanking back into the game. Without such reliable utsusemi, it would actually be dangerous for some jobs to exceed the tank's hate - which brings back the value of tanks which can hold hate better, and THF and /THF to raise their hate limits even higher.
In addition, you could rationalize that they're technically losing offense because they're not longer subbing War to get the benefits that Wars enjoy naturally.
Obviously, /sam is supposed to fill that niche, being that it gives a wonderful defensive edge as well as an offensive boost that rivals /War. The problem is: no one believes in it.
Well, I do, but on DRG, which is stuck with a 2h weapon whether we want it or not (and doesn't have any magic to hose the way DRK does; btw, why is it that Hasso and Seigan make you bad at spellcasting, but you can *go berserk* and have no penalty? +50% to all spell casting times and recasts while Berserk would shake up a few tactics, I bet. :) ) The defense isn't that great, but who cares, I have high and super jumps. Hasso really is excellent, though, the acc combined with acc bonus trait (and some gear, of course) keeps me at a good hit rate with meat on almost every mob and 10% haste in no equip slots is beautiful.
As for Utsu nerfing: I feel that NIN mains should have ~5% chance of getting hit through shadows, but no more. This is mainly because Paladins can get crit'd, while NINs blink would-be crit hits.
PLD can block a crit, but yeah. I think that sounds about right for exp mobs, maybe going up to 10% on hnm (some hnm are so helpless against blink it's just outrageous).
I don't really want to see /nin nerfed, as I truely enjoy the concept of thf/nin as tank for certain scenarios. It's also the last bastion of WAR tanking which, if you know anything about me, you know I'm not quite willing to let go.
I think WAR can tank well without /NIN. But most players don't have the right gear, tactics or even party formation to make it work effectively, because it's too easy - and effective - to just wear all attack gear and spam utsusemi.
However, I think a nerf like that truely would be best for the game. Particularly if it's implemented along with means of making War tanking viable -- w/out the answer being 2 wars bouncing hate.
Offense and defense used to be a tradeoff. They should be again. Which is why my *other* idea for Utsusemi is to have the user's attacks slowed 5% for each shadow that is active... Magic recasts wouldn't be affected so a ninja could still keep shadows up the same way they do now, and there'd be no effect on kiting by either NIN or X/NIN, but the DD-and-tank-at-the-same-time idea would take a major hit. Which is the whole point, of course. Blink tanking is a neat idea, but having the same party member be 100% of a DD and 100% of a tank is just too good. Nothing else can possibly be balanced while that is allowed. It's like having a 7 member party, without the exp reduction.


A WAR who is willing to gear and eat for defense can have a lot of defense - about as much as a PLD for WAR/MNK, or more if he goes /BLU - dealing better damage and probably holding hate at least as well (they have better tanking AF for one thing). There's just one catch - you need more healers to split the curing. In a time when BLU don't even set up the healing spells they have until you beat them over the head 47 times, it's hard to find a party willing to make this adjustment outside a static.

I think WAR could stand to get some more tanking-oriented traits or abilities - that aren't designed to work with /NIN. E.g.:

Revenge (trait): Whenever you are damaged by a physical attack, you gain attack power until your next attack (like a free Boost, only probably a bigger effect).

This would allow you to recoup some of the damage lost by using tanking armor and food, putting your damage further ahead of PLD to compensate for the extra healing needed. Gaining more TP when an enemy hits you would be an interesting idea toward the same goal too.

Obviously these should be given only after level 38 - the whole point is to improve WAR in comparison to other tanks, who are usually /WAR anyway.
I have a RDM "friend" who I recently asked if he wanted to come main heal for our merit party. Layout at the time was War War Brd Blu. He immediately turned it down because there was a BLU in it. He doesn't mind main healing, as he does it all the time. But the BLU wasn't a Mnk, a War, or a Nin.
With friends like those, who needs total strangers?

[Lmnop]

Here, let me point out why we have all these threads on imbalance:

But most players don't have the right gear, tactics or even party formation to make it work effectively

Everything that's wrong with the universe.

And yeah, my RDM friend is a friend because he's nice to me, and he's a good guy. Everyone's with their faults, and his is a glaring misunderstanding of how the game works. I feel like /blist'ing him every time he talks about FFXI mechanics or any time any particular job comes up, so I just don't talk to him about that crap.

[Celeal]

Nah~ fix the mobs in ToAU, that will fix it all... cannot really blame the players, it is logical to use the most suitable tools to achieve the goal. In this case, /nin in exp parties...

*me go to play 9Dragons until FFXI next expansion releases~

Peace.

[Lmnop]

melee burns in sky were pretty much the best exp pre-AU too. KRT really wasn't any different, though at least skeletons make shadows useless. And my first Tp burn party was @60ish in Ule[tab key] on raptors. They were already getting popular before AU came out. My sister's BRD went from 55-75 mostly on them. That was all before AU.

AU just made it accessible to everyone instead of the first 2 parties in the zone. And they made mobs that encouraged the (lack of) tactics. I'm looking at you, Amnesia.

Sorry guys, bored at work so I'm back-to-back posting.

[Celeal]

And the Cobrils (spelling*) reflect on BLMs's black magic too... sigh. Maybe BLM should BLM/NIN and join the club too *joke*